Do you accept the general findings of The Warren Commission Report? Y/N

[bobthedrummer]

That Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin of President John F. Kennedy, that there was no conspiracy, no one assisted Lee Harvey Oswald in the murder, etc.

Put your thoughts about those findings of The Warren Commission in this thread.

There are many effects still with US from 45 years ago from those shots fired in Dallas.

Personally, I never believed any of The Warren Commission Report when it came to denying a conspiracy and placing sole responsibility on Lee Harvey Oswald.

A former US Marine defects to the USSR during the height of the Cold War, marries a KGB Colonel's niece, is readmitted to the US, is involved in radical politics promoting Fidel Castro's revolutionary Cuba and then kills President Kennedy all by himself???

What are your views on this as we approach the 45th year after President Kennedy was assassinated.

[Junkdrawer]

1. Magic Bullet zig-zags through two bodies and is later found on the gurney...

in pristine condition, ready for a ballistics match...

:eyes:

[WritersBlock]

19. My first thought exactly. n/t

[NutmegYankee]

21. Actually false.

The bullet did not zig zag, it traveled in a straight trajectory, and was deformed (became more oval shaped) in a manor expected for traveling through flesh. Bullets shot into ballistics gel deform only a little, versus a bullet into a steel backstop. It's all about the distance required to stop the round. As for the Zig zag, that has been debunked over and over again. Both men were not sitting straight in front of one another, since the seats in the back are narrower together and at a different height than those just in front (middle row).

[JuniperLea]

29. Gel and bone are two different things...

There were bone hits. Bone hits disfigure lead a lot more than gel.

[NutmegYankee]

46. ...

[JuniperLea]

89. A view from the rear means nothing...

I'd need to see the tip. Even a copper jacket would give considerably under the pressure of hitting bone.

Having come from a hunting family, I've seen many copper jacketed rounds of various caliber that have hit flesh and those that have hit bone.

[MadHound]

32. Hmm, that's interesting

Especially since the artist depiction of the prosecution's theory concerning how the bullet traveled looks rather, well, zig-zagish:shrug:


Now then, if you're going to contend, as the prosecution does and forensic evidence shows, that the bullet smashed through a wrist bone, after ricocheting off a collar or shoulder bone, then you should have a bullet that is seriously deformed, not just oval, but smashed and blunted. Instead, we have this.


These are but two of the many huge holes in the Warren Commission report. Holes so big that when Congress revisited the issue in 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations found the there were at least four bullets fired, thus making the assassination a conspiracy. Yes, our own government contradicted itself, found the Warren Commission report to be so much hot air, and officially declared JFK's assassination the result of a conspiracy. That is the official finding

So, what, besides a disproven whitewash do you have to back up the lone nut theory?

[Junkdrawer]

33. Thanks...

:hi:

[MadHound]

38. No prob, we haven't had a good JFK go around for awhile

But that's not surprising, what with the election and all.:hi:

[NutmegYankee]

45. The picture is flat out wrong.

The trajectory has been recreated from the film footage in digital recreations over and over again (ABC and Discovery Channel both great examples) and has been explained. That Graphic you showed is just wrong!

Second, you only show one view of the bullet, from the widened side. How about being honest and showing the bullet looking down the length? Not so pristine is it?

[MadHound]

49. It is the artistic rendering of the time,

It is part of the official record, it was accepted as evidence. One can recreate any situation in order to portray action using CGI, that is, after all, what animation is all about and why it's such a big hit as the medium for fantasy tales. I've seen those little CGI fantasies on television and had to laugh. Tell you what, you explain to me how they are extrapolating evidence from a case forty years gone, and show me the code that drives their "models" and then we'll see just how valid these propaganda pieces are.

Speaking of which, I find it interesting that you present the view of the base of the bullet, you know, the end that takes a beating from force of the explosion. Here's the view of the tip of the bullet, you know, the end that should be all mangled up after smashing through bone, flesh and more bone.



Hmm, looks rather pristine there eh? So let's review here, the end that you showed looks pretty normal, since it is the base and took the force of the exploding gunpowder. The nose, which we see above looks clean as a whistle, even though it supposedly went through bone and flesh.

Please, don't try the stupid shit again, there are years and decades of research out there, we've all got access to the same pictures and most people who know this case know what they're looking at. All you're doing is making yourself look foolish with this shit.

