Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church, claims bishop

[Are_grits_groceries]

University-educated Catholics are to blame for the crisis in the Church and the growth of secularism, according to the bishop charged with tackling the decline in Mass attendance.
The Rt Rev Patrick O'Donoghue, the Bishop of Lancaster, has claimed that graduates are spreading scepticism and sowing dissent. Instead of following the Church's teaching they are "hedonistic", "selfish" and "egocentric", he said.

In particular, the bishop complained that influential Catholics in politics and the media were undermining the Church.

While not naming names, he suggested that such people had been compromised by their education, which he said had a "dark side, due to original sin".

Prominent Catholics in public life include Mark Thompson, the BBC's director general, and Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister.

Bishop O'Donoghue, who has recently published a report on how to renew Catholicism in Britain, argued that mass education has led to "sickness in the Church and wider society".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3464073/Educated-Catholics-have-sown-dissent-and-confusion-in-the-Church-claims-bishop.html

This is the UK, but I doubt if some Bishops in the US don't feel the same way. It seems that a lot of religious "leaders" have either gone off of their meds or need to take some.

[dbackjon]

1. The Church used to rule by keeping the masses uneducated

And preaching in a language none of the masses knew.

Some look like they want that to return.

[EFerrari]

25. And by persecuting those who sought to educate the people. . . .

[Retrograde]

36. one of the reasons I left

I was raised in a very traditional, old world parish where most of the parishioners were 2nd generation Americans. The pastor was steeped in the tradition that the only educated - the only literate person - around was the priest. Everyone should listen to what he said, no disagreements allowed. On anything. Just like any other tin-pot dictator.

Now, intellectually I know all priests aren't like that, but they're taught in a system that enforces the belief that they're god's chosen. Hard to be humble in a situation like that.

There does seem to be a strong negative correlation between education and unthinking support of religious systems.

[CatholicEdHead]

41. That would be the Church as a "perfect society" as they say in the seminaries

Going head to head with one ultra conservative seminarian on another part of the internet it is amazing how full of themselves those types are.

[geckosfeet]

2. Please sit on your pointy little mitre bishop. eom

[ogneopasno]

3. These people don't listen to themselves, do they?

[malaise]

46. They only listen to themselves and actually believe they

are omnipotent. Men like the bishop walk around and expect 'the faithful' to kiss his ring. Think about that for a moment. These people sicken my stomach. Fuck all religion.

Still he speaks the truth - only ignorance facilitates their survival.

[crim son]

4. And people wonder why the Church doesn't aways get rave reviews.

God help us from His/Her/Its followers.

[TlalocW]

5. Damn movable type, translation of the Bible into common languages, and public education!

They all made it harder to force the opinions of the religious elite down the the throat of the unwashed masses, sell them indulgences, and carry on boinking pre-teen boys!

TlalocW

[TygrBright]

6. I think the Bish is gonna get a spanking from Rome...

Actually, the Church has a pretty solid commitment to education and if you look at some of the world's most effective (and liberal!) higher education institutions you'll find the Catholic Church in some way responsible for starting and/or maintaining them.

The whole "education spoils Catholics" sheeboo is NOT the Official Line, which is more along the lines of (to roughly paraphrase) "We need Catholics well-educated in order to effectively oppose all the well-educated evil out there in the Big Bad World. We have nothing to fear from education, our job is to ensure that the best education out there is essentially Catholic-- including science and the humanities."

And in truth, the Church has produced some notable scientists and educators. (The guy who formulated the Big Bang Theory, for one...)

I carry no brief for the Church and its archaic patriarchal world view and its determined and purblind oppression of half of humanity, but I do think we need to have a clear-eyed view of it as it is.

This is NOT "Official Catholicism." This is one nutzoid Bishop pulling crap out of his anal orifice.

clarifyingly,
Bright

[YOY]

7. Damn right

:thumbsup:

[zipplewrath]

17. Yes and no.

As much as I agree with what you wrote, there is a fundamental flaw in your analysis. It presents the church, and its history, as monolythic. It is not, and never has been, true despite their best efforts. The Jesuits, who have had a huge impact on the western catholic church, took the attitude you describe. However, other sects weren't nearly as concerned about education. I believe the Benedictines were one that thought there was only certian knowledge that was necessary. The reason for the continued connection between catholicism and education can acutally be traced back to their continued use of the latin language for governance. It was necessary to teach latin to a broad scope of people as some sort of "second language". That education made people literate which made them powerful. It allowed people across wide cultural spans to communciate knowledge from outside their own cultures. And ultimately literate people leads to study of new knowledge. It also tends to mean that ones children will also be educated.

The problem the catholic church is having, and the reason this particular bishop is speaking as he does, is that the catholic theology is not based upon logic and observation. It is based upon tradition. When they ran things they could control the traditions. They no longer run things and so traditions have moved on and they have not kept pace. They are still arguing the latin mass when the world is arguing stem cell research. The world is dealing with issues of fertility and genetic knowledge at conception and they are arguing against condoms. At best they are about a 16th century church in a decidedly 21st world.

This bishop can argue all he wants, but THE primary attraction of the church today is the ability of parents to "teach" knowledge to their children. Admittedly, it is predominately a knowledge of "values" which the parents hold. But it is not actually the theology which the church would like to teach, but more universal basic moral principals which the parents actually embrace. You can watch adults attendance at church rise and fall with the aging of their families. The vast majority of the church members don't even know the catholic theology (ask them what the immaculate conception refers to some time) and have no interest in learning.

[old mark]

22. I do remember, though, that pope benny said that US

catholics who had questions with his church should become episcopalians...
My 2 brothers, my sister and I were born catholics. As adults, we are 2 don't care's, one fairly rabid athiest, one episcopal deacon.

I guess we took benny's advice....

mark

[kiranon]

8. Are you uneducated enough to be Catholic? Is this what he is saying?

What nonsense. Will they shut down the great Catholic Universities next?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. That's fucked up.

And yet some of the best universities in the U.S. are Catholic. Does the bishop want to close them down?

[Joe Chi Minh]

10. Would did you not choose to be honest in writing your post, prefacing your correct

ascription to the Bishop of his words to the effect that mass education has led to "sickness in the Church and wider society", with his own prefatory comment:

"- resulting in economic growth, scientific and technological advances, and the cultural and social enrichment of billions of people's lives," he said;


...as in, "What we have witnessed in Western societies since the end of the Second World War is the development of mass education on a scale unprecedented in human history - resulting in economic growth, scientific and technological advances, and the cultural and social enrichment of billions of people's lives," he said.

Well. It would indicate precisely the contrary to what you have sought to convey.

Note the words. "enrichment of billions of people's lives". Not impoverishment" or "blighting" or "debasement". Truth matters when inveighing against a spiritual leader.

[Cerridwen]

14. And then goes on to say

"However, every human endeavor has a dark side, due to original sin and concupiscence. In the case of education, we can see its distortion through the widespread dissemination of radical scepticism, positivism, utilitarianism and relativism.

"Taken together, these intellectual trends have resulted in a fragmented society that marginalizes God, with many people mistakenly thinking they can live happy and productive lives without him.

"It shouldn't surprise us that the shadows cast by the distortion of education, and corresponding societal changes, have also touched members of the Church. As Pope Benedict XVI puts it, even in the Church we find hedonism, selfishness and egocentric behavior."

[Joe Chi Minh]

38. Precisely. What many on here consider liberalism the Catholic Church deems licence.

There is a conflict. We are all supposed to favour liberal causes generally on DU, but one person's liberalism is another person's licence; one person progressiveness is another person's regressiveness.

I try to avoid attacking the social liberalism on here, partly because it can hurt good people who have been misled by secular fundmentalism (to which secularism eventually leads) and partly because it is a diversion from the most pressing issue of all on DU -physical survival. My priorities here are different from those of the bishop in his context, but sometimes when I see a gross misrepresentation, I point it out.

[skooooo]

11. Education always fucks things up for the orthodoxy...

...whatever the orthodoxy happens to be.

[whirlygigspin]

12. next thing ya know, muslims will think for themselves too

education the enemy of religion? that's a new one

next your gonna tell me that you can translate ancient Egyptian hyrogliphs and they don't match the morons fables either.

"I have magic underwear too!"


as day is to night

this from the reality based community, from yesterday

http://www.gracecathedral.org/mp3/sermon/ser_20081116.mp3

[mudesi]

13. Oh no! Not education! (nm)

:eyes:

[dorkulon]

15. Karl Rove on education:

"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans - unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing."

[Ichingcarpenter]

16. The Sun doesn't revolve around the Church- Excommunicate the educated

And Start with Galileo!

[tanyev]

18. Damn them edumacated elite and their fancy-pants book-larnin'!

[CatholicEdHead]

19. It is also going against the tradition of bishops as above others and not peers

Education brings most people in the pews to a level where they are peers, not subordinates. Peers ask questions, you earn respect with peers by your ideas, not the office you hold.

The ultra-"orthodox" wing of the Catholic Church is small but very vocal, connected, and has large pockets.

No we cannot turn the Church back to the Middle Ages he wants so all questions quietly go by the wayside as nobody will know enough to answer it.

It goes back to the current movement in that the People have to serve the Church, not how it has been for most of a century where the Church serves the People.

[Marrah_G]

20. Boston College- Holy Cross- Notre Dame- I'm thinking they might find these statements odd.

[Lucy Goosey]

21. Oh noes!!!11!! The peasants are thinking for themselves!1!!1

:rofl:

[closeupready]

23. Couldn't have anything to do with the pedophilia scandals, could it?

n/t

[PlanetBev]

24. That's right, keep the masses uneducated

So you can keep them under control and take their money for another millennium.

[Nikki Stone1]

26. Those damned sciences and humanities, making people think and all

LOL!!!!!

[Karenina]

27. BURN 'EM AT THE STAKE!!!

:hide:

[baby_mouse]

28. Well, there it is. Them thar book-learnin' folks gotta DARK SIDE. Just like the Force, dudes. NT

[dkofos]

29. Duh. That's what happens with educated people. They start to question

the bullshit the church spews.

[Burma Jones]

30. Galileo and Copernicus had this sort of trouble......

Quick, can you name the Clergymen that persecuted them?

[marmar]

31. Yeah, we like 'em dumb and sheep-like......

The Catholic Church hierarchy is determined to make their institution irrelevant as quickly as they possibly can.

[rocktivity]

32. Reminds me of how educated African Americans were defined as

"Uppity."

:eyes:
rocknation

[Gin]

33. I was raised Catholic...it served me well as a child.....until I started questioning

some things...once that happens...it's the beginning of calling oneself a Catholic.
also...why be affiliated with a religion that treats females as second class citizens?

[Eurobabe]

34. Sorry but fuck the Church

like people have pointed out, they want people to look at the shadows on the cave wall and believe it's reality.

[arcadian]

35. The Catholic Church should be overjoyed, we've entered a new dark age.

That's gotta count for something.

[ladjf]

37. Damn that education. It keeps interfering with our ability to fool people.

nt

[TexasObserver]

39. Gee, a feudal lord in a feudal church doesn't want the peasants educated.

I'm shocked.

God only knows what the fiefs will do when they find out the goofy looking old men in funny robes are really full of shit.

[MisterP]

40. ohhhh, he's gonna get whomped by the Jesuits, crowbar-waving Oxbridge chaplains, a zombie Aquinas nt

[CatholicEdHead]

42. Kick

:kick:

[mgc1961]

43. Many present and former...

...Catholics are fed up with Rome's increasingly hardheaded fiats. (No pun intended)

[PinkoDonkey]

48. Exactly.

I remember the nuns (sisters of notre dame) teaching us that The Church is not a building, it is the people of the church. Lots of rumblings. Things that in previous years had just been left unsaid are now being muttered or even spoken about between friends. I'm wondering when those people will take some matters in to their own hands instead of just dropping out completely or ignoring/disobeying of a small number of specific issues.

Then again, I once had a priest say point blank that "The Church is NOT a democracy."

We'll see, I guess. I'm also wondering how much generational conflict within the church in America and how much conflict between the Church in the global North versus the global South (a la the Anglican Communion) might be obscured by the Vat and the occasional random bishop's ran?

[saltpoint]

44. Yeah! Them durn intellectuals just cause trouble just about everyplace.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. Uppity Catholics now... will it never stop?

First you go and educate them. Then they start getting all sorts of ideas in their heads, and they stop just doing whatever they're told!

We simply cannot have this!

Makes you wonder if this isn't somehow connected to the push to force Catholic colleges and universities in the US to tow the line wrt Catholic dogma and doctrine and stop being so darned academically open. Wouldn't take long if that happens until those schools are pretty cruddy...


Oh, I also wonder, what would the good bishop's educational background consist of?

[cooolandrew]

47. Education should only mean the church should evolve with developed thinking or simply be left >

behind to the realms of history. It's fine to be christian or catholic but to understand that it dictates their personal lives and not anyone else around them.

[McCamy Taylor]

49. Boycott Catholic schools and universities!

[xchrom]

50. r-i-g-h-t -- education -- that's the problem.t

[lovuian]

51. In the old days the Church would let the Inquisition

kill them off but now we have rights

[knitter4democracy]

52. The first school in the US was a Catholic school.

They built the school before they built the church down in Florida, long before any other group came in and started building schools.

He can kiss this former Catholic educator's ass.