I'm tired of hearing that Detroit only built crappy cars that no one bought.

[Atman]

I'm not a defender of GM or Ford. I owned a Ford Windstar which I literally had throw away after a few years because it was such a piece of crap. My GM S-10 truck was rugged, but it was heavy and sucked gas. We did buy our son a 2002 Saturn L200 which seems light years ahead of either the Windstar or the S-10 in terms of quality. We'll see how long it lasts, though. Now that I've made the disclaimers, on to my sub line...

It is disingenuous to say "no one wanted" or "no one bought" Detroit cars. That's crazy talk, often uttered by people whose last American car experience was a Chevy Monza or an AMC Pacer. To see who that "no one" is who isn't buying American cars, all one has to do is look out their car window next time they're out for a drive. You will have Fords, GM's and Chryslers in front of you, behind you, next to you. LOTS of people wanted them and bought them. LOTS of people bought other brands, too. Me among them.

But I think some people are really projecting with the whole "Crappy cars that no one wanted" meme. Even if you hate American cars, the fact is, millions and millions of people didn't hate them, wanted them, and bought them. In addition to millions of GMC trucks and construction equipment. Millions and millions of people bought them. The trouble wasn't the cars, per se, it was the HORRIBLE GM AND FORD MANAGEMENT. Their failure to push true innovation over gee-whiz gadgets like OnStar, which seems more like it was designed to help cash--flow by signing people up for monthly subscriptions, without really offering much to car owners, helped bring them to their knees.

Did GM and Ford really have 80mpg cars in 2000? Probably. And that's what I mean by poor management. The cars they WERE making may not have been you cup of tea,...which is why you purchased something different. But let's stop saying that "no one bought American cars." Just look around you.

Oh, btw...part of GM's financial trouble has nothing to do with their supposedly crappy cars...they also own DiTech, the cheesy online mortgage huckster of the Bush years. I wonder how that's working out for their bottom line? Again...more bad management, taking the eyes off their core business.

:hide:

.

[scarface2004]

1. i have a cobalt

it s very nice car...would buy it again.

[gristy]

8. I really like the cobalt too. I try to get one every time I rent.

Very comfortable and easy to drive.

[monktonman]

35. Thanks for buying a Cobalt

It really is a good little car.
I'll have a job tommorrow. thanks

[KansDem]

121. I'd buy a Cobalt, too...

But don't have the money right now. I do drive a 1965 Chevrolet. Not much to look at but it still runs...for now.

[EOTE]

133. Might get a Cobalt SS Supercharged as my next ride.

Very nice interior and amenities, plus a good deal cheaper than the Civic SI. And as the SS uses forced induction via a supercharger, it can be rather easy to get a bit more power to put it well ahead of the SI performance wise. It's more difficult and expensive to get any more power out of the SI as it's normally aspirated and tuned to get just about as much power as you can get from a 2 liter four cylinder. The Cobalt is a huge step above the Cavalier.

[CRF450]

146. They make a turbocharged Cobalt now.

Which is leaps and bounds better than the older supercharged SS models. Does 0-60 in about 5.5 seconds, and out handles a big number of other high performance cars.

[EOTE]

181. I saw that.

260 hp and similar torque. Pretty damn impressive for a 3000lb car. From what I've heard, it smokes the current WRX and has almost the same lap time as the previous BMW M Roadster on the Nurburgring. All that for around 22k. Sounds like a bargain to me. I'm still thinking of picking up an older supercharged model as I've seen them with low miles for around 12k. I currently drive a turbo, and while I love it for upgradability and mid-range torque, turbo-lag is still the bane of my existence. That's something you never need to worry about in a supercharged car.

[hogwyld]

147. That kind of thinking is why we're running out of oil

Supercharging wastes fuel. In the 21st century, we're ALL going to have to give up on our dreams of horsepower. If the American car companies call came out with 95 horsepower cars that got 50+ mpg, they would have no problems selling cars.

[CRF450]

154. High powered engines are way way more effecient than they were 30 years.

The new Corvettes have 6.2L v8's capable of 435hp, yet they can easily get 30mpg on the highway. The main problem is weight. My truck has a 4.7 v8 thats much less powerful at 235hp than the 5.7 350hp v8 in my 01 Trans Am. Yet the truck usually averages 16mpg, and the car averages 22-23mpg. The truck is bigger and heavier, and that makes the engine work harder. High horsepower does not always automatically mean "gas guzzler".

[EOTE]

182. Still gets about the same fuel economy as the Civic SI.

I guess you've got a big problem with that car too? Gets better fuel economy than the bulk of cars on the road.

[CRF450]

199. Not to mention, forced induction can make an egine more effecient.

Well... turbocharging is more effecient as theirs no drag put on the engine, but it helps the motor breath better. I'd like to get a twin turbo kit for my Trans Am some day, so far I like this kit. http://www.airpowersystems.com/fbody/tt.htm

[EOTE]

200. And there is something to be said for torque as well.

Something most Honda engines are sorely lacking.

[CRF450]

202. Most 4cyl. engines are like that.

I wouldn't own a car with a 4cyl engine anyways unless its a diesel.

[EOTE]

205. Or forced induction.

My lilliputian 1.8 liter four banger puts out nearly 300 lb/ft of max torque. I still average around 27mpg overall. Honda/Acura's larger 4 cylinders are pretty decent too. I recently drove a 2009 Accord with the 190hp 2.4 liter. It performed fairly well down low and really came to life at around 3500rpm and pulled smooth and hard until redline. Also, GM's latest four they use in the Colorado/Canyon is probably the first decent four cylinder ever put in a light pickup. It's basically just the inline 6 used in the Trailblazer with two cylinders lopped off.

[semillama]

130. I was impressed by the Cobalt I drove as a rental

I'd seriously consider buying one for my next car, but well, I drive a Toyota Corolla and intend to keep driving it until it falls apart, so that won't be for years now. Although we are currently a one-car family, and that could change depending on changing job circumstances a couple years down the line.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Detroit's financial model is based on selling Stupid Useless Vehicle

and right now nobody is buying them. The quality problems are legendary. They are also statistically valid. Japan continues to produce higher quality cars, 30 years after they started to kick Detroit's enormous bloated ass.

[Atman]

4. "They built crappy cars no one wanted."

Then how come so many of them are on the road? Did they force people to buy them?

.

[TankLV]

18. It's kinda like "Nobody goes there anymore because the place is always too crowded..."

[Warren Stupidity]

6. "and right now nobody is buying them"

please use what I said to argue against me, not what you think I ought to have said to make your argument easier.

[SmileyRose]

11. No longer true

Toyota and Honda's US quality ratings are currently statistically on par with Ford and GM's.

Toyota and Honda had a huge financial advantage in the very beginning for a variety of reasons and could put that into higher quality materials. But that financial advantage is quickly shrinking and right now if you put Tundra or Ridgeline up again F150 or Silverado the quality is similar - put Impala or Fusion up against Avalon the Fusion and Impala beat the crap out of Avalon - partly because the Avalon comes with more elecrical bells and whistles that can go wrong. Put Explorer or Trailblazer up against 4runner and it's pretty dang close. Put caravan up against oddessy and that's another neck and neck race.

There are other considerations for choosing one manufacturer over another - but quality is not actually a valid factor.

[FarCenter]

21. The parity is for quality at delivery, not reliability over the lifetime of the vehicle

The quality statistics are mainly the bogus JD Powers defects at delivery statistics.

The reliability of Detroit products after 10 years, 100,000 miles is much worse than Toyota or Honda's, especially for mid-size and small sedans.

[SmileyRose]

33. Cost of ownership.

I have a 1983 Chevy suburban. I still drive it from Georgia to Nevada and back every month. It's gotten a new engine and various replacements along the way. That was cheaper than buying a new vehicle. There is not a single squeak or rattle on that car and not one spot of rust. The engine gets pretty decent gas mileage for it's size - better than 20 on the freeway. My Fusion is a 2007 built and bought in 2006 and already has 60,000 miles. The only thing I've spent on it is basic normal maintenance - oil, tires, a set of wiper blades etc. I'm getting 30 - 35 freeway after 60,000 miles.

Brother's 1994 Camry did great until 2003. The injector had to be replaced and was so cost prohibitive it was more effective to buy a different car. I don't know about your neighborhood, but here, it's RARE to see a 15 yr old Toyota or Honda still on the road. It's common to see a 15+ yr Ford, GM or Dodge on the road - they have been rebuilt, retooled, repainted and loved over a time or two.

There is a reason for that.

[FarCenter]

40. A Suburban is not a car

It's a light truck.

And I think that generally, Detroit light trucks are as reliable as the Japanese makes. Although the body on the '85 Astro van that I had was crap. That and the fact that the engine stalled occasionally while it was moving, leaving it without power steering/brakes - which made my wife unwilling to drive it.

The relative scarcity of over 15 Hondas and Toyotas may reflect their smaller market share 20 years ago in your neighborhood. They are plentiful here.

[SmileyRose]

47. I had an 84 Escort before the Fusion - the Escort is still on the road

brakes, tires, wiper blades and a fuel pump is about it. No, that's not quite right, sorry, the owner before me had to have the driver's side window crank fixed while still under warrantee.

I've seen the teenagers around here buying up old civics and accords turning them into Video game cars. Most of the carnut boys around here are off market parts or european engines into the things because the Honda parts are too expensive.

[greguganus]

114. Proper maintenance is the key to long vehicle life.

I do have an advantage as I can/do all the maintenance on my vehicles, including engine rebuild. I do everything except work on transmissions. I hate taking removing/installing them.
My vehicles are:

1994 Geo Prism LSI (basically a Toyota Corolla with Toyota engine. Engine and body parts are the same).
272,000 miles and everything works on it including the AC.

2000 Chevy Silverado Pick-up. 2-wheel drive
174,000 miles and no problems.

1996 Cadillac Seville. Loaded, and everything works. Great driving car.
134,000 miles.

I have never seen an engine "wear out" with proper routine maintenance.
My previous cars were a 1972 Chevy Impala 4-door with over 200,000 miles on it. I gave it to a friend a couple of years ago and it's still his daily driver, and a 1982 Buick Cutlas that I wrecked with 150,000 miles on it.
Just my 2 cents.

[Atman]

177. I had a Chevy Nova/Toyota Corolla. Best cheap car ever.

Basically, the same as your Prism. That's actually illustrative of GM's bad management in terms of marketing...the GEO Prism? The Chevy Nova, which used to be a muscle car? WTF was this brand supposed to be.

I bought mine after reading a review in Consumer Reports which pointed out that the new Nova was identical in every respect to the Toyota Corolla, won of their top-rated cars. Back then the car makers didn't really like to talk much about their partnerships with foreign car giants like Toyota and Nissan. CU said something to the effect that if you buy a Corolla instead of a Nova, you might as well throw $3000 down the toilet.

It was a great car. It NEVER failed me. But...was it a GM or a Toyota?

If GM fails...don't they have partnerships with Toyota? Aren't Saabs just built on Buick platforms? Ford hasn't unloaded Volvo yet, right? Just sayin'....so many people in this thread think it's only about GM and Ford. But their tentacles reach far and wide.

.

[FormerDittoHead]

45. Exactly. I read "Consumer Reports", not "J D Powers".

I would never buy a car based upon if it fell apart in 3 damn months. But that's exactly what Powers surveys...

Check out the Consumer Reports auto buying guide. Don't buy it, just leaf through it at the book store. Look at the reliability ratings (the dots that are not/partially/and completely filled in) for the various systems of each make/model, going back year after year.

I don't give a CRAP that Detroit's cars fare better in the first 3 months. What I care about is the years 5 to 10!

My Buick Skyhawk *DIED* needing a $1,000 ring job at about 80,000 miles, after numerous expensive repairs leading up that.

Our '96 Camry, however, has about 250,000 miles on it and the thing won't die...

PS: I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT "STYLING". If you want pretty, buy a picture of Tina Louise. Besides, I think most of the "stylish" Detroit cars today look like cartoonish high school notebook doodles.

[yodoobo]

73. EXactly

Every GM product that I have purchased was excellent at delivery. (Except for that 1999 Denali that has mismatched door trim - drivers side leather, Passenger side cloth!!!)

But they were falling apart in a few years.