Really, cartoons and the butt end of a bullet, is that all you've got?

[NutmegYankee]

52. Don't kid yourself.

You actually think I care what a conspiracy theorist thinks about me? The same people who come up with theories that a nuke or a magic death ray from space blew up the twin towers? Oh god, I'm real "concerned".

The bullet question is easy to address - did the rib that was hit get hit dead on or by the side of the bullet? And again, would the wrist bones provide enough resistance to mangle the bullet, or did the bullet just tear right on through or caught the ligaments in between?

As for the "cartoons", you appear to place your faith on the technology of the Warren commission, I place mine on digital technology. I'd bet on digital tech any day. Just what do you think the warren commission based their results on? Oh right, same film.

[MadHound]

55. Oh those darn conspiracy theorists!

Always messing up a good story line. Interesting tactic there, we're discussing facts, bullet conditions and such, and all the sudden you try to blow it all up with a strawman about 911. Please, stick with the topic at hand and stop trying to erect a strawman to cover your sorry ass.

As far as the damage from a bullet that hits bone, unless it is a very glancing blow, a bullet will mangle severely upon impact with any bone larger the the finger bones. I've a cousin, a police captain, and I've seen the proof of this personally. If you care to investigate forensic literature, you will find the same. This information is out there, from non-biased sources like peer reviewed journals if you simply care to peruse it.

Oh, I know what the Warren Commission based their report on, the same sort of hot air and horseshit you're peddling. That's why I don't put my faith in the Warren Commission report, but rather the hard nosed, reality based scientific evidence, the same sort that convinced the US government that the JFK shooting was indeed the work of a conspiracy.

But hey, if you want to hang on to your precious misconceptions because you can't handle the truth, who am I to say otherwise:shrug:

[NutmegYankee]

57. So you know what your talking about because of your counsin?

:eyes:


I'm done with you.

[MadHound]

59. LOL!

That's it, ignore the rest of the post, just like you ignore reality. Good night! Keep yourself snuggled up with those comforting illusions.

[NutmegYankee]

66. You too!

[JuniperLea]

91. Wow... yeah, straw man arguments are very convincing

You must be right about everything.

:eyes:

Then you should be able to show us all how contorted these two men were when the one pristine bullet went through them, hitting bones and such.

[NutmegYankee]

103. Did you read the post above?

It was a response to a rather patronizing attitude. I admit it, I can't argue against invincible ignorance, it's just invincible. Imagine that!

[MNDemNY]

2. That horse is too dead to beat.

[SpiralHawk]

12. Only a Repuliconized Kool Aid Guzzler would swallow the WC, and beat the horse

[yodoobo]

3. I think the "spirit" of the findings is correct

But the fine details? we'll never know.

[Parche]

4. I read one of the doctors`book

that operated on him, well what was left
and he verified that the neck was an entry wound
that in itself crushes the warren commission

I say it was the CIA, and who did they put on the Warren commission?

allen dulles, the fired CIA director
that is like maiking John Wilkes Booth in charge of security at the Fords Theatre...

CIA knows, and has done so many coups, and asassinations,

[Mojambo]

7. I read that book. "Conspiracy of Silence", I think?

Very good book.

[LibDemAlways]

5. Oswald called himself a "patsy." I

take him at his word.

[Recursion]

24. See that's the big one for me

Who kills a President and then denies doing it? Admittedly we only have a small sample of world leader assassins to examine, but all of them were very big on taking credit for it.

[Mojambo]

6. Doesn't even come close to passing the smell test. n/t

[doc03]

8. As a lifetime hunter and shooter I never will believe the

single bullet theory bullets don't do 180s. You get shot from the rear you are going to be propelled in the opposite direction, JFK was practically knocked onto the trunk of the car. The bullet on the gurney, come on give me a break.

[Botany]

14. 3 shots w/ a bolt action rifle in 5 seconds?

I tries to do this with out trying to aim and could barely do it.

[guardian]

104. Piece of cake

you must be a shitty shot

[LanternWaste]

111. Piece of cake when typing from a keyboard...

Piece of cake when typing about it from a keyboard...

Real life is different.

[JuniperLea]

30. And a bullet can't go through

Two bodies, hit bone, and end up only slightly disfigured.

[TexasObserver]

9. The most ridiculous story ever told about it is the official one.

IT is the most ridiculous conspiracy theory of all.

