Gay Marriage . . .

[stellanoir]

I deeply feel this matter is none of our collective business whatsoever.

There are simply, far bigger issues with which we can incessantly preoccupy ourselves. . .

Maybe like . . . ugh. . . war and peace, and creation versus destruction, amelioration versus obvious and blatant thievery, helping others versus taking merciless advantage of others . . .

As someone who has studied Jungian psychology, I'm well aware of the fact that from that perspective, we all may just have male and female aspects of our inner selves.

So who cares if one is drawn to another of allegedly same sex orientation or not.

What people do in private willingly is no business of ours.

More to the point, I'm far more concerned about whether a relationship is mutually supportive instead of dreadfully hurtful.

In my work, I see healthy and hear about the unhealthy of both hetro and same sex orientations all the time.

The continually edited Bible says nothing absolutely nothing about people of same sex orientation.

The repeated issue of non consensual involvement amongst allegedly stalwart members of the political and supposed religious community bely this feigned outrage and over reactiveness.

This is nothing more than an unbelievably stupid and idiotic wedge issue which is hurting individuals deeply.

That sort of behavior is not even remotely "Christian."

"Live and let live."

Let people do what they want and make the commitments that they feel are appropriate for themselves.

That's always a very delicate process. May the government stay the heck out of it and what people do privately does not impede upon anyone's private hetro bond, really. We could perhaps be more mindful of our crumbling infrastructure, our sucky economy, and our failed educational system, disfunctional health care structure, and our Earth herself.

Or, as a dear friend told me today, he saw a sign from a protest today that read, "I didn't get to vote on your marriage."

Some relationships simply work out. Some do not.

As most people know, family court can be a bit of an oxymoron.

Go figure.

It's always a grand mystery dance of enormous proportions, regardless of what particular genders are involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noBnTraU0FM












,

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

1. A friend of mine said something similar the other day.

He said, "This is ridiculous. It's 2008. Why do we still have issues with who marries who as long as everyone's consenting?"

[stellanoir]

2. Bingo & thanks

Couldn't agree more.

:)

[shireen]

3. " ... this matter is none of our collective business whatsoever"

and in 2008, it is ridiculous that we have to fight for the right to make it nobody's business.

[stellanoir]

8. Well perhaps will remain in judgement for a while longer.

Let's hope for the best by 2012. :)

[AntiFascist]

4. Hear, hear....

words of wisdom.

Even with the much larger issues, the Christian Right seems to be taking the wrong side with respect to neoconservatism. Creative destruction? Killing in the name of oil, using Islamic extremism as an excuse? It wasn't too long ago that conservative Reaganites were praising the Muslim God when they were fighting the Godless communists.

[stellanoir]

9. There is nothing remotely in these policies of extremism.

[kevinbgoode]

5. Well, the people duped into voting for this heinous amendment. . .

Perhaps the most foolish thing about the voters supporting this proposition is that they just damaged their own marriages and own rights. Just remember the Schiavo marriage and how the same Religious Right groups demanded the state dissolve the marriage AGAINST the will of the parties. Yes, indeed - let's keep voting to give the state more rights to dissolve marriages without the permission of the couple involved, shall we?


It amazes me how anyone would vote their own individual rights away.

[AntiFascist]

6. The gay marriage ruling actually strengthened the institution of marriage...

by making it a Fundamental Right of all citizens. Prop 8 makes it only a right of some citizens, which may end up weakening it if the CA Supreme Court rules that marriages should only be recognized within the Church, and from now on the State can only grant Civil Unions.

[stellanoir]

11. Separation of church and state might just be a more than mild consideration.

signed,

an old buddy of Roger Williams'.

[kevinbgoode]

14. Exactly. And if the Court does that, I would think it very prudent

for the state legislature to immediately remove the word "married" from all of the state statutes, and move to order those who "marry" be legally bound to the laws of the Church. The State will no longer be in the business of operating divorce courts except for those in civil unions.

I'll bet you'd see an immediate drop in church weddings.

[stellanoir]

10. Yeah me too.

It's mind boggling really.

[hunter]

7. This is a huge issue because it is a civil rights issue.

Authoritarian religions seek to break down the Constitutional separations of church and state and increase their own political power.

It's not just about the civil rights of gay couples, it's about the civil rights of EVERYONE.

I do not want to live in some hellish cooperative theocracy where various religious authorities decide which of my freedoms they will take away for "my own good."

We all have to fight this. If you believe in the freedom to practice your own religion or the freedom to reject religion, this is the biggest issue of the day.

[stellanoir]

12. It's HUGE

Yikes

[Cerridwen]

13. Ah, Stella. I agree and disagree at one and the same time.

I am a Libra Sun with a Capricorn Ascendant and a Cancer Moon. Do with that what you will.

Yes, it's not our collective business. -and- Yes, it has been made our collective business.

The very same values that promote militarism, manifest destiny, people's rights over animal rights, one group's rights over another group's rights, is the exact...EXACT same mind set, meme, that justifies war, manifest destiny, might makes right, and "peace is for pussies." (I read that sig line on another board. I presume the inverse is "war is for dicks.").

The very values we hold and proscribe based on group rule are the very values as individuals that hold us hostage to group rule.

In short, we cannot defend one without justifying the other; that which is above, so is below. That which manifests in the macro-view also manifests in the micro-view. They are not separate but one in the same. To try to separate them out as though they exist despite the other is what brought us to this point in history.

We live in a "both/and" world. That which we believe on the micro level is reflected at the macro level; and back again. They are part of the web of life. It is impossible to de-tangle one from the other. Until we address our issues as both/and rather than either/or (a paradox in and of itself), we will not progress but only stay stuck in the world of binary thought.

That which we believe as individuals determines that which we believe as a group which determines that which we believe as individuals which determines that which we believe as a group which determines...and the circle continues. They are one...and the same. We cannot address and enlighten one without the 'other.'

"As Above, so Below. As Within, so Without. So Mote it Be."

edit for an "s"

[stellanoir]

15. You make some very good points.

I care about this country very deeply and loathe what has happened in recent years.

It's disgusting to this maternally 13th generational American.

Without knowing your specific degrees, I'll say nothing about your chart.

Aside from the fact that we all have to transcend seemingly intractable dualism right now.

Peace on.

[Cerridwen]

16. Peace on.

Indeed.

10/12/1957 in the region of LV, NV. 11:55 a.m. I was polite about my time of arrival even as a 'fetus.' :D

I'm not multi-generational "American." And I am a PIA (pain in the a$$) cynic/skeptic of various levels.

Yes, we do need to transcend dualism; but we're not yet there. I would love to believe that we are; but we aren't. Our consciousness raising all but ended with the advent of the reagan/limbaugh era of propaganda. We are only as strong as our weakest link. I know you know that. I'm not sure if we've yet arrived at that "tipping point." I presume we have not yet...quite.

Call me a 'new' soul. Call me an 'old' soul worn out with the petty disputes of un-enlightened souls.

We cannot view one without the other though we may try. We are all individuals debating our connectedness. It's sloppy. Painful. And true.

As much as I would like to believe we are an enlightened species, I see much that makes lies of those beliefs. I cannot, as much as I would like, live in the utopia in which I believe we can aspire, I am also aware that we do not yet have a 'perfect' world. Hell, we don't yet have a consensus of a definition of 'perfect.' In the interim, we must needs live in the world between worlds.

[I Have A Dream]

17. As usual, you make some very good points, my friend.

Until this vote, I never really felt the urge to step into this battle. That changed when I saw so many people here in such pain at experiencing the loss of a basic right that they had just been "granted". (It should never have had to be "granted"!)

My heart hurts for those who have been devastated by this outcome, and I'm no longer sitting outside of this battle simply rooting for them; I'm stepping into the battle myself now. x(

[autorank]

18. That was what was going on in California until "the Church Lady" came along

Isn't it strange. California had a law and custom that didn't have people worked up enough to
do much until "the Church Lady" showed up; the butt-in-ski who just can't keep quiet and mind their
own business. I doubt if there are many gay people in California who want to insert their presence
in the lifestyle of those to blame for this nonsense but that doesn't matter. It is not a live and
let live world for some. Some among us have objectified our opponents to the point where they're
not human beings worthy of individual beliefs and behavior. What a shame for the gay community and
what a comment on the so called religious faction.

k*r