[ProfessorGAC]

174. And Yet, Our Experience Is Exactly The Opposite

Which is what happens when you take individual datapoints from a huge dataset.

The statistics indicate that nearly every manufacture has the same chance of making a car that gets to 150k miles with minor non-comsumable maintenance.

It's rare for ANY company to make a car that pukes on itself at 75 or 80 thousand miles.
The Professor

[Kalyke]

108. Guess you've never owned one.

I don't give a flying flip about the media's choice - the same as I don't about politics.

I know how well my American cars have done over 100,000 versus how well my in-laws cars have done. I win.... hands down.

[quiller4]

158. That hasn't been true for a long time.

Ford trucks outlast Toyota trucks and have far lower cost of ownership. My spouse worked for years at a Ford/Toyota dealership and we've owned both. His advice to friends was if you plan on selling a truck in two to three years, go for the Toyota. The resale will be better. If you want to retain and use a truck for a long time, go for the Ford. It is far more durable. Our 1995 F 150 proves the point every day. It has been the most trouble free vehicle we've ever owned.

My old 1993 Tempo is still on the road and has over 300,000 miles on it. It isn't pretty. We gave it to a friend in 2001 when it had 250,000 miles on it. It is still going strong. Neither old Ford has ever broken down but both have always had good routine maintenance and frequent oil changes. My 1995 Tbird was a reliable car and was still going stong with 125,000 miles on the odometer when I was hit by a drunk driver.

My sister wishes her Taurus of the same vintage would develop problems she is so sick of it but it refuses to die. Even teaching two teenagers to drive couldn't kill it.

[Atman]

59. Consumer Reports stopped automatically recommending Toyota's last year.

Yup.

In the last decade or so, the Toyota nameplate was all anyone needed to know whether or not the car was quality. Even Consumer Reports bought into it, as they had been consistently recommending Toyotas for years. But last year, Toyota's quality had slipped to the point that CU could no longer recommend Toyotas simply based on the brand. Several of their newer models have had recall and quality issues that rival anything recalls from Ford or GM.

It's MASS PRODUCTION. It's easy to be a "boutique brand." It's much harder to please everyone all the time. Toyota is just now discovering what GM should have known for years. The big difference is whether or not Toyota's management will be pro-active, as opposed to how GM's management behaved. I'd say yes, Toyota knows what it needs to do to survive...and it isn't asking for government handouts to fix it's bad product planning.

.

[GoesTo11]

115. Toyota is jumping the shark

I bought a Matrix. At its 15000 mile checkup, it turned out the tires were shot. I looked into it, and found out that this is a huge problem with the design that they've known about. They've fixed the design, but they tell people who bought the car during the years they had the problem that it's a problem with the tires, that the tires aren't under warranty except with the tire manufacturer, and the tire manufacturer will give you a $100 rebate if you buy a new set and pay an extra $100 to get them installed early anyway. And you're still stuck with the design flaw that means the next set of tires will wear out early too.

They aren't standing behind the problem at all, they are just pissing on the customer and telling him it's raining. This is just what lost the US companies their loyalty. When a company starts behaving this way, it's a matter of attitude, not capability. Toyota built their reputation and now they're cashing in at our expense. I had bought several Toyotas, and now I'm not buying them again.

[notadmblnd]

24. I'll remember that next time I pack my SUV up with food for people

I take buying trips out to the country and bring home 50lb bags of onions or potatos, sometimes even an entire carcass of beef for people to stock up and get through the winter. Or I'll keep in mind it's uselessness when im hauling my son's stand up bass to a concert, or when I'm picking him and a group of classmates up from an event. I'll have to keep in mind that it's a GM model and beside the fact that it's paid for, and that the quality is so shitty, the only thing I've replaced on it in the last 6 years is brakes and tires. I just have to keep remembering that despite all it's usefullness to me and the people I help, it's just a useless SUV. I suppose that I should also remember that the 1994 pickup that's been parked in my driveway since my husband died 5 years ago and still starts, is useless too?

[Malidictus Maximus]

36. When anyone makes something I can put my upright bass in

Plus the PA, plus two or three other people and their assorted guitars, violins, accordions and accessories like stands; and THEN navigate shitty roads in the rain, that isn't an S.U.V. I'll give it serious consideration.
Not that I don't deride the folks who drive one kid, or two sacks of groceries around in a Ford Excretion for burning through resources and taking up two parking spaces, but they are tools that some of us need sometimes. I'd love to get my big b ass around on my Harley, but even a side car won't work:-)

[notadmblnd]

39. They are beautiful monstrosities aren't they?

[CANDO]

44. Right now... no one is buying cars from anywhere.

I've never had a Detroit automobile let me sit on the side of any road. That is all that matters in my book. If you want to compare interior decor and things such as that, well knock yourself out! '83 Mustang, '91 Cavalier Z24, '92 F150, '99 Regal. Those are the new vehicles I've owned over the years and still drive the Regal today. Matter of fact the Regal is one hell of a nice car and has over 120k miles and I fully intend on it getting me to 200k and beyond. Wife and I have already decided we will not purchase another car until it is a fully electric vehicle. No hybrids... fully electric. We also have a used '99 F150 and my wife's '96 Hyundai Accent(purchased new). The Accent is actually quite a nice little get around town econo-box, but has developed a transmission quirk where it goes out of gear and just coasts along in neutral until you slow down enough for it to re-engage into a gear. It's automatic transmission btw. So low and behold it was a foreign car which has given us trouble thus far!

[carlyhippy]

166. Stupid Useless Vehicles......I own an SUV

Granted it's a Nissan Xterra, not a detroit name, it's still an SUV, and it's in no sense of the word useless, nor stupid. And I bought it brand new a few months ago, when gas was nearing 4.00 a gallon, and I am glad I did it.

Some people need hardy, large vehicles, whether they frequently travel with a large family, they haul stuff, go off road, or in my case, live in the frozen tundra part of the US, when a 4wd large vehicle could mean the difference of whether or not I make it to work on snow packed roads. Yes there is a higher rollover rating, but I still feel safer...I had a very small car and it was a miserable experience, I was scared all the time, especially driving next to an SUV or 18 wheeler, and with kids it's nearly impossible to travel long distances in a small car with luggage, etc. Would I have bought a small vehicle if I lived in a warm area with no winter weather and light driving? Probably so, but it's not a good idea around here, and most people do own and are still buying pickups and SUVs here.

[Kalyke]

3. They aren't crappy cars.

Haven't been in a long, long, long time.

I traded in my 13-year-old Mustang on a newer model two years ago and the only thing wrong with the old one was that it needed a clutch. Big whoop. That's just maintenance on straight-shifts.

I get excellent gas mileage (again, probably because I have a straight shift) and my car never has to go the shop, whilst hubby's German car takes up near permanent residence there and his parents' Japanese cars seem always to be having electrical or sensory problems.

I also paid far less than they did and get much more "pleasure" for it.

And, not only do I blame the management at GM and Ford, I also know I can't exactly blame them. American consumers DEMANDED gas-guzzling largess and are now left scratching their heads as to why they don't have the options of Europe. Duh.

[Tesha]

54. That's funny -- on a long, long history of manual transmission foreign cars...

some with more than 200K miles, I've *NEVER* needed a clutch.

Tesha

[LeftyMom]

65. My family had a Civic SI that practically ate them.

Sturdy little car otherwise, but I think in the 10 years or so they had it they had the clutch replaced three times. :scared:

[JVS]

78. How many miles?

You say your family, did you have any people learning to drive a stick on it?

[LeftyMom]

88. Nope. Not that many miles, either, it was pretty much the backup car

for when my sister's car was in the shop or my Dad didn't want to take his bike out due to weather or needed a little cargo room.

[EnviroBat]

123. Clutch lifetime in any vehicle is a function of the driver.

Driving habits car roast a clutch in 30,000 mi. Just depends on the driver, and how they drive the car. Feathering, hill-holding, wrong gear take-offs, all contribute to pre-mature clutch wear.

[Medusa]

164. I had a Civic too

Complete POS.

[JVS]

79. One clutch replacement in the course of 13 years is neither unusual nor unreasonable

[Kalyke]

109. Then you didn't drive it correctly.

I bet you needed brakes.

I didn't.

[Tesha]

136. Brakes? No, not so much brakes either.

But brakes are far cheaper than clutches anyway.

Tesha

[SmileyRose]

5. Recommended - fits hand and glove with something I posted earlier

It's not lazy greedy workers (Ford just closed a plant in Atlanta with international awards for quality and efficiency), it's not shitty cars (both mini-vans and SUVs were revolutionary and sold gazillions -- although they can certainly do better) -- it's poor planning, poor management, too much diversification, funneling money into dividends instead of R&D blah blah.

Add to this the run up on gas prices

Add to this the fleecing of America by big pharm

Add to this the race to the bottom on wages for everyone in America except the top 1 or 2%.

of course there is going to be a collapse. You can have 98% of the people losing buying power and expect to thrive.

[Kalyke]

110. I'll agree with you there.

My last 'Stang came from Atlanta. Best damn car I ever owned.

[Ian David]

7. "Lost another Billion dollars to DiTech!" n/t

[blueknight]

10. the big three have been dieing foe decades

they are paying for their crappy cars they built in the mid 70's to the 80's. people switched over to the foreign cars and never came back. and i dont blame the uaw, i blame the company

[POAS]

9. My last two Fords have been a joy

1995 Probe that I put 100,000 on and my son-in-law is still driving.

Replaced it with a Ranger that, even with a small V6 and auto, is getting me an average of 21 MPG.

Crappy American cars is an old meme that really needs to be retired.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. I Love Our Focus

But Fords have a lot of Mazda in them, which helps quite a bit I think.

[Kalyke]

27. My next car may be a Focus.

It won't be for a few years yet because my Mustang is only three years old, but I'm looking to go more hybrid in the future (if I can afford it. Hybrids are still more expensive on the front-end, which hurts eco-cars more than anything). I've read the Focus is going hybrid and probably will be by the time I'm in the market for a car again. Heck, I kept my last Ford for 13 years.

[madokie]

30. No Manny, its Mazda's have a lot of Fords in them

Check out the Jaguar now compared to before Ford purchased them. I know that ford has sold jaguar but what I'm saying is check out the quality that came with the brief ford ownership. Go compare a 10 or so year old ford and any of the others of the same year and mileage and see for yourself who makes good vehicles and who doesn't. :hi:

Add: I know of what I say because I've sold several people on buying ford products by asking them to do the same.

[FarCenter]

42. It would have been hard not to improve Jaguar's reliability

Aside from the Rolls Royce, quality of UK cars was generally crap.

And there aren't any UK manufacturers left. They are all owned by foreigners.

[mwb970]

43. My 2001 Focus ZX3 is the best car I've ever had.

(I had four Pintos and a Toyota Tercel previously.) I've had the Focus almost nine years & I still love it like it was new.

[whoneedstickets]

170. We've got the same car...

..with the 5-speed manual transmission. Its easily the most fun to drive car that I have ever owned. Great steering, cornering. Visibility is great. I've driven German and Japaneses sporty cars that pale in performance.

[Blue Gardener]

50. I have a 2008 Focus and LOVE IT!

It's a great car, get's very good mileage, and is built in America. The Sync system is fantastic.

[SmileyRose]

16. I picked Fusion over Avalon and glad I did

I have almost identical interior room in my Fusion as an Avalon. I don't have quite as many bells and whistles as what is available on Avalon but while the year model Avalon has now been recalled twice for electronics, my Fusion is still winning awards. I have 60,000 miles on this already and not one problem. Not one. the ride is as perfect as day one, not a single electronic problem, and my gas mileage is 17-21 city and 30-35 freeway. My overall is 27.6 mpg. If I'd gone with the Avalon I'd be lucky to get 18 overall.

My ONLY complaint, the only one, is that as usual, Ford rear seatbelts are way too sensitive for larger adult passengers, which encourages them to choose to ride without the seatbelt rather than get chocked when the dang thing locks up (and it will).

[FarCenter]

23. The Ford Probe is a Mazda

[POAS]

28. yep...joint venture same as 626

[suston96]

13. Lemme see, my first car was a 1941 Buick, and........

I only had a foreign car once - a Honda Civic which I got rid of when Honda wrote me about the possibility of a front fender flying off the vehicle while in transit.