JFK was hated, HATED by the right wingers in this country. They talked openly of wishing he'd be assassinated. Only the Secret Service could have made the parade route go out of its way and by the School Depository building. Only someone with advance knowledge, far in advance, could have gotten Oswald a job in that building and made sure he was there for this event.

Oswald had to be an Army intel agent. The notion that anyone in those days could simply get out of the US military, travel to the USSR, marry there, and then come back home is absurd beyond words. ONLY if the State Dept wanted him to come back would he have been allowed to do so.

He was clearly a US agent all that time, and certainly was a US agent when handing out "communist" leaflets and giving voice to support for Castro. He WAS a patsy, absolutely.

[MichiganVote]

10. I don't think the public knows the whole story on Oswald and his life and associates.

[fla nocount]

11. Oswalds' assassination by a "grief-stricken" small time hood...

screwed the pooch for me, I think that I was 11 years old. Later viewing of the Zapruder film with Jackie scooping brains and bone from the BACK deck of the limo did it for the hunter in me. Poppa Bush being the lone person in the western world not remembering where he was that day when he was in Dallas all along, Allen Dulles's, recently fired by Kennedy as Director of the CIA, presence on the Warren Commission, reinventing history documentaries completely ignoring the storm structure with the 4 foor outlet to the Trinity River at the bottom of Dealy Plaza.....and

1. No staff of investigators; near-total dependence on information
gathered by others, while claiming to conduct "an independent
investigation." In its "Forward to the Report," it openly boasts that it
had the power to grant immunity, but never used it.
2. Too much emphasis on getting it over with, at the expense of leads
which even their own staff thought important, while claiming to conduct
a "thorough" investigation.
3. The decision not to request access to the autopsy photos and X-rays,
much less not to request evaluation by qualified forensic pathologists.
4. The decision not to question Jack Ruby away from Dallas.
5. The decision to assume Oswald's guilt at the outset, and the
adversarial attitude toward witnesses who didn't assume it.
6. The failure to aggressively pursue records held by less cooperative
agencies, like the military, the CIA, etc.
7. The decision not to make its evidence files available for study by
scholars, and instead to seal them until 2039, and the small printing
(5000) of the volumes of evidence that were released, with no allowance
for a second printing based on demand.

links like this: http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/report35.html

I standing in a bank teller line watching an overhead broadcast of CNN when the second plane hit on the 9-11. I blurted without thinking, "what are the bastards up to now?" Being a non-assimilated descendant of agrarian, indigenous victims of genocide will do that to your psyche. Especially when it's sanctioned by someone else's "Dead Male as God."

[Recursion]

25. As Dennis Miller said...

... if they let Jack Ruby into that garage, who exactly were they keeping out?

"Hey, chief, it's the guy that owns all the titty bars in town, should we let him in?"
"Yeah, let's get him in on this."

[NorCalDem]

13. There are 10 people on DU who believe the Warren commision?!?

They must be trolls...

[RC]

18. I wonder how many of those 10 are in the September 11 dungeon?

[JackRiddler]

36. Nine.

[fla nocount]

41. There's 10 now by reading screen names, maybe more,

I don't go there much anymore. I don't accept scientific evidence from Popular Mechanics either.

[HamdenRice]

43. There has been a fall of of "work" by the self appointed "dungeon masters" ...

but this topic brings out a somewhat different group.

[NorCalDem]

61. Hey, i like me a good 9/11 conspiracy theory...

but the Warren commission. Give me a break! It's more possible that Bush flew one of the planes on 9/11 and parachuted out at the last minute screaming "allah akbar" than the Warren commission being real?!?

[fla nocount]

20. Sorta, they're DLC and Poppa Bush is still alive and playing...

golf with Bill Clinton. You and me need to get our priorities right and put the party and it's business interests foremost.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. I have been to that school depository building in Dallas

I stood at that window where Oswald stood and saw what he saw. There are markings on the street that show where Kennedy's car was when he was shot.

And there is no way one person fired one gun twice and hit Kennedy both times. No. Way. In. Hell.

As I stood there, every single other person who came up to that window also commented that there is no way Oswald acted alone. It is so obvious when you are there, where Oswald was.

So no, I don't believe the Warren Commission findings.

