GM introduced a family sedan that got 80 mpg average in 2000..

[Fumesucker]

We don't really need new technology, the technology exists already to make a highly efficient family sedan..

What we need is the *will* to do this.



http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/gmprecept.html

The hybrid-electric Precept is driven by a battery-powered electric traction system that moves the front wheels, and a lightweight, 1.3-liter, 3-cylinder diesel engine in the rear. The direct-injection engine, featuring turbocharged compression ignition, was developed by Isuzu Motor Co. Ltd., one of GM's Asian affiliates.

GM has developed the electric motor to run off either a nickel metal hydride battery, like the kind used in the new version of its EV1 electric car, or a lithium polymer battery. The electric traction system also captures energy from braking and sends it back to the battery.

Designers of the Precept took their overall design cues from the EV1 and constructed the car to be as aerodynamic as possible. Exterior door handles have been eliminated, and outside mirrors were replaced by a camera system. Because front-facing grills create wind drag, the Precept has special air
openings behind the rear wheels.

[Kalyke]

1. How much did it cost?

Bill Ford, the CEO of Ford Motor Co., wanted to concentrate on building eco-friendly automobiles during his reign, but was thwarted by both the board and consumers who would not purchase the higher-priced eco-cars and/or simply didn't want them, opting for trucks and SUVs instead.

I wish I could find the article online, but I have been searching for it for days, but, while there is a mention of it on the website, there is no link to the article.

The article points to the fact that NONE of the car companies (foreign cars, included) are really in this for the environment or for helping us ween ourselves off oil. They're in it for the dollars. And, despite Bill Ford's desires to become eco-friendly, the American public refused to do so, either because of excess (just gotta have those BIG, BIG, BIG cars) or because of economy (hybrids are more expensive).

[Fumesucker]

5. It was expensive...

I'm not sure that an actual price was ever disclosed.

High power electric motors and the control electronics for them have dropped a great deal in price in the last ten years or so, I've been flying electric powered RC airplanes for nearly fifteen years and the technology has advanced by leaps and bounds in that time while prices have dropped precipitously.

When I started flying electric, other than a single manufacturer of brushed motors, Astro Flight, you had to "roll your own", now packaged power systems are available on ebay..

[Ian David]

15. Can you build a battery-powered remote-control dirigible...

... that can carry aloft a small MP3 player and/or FM receiver and a decent set of loudspeakers, and possibly some solar panels?

I think that would be a lot of fun at protests.

You'd have a sound system that's out-of-reach of the authorities, unless they wanted to try and shoot it down.

[Fumesucker]

16. Dirigibles are hard to control in any kind of wind...

Yes it could be done for probably under $1,000.

In very calm conditions it could be done..

The operator would have to be somewhat covert, I could modify an RC transmitter so the control were in my pockets and make it very hard to tell that I was the person operating it.

That's actually a very good idea..

[Ian David]

23. It could also be outfitted with a digital camera or wireless webcam.

Or perhaps use it to carry aloft a pirate radio station.

Another idea: Keep it tethered, and only use the motor for minor adjustments, or for "emergency recovery" if the operator is forced to cut it loose.

[Fumesucker]

27. After the first time you use it the authorities would probably arrange to jam the radio signal..

But there are infrared remote control setups that could be used and are basically almost unjammable.

Skycam RC planes for aerial photography are pretty common now, I built one with a 35mm camera about a dozen years ago, it worked pretty well.

[Ian David]

28. Have you seen the Draganfly?

www.draganfly.com

[Fumesucker]

31. Yes but it would be dangerous to fly one over a crowd...

Those exposed propellers would be very dangerous..

I would use ducted fans on a blimp, in order that there be no danger from the thrust mechanisms.

[merh]

40. wow, I'd love to have one of those

would you be interested in building one to sell or know of any out there for sale?

that would be cool to have

[Fumesucker]

44. Yeah, I could build you one...

It would take some practice to learn to fly..

Flying RC is actually harder than flying the real thing, your orientation to the model is constantly changing and you have to tune your reflexes to compensate for that, if you have to think about what you're doing you aren't going to be fast enough and will lose control very rapidly. When the model is going away from you left is left and right is right, when it's coming toward you all the controls are reversed..

The easiest way to learn is with a flight simulator, I learned that way and nobody at the field when I first flew an actual RC plane would believe me that I hadn't ever flown one before. The simulator lets you get enough "stick time" to tune your reflexes without having to constantly worry about re-kitting the model (jocular term for crashing).

Send me a PM and we can discuss it more if you're interested.

[merh]

48. I will send you a pmail

thanks - that would be so cool - I'm willing to learn to fly a simulator and a RC plane.

thank you

[alfredo]

29. I use kites. A flat kite is the perfect canvas for a simple message.

A Della Porta kite would be perfect. They are easy to build, and easy to fly. They are usually 3X2' but that can be adjusted to suit your needs and materials. You can also be at a reasonable distance from where your message will be displayed.




I love the loop tail and taller design than the standard 3X2, But it needs to suit the message.

[Fumesucker]

33. I've done kites before, they are cool...

But the operator is obvious and would be quickly eliminated by the authorities at a protest.

[Ian David]

34. I'm terrible at flying kites. n/t

[alfredo]

53. If kites are illegal or are flown in a dangerous place, there shouldn't be

a problem. The nice thing abiut a kite, they move and our eyes are drawn to movement. In our area, the protests are in parks. Who is going to keep a person from flying a kite in a park?

Years ago I made a kite for an Irish friend of mine. It was in the colors of the Irish flag. We flew it near the route the the Queen was to take from the airport to where she was staying. This was when there were still fighting in Northern Ireland.

[BeatleBoot]

2. The *will* is already there to make them

otherwise GM wouldn't have spent millions on R&D for it.

What we need is the *demand* to make it worth re-tooling everything so GM can make enough of these and remain profitable.

[Fumesucker]

7. Build it and they will come..

It's a chicken or egg problem..

The Prius shows that the car buying public is interested in well designed and engineered hybrid vehicles.

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. Which came first? The chicken or the egg? The dinosaurs proved the egg

came first in more ways than one.

[Fumesucker]

12. Yes I know that...

And the egg predated the dinosaurs by quite a few hundred million years.

[Ichingcarpenter]

17. The egg evolved as can the auto industries otherwise

it will face extinction. I'm hoping that the dinosaur auto industry
can evolve into birds. The economic meteorite has already landed with a giant impact.
I don't see the big three surviving in the mode that they have before as giant dinosaurs.

[uncle ray]

22. slight correction.

The Prius shows that the car buying public is interested in well designed and engineered hybrid vehicles that are affordable.

the concept car as described would probably be well over 40 grand. there just isn't much of a market for cars that cost a lot that get good mileage. very few people would buy them, meaning the environmental benefit would not be very great. the effort would be much better spent increasing the efficiency of the least efficient vehicles. increasing the mileage of every truck made by only 1 mpg would save millions more gallons of gas than an expensive niche market car that maybe 10,000 people a year will buy. we need to work to increase the average fuel economy first. the "first" mpg gained is much cheaper and easier to gain than the "last" one.

[Fumesucker]

30. I know that about improving the least efficient vehicles..

But the same technologies can be applied to trucks and RVs too..

Just a big front air dam on a pickup can boost mileage by ten percent or so, you can get even more improvement by making a boattail shaped rear camper..

There are actually more improvements in aerodynamic efficiency to be found on the rear of a vehicle than the front..

[Ichingcarpenter]

38. Right now the big 3 styling is to make a massive, intimating air dam chrome grill

monsters that look aggressive and macho especially with trucks and suvs.

The SSR has a nice aerodynamic look with retro syling taken from the 30s and 40s
but is totally impractical with two seats, a small bed and terrible gas mileage.


The drag coefficient in automotive design could be improved considerably which
would help MPG.


The Hummer II, for example has a 26.3 Drag coefficient vs a 6.2 for a Toyota Prius.

General Motors designed one of the best drag coefficient consumer cars ever made
in the Opel Calibra until it was overtaken by the Honda insight which came along 10 years later.

[amandabeech]

52. They're popular here in the DC area, particularly in Virginia,

because you can use the HOV2 lanes with only one person in the car with the Prius or something getting similar mileage.

Now that gasoline is in the $2 range, I would expect that sales will not grow as fast as had anticipated. I've heard a lot of people don't like the styling so once the economic need for the fuel efficiency goes down, even for a few months, I expect that demand will tail off.

[Nay]

39. The problem is that if they are going to charge $48,000 for an electric

vehicle, few people can afford it, even if they want to support the idea. For example, I have a 1995 Lexus that gets 23 city and 33 hiway mpg. It runs like a top, is spacious and comfy, and because I have a very short distance to get to work (10 mi) and grocery store etc.(3 mi), it makes absolutely no financial sense for me to get ANY new car, never mind an expensive electric or hybrid. $48,000 buys a HELL of a lot of gas, folks! And as people fall deeper into the financial black hole the pubs have thrown us into, it will make less and less sense for ANY consumer to buy ANY new big-ticket item. Why would you spend $48,000 when you could buy a used fuel efficient car for $5,000? It makes no sense even in good times (although ppl did buy because they wanted to), and it makes even less sense now. So demand will not be there, IMHO.

[Fumesucker]

45. I'm building an electric assisted recumbent bicycle right now..

I have a post about it on this thread if you're at all interested..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=324x1900

I should have a bit over $1000 in it when done, including the cost of the bike originally. The batteries are the single largest cost still. Should give my near sixty year old bod the capability of outperforming Lance Armstrong at least twice over with the assist.

Electric bicycles are booming world wide right now and the technology is just starting to really take off..

The Optibike is probably the nicest electric bike out there right now, expensive but basically hand made.

http://www.optibike.com/

[BeatleBoot]

3. Self-Delete

the old "double post ghost" got me.

[TheWraith]

4. And how much did it cost to build one?

Probably a crapload of money. I'm all for electric vehicles but there's a BIG difference between concept prototype and a production model.

[Fumesucker]

6. Concept prototypes are by their very nature expensive..

There have been people building their own hybrids in their garages for at least a decade now though.

[ContinentalOp]

18. Garages? Hell, the Prius has been in production for over a decade! -nt-

[Fumesucker]

20. Damn, you get old and time flys by ...

Make that two decades or maybe even three.. I'd forgotten the Prius has been around that long..

[pinerow]

8. Let the 'car guys' build them...

get the accountants out of the car guys way...:fistbump:

[Fumesucker]

11. Not just the bean counters...

Get the suits in general out of the way.

A great many of our problems can be directly traced to our sick corporate culture..

[rucky]

24. Exactly.

Mechanical Engineers tend to value efficiency.

[fascisthunter]

10. Gas Mileage Has Stagnated for how many Years... The Technology Has been here for YEARS

I am of the opinion that automobile gas mileage standards are set low due to oil companies' invested interest in auto manufacturers.

I know mechanics and they all believe this to be true as well. They all know the technology exists.

Just watch the Movie, "Who Killed the Electric Car"

[SmileyRose]

13. I can't even find an electric mower that will cut the whole grass

and a good 3/4 of my back yard is food garden. I can't picture any electric car having much of a range. If they can give me a people mover with the capacity of a caravan or explorer, will hold up to freeway speed and get me from Georgia to Nevada and back without having me laid up at an odd time for 8-10 hours waiting for the batteries to charge, and they can do it for less than a 10% upcharge then I'm all over it.

[Fumesucker]

14. The car in my OP is not pure electric...

It is a turbodiesel hybrid, both ICE and electric.

The electric motor is used almost entirely just for acceleration, the diesel drives the car in cruise.

[ContinentalOp]

21. See, this is part of the problem. People have ridiculous and unnecessary expectations.

And create all sorts of make believe "requirements" that a car must fulfill. Georgia to Nevada and back? Now really. :eyes:
That's like all of the people who "need" to own 4wd SUVs because they went camping once five years ago and they may do it again someday.

[SmileyRose]

36. I make that drive every month.

and I drive the carpool for a total of 7 including me on a daily basis. My requirements are not unreasonable nor are they "make believe". regardless, my requirements of a car purchase don't have to be justified to anyone any more than my purchase of a home, or clothing or food and neither do anyone elses.

[ContinentalOp]

41. Sorry, but your requirement IS unreasonable.

Obviously an electric car doesn't suit your personal needs but you're in a tiny minority. The average driver goes something like 30 miles a day. Yet people perpetuate this myth that electric cars are impractical because of their range. It's very annoying.

[SmileyRose]

42. I never said it's impractical for everyone

I said in it's current form it's impractical for ME. But if they can meet my requirements I'd be all over it.

I don't disagree there is a viable market for short range electric cars. I only stated I am not one of them. Any meaning in my post of "make believe requirements" was put in my post by you, not by me.

[SoCalDem]

49. I love the people with HumVees who slow down to 2 mph to take a speed bump

on a neighborhood street..So much for rough & tough:)

[KittyWampus]

19. That is an awesome looking car. Don't usually car for cars looks- but that is striking!

[Fumesucker]

25. Most cars are "styled", this one was designed..

The Precept has a drag coefficient of 0.163, which is about half that of the average car and actually 20% less than the previous record holder for a production car, the EV1.

Aerodynamic drag is the major culprit in low gas mileage at highway cruise, cutting it in half probably boosts mileage by fifty percent or more.

[KittyWampus]

43. So the Precept's aerodynamic design yielded lovely style? Or at least my own aesthetic

is in synch with efficient design :)

[Fumesucker]

46. A bit of both I think...

I like the way it looks too..

Buckminster Fuller actually built an aerodynamic car too, the Dymaxion, it doesn't look quite as good though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_car

[KittyWampus]

51. that looks surprisingly like the old-fashioned metal recreational campers-trailers.

For instance, the Airstream (I think?)

[davsand]

26. If there are no exterior door handles how do you open the doors?

Seems to me you'd save a lot on gas if you couldn't get INTO the car to drive it anywhere.


:shrug:


I know my comment sounds pretty silly, but consider this--consumers have a discomfort with anything new anyway, and something as minor as the question of how to open the doors might be enough to make a buyer walk past the car on the sales lot.


Laura

[Fumesucker]

32. It's done all the time in the custom car business...

Shaving the handles.

You basically use an electric setup with a concealed button.

The handles can also be built into the rear edge of the door, with just a little cutout for your fingers right behind the handle.

[RichardRay]

35. How about 300 mpg for trips of 120 miles, up to 1,000 mpg for

shorter trips? Highway speeds of 85 mph. Three passengers plus luggage. Electric only for $25K, gas hybrid about $30K. Available in California only for now, but expanding soon (they say).


(video and other promo material presented there)

Aptera with rollcage highlighted:

[Fumesucker]

47. I've seen that, very interesting n/t

[RichardRay]

50. I emailed them and said that when they want to test in winter

conditions I'd be glad to try one out here in Wyoming. So far, no response :-).

[LWolf]

37. Put that car on the market at a competitive price,

and people will have the "will."

All people need is affordable access.

I don't know who can afford to buy a new car right now; nobody that I know. If I could afford to buy something, I'd pick up a late model used full-sized pickup as a 2nd vehicle, so that I could haul my horses, a winter's firewood, and the 8 - 10 tons of hay it takes to feed my horses for a year.

They're going cheap, but I, like everyone else, am low on resources.

Still, when the economy picks up, whether next year or in 5 years, if fuel efficient cars are affordable and accessible, we'll buy them.

[goforit]

54. This is why the employees at GM need to commit MUTANY and take over GM