Since then, many/all Detroit built products. Never had a lemon. Now have a 2004 Pontiac Vibe which gets 30 MPG.

Salivate when looking at those Ford Flex Crossover commercials. Square is in.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/crossovers/flex/?searchid=426441|28124900|205370171

[globalvillage]

14. I bought a car last year

My requirements were 35 mpg minimum and fun to drive. Pretty reasonable,IMO. I ended up with a MINI Cooper, because there was no American car that met my needs.

I don't think American cars are 'crappy', but it's pretty telling that I couldn't find one to meet my two very simple requirements.

[FarCenter]

15. Good luck with the Saturn

"We did buy our son a 2002 Saturn L200 which seems light years ahead of either the Windstar or the S-10 in terms of quality. "

Our '94 Saturn started to burn oil after 70,000 miles. Got up to 1 quart / 500 miles.

4-cylinder engines from Detroit have not had a good record for longevity. Google "saturn" and "oil" for owner testimonials.

On the other hand, the '91 Civic didn't burn oil significantly until its demise at 220,000 miles.

[Atman]

62. Wow...

Your '94 Saturn...and you're comparing it to my 2002 L200? Did you miss the point in my post about people's last experiences with American cars? You're talking about a car nearly fifteen years older than the one I'm talking about! Do you still bitch about your first-gen iPod?

Dude...time marches on.

.

[LeftyMom]

66. 90's Saturns did/do burn oil. Switching to a heavier oil or a synthetic helps enormously.

It's a known design flaw. Provided you keep up the oil changes, they're still quite reliable- I have 166K miles on mine, and it's never needed any repair more dramatic than an alternator.

[GentryDixon]

83. I have a 98 Saturn SW2

I still get 33/34 MPG, mostly local driving. The battery is the only thing I have replaced.

[PatGund]

99. On my 3rd Saturn....

The '92 SW2 ran for almost 400,000 miles before the transmission died.

The '99 SW2 didn't last that long though.

I'm now driving a '06 VUE with a Honda V6 engine in it. Pretty nice car actually.

Don't like the newer Saturns though - it's not a Saturn unless it's got plastic body panels. :-)

[Thegonagle]

143. Agreed about the SL/SC/SW Saturns. The old ones were a mixed bag, but...

they actually served their purpose very well. The quality "feeling" wasn't there like it is in a Civic or Corolla of similar vintage, but they were generally reliable, and if they did need a fix, it was virtually guaranteed that the part would be inexpensive (even from the dealer!) and the labor would be quick and easy.

I had a 94 Saturn SL2 that was still running great after 220,000 miles, and mine actually burned barely any oil (I got lucky, I guess). Mine didn't get 34 MPG, but I only paid $200 for the car (it needed a minor repair). The fuel consumption penalty over my previous Civic was easily smoothed over by the bargain purchase price.

I got 25,000 urban pizza delivery (in other words, beat to hell) miles out of it before a wheel bearing went out and I passed it along to a friend, and I probably made $30,000 in tips using that $200 American car.

[Atman]

144. Are you ready? The Chevy Cobalt everyone raves about upthread is a SATURN

Just sayin. Part of the problem with this argument is that so many people still relate their stories of 15 year old cars.

THINGS CHANGE. The 2002 Saturn we bought for our son was a very nice, solid car, with lots of impressive features. And, because of the bad rap Saturns get from people who haven't driven one in many years, ours was a great deal - $5000 for a car with only 28,000 miles and one owner.

And the new Chevy Cobalt all those people rave about upthread is just one of the new Saturns.

So, again...why do people hate on Saturns? I could give a shit...I bought one for my kid because it seemed like a very impressive, cheap car. But lots of people with no recent experience with Saturns claim to have some sort of insight. :shrug:

.

[Thegonagle]

149. Yes, the Chevy Cobalt and Saturn Ion are similar designs that share a lot of parts,

but what else is new? Are you going to tell me is that a Chrysler Town and Country is a dressed up Dodge Caravan, and that the GMC Suburban is virtually identical to a Chevy Suburban? Say it ain't so!

We were talking about the original Saturns here anyhow (the SL/SC/SW series), and if you didn't notice, I was in fact relaying my positive experience with my '94. I said it wasn't as polished as a Honda or Toyota, but that it worked just the same. And now, 15 years later, I'd guess that they've improved the perceived quality quite a lot through nicer interior parts and materials.

[Atman]

162. Funny thing is, we weren't talking about the original Saturns.

I mentioned that I was happy with the 2002 L200 we bought for my son to take to school. The respondent said "Good luck with the Saturn" and related his experiences with a car nearly 15 years older.

I don't know what your point is, other than to post that you think I didn't understand what you were saying.

I know that most cars share frames/engines/parts from those made by their corporate parents (Ford-Mazda-Jaguar-Volvo/Chevy-Toyota-Suzuki-Saab). I was simply connecting your comments about the quality of the Saturn to the upthread posts (I mentioned that, right?) about how many people loved their Cobalts. Which are basically just Saturns. Or the other way around.

A surprising number of people don't realize that there are really only a handful of cars with different pig-lipstick.

GM and Ford produce Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, Saab, Suzuki, and even Toyota vehicles. The people in this thread who keep saying it's just "Detroit's fault" for producing cars no one wanted to buy are buying into a false meme. GM and Ford are helping build many of the cars you're claiming GM hasn't been building.

.

[fishwax]

17. I have a Chevy car, and I'm quite happy with it

It's getting nearer to 200k miles, and it's not without a few problems, but they are fortunately fairly minor.

The problem with GM was definitely their management.

[LWolf]

19. My last american car was a 1990 dodge shadow.

Not red, but the rest is the same:



In comparison to the used Hyundai I drove for a couple of years before that, it was decent. In comparison to my '74 Honda Civic, and my '77 Datsun F10, both also bought used and driven for years, it was a piece of shit.

In comparison to the '94 toyota pickup I traded it in on, it was a piece of shit. My son drives that toyota now; it has 220,000 miles without ever leaving anyone stranded, which is more than I can say for the late model dodge.

The toyota pickup that son drove before that was a '79, which traveled 365,000 miles before he ran into a mountain and bent the frame in '99. The engine is still running, powering some equipment for a family member.

On the other hand, I/we had a '97 3/4 ton chevy pickup that was great. I lost that in a divorce settlement; I took the toyota, which had no payment and much better gas mileage, and left the big, nice truck to the ex.

Based on the reliability I'd experienced, I bought a new '04 toyota pickup a few years later and passed the '94 on to my son.

I've sometimes regretted that, as the 'yota doesn't haul my horses, and can't haul several tons of hay or a winter's load of firewood. If I could have a 2nd vehicle, it would be a full-sized american-made pickup.

And I'd drive a more economical car every day. Still, living rurally, I need high clearance and 4wd for unplowed roads, ice, and mud, and the toyota does that really, really, well.

For me it's about economy and reliability, and American cars don't compare well on those criteria. :shrug:

[Greyhound]

20. One of my friends bought an Aveo(sic?) and that car has cost GM another customer.

Yes. I know it is built by Hyundai or Suzuki or Deawoo or whomever, but the point is it has a Chevy badge and was bought from a Chevy dealer.

It is one of the worst pieces of shit I've ever been in and she hates it. It has no power but gets shitty mileage (my 22 year old Z gets better and the power is not even comparable), it looks like a wart but has no room for either passengers or cargo, it is noisy and drafty and the controls are inconvenient or in her case (she is tiny) unreachable but not to worry, her BF is 6'2" and can barely squeeze into it. Every time I ride with her I am updated on the saga of "this fucking piece of shit". Oh, and the dealership ripped her off very badly (that's a whole other issue that is hurting American manufacturers)

This car is not even a year old and has < 20,000 miles on it. She comes from a die-hard GM buying family but will never buy another GM product herself.

When did America become the land of "Good enough is good enough"?

[flvegan]

29. Yup, the Daewoo Kalos.

Another horrible offering from the Pacific Rim marques.

[CRF450]

91. She shoulda got a Cobalt, they're 10x better than the Aveo. nt

[Greyhound]

140. Irrelevant now, she will never buy another GM, and probably any American car now.

GM has been shoving customers to the Japanese for decades and now that they're caught short, they want a handout from us.

If any people are dim enough to do it, it is Americans. We'll see.

[Romulox]

183. Sounds like she (like many of the posters here,) is looking for an EXCUSE for not supporting labor.

[Greyhound]

184. Sounds like a woman that got ripped off for thousands of dollars and is not happy about it.

But of course we're talking about your job, so she must just be making excuses.:eyes:

Your arguments are so typically transparent it's pathetic. You're the guys that stood by or even helped as millions of other union workers had their lives taken away and now that the parasites are coming after your, due to your union's utter inaction for decades, it's time for solidarity.

Gander, this is sauce.

[Romulox]

185. So she's going to make people who had nothing whatever to do with it PAY!!!???

"But of course we're talking about your job, so she must just be making excuses."

Not my job. I don't punch any clock. :hi:

"You're the guys that stood by or even helped as millions of other union workers had their lives taken away and now that the parasites are coming after your, due to your union's utter inaction for decades, it's time for solidarity."

What in god's name are you talking about? "You're (sic) the guys"??? I am one person, and I am not now, nor have I ever, been an auto employee. I have been against so-called "free trade" since the '90s, however.

"Gander, this is sauce."

Internet, this is yet another revenge fantasy. Go ahead, don't let me (or facts, for that matter) get in between you and your internet revenge on unions. :eyes:

[Greyhound]

187. You're the one that made a completely unwarranted attack on a person you know nothing about.

So you're not in the Auto industry and therefore your idiocy doesn't even have the excuse of personal involvement, just more BS from a fount of BS.

[Romulox]

188. Personal attack? Link?

You seem enraged that anyone might disagree with you on a political discussion forum.

Welcome to the internet. :hi:

[Greyhound]

189. "Sounds like she is looking for an EXCUSE for not supporting labor."

Had to go all the way up two lines.

Apparently you also missed the part about her whole family being GM customers, too.

I took no position at all, so there's nothing to disagree with except your baseless attack and discounting of another person's experience.

Now, go stir up shit somewhere else.

[Romulox]

196. Yeah. That's not a personal attack. nt

[Captain Hilts]

22. I had 2 over 10 year old Oldsmobiles and they both ran repair-free and great. nt

[old mark]

141. One of my all time favorite cars was my 1988 Olds Touring Sedan.

Sold it when I retired. Had 8 was leather seats, sun roof, walnut dash, Bose stereo, air suspension, rack and pinion steering, alloy wheels.
Bought it out of a dealers back lot for $800, drove it to work for 2 years, sold it back to the same dealer for $400.

mark

[flvegan]

25. Agreed. I've owned 8 GM/Ford cars in my life

and largely, they were good cars. It just happens that no American car maker has a model that fits my specific wants/needs right now. Neither GM nor Ford build a hot hatch that compares with what I wanted earlier this year. If they did have one, I'd have considered it.

I was happy to buy American when they suited my needs at the time. Sportscar? Fine, I've had 2 Corvettes. Moved to Florida, wanted a convertible with decent horsepower. Great, 5.0 GT Convertible. High horsepower car for blasting around town in college? 87 Grand National.

As I posted in another thread, if Chevy brought the Vauxhall Astra VXR over here from the UK, we'd be back in business. Or better yet, give the Cobalt SS a 5 door model, and I'd be thrilled. Although, I'd really be no help as I'd never buy a brand new car anyway.

[madokie]

26. I'll take a Ford over any of the others,

If you stay away from their imported south Korean built pieces you will find the rest to be of very high quality. A good test of an auto's quality is to take note of the 20 year or so old ones. I've always been a ford person as I read about Henry Ford when I was young and I liked what I read plus our family car when I was a todler was a '31 ford model A. I pay notice and I see a much larger percentage of ford branded vehicles that are in the ten year and older range. Ford F150 and f250 are the toughest pickups ever made by anyone anytime. We bought a new F150 in '98 and it has 130,000 miles on it and I must say it is still just like it was when we brought it home from the dealer. Yes, it walks the same and talks the same and looks the same, except'n the paint, my fault, as a new one and its 10 years old. I have friends who are chevy, dodge and toyota pickup people and they all agree with me that the quality in the fords is so much better. So I agree with the statement you make that Americans only build crappy cars, its bullshit. I say to anyone if you want to see what kind of vehicles a company makes go to the used lots and check out the older ones. The fords always come out on top.

[ben_thayer]

31. My '94 Ford (Eddy Bauer) Explorer went

well over 250,000 miles with only a trans rebuild and minimum maintenance. It'd probably still be going if my brain-dead nephew hadn't run it into a tree and totaled it. It got me through some BAD Michigan winters, and the mileage was pretty respectable, considering.

:shrug:

[pansypoo53219]

32. does loving my

72' & 73' oldsmobile delta 88's count? the 67' catalina? all driven in the 90's. 20 yr old cars that drove like tanks, but started. reliable basic. and they had COUCHES. fuck bucket seats.

[JNelson6563]

34. I've got an American car I am very happy with

And I've owned mostly American cars my whole life. My dad worked for GM (white collar) and so very many of us in MI buy American because we know this how our families survive and thrive, or at least that's how it was.

But it's fun to dump on US carmakers and fuck the unions too! Oh and who cares about Michigan, right?

Frankly I'd like to see a bailout with some serious terms. Then I'd like to see DUers act like Democrats again and pull their heads outta their asses.


Julie

[Bombero1956]

37. this is me with my 2006 Mustang

It now has 22,000 miles on it. I don't drive it during the winter because I hate the salt and sand damage and the other idiot drivers who forget how to drive in the snow. The only "problem" I've had with it is the asshole in the neighborhood who keeps egging it. So for its been egged 3 times and has a pumpkin thrown at it once.

[CRF450]

95. Fuckin vandals

I would break somebody's hand that messes with my car. Theirs no excuse for that dumb shit.

[FredStembottom]

38. I'll never forget shopping for a new car with my Mother in 1980!

At the local Chrysler-Plymouth dealer, the cars IN THE SHOWROOM all had knobs and little bits of plastic trim left on the front seats of the cars! They would come off in people's hands, who would then just leave them on the seat. One car (that model with Ricardo Montalban's "rich Corinthian Leather") had the outside door handle laying on the seat!

She bought the original Honda Accord instead. Lasted almost 200,000 miles.

BUT....realizing what a bargain rental fleet cars are when they sell them off at 20,000 miles, my wife and I bought a 97 Pontiac Sunfire (in '98) and a '98 Windstar van (in '99).

BOTH were terrific! Fit and trim still not up to Japanese standards - but they have been virtually trouble free (well, except for the GM water-pump every 40,000 miles thing that has been a GM tradition for about 50 years). The Sunfire had an accident otherwise would still be here - and the Windstar still is here and still is the handiest most dependable vehicle I ever bought (if egregiously frumpy-looking even when new).

I now have a 2001 PT Cruiser that I bought from my kid's automotive school (they use cars as project cars and then re-sell them to help support the school). That car is now my favorite vehicle ever! Big sturdy seats like 1950's cars. Fit and trim right there with Japanese cars. Fast. Rigid. Ridiculously clever cargo re-config. Chair-height driving position - all on a freakin' Dodge Neon base. So gas mileage is 26-29 all the time.

I love American cars (now)!

This from a sworn enemy of American cars (after my 1980 Chevette!)

[SmileyRose]

48. Chevette LOL

I just thought about my cousin Tommy. He bought this horrid barf yellow manual 4 speed Chevette, screwed around with the pipes to get it all loud and thought he was the hottest hottie of all hotties. The guy is still a dork. LOL

[earth mom]

41. I've owned many American made cars and I haven't had one that let me down ever.

But the VW bug I owned drove me up the wall and I got rid of it quickly. Same with the two brand new Toyotas I had. I felt like I was driving around in a tin bucket in all three cars. Plus, stuff seemed to wear out quickly on them like the paint, interior, and rubber trim. :yoiks:

[tammywammy]

46. I have owned 2 GM vehicles and currently a Volkswagen

I have to say, neither GM (a 1992 Pontiac Sunbird and a 2001 Chevy Cavalier) every left me stranded. I beat the hell out of that Cavalier too.

I love my Volkswagen Beetle TDI. I also work for a Volkswagen dealership. BUT even I know that there sure as hell was a market for GM, Ford and Chrysler these last few years. If the Big 3 go under, it'll take a whole lot of other people with them. And even though they're a competitor, I sure as hell don't want to see the aftermath of them going bye bye.

I think that the current GM management needs to go back to their roots and read up on Alfred P. Sloan a little more. Sloan wouldn't have let GM get into this mess in the first place.

[seabeyond]

49. i dont like my saturn. at all. liked my gm camero, cavaliar and pontiac ??? cant

remember the name. grand prix? high end whatever car it was.

only foriegn car, mazda millinium, i LOVED.

[SammyWinstonJack]

51. .

:thumbsup: Just noted my donation. Thank you kind person, who ever you are! :yourock:

[peanut2010]

52. I have owned and driven Fords exclusively for 34 years

I have never had any real problems with any of them.I keep them for years and they alway are high milage.I make my living with a 18 year old Ford L9000 Aeromax with 1.2 million miles on it.

[sufrommich]

148. I've never had a problem with a Ford either.

I drove a Ranger for 10 years and my son drove it for another 5,we finally gave it to charity and it's probably still out there somewhere. I drove an Escape for 7 years with not one problem,I now drive a Fusion and love it. I'll swear by Fords,they don't come any better.

[cal04]

53. I have a 12 year old Cavalier and I love the car

Never had problems. I wish they still made them

[Liberal In Texas]

55. I have always owned American made cars (GM) and have been quite happy with them.

I have a '03 TrailBlazer that is great for my job requirements, looks and rides nice, and gets fairly decent gas mileage for an SUV.

I also have an '87 Pontiac Firebird with about 160,000 miles on it and it still runs pretty good for it's old age.
>
I have also owned Oldsmobiles in the '60s and into the '80s.
>

My wife has a Nissan and we have a devil of a time getting parts for it. I will say it runs well and is dependable.

[dysfunctional press]

56. i LOVED my pacers. if they brought them back i'd buy one again.

nt

[AlCzervik]

57. If Ford were to bring the same designs they make for Europe to the US then i

would buy one. Way better looking Ford's in European than there are here, bring them over, i'll buy one i swear.

[Telly Savalas]

98. I think they're going to start selling Fiestas in the US in 2010.

[Odin2005]

58. If I hear another "Ford = Fix or repair daily" quip I'm gonna go an a rampage.

The "domestic cars suck" meme was probably true in 1980, but it's not anymore. The Big 3's problem is bad management and escalating healthcare and pension costs. That is a big reason why we need not only a national healthcare system but also a national PENSION system above and beyond Social Security if we want US manufacturing to survive.

[GrizzlyMan]

60. How about Found On Road Dead?

My first car was a 1984 Ford Bronco II....and boy was that ever a POS. Later on I got a 1994 Jeep Cherokee. It was a great ride, but it was brand new. It started coming apart at about 75k. My wife had a 1999 Pontiac Firebird that we got rid of just before the back end went out which was going to be a $1500 expense, at minimum. It was a POS as well.

I do believe American companies are producing good cars now, but for the life of me, I've had some pretty shitty luck with them. Meanwhile my 2000 Accord has 216,000 on it as is still ticking...knock on wood. We replaced her car with a Honda CRV which will do at least 250,000 before it goes to the scrap heap.

[Odin2005]

64. I'd guess that the mid 90s was when the domestic cars started getting good again.

And Broncos are probably the poster-boy of bad 80's vehicles. :rofl:

[lildreamer316]

77. I know, but my 1984 Ford really *did* leave me stranded a lot.

But that was the 80s...I know they are better now.

[Atman]

87. Yup...and my 1980's stereo had 1.8% Total Harmonic Distortion.

I'll never buy from Radio Shack again!

Oh, wait...I don't anyway.

.

[Blue Diadem]

135. Ours too. We had 2 '84s, leased. Longest 4 yrs of my life.

We'd been a loyal Ford family until then. Those were the last for us. When we turned them in, both cars had under 40,000 miles. I probably still have the huge stack of repair papers packed away somewhere.(Imagine a transmission going out at 13,000 miles) We switched to mainly Chrysler after that, with a couple GM's thrown in too.

Edited to add: We have a 1992 Dodge Dynasty that is still going strong. 225,000 miles on it.

[XOKCowboy]

161. GMC - Gotta Mechanic Coming

Hey my '72 Ford F250 was a great truck. My dad's '69 F250 Camper Special hauled us all over the Rockies when we were kids, took him to the beaches of Baja twice before becoming his "hearse" when we brought him back to the ranch for his funeral. It still lives on with it's second engine (and 300000+ miles) as a ranch feed truck today.

All of our Ford truck have 100K-200K on them. The company I used to work for had 3 Ford E350s all with over 250K on them. No the workers made good cars and trucks. It was the management that was hooked on oil and gave us SUVs, SUTs, Hummers and fought CAFE standards when the rest of the worlds saw the signs and offered hybrids and more efficient vehicles.

[MadHound]

61. Enough people haven't wanted to buy the Big Three that it has seriously hurt their business

And American cars have, justifiably, gotten a reputation for being gas guzzling and unreliable over the past thirty plus years. Granted, over the past eight-ten years, quality has improved in the Big Three, but it's going to take a long while to overcome over a generation's worth of plain suckiness.

Right now, I've got a '98 Nissan truck and a '98 Honda that are the regular drivers. I also have a '87 Toyota Corrola that I drive once in a while, especially on snow, since it's a great snow car. None of these vehicles have had serious problems, or even minor ones. They simply keep going. On the other hand, I've seen domestic makes that start crapping out after two years, and in some cases, potentially lethal problems(catching on fire, mysterious acceleration problems) When I went to purchase these cars ten years ago I looked at the domestics and quickly moved on. They still had horrible reliability problems, bad resale values, and crappy gas mileage. When the time comes to purchase another new car, I will again look at domestics, but when I do look, I want to see a ten year record of good reliability and gas mileage that is competitive with the Japanese. If not, then I will go and buy my car elsewhere.

One can scream "Buy American" all you want, but in the end, it is my hard earned money on the line, money that I simply can't afford to throw into a money pit of a car. It isn't up to me to be loyal to the domestic automakers, it is up to them to offer a product that meets my needs. That's what the free market is all about.

[donco6]

63. I've had three American cars.

The first was a '71 Ford Pinto. Go ahead and laugh. But you know, that thing got me to school every day, AND to college and back, AND moved me to Lincoln, NE where the poor thing finally breathed it's last. ALWAYS started on the coldest days when no one's would. He may have been a fireball waiting to happen, but he was my buddy. Snif.

Then I had a '71 Chevy Impala. Big 'ol tank, but ran like a dream. I traded it in on a . . .

1980-something Chevy S-10 pickup. Biggest mistake ever. Just everything was cheap on it. The paint ripped off in the car wash one day. Broke down several times. I vowed never again.

But I'm driving a 2005 Volvo XC70 (Ford). And will probably get another when the lease runs out - unless someone has a suggestion for a good 4X or all-wheel vehicle with room in the back for coolers and dogs and can make it up a snowy mountain.

[LeftyMom]

67. I hate to say it on the We Love American Cars thread- but Subaru

It's funny- I live at the base of a mountain range. All the people who go up the hill twice a year to ski/snowboard have giant SUVs "for the snow" and it seems like once you get up the snowline all you see are Subaru Legacy/Outbacks and Forresters.

For the size, they have a ton of cargo room, even with the back seat up. Way more than my Saturn wagon, which is about the same size.

[Atman]

68. Well, as a Subaru owner, I wouldn't expect you to say anything different!

No offense...a decade or so ago, Consumer Reports wouldn't even rate Subaru's because their owners were notoriously protective of their brand-love. Owners returned statistically ridiculous surveys which didn't match up with actual dealer repair information.

We always laugh when we drive to Vermont to snowboard. I swear, the Official Car Of Vermont is a Subaru. It seems everyone in The Green Mountain State owns one. Yet, contrary to the picture you paint, our South Korean SUV (07 Santa Fe...best car I've ever owned) has plowed through many intense Vermont snow storms and passed Subarus on the side of the road.

I'm not denying Subarus are good cars. I'm just sayin' -- Subaru love is way over rated.

.

[LeftyMom]

71. I've never owned a Subaru. I drive a Saturn.

It's okay in the snow, but I wouldn't suggest it for daily use for that purpose, since it's very light and that's not great for traction.

Edit: I actually said in the comment you replied to that I drive a Saturn. :shrug:

[Atman]

84. Oops, my bad!

You did say you were a Saturn driver...the post started off sounding like a Subaru-owner's post.

I'm sorry! :blush:

.

[Thegonagle]

155. Driving successfully in the snow is about two things:

Driver skill and experience, and 4 matching tires suited to the task. The car itself is secondary.

I'll drive anything, big or small, in the snow with snow tires or good all-seasons. No $34 specials--they're garbage, and no OEM tires either--the original tires are also generally garbage for snow driving.

In fact, I actually prefer lighter cars in the snow (as long as they have good tires) because I find them easier to control. They can stop shorter, and change direction more readily.

I've had a lot of cars, driven in lots of snow, and changed lots of tires. Once your winter driving skills are honed in, it's tires, tires, tires.

[PatGund]

102. I have a joke....

...."how long do you have to live in Seattle before you're issued with your Subaru??"

I swear, they're all over the place here.

[hogwyld]

159. Seems like Subaru is the official car

of Portland, OR.

[ColbertWatcher]

69. There was a time when American cars were awesome ...

[Atman]

85. Exactly how are either of these vehicles better than a full-sized SUV?

Horrible gas mileage...threatening to other people on the road...a symbolic penis...you name the comparison. Hell, at least a Hummer can transport 12 people.

Come on, man...I started this thread, and I appreciate what you intended to be high praise for American automobiles. But I wasn't even praising American cars, just casting light on the ridiculous "nobody is buying them" storyline. Those are two awesome sleds, no question. But they're actually the antithesis of the forward-thinking needed in Detroit.

Just sayin'

:hi:

.

[ColbertWatcher]

103. Yes, the cars in the pics in my post are gas guzzlers, but they were made in the 60's-70's.

But, yhou have to admit they were the most awesome of their day.

The problem with America's automakers these days is that this is no longer the 1960's or 1970's.

Hell, even computers have changed with the times.

The problem is America used to have state-of-the-art passenger vehicles, the car companies just haven't evolved.

[CRF450]

169. Todays high perfromance cars are way more effecient than those pictured

Like I said earlier, the new Corvettes can easily get 30mpg HWY, twice as much as the old muscle cars back in the 60's.

[seasat]

70. Their rep came from a few spectacularly bad cars

I don't think that US manufacturers make all bad cars but they have made some spectacularly bad particular models that gave them that reputation. This US news article points out some of the bad moves that the manufacturers made over the years. Their management failed in the US market due to a lack of foresight. They reacted to events instead of preparing for them. I owned a '76 Mustang II as my first car and it was spectacularly bad. Detroit reacted to the demand for small economical cars by rolling poorly designed and tested vehicles. However, my second vehicle was an S-10 Blazer that lasted for 261,000 miles. With my driving habits, the reliability of that Blazer impressed some of my friends so much that they bought S-10s too.

IMHO, Detroit can make great vehicles they've just had some spectacular model failures with poor responses that led to their current reputation.

[yodoobo]

72. I got tired of buying Crappy detroit cars

Last one I bought was in 2001. A Chevy Venture minivan.

It made it till 2007. 85,000 miles and the engine was shot.

I have purchased a total of about 10 GM new products in my lifetime. That Chevy Venture will be my last ever. What-a-piece-of-crap.

And yes, I have been hearing, pretty much since childhood that "GM's products are the best ever, and that the bad products are in the past"

I think that 10 chances is more than enough.

I do hope they survive though, as many jobs depend on it, but they'll have to do it without me as a customer.

[mwooldri]

74. I have a used Windstar - waiting for the scrappers....

... and yesterday I paid it off. We had to take it off the road 8 months ago, it was that bad.

I don't have access to Youtube at work but there's a wonderful clip of Jeremy Clarkson reviewing the Ford F-150. It may be Americas' top selling pickup truck, but given the Jeremy Clarkson treatment, I don't think I'll be buying one.

[OhioChick]

75. Good post. n/t

[lildreamer316]

76. Right now I have a 2003 Chevy Impala; because

it's what I qualified for. But that's fine with me. To offset the gas costs (which really aren't that bad); I also own a Honda Del Sol.
My mother and father were big Buick devotees; and I drove her Le Sabre for a couple of years.
I absolutely love Firebirds.

[JVS]

80. Qualified for?

[Atman]

86. "Sub prime" car loan.

I am going to make some assumption here, based upon passed experiences...

The poster is referring to those car dealers who guarantee you approval. If you have questionable credit, they'll arrange high-interest financing for you, provided you purchase certain vehicles on their lots. Are they old inventory which needs to be moved? Or vehicles with higher resale value with which to secure the loan? Depends upon whose side you're hearing, the salesman's or everyone else.

So anyway, first they decide how much they can bilk you for...then they steer you to a selection of cars on the lot they want to get rid of. Then they write in an extended warranty for $1200 and tack it to the selling price.

.

[lildreamer316]

106. Yep; that's about it.

But my credit is getting rebuilt, so I am dealing with the cost. We don't have many other bills (no credit cards; never have; and no house payment) so it's workable.

My husband wrecked our family car a couple of years ago and I did not have anything but liability coverage.He also incurred massive legal bills during said incident. We had to save to make a down payment for this car, and meanwhile I drove a $1500 car for a year.

So, now this loan place reports to the credit places every month that we make a payment on time & the payment is deducted from my checking account automatically. I've already received more 'pre-approved' offers for cards in the mail than I would like to think about.

OH! and that warranty?? SAVED OUR ASSES about two months ago when a computer chip went bad and the car died in my driveway. I had to pay towing and a $100 deductible, but the part replaced cost $2500 that we would not have had.

Sure, I know I'm paying more than the car is worth - but that's the price I pay to get my/our credit back on track. It could have been much, much worse.

I will say at this point that I am grateful for the opportunity.

[Atman]

111. Hey, it helped us out, too.

That's how we got the Windstar. The transmission went on it in six months. Followed by the heads. Those two repairs alone were worth over $5000, paid for with the $1200 warranty. But it kept the car rolling until it crapped out, by which time our credit was re-built enough to get a brand new car at a reasonable (but still slightly high) rate.

Glad to hear it's working out for you. It can be a good program for people who pay can afford the payments. It can suck you into a black hole of never-ending debt if you're not careful (or are being sold something you really can't afford).

.

[buckettgirl]

119. wow

What's wrong with driving a $1500 car??? Old beaters can make good vehicles. And they are paid for.

You are upside down in your vehicle and are ok with that? That is absolutely nuts. What happens when you have another accident and can't get enough from insurance to pay off the car?? All the extra money that you are paying for on that vehicle could have went into savings for something else.

[lildreamer316]

122. The 1500 car died three weeks before I bought the new one.

D-E-D dead. Engine and transmission. I have a four year old that depends on that car. I can't put him in the two-seater Del Sol that I own; it's illegal.

My credit was in the trash and no one would finance me on a 'regular' lot. I can transfer this loan to my bank as of December and get a more competitive rate. As it is; I am only paying $246 a month. I don't think that's so bad. I also have gap insurance and the warranty that came with the purchase of the vehicle. The gap insurance covers the part of your question- about getting enough to pay off the car. So I'm covered if there is another accident. I was also able to move my regular insurance to another company from the old one and get full coverage; so I should be as covered as I can be, considering.

And my mother left me her IRA that I am not ever touching. In other words, my retirement is paid for. It's the day to day from here to 65 that is hard to pay for. Savings are a goal; but as I said in my other post; we don't have any credit cards, and no house payment; so a car payment is not the death of us.

I'm also really tired of driving crappy cars. If I want an old car, I will get a classic and restore. My other car; the two seater Del Sol; is a 1995. They don't make them anymore and it gets 37 to the gallon. It's nice not to have to worry about what is going to break next when I have my child in the car. THAT'S what's wrong with driving a $1500 car. One time we were stuck on the side of the highway because that $1500 car broke down and no one could come get us. I had to carry my son several miles to an exit to get to someone for help. Fuck that shit.

This was a well-thought out and sound decision. I would end up paying a lot of money any way you slice it, since my credit was shot. I saved up $3000 to put down on the car in the first place. I knew what we were getting into when I signed the papers; and I will be able to mitigate some of the high interest rates when I refinance next month.

[buckettgirl]

139. all i can say

people wonder why this country is in the mess that it is.

Although I totally understand wanting a vehicle that won't break down - nothing is guaranteed. I have been there and done that myself.

If you had $3000 to put down, then why not buy a $3000 car - it would have been paid for and you could have saved the $246 a month for something nicer down the road or used it for the apparently hard to meet day to day expenses.

Being upside down in a vehicle is NEVER smart. I would challenge you to find a financial planner/advisor who thinks it is.

[lildreamer316]

167. You've got to be kidding me.

So you would have had me buy a $3000 vehicle - which; by the way, I had attempted to do the year before; and had done all the searching possible to find a good, reliable one at that price in this area (and even within 50 miles of this area) - and then be responisble for it when it breaks down; which after all the aforementioned research and searching; I realized it was bound to do; because there is a dearth of reliable vehicles in that price range in this area; or there was at the time that I desperately needed a vehicle capable of carrying more than two people (also factor in that my husband was working, daily, two hours away; so the other vehicle we own was not availble if an emergency had arisen anyway AND it is illegal for me to put my child in it!)? The $1500 car previously mentioned was originally a $2000 vehicle that we haggled about for a week until we got it at that price. Also, you are not taking into account the future value of the car I now have; which I estimate to be worth considerably more in trade-in value than the $1500 one (that is now NOT RUNNING and would need repairs totalling the total value of the vehicle, or over, to even drive it onto a lot and my present car would still (and YES, I DID THE RESEARCH) be worth more of a trade-in value now than the supposed $3000 car would be (esp. after having driven it for a year).

A $3000 car would be supposed, and rightly so, to have close to, or over, 100K miles on it. Depending on the make and model (and here we touch upon the OP's original point; it depends on the perceived and actual performance of American built vs. foreign; would it have been a 'piece of crap'?) it would have various and sundry things that can and would start to go bad on it; necessitating one or probably several repairs of generally decently large monetary nature. Again, one runs the risks of being stranded somewhere (since obviously at the time I could not afford AAA) with MY CHILD IN THE CAR - cold? by myself? on the side of the highway? hours from friends? Who knows?? Maybe it wouldn't have been that bad; maybe it would have..but I am not really willing to take that chance again; having put myself and my child through it more than once a couple of years ago with the $1500 car. BTW, that time I was stranded on the side of the road; I ended up having to RENT A CAR TO GET HOME to the tune of a deposit of $300 to secure, and $150 to rent (all they had left on the lot at THREE IN THE MORNING were luxury sedans, so that's what I had to rent; and thank god they were EVEN OPEN AT THAT HOUR. And, of course, the cost of repairing the car. Another $150. The security deposit on my account to secure the rental did not come off for a WEEK (not what I was informed); during which time I bounced a couple of payments; costing me ANOTHER $60+ in fees. So, I spent $600 for the 'privelage' of not having a car payment and the lovely thought of 'not being upside-down' - meanwhile; several bills did not get paid; my electric was almost shut off; and we barely WERE ABLE TO EAT.

Sometimes, you gotta look at what matters right now. My child's welfare and happiness outweigh my great despair at paying a couple thousand dollars more than this car is worth. It is not the worst thing that can happen; my peace of mind when I am on the road in that !American-made car is great; and again; I will mitigate the upside-down-ness a bit when I refi at my bank next month. I have already been assured several percentage points lower on the rate; and since I am planning on going back to work at the beginning of the year; we will either trade the car in at the end of next year; or refi again/make extra payments.

Considering all the 'smart' moves I think we as a family have been able to make/afford (no house payment; and yes, I live IN a HOUSE that I own!); no car payment UNTIL this one (I am 35); and absolutely NO credit cards; I clip coupons (one of the people that started the frugal living group); almost never shop for clothes; make my own beauty products; make dinners at home; have two cell phones locked into unlimited plans costing less than $70 a month each...I think we are smart enough. Being slightly upside down on this car was a necessary evil that is restoring both our credit ratings, so that in the future, if we need to use said credit ratings for something (another house if we have to move; which it looks likely that we will; or college for our son if I decide not to use either the IRA I already have, or the one I plan to start this year) it will be there.

Buying this car opened up possibilites that a $3000 car could not have. My husband just had to travel four hours away for work last week. Our other car does have a problem and is sidelined for the moment. I was able to feel comfortable and confident that he could get to this job, on time and intact(he's been out of work for almost two months; we really needed this job). I can look to the future with more hope and confidence; not to the fact that the car would need to be replaced within the next two years. If I wanted to, this car would last me longer than that. It still has under 90K on it right now.

So, I don't think this was a dumb move at all.

[Atman]

173. I wasn't dumb. It's easy to be so practical when it doesn't cost you anything, right?

Bucketgirl seems to be missing that part of the equation. Sometimes you just have to swallow some bad medicine to get better. We, too, were in a financial mess and had to go this route to secure a "reliable" car. Yes, they "force" you to buy roadside assistance and extended warranties...I put it in quotes because you obviously have the right to opt out. But doing so is kind of like trying to walk out of a timeshare presentation. These are high-profit items, and the dealer knows you're in a pinch with nowhere else to go.

The funny thing, as you and I have both experienced, is that the $1200 ad-on warranty we were "forced" to purchase with our vehicles actually saved our asses. If I had had to pay for new heads or a new tranny out of the household budget, I would have garaged the car and been totally stuck. And as you mentioned, these deals tend to also come with roadside assistance. Trouble is, they also tend to include fabric treatments, rust proofing and other high-pressure add-ons. Those were the things we did put our foot down on, said no way.

We kept paying for the piece of crap Windstar. Make no mistake, it wasn't always breaking down, but when it did, it broke down spectacularly. Otherwise, most of the time,it was an awesome vehicle. By the time it had finally crapped out beyond hope (cracked timing chain cover, no repair shop would even touch it), we had been making the payments regularly for a few years. As inflated as they may have been, we paide 'em and were able to get a real car at a fairly decent (but obviously not A++) rate.

Is it really predatory car lending? I mean, they're really selling you on a whole program, not just a car. The pitch is, they'll warranty it (you have to pay the $1200, though) so it is always in good running order, because if it's in good shape, you'll be more likely to continue to make your payments, and if you make your payments your credit will improve, and in a couple of years you'll be able to bring the car back to them and trade it for a new car, because they'll know the history and your credit will be good, blah blah blah blah...We got out, didn't buy again from the dealer because we felt he had stuck us with a pos, and now we were able to shop anywhere we wanted because our credit was better.

You know what's really crazy...this sub-thread is a great metaphor for the whole auto industry bailout. The solution may suck and seem like a ripoff, but...

.

[Thegonagle]

145. The "sub-prime" used cars that work well for those loans are generally

domestics, because their resale value is so low.

The "special-finance" loans, as they're called in the business, are best written for cars less than 4-5 years old and with fewer than 75,000 miles. That way, if the car does need to be repossessed, chances are in the bank's favor that the car will still have a wholesale value in the thousands, instead of hundreds. Therefore, for the amount most "special finance" customers want their payments to be, they can get a lot more car for the same money in a domestic.

[RetroLounge]

81. GM should build more of these...

I loved my GM's...



http://image.carcraft.com/f/rebldryvr/6965048+w450+h338+cr0+re1+ar1/1965-chevrolet-impala-4.jpg

in the mean time, my 2006 Hyundai Sonata has been a dream to own...

:hi:

RL

[Waiting For Everyman]

82. I have a '98 Chevy Malibu with no problems, and had a lemon Subaru before that.

I bought the Chevy new and have had it that long. I wish now that it was a Cavalier, but I needed the extra size for my husband's wheelchair before he died.

The Subaru was a total POS, nothing but repairs constantly.

[Thickasabrick]

89. I loved my Ford Escape - wish I hadn't sold it. nt

[CRF450]

90. Thank you!! Finally an open minded poster brings up this issue.

Any car can end up being a lemon, or give you sudden problem. I see my fair share of imports that appear to be problematic, especially the ones burning oil (mostly cause the owner was beating the shit out of it) or just flat out look horrible. I actaully saw for the first time the other day a newer 07+ Nissan Altima burning oil, I believe it was the 2.5 4cyl engine since it had the 2.5 emblem on the back. I had a 94 camaro with the 3.4 v6, it has some small problems, closest one to being major was the ignition module shorting out. I now have 01 Trans Am WS6, and an 04 Dodge Dakota, 4 door crew cab, 4x4. No problems what so ever with the Dakota, for the T/A I had a few little problems but they were mainly cosmetic stuff.

The 80's and 90's GM cars were built like crap indeed as far as body and interior goes. My 01 Trans Am interior is all cheap plastic, even the seats which are suppose to be leather are cheap and plastic feeling. Thats gonna change cause I'm getting a viynl kit to cover all the platic for a higher quality feel, as for the seats I havent really looked around for upholstry shops but I want those done too with a high quality leather. Nowadays Detroit cars are built real well, fuel milage as far as trucks, SUV's, midsize and fullsize cars, and high performance cars are on par, the Corvette gets better than any other similar sports car, they actually get 30+mpg on the highway despite the 26mpg EPA rating. Hell my car got 31mpg, and it averages around 22-23mpg which is pretty good for a car that has a 350hp v8. The LS3 in the new Vettes are more powerful and efficient than the LS1 in my T/A.

[McCamy Taylor]

92. My PT Cruiser is great! Better than my husband's Civic or my old Acura and the Toyota before that.

I don't know where they make the PT Cruiser, but it is has done fine for city driving and for our once a year trips to Sante Fe. Great acceleration. We got a whole mattress set in the back once so it can take the place of a pick up. As long as you do not need it for long distance commute, is a wonderful car and for some reason, they have high road visibility, i.e no one ever crowds them on the road or tries to run into me. I think it is the "cute" factor, sort of like with the old VW bug. No one used to crowd me when I drove a bright red bug either. Better AC than a Japanese import.

Haven't had a single problem with it since I bought it I forget how many years ago.

[knitter4democracy]

93. My old Subaru was crap compared to my Ford Freestyle.

The car was only five years old when the tranny went. In our family, the rule is to get rid of the car when the tranny goes, considering it to be a sign of other things to come. The car had never fit my 6'2" husband at all, the seats were hard, the handling was okay but could've been better, and the mileage kept getting worse and worse.

After doing lots of research, I decided to try a Ford Freestyle (same crossover class, supposedly same mileage, not much bigger). I was hooked. Better transmission, better handling by far, fit all of us with ease and then some, better mileage--and when compared new, the Subaru was more. My first car was a Mercury Tracer that just wouldn't die, and I gladly came back to Ford. Hardly any problems with this baby, and I have several mom friends who own Toyotas or Nissans who are seriously jealous of my car. They should be: mine's better.

Those who say Ford cars are crap haven't driven any lately or read up on Car Talk or Car and Driver. Ford has the lowest recall rate of any car company, and I've been shocked at the great service I've gotten at the dealership.

[tabbycat31]

105. I am the opposite

I had a 1999 Ford (escort) that died in January 07 with 116K miles. After about 50K miles, it had all kinds of problem.

The same month I bought my Ford (new), my parents bought a Subaru Forester. That car never had any work done other than routine maintnance. After the Ford died, I bought the Subaru from my parents. It's going very strong at 140K miles.

My next car will be another Subaru (impreza since I perfer small sedans)

[knitter4democracy]

124. I was surprised, honestly.

Everyone said that Subarus were the best, and it was way better than my mom's half-dead old Jeep I'd been driving. It was a problem from day one. The dealer refused to make good on a few things they'd promised, and it got worse from there. Ford has been just plain amazing in comparison.

[sendero]

94. You are right..

.... I have a BIL who is in the auto manufacturing consulting business. According to him, the ONLY reason GM (and I'm sure the others as well) kept making light trucks and SUVs was simple

1) People bought them, and they would pay enough for them that they made a 4-5K profit on each sale

2) They barely broke even on passenger cars.

Of course, one of the main reasons for this is that with passenger cars they were competing head to head with Honda, Toyota, etc - not so much on large SUVs and trucks. But nonetheless, this is where they found themselves. And they WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN MAKING THESE STUPID YUKONS AND ESCALADES EXCEPT THAT PEOPLE BOUGHT THEM LIKE HOTCAKES.

So, when looking for the enemy in the auto situation, look to the American public as a whole. And yes, the car makers should be been proactive about the day this scenario would inevitably end, no argument there.

[azmouse]

96. I had a 1980 Chevy Monza that lasted 14 years.

Had to sell it when I moved to AZ because it didn't have A/C. :)

[drumtrip]

104. I've always owned Subarus but...

Our Joe worked in a union

Our Joe built cars

Joe the mechanic's life is not the fault of his employer no matter how stupid that employer may be.

Let them die, does no justice for our Joe. For our fight for unions, for our fight for the heart of American workers. Joe deserves a job, we deserve great cars, and yes there is a middle ground there. I don't deny that the car companies have been holding back, but I don't want to sacrifice hard working people who have very little options as to where they work, who work for a factory that is taking a cowardly way out, government bailout instead of making what they know the world wants. They do what they do at the hands of the people. They have the ability to make a high mpg car, they have the ability to market alternative energy!

I will admit right now, I worked for Arthur Andersen. I lost my job because of a few stupid people in Texas, I was not making millions, I was making 45k a year living in Washington, DC. It is time we stop thinking that somehow every one of the tens of thousands of people who just want to have a job represent a corporation. The CEOs deserve what they get, the rest at the bottom, do not.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

97. 1994 Dodge Shadow. Best car I ever owned. Beats my current Corolla by a long shot.

Had it not been totaled on the interstate after 147,000 terrific miles, I like to think I'd still be driving it.

[codjh9]

100. Yes, a lot of people bought big trucks and SUVs, thus making the Big Three keep churning out lots

more of 'em. But a lot of OTHER people were buying lots of Civics and Priuses and Accords and Camrys and so on, and with rising oil prices, Peak Oil, and many other reasons, the Big 3 kept their heads in the sand for the last 35 years while change was a 'comin'. So the fault lies with both the public AND the American auto makers.

[Atman]

112. Have you seen Toyota's and Nissan's trucks? Some of the biggest things on the road.

The Titan, the Infiniti (Toyota), et al, are some HUGE vehicles, and Toyota sold tons of them. At least GM and Ford offered a few small cars along with their sedans and SUVs. Chrysler's problem is different...they didn't even try to compete. A decade of super-crappy Neons, sold mostly to fleets before being dumped into the used market. Every other vehicle Chrysler made was a massive, bulky, cheap plastic penis-mobile.

.

[rhett o rick]

101. How did they get away with building cars that roll over so easy. Don't tell be their

engineers didn't warn them that their big SUV's were top heavy. They have no conscience's when they sell their SUV's encouraging mothers to think their children would be safer in a big SUV. And then they roll over at the first sign of trouble. Firestone's tires starting exploding because they weren't built to take the additional load of a large SUV tipping and putting so much side pressure on the tires. People died, children died, don't tell me the engineers didn't know don't tell me Ford didn't know. These people will kill children for profit. Damn them to hell.

[kwassa]

116. It is the high center of gravity on any tall vehicle

It is not so much being top-heavy, at least not deliberately so. It is a problem with all trucks and SUVs.

Lower vehicles with wider wheelbases are much less prone to rollover because the center of gravity is much lower.

[rhett o rick]

137. Thanks but I understand the physics, but my point is that GM and Ford designed and built vehicles

that were prone to rolling over and sold them as safe for mom to take the kids to soccer practice. The SUV's (or I call them ROV's, you figure it out) are killing people. In situations where regular cars could maneuver out of an unexpected situation with no consequences, these ROV's become out of control and many times roll over. Detroit built cars that are inherently dangerous. They knew it, their engineers told then of the dangers, yet they could only see the dollar signs. Don't bail them out.

[Atman]

138. Cars themselves are inherently dangerous.

Think about it...you strap yourself into 4000 pounds of steel, glass and plastic, sitting atop 20 gallons of highly explosive. Then you hurl yourself down a narrow strip of pavement at 70 miles per hour, just a few feet from 50 foot trucks, drunks, and a hundred other big fast-moving pieces of steel.

You're saying that they deliberately made the vehicles taller and more roll-prone. No, physics did that. And from the very beginnings of the SUV craze, I remember seeing reports about SUVs being taller and therefore more prone to roll-overs. It was a secret. It wasn't a conspiracy. It was just one of the "inherently dangerous" parts of driving.

.

[rhett o rick]

142. I agree of course that cars are dangerous. My point is that Detroit built

tall cars because they thought they would sell. But these cars were more dangerous than the standard cars. More people would die in these cars. Instead of building safer cars they built a more dangerous car. They have since made changes to reduce the roll over tenancy that they should have originally included. But the worst part is that instead of telling the public that these "handy" SUV's were more dangerous, they in fact promoted them as SAFER. Mom don't you feel so much safer when you drive your kids to school??? They put profits ahead of safety.

[CRF450]

153. Its not like they roll over when the driver turns the wheel fast.

Its mainly when they lose control of the vehicle, making it fishtail, when its sliding sideways all that top heavy momentum will make it roll. I'v seen this happen when someone in a small Toyota SUV veered off the road, she over corrected trying to get the SUV out of the grass too fast, the tires lost traction, it fishtailed all over the place and then rolled over. This is also usually the most common roll over accident with a truck or SUV, the driver doesn't pay attention to where there going, over correct then lose control. It happens all the time.

The problem is that alot of people dont know how to handle a big vehicle under emergency situations. I'v actually tried some quick maneuvers in my Dakota pickup truck in an empty parking lot to see what its limits are. It handles good for a truck but I can definitely feel it being top heavy, but when driven normally it almost feels like a car.

[dugaresa]

107. I have owned GM, Ford and Toyota vehicles.

The GM cars ran well and I traded the last one in to get a Toyota that is still running and is 10 years old...
My only Ford was a cheaper car, but it ran until the transmission started getting goofy at around 150K miles...

I am one of those hyper car owners who always gets the oil changed and takes care of my cars...

I would buy an American made fuel efficient car in a heartbeat when I am ready to spend the cash...but I am not right now.

[Marrah_G]

113. I drive a 2000 Caravan and it runs great

I've had it for 2 years and the only trouble I've ever had was a flat tire.

In a couple years when the boys are off at college, I plan to buy a small car and I will most likely buy and American brand.

[kwassa]

117. My only bad GM car had a Toyota engine that crapped out after 80,000 miles

1988 Chevy Nova, with a Toyota Corolla engine.

The rest of the American cars that I have owned have been pretty good.

[buckettgirl]

118. I own 03 Ford Escape and 92 Chevy Lumina

I have never owned anything other than "American" vehicles.

I LOVE my Escape, and as far as I am concerned, I will never drive another CAR again. Although it is a compact SUV, it still can haul loads, has good cargo capacity, has 4 wheel drive so I NEVER get stuck in the snow in my driveway anymore, and is the most comfortable vehicle I have driven (I am 6ft tall, so head room and leg room are important). I couldn't have made my last move without it. This is my everyday driver, commuter (I work 25 miles from where I live).

My husband drives the Lumina, which I must say, has been a standup vehicle. We inherited this car when my grandmother passed away in 2003. We are the third owners, and this car only had 66,000 miles in 2003 and was in very good shape. Well, now we are up to 135,000 and have done a head gasket replacement and are on the second set of spark plugs and wires within 3 years. My husband works in town, and this car gets the job done. It don't look pretty anymore, but runs fine. I can't complain.

I am hoping to buy a truck in the spring, preferably Chevy Silverado 1500 4x4 extended cab. This will be for my husband to use to go hunting, to haul firewood, and to go to haul items which are usually too large to fit in my Escape. It will be our third vehicle; and I am hoping that they way prices have dropped, I will get a steal of a deal. And I also think that people are wrong when they say Trucks are obsolete. Apparently those people only live in cities. Trucks will never be obsolete - especially in rural America. Someone always needs to haul something, or needs to be pulled out of a ditch, or wants help moving - who do they call??? Their friends with Trucks.

*BTW I am not anti-green or against environmentally better vehicles, and I do think that Detroit's automakers should have been working toward better solutions instead of fighting against it. I do plan to buy a Ford Escape Hybrid when I am ready replace my current Escape. But otherwise, until green options become practical and affordable, I gotta do what I gotta do. And I'm not buying foreign.

[Deep13]

120. I'm tired of it being true. nt

[ProfessorGAC]

125. On Washington Journal This Morning. . .

. . .Greta read something from the NYT that said GM sold more cars than any other manufacturer in the world.

And, they sold more of the 8.5 million new personal vehicles in the U.S. than any other company.

Somebody must be buying them. So, the statement "that nobody wants" is wrong on its face.
The Professor

[EnviroBat]

126. I am going to get smoked for this, but I believe that the root of

the problem is the worker. All US car makers are union shops. I support unions whole heartedly. Having said that, I believe that unions are granting their laborers a false sense of entitlement when it comes to their work habits and quality assurance. As a result, the quality of vehicles manufactured in union plants suffers. I have toured Ford plants in my younger years, and was astonished at the level of utter "who gives a fuckery" displayed by the workers. I have also worked on the assembly line at the Honda plant in Marysville Ohio, (a non-union shop). At Honda, you are on time every-time without fail. You take a personal stake in the quality of the job you are performing or you don't have a fucking job anymore. It's that simple. Try cross-threading a engine mount bolt, and you are sweating your ass off to fix it before the vehicle leaves you platform, and it damn-well better be right. You get three strikes, and you ass hits the door, at which time you are immediately replaced. Now, the unions in the US automakers shops protect people against this type of treatment. I believe the unions should protect a worker when something unfair is happening to them. But what is unfair is for a union to protect a worker who just doesn't give a shit about the job they are doing. Then to expect me to sink my fucking hard-earned money into a product which was produced by that person who doesn't give a shit is insulting. I think that a union should not only serve to protect the labor, but the consumer as well. Maybe if Ford and GM could learn this lesson they would find themselves selling a better quality product instead of peddling their disposable, 100,000 mi plasto-boxes that get shit for mileage.

We've all heard the old warning about trying to figure out which day of the week the car you're looking at was produced. It warns you that you don't want a car produced on Monday morning, or Friday afternoon. Shouldn't fucking matter what day of the week it was produced, and I can tell you that in the Honda plant, it never does. Fix the unions, fix the problems.

[ProfessorGAC]

127. Which 100k Miles Plastiboxes Would That Be?

I've had many American cars. Only one out of many did i not get over 160k miles, and that's because i traded it in when it only had 88k miles. I was going to be doing more driving and needed better mileage and a hatchback. Otherwise i'd have kept that.

Our extra car is a '95 Buick with 138k. Still runs perfectly.

My last car was a Chrysler LeBaron that is still being driven by friend and has >220k miles and still has no rust.

Everyone i look in a parking lots, there's loads of cars with tons of miles all made by GM, Ford and Chrysler. I think you are still thinking like it was 1974.

On the "union protecting the consumer too" idea: We agree.
The Professor

Edit for typo in title.

[snooper2]

128. Disclamer- Own 2006 Grand Prix

and a 1999 S-10 ( deciding on upgrading to Colorado vs. Tacoma ( Tacoma winning to date ))


Cobalt still has a long way to go...styling sucks- interior quality is crap- and you have to get the "SS" to make the ride fun at all...might as well get a Mazda 3 -zoom zoom zoom...

Oh, and compare a 2009 Cobalt to a 1998 Cavalier - In my mind, the 11 year older Cavalier has better styling :)

2009 Cobalt


1998 Cavalier

[StreetKnowledge]

129. My experiences

Are much the same as yours.

I do blame the management for being short-sighted, next quarter idiots. Detroit still happens to own 60+ percent of the US car market. Is that because of crappy cars? No, that is because some people did - and still do - want them.

I am the proud owner of a 2008 Pontiac G8. It's admittedly assembled in Australia, but its still a GM product. My parent both drive domestics, Mom a 2006 Chrysler Town and Country and dad a recently-bought 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe. Both are great cars. In dad's case, the Tahoe replaced a '00 Chevrolet Astro that gave him lots of trouble. But the Astro before that, an '85, ran forever. 18 years, 372,000 miles and two engines, before a drunk driver wrote hit him from behind on I-5. It drove well. Aside from the motor, it needed little more than routine maintenance, a new timing chain and a water pump at 235,000. Paint was well faded and interior was falling somewhat, but it was still drivable and strong.

Mom's Town and Country with its four wheel drive is damn near the ideal thing for Seattle where I grew up. Solid, comfortable, great traction, gets surprisingly good fuel mileage (the Tahoe does pretty well, too :o ) and mom loves it. Dad's new Astro he said when he picked it up "Man, where has this thing been all my life?" He wanted to go import after the '00 Astro, but after he drove the Tahoe he ordered one right there. My G8 is awesome. Fast, stylish, great to drive, gets astonishing fuel mileage (28 mpg in a car with a 6.2-litre V8 - no kidding) and turns heads. I absolutely love it. If I didn't have a girlfriend with a kid I might have wanted a Solstice (great car to drive), but the G8 is great. Brother also recently traded in a '05 Nissan Pathfinder after having problems with it. Transmission issues, the sat nav never worked right and, most shockingly, after eight months it was starting to rust! And this isn't Canada or the Midwest with its road salt either, this is Seattle we're talking about here. Guess what replaced it? A 2004 Cadillac CTS. Which in its 90,000 miles hasn't had one issue.

My Grandfather until he died two years ago drove a '85 Chevrolet Monte Carlo every day. That car now belongs to my 23-year-old cousin. It's on its THIRD engine. It has 485,000 miles now, and it will run forever I think. Even its freaking air conditioning still works!

Between that Pathfinder and mom's '91 Nissan Sentra GXE, we went back to domestics. My musclecar is a hoot, my brother is in love with his CTS and plans to buy a new one, Mom's Chrysler van is a great vehicle and my dad has to pinch himself every time he gets in his Tahoe - which I should point out, he got for considerably below MSRP. (The benefits of buying when gas prices are high, I think.)

Right now, I'm shacked up in a city just east of Toronto, Oshawa, which is home to a GM plant which employs 6000 and produces 450,000 vehicles a year. The GM employees here don't really enjoy the job, but they are paid well, they know it and they do their jobs well as a result. I am driving a Chevrolet Cobalt SS right now - and it feels like a front-drive version of my G8. It's great.

So, it always gets me riled up when I hear of these people saying "all GM builds is poor quality cars" or "they shouldn't have made all of those big gas-guzzling SUVs". My dad's Tahoe is a big SUV, but it gets surprisingly reasonable for its size fuel mileage (18-20 mpg in everyday driving) and there is lots of big SUVs. If people wanted these big trucks, they will buy the big trucks. Dad plays double bass, so he cannot drive a small car and carry a 7-foot-tall double bass. Some people need these bigger vehicles.

American vehicles, I think you'd find, have better bodies than Japanese rivals. I've heard that from many people, and my brother's Pathfinder is additional proof. GM's problems I believe stem from short-sighted management and healthcare and legacy costs. The healthcare costs the government really has to deal with. The management the company has to deal with.

But the myth that the imports all make better cars than Detroit is just that - a myth, and a totally false one. And people here who believe it and believe that Detroit only makes gas guzzlers need to get out and drive a Focus or a Cobalt, and change that opinion.

[toadzilla]

131. they killed their succesful electric car program and bought hummer instead.

its just been one bad decision after another thats brought them to where they are.

[anigbrowl]

190. Yeah,...I had a good laugh the other day at a commercial for a $24,5000 hummer H3

When I looked at them a year or 18 months ago you could lay hands on one for less than about $45k. I actually think Hummers have areason to exist, but only as heavy-duty commercial vehicles. Of course, the reason they sold so well for a while was that they were reclassified as 'light trucks' and came with a fat tax break, so lots of people bought them for city driving. Duuuuh.

[StreetKnowledge]

191. The electric cars cost $40,000 to buy.

This for a two-seater car that had a 70-80 mile range and took 5-6 hours to charge after that. It was just not viable. That's why the EV1 never lasted. The EV1 only existed because California demanded originally that one car of every ten sold in California by 1998 (then 2003) be zero emissions.

[lib2DaBone]

132. No one is buying a car because no one has a JOB

...I love the Lame Stream Media.. "Consumers are Cautious". Ya...consumers are broke becasue they no longer have a job.

[Better Believe It]

134. Bought A Used 2005 Buick Century In 2006 And Love It!

I and my wife love it. Absolutely no problems, it's comfortable and not so bad on gas.

I do see a Big 3 car on the road every once in awhile. Just have to look carefully! :) :)

How did they sell over 15 million cars a year if nobody bought them?

[underpants]

150. I did not know that they owned Ditech

still all their problems are from the top floors.

[Atman]

163. I guess that was the point of my OP...

All their problems are from the top floors.

There is a vital economic infrastructure built around the Detroit-based auto industry. They've built cars that people have wanted and purchased. Tens of millions of them. More than any carmakers in the world.

Yet, the "they're in this mess because they build cars people don't want" meme is everywhere. It's ludicrous. Millions of people buy their cars. And buy them again. And apparently like them.

It's the MANAGEMENT'S FAULT. Fire them all. Hang 'em up by the balls in Town Square. They're the ones who took world-dominating markets and drove them into this situation. Not the unions, not the consumers. THE MANAGEMENT.

Fuck THEM first. Fuck them hard. I'll be happy to accept sloppy seconds on this one.

.

[underpants]

165. to add to that

You are right they do sell cars. They have been selling cars that let people what else was out there some of which was the "Gee why are there all these other cars around me?"

My step-father was a car guy and he will tell you that the point isn't just selling one car it is selling two or three OR getting the family to continually come to you first.

[Overseas]

151. But marketing campaigns and tax breaks for purchasing gas guzzlers

can really drive the market quite a bit.

Lots of people bought the cars but there's a whole marketing apparatus that popularizes the gas guzzling tank cars in many ways. The campaigns can drive demand.

And if there's enough PR to create doubt about global warming (Exxon Mobil spent millions on that), then guys don't have to worry about that, they can go for the power of the SUVs and tankish cars.

[demokatgurrl]

195. Tax breaks came from the Bush admin, not the car co's

and it was wrong, indecent, immoral even, to encourage that kind of waste and oil gluttony.

[sir pball]

152. Had a '95 Ford Contour V6

It was a great car...up till 90,000 miles when it just sort of fell apart. Electrical problems, engine lost all sorts of power, tranny went to hell, the whole 9 yards.

Had a 94 Dodge Ram 2500 w/the Cummins diesel, a few quirky (expensive!) repairs but it was going great at 190 when it got sold.

Now, '07 Subaru Forester with 45k and still as quiet as the day I bought it, a '95 240SX with 135k that runs fine (anybody in central ME looking for a car?) and my primary good-weather DD, a 2000 Suzuki SV650S, 2500 miles, 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, and 51mpg!

Not that I won't buy American but they seem to have to trade off econobox reliability for good power. I know a kid with a 4cyl Contour going strong at over 200k, but the Sixes..

[XOKCowboy]

156. I love Ford Trucks.

My ol' '72 F250 would do anything and you could pretty much dismantle the engine with 4 wrenches and sit on the fender wall while you did it. My Dad's '69 F250 Camper Special took him to Baha twice and us all over the western Rockies when we were kids. It lives on with it's third engine as a feed truck on the ranch today. If I needed a pickup I'd buy a new F350 in a heartbeat. Of course I've seen a lot of guys buying big Toyota pickups lately and there's a rumor Toyota will introduce a diesel Tundra in '09. Toyota makes a good truck so it might spell trouble for the Big 3.

I totally agree about management. GM's chief has said that global climate change was a hoax and that mindset is why they're in trouble.

[XOKCowboy]

157. I love Ford Trucks.

My ol' '72 F250 would do anything and you could pretty much dismantle the engine with 4 wrenches and sit on the fender wall while you did it. My Dad's '69 F250 Camper Special took him to Baha twice and us all over the western Rockies when we were kids. It lives on with it's third engine as a feed truck on the ranch today. If I needed a pickup I'd buy a new F350 in a heartbeat. Of course I've seen a lot of guys buying big Toyota pickups lately and there's a rumor Toyota will introduce a diesel Tundra in '09. Toyota makes a good truck so it might spell trouble for the Big 3.

I totally agree about management. GM's chief has said that global climate change was a hoax and that mindset is why they're in trouble.

[Ohio Joe]

160. I love my T-bird

[HughMoran]

168. I only buy American cars myself

They are less expensive for me to maintain as I find them easy to work on and I do my own maintenance. My PT averages 27 MPG and has 4 doors and is easy to get in and out of with the kids and their stuff. My other car is a 21 year old Ford and I love it - Ford had good quality cars in the late 80's.

[madmom]

171. We bought a new s10 blazer in 1991 had it up until last year, had 200,000 miles when

we sold it to a friend who still uses it on his car repair lot to push cars around that won't start. The only reason we sold it was it had to much rust on the bottom of the doors "wet" got in.That vehicle paid for it self and then some!

[tomreedtoon]

172. Okay. No one SMART bought Detroit cars.

Does that clarification make you happy? Sheesh.

But just because they sold a lot of Detroit Rust to idiots didn't mean they could keep doing it. And eventually, even stupid people realized that they didn't need to buy a new car every couple of years from the Michican Mafia, just because their rattletrap wasn't fashionable any more.

To prove this, let's normalize relations with Cuba and get some of the Cuban car mechanics here. They've been isolated, and they've kept American cars from the 1940's and 1950's going. They're the only cars Cuba has. They are talented mechanics, used to working with the far sturdier cars of a bygone era. Let's see if they can do as well with the current round of crap from GM.

[ProfessorGAC]

175. I'm Smart. I Bought Them

I'm educated too. Three advanced degrees in three different fields.

Yet, every single US car i've bought has run great for a minimum of 150k miles.

Hmmmm. . . I must be the luckiest car buyer of all time.
The Professor

[Atman]

178. You're a fool. That is the only thing you clarified.

The very cars you seem to be saying are so much better than "American cars" are the SAME FUCKING CARS as their American counterparts. Volvo's are built almost entirely out of FORD parts and platforms. Saabs are built almost entirely out of GM parts and platforms. The list goes on and on. They're all the same fucking cars.

Which gets back to the original point...let's get off this "people didn't want them because they were crap" crap. It's CRAP. People wanted them, people bought them by the tens of millions. And even the snobs who thought they were buying premium foreign brands were BUYING GM AND FORD CARS.

It's not a question of the brand or the quality anymore. They're all the same, to a large degree. What we're talking about now is bailing out BAD MANAGEMENT.

.

[ProfessorGAC]

180. Bad Management Is Right

That's the problem. Not the products. The marketing strategy was horrible.

The resistance to take the lead in altering the market and taking some chances in product introduction was a big problem.

The pricing structure was a problem.

Those are, as you said, management problems. Develop poor strategy and tactics and you suffer in the business. Not one line worker had a thing to do with that nor did the designers or engineers.
The Professor

[StreetKnowledge]

192. Lots of SMART people bought Detroit cars.

My family's rides have been a majority American. We've had a couple dogs ('86 Taurus and '00 Astro) but most of the rest ('85 Monte Carlo, '95 Neon, '85 Astro, '88 Cavalier, '92 Corvette, '99 Grand Prix, '79 Firebird) have served us well. My family's Detroit iron - my Pontiac G8, my brother's Caddy CTS, Dad's Chevy Tahoe, Mom's Chrysler Town and Country, my cousin's '99 Pontiac Grand Prix (which was mine) and a host of others we have now are all solid performers.

So get off the high horse, folks. Detroit and the guys that work for it do make good cars. If the media stopped running their mouths about Detroit only making gas guzzlers they would get better pretty quick, I think.

[CRF450]

198. How's the Pontiac G8?

I'd like to test drive one of those one day soon.

[yurbud]

176. a lot of good lefties rushed out to buy GM's EV-1 electric car. If it was still available...

I'd buy one.

GM responded to people giving that product a chance by lobbying to change the regulation that forced them to make the car and them taking back all the cars from their owners.

[yurbud]

179. It's generational. Baby Boomers can remember American cars they liked, Xers can't

I grew up riding in the back seat of Monzas, Vegas, and Pintos. They were uncomfortable, poorly made, and unreliable. Sometimes my parents had VW Bugs, which had none of those problems and my high school friends had Toyotas, which also simply just worked.

That made such an impression on my formative years that buying an American car would be like moving in with an abusive alcoholic relative who beat and molested you as a kid but claims they've changed their ways. You think it might actually be true, but you simply don't want to take the risk.

Maybe American companies have a shot at the next generation, but apart from pick up trucks or unless they make a product as radical as the EV-1 again and actually sell it (not just make a gee whiz concept car that never makes it to anyone's driveway), they have lost me for life.

[Romulox]

186. It's REGIONAL. Sunbelt residents feel they can appease the "free market" with a sacrifice

If the sacrifice is the industrial midwest, the feeling is that the sunbelt will be spared.

[yurbud]

194. Midwest sees it as loyalty to workers, everywhere else sees it as misplaced loyalty to corporations

who don't make products we want.

The companies would probably do better if they were nationalized and got the MBA's out of there altogether.

[anigbrowl]

193. Motorcycles offer an interesting parallel

So you want an American motorcycle? Well you could get a Harley, or a few people ride an Indian. Now me, I would never ride a Harley in a million yers. For one thing they're just too big for my taste - I'm a fairly skinny guy and I really don't want a bike that weighs so much more than I do.For another, I'm not into the engine noise. And for a third, they only make cruiser-style bikes. I'm not really into racing bikes either, but I prefer something I can lean over and throw around a bit, and a Harley really ain't it. Indian brand motorcycles are nicer to my eyes, but they're certainly as much of a luxury product as Harleys.

There is a company called Buell that makes racing, street, and adventure bikes at fairly reasonable prices, but they're all at or near 1000cc...so they're not on my list, as I don't really care for anything bigger than a 650. And they're not exactly high profile - don't know what their market share is but I've seen very few Buell bikes.

So what are my alternatives? Japanese bikes, or Italian if I was feeling sporty. Some people like BMW bikes, though I'm not one of them. But what's a mystery to me is why there's no big American company even competing in the mid and small motorbike classes. I know there's a market for these because I see them all over the place, and a quick look at eBay shows a thriving secondary market for such bikes.

It's not the same, but I'm reminded of US carmakers' emphasis on SUVs and luxury sedan's in recent years...when all I want out of a car is that it runs cheap and reliably, and don't really care for a bunch of extra features. It's idiotic to me that cars like the Ford Fiesta (a subcompact that's been a steady seller in Europe since the 80s) just aren't on the market here (they plan to start selling it next year). If you were here in the states and you wanted a small getaround in the last 10 years...you were probably better off buying a little Honda or something.

[CRF450]

197. Check out the Kawasaki Ninja 650r.

Its a sport bike but not a "super" sport bike. Has a parallel twin cylinder engine, and it will get up and go! It'll take on a 600cc super sport bike from 0-60mph (3.5 seconds) but any faster than that, the super sports will walk away when they get up in the high rpm's. Its good on gas too getting around 60mpg.

[anigbrowl]

204. I actually have asoft spot for old honda 400/4s...

Thought lately I'e been thinking about a Kawasaki. I haven't ridden them much but I liked the ones I did ride.

[leftofthedial]

201. they made some pretty good cars, that got crappy gas mileage

that no one bought

[sray2007]

203. I wish Detroi won't under the depression too much

[MissMarple]

206. We buy Fords.

In my immediate family we have four. :)

[LiberalEsto]

207. Our 1992 Toyota Corolla is still running

But we got rid of our 1993 Dodge Caravan in 2000 after 5 transmissions and numerous other problems. I think that explains my problem with American cars in a nutshell.

That said, I've soured on Toyota. Our 2005 Matrix is has an extremely shoddy interior and exterior. It seems to be running okay, knock wood, but the paint scratches if you LOOK at it.

[Lorien]

208. People want to buy American, unfortunately Amercian car co. CEOs

keep pushing crap products because they're profitable. You'll ultimately make more money from a car that needs frequent repairs than one that doesn't My family bought American cars for decades until we just couldn't afford them anymore, and turned to Toyota and Honda (both built here in America).