[HamdenRice]

16. "Back and to the left. Back and to the left." In other words, no. nt

[NutmegYankee]

22. You realize the JFK movie was fiction right?

[fla nocount]

34. The Zapruder film wasn't ficiton....

Jackie crawling BACK onto the trunk retrieving bone and brain wasn't fiction. "Back and to the left, back and to the left. No."

Think of how slap happy nappy the nation could be be if we would all accept, en mass, that Oswald was just a really good shot...and pin-ball wizard.

[me b zola]

44. Oswald was such a good shot

...that his bullet passed Kennedy and then made a u-turn to enter into his throat.

[NutmegYankee]

47. and yet most of the brain matter blew out to the front?

Just as if that was where the exit wound was - imagine that.

[MadHound]

51. Out the front

Which film did you watch, or is that another one of your cartoons that you're getting your information from? If you watch the actual Zapruder film, you clearly see brain and bone matter exiting the back of the President's head, as it would from a frontal shot. That is why Jackie was picking her husbands skull off the rear hood. That is why there is brain matter and blood sprayed all over the rear hood. That is why the rear motorcycle cop, who was to the left and rear of the automobile testified that his helmet, bike and clothing were covered with blood and brain matter.

[NutmegYankee]

53. Watch frame 313 again.

The majority blows out the front. It is expected that some would be blasted backwards from the entry wound, but watching the film you can clearly see that the exit splatter goes forward. The cop rode through the "cloud" since the vehicles were moving.

[MadHound]

58. I've watched that film in more ways than you can imagine

And the exit splatter does not go forward. Really, stop getting your information from third generation propaganda shows (yes, I know that Discovery had a real entertaining one on the other night, but high entertainment value doesn't correlate to high truthfulness). You still haven't explained why, if the majority of the splatter went to the front, that most of the blood and brain matter was to the rear of the car, you know, where Jackie was picking up her husband's skull.

And the motorcade actually slowed down when the shooting first started(if you watch the film you'll see that, along with the cloud of blood and brain itself, going towards the rear). Thus, he didn't have the necessary speed to be enveloped by any cloud, that blood and brain matter was projected with force upon him, as he has testified.

Let's add this little ball in for you to juggle, then I'm off to bed. Explain to me how the President's wounds defy physics? If he was shot from behind, as you claim, how come the entrance wound is a great gaping hole while the exit wound is nice, neat and small? This defies every forensic test ever made. The entrance wound is always the small wound, the exit wound is always the largest, yet you're trying to say differently? What, you don't like physics or something?

[greyl]

65. When you find something, it's always in the last place you look, right? Look here:

The double movement

The simple fact is that John F. Kennedy's head did not snap "back and to the left." What the human eye cannot perceive with ease while viewing the Zapruder film is clearly revealed in a frame-by-frame comparison: that between Zapruder frames 312 and 313, the President's head is propelled forward several inches (2.3 inches, according to one study),(2)before strongly snapping backwards, beginning at frame 313 (the first frame in which the results of the bullet strike become visible).

This animated image created by researcher Vincent Van demonstrates the forward movement of the President's head with startling clarity.



From The JFK 100: One Hundred Errors of Fact and Judgment in Oliver Stone's JFK

[NutmegYankee]

67. That was the point I wanted to make -

But hey,"He's watched the film in more ways than I can imagine". I learned long ago to just give up on people like that.

[HamdenRice]

70. Oh, now I get it!

All the evidence is in a missing frame that a cartoonist can recreate to prove that the president's head actually moved forward when it appears that it is blown backwards!

Thanks for explaining that the entire crime is solved by drawing in an imaginary frame in the Zapruder film!

[MadHound]

74. It's new! It's technology! It must be true!

I love people who think that a cartoon version of reality can actually take the place of reality.

[MadHound]

72. Ah yes, the "official" Zapruder film

Do you know the history of the Zapruder film? Who held it for a couple of weeks? Go check into that for an eye opener.

It's very hard to do, but one can still get ahold of the original Zapruder film. Watch that, and then do your frame by frame analysis. You'll find that somebody, somewhere along the line altered that film, including your so called "proof", frames 312 and 313. In fact in the "official Zapruder film those two frames are actually reversed, whereas in the altered, yet "official" version they have been doctored with to fool people like yourself. Don't believe me? Go read the HSCA expert testimony.

[greyl]

82. That's an absolutely ridiculous claim. The frames are swapped? Right.

Please post or link to what you believe are authentic copies of frames 312 & 313 and let's see what we come up with.

[MadHound]

83. Well, I gave you one link already

The testimony at the HSCA, specifically by Robert Groden. You can also read the entire history of the Zapruder film(and it's a long and strange one) in "The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination"

[greyl]

87. You haven't posted any links in this thread,

let alone links to what you believe to be authentic copies of frames 312 & 313.

[MadHound]

88. You're right, I haven't

Instead I've given you references, to the HSCA testimony and to a book that is an excellent reference on the subject. I'm sorry that this forces you to go out and do actual research, but hey, the best things require effort on your part. I feel as though I've sourced myself well, it's up to you to go out and do some research for yourself. What, it's not real if it isn't on the internet:eyes:

[greyl]

97. It's not like I'm demanding you produce blueprints of what crashed at Roswell, is it?

MadHound: "What, it's not real if it isn't on the internet"

Are you implying nobody has uploaded this major evidence of yours to the internet? There is no authentic copy of the Zapruder film on the internet?
Woah.

[JuniperLea]

93. I'd like to see frame 314 as well

If you look at the gif above, you'll see that even the driver's seat appears to go backwards...

[greyl]

95. That can be seen at 2 of the links I provided.

Here: http://users.skynet.be/mar/Eng/Headshot/back&left-eng.htm#Sommet
and here: http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/issues_and_evidence/zapruder_film/images/Killing_sequence_310-325.html

Juniperx If you look at the gif above, you'll see that even the driver's seat appears to go backwards...

The gif is showing the motion of Kennedy's head relative to everything else. Everything goes backward except Kennedy's head.

[JuniperLea]

98. How could everything go backward

When the car is moving forward?

And the exit material is shooting almost straight up. That would indicate the shot either came from a lower trajectory, or it ricocheted off the car or something, in which case it would have been greatly misshapen.

[greyl]

99. "This animated image created by researcher Vincent Van demonstrates the forward movement

of the President's head with startling clarity."

Please do check out the links I gave.

[JuniperLea]

102. I did

I saw hunching, but no clear forward movement. I did however see a very clear lurching backward... which is contraindicative of a shot from behind. Were they approaching an overpass?

[JuniperLea]

101. What amount of time elapses in these few frames?

Because he lurches backward, which would indicate a shot from the front. But the exit wound in that case would be in the back.

The whole thing is just weird. I'm thinking there were more shooters and more shots than I originally believed.

[ProfessorGAC]

81. Acually The Bulk Of The Splatter Goes Straight Up Over. . .

. . .JFK's head.

Look at frame 313 using ultrahigh contrast. You'll see the bulk of the spray is going virtually straight up.

And i'm no conspiracy nut. I think Oswald was A shooter, just not the only shooter. Nobody has ever adequately, for me, examined the idea that there was plenty of opportunity for a 2nd shooter in the same building. Other end. One floor down. Still a triangulation.
The Professor

[HamdenRice]

42. But as has already been stated, the Zapruder film isn't. Remember what Richard Prior said?

"Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?"

Can any person who has seen the Zapruder film who alsohas two brain cells to rub together really believe the official story?

[LanternWaste]

76. It was just a movie? And movies aren't true?

It was just a movie? And movies aren't true? Dear God! That must mean there's no Death Star either...

:eyes:

[old mark]

17. J. Edgar Hoover, Sam G., CIA. Or any or all of the above. nt

[yardwork]

23. I used to be more or less inclined to believe the Warren Commission but no more.

The last eight years changed me forever from a skeptic to a tin foil hatter.

[edbermac]

26. I have Crossfire which Stone based JFK movie on.

Marrs makes a convincing conspiracy argument.

[FarLeftRage]

27. From most sources that I have read

The assassination points to two people who where in dallas on that fateful day... nixon and g h w bush....

[gravity]

28. I believe it over the conspiracies

Compared to all the other theories out there, the lone gunman is the most simple and credible theory. Unless there is substantial evidence to the contrary, I generally accept the WC

[MadHound]

35. Well, in 1979 the House Select Committee on Assassinations found otherwise

Using better scientific methods, actually listening to witnesses(those who were left by this time), this committee, who in reality didn't want to open this can of worms, found the case for there being at least four bullets shot, for there being a conspiracy, that they made it their official finding. To this day, though the government doesn't broadcast it, those finding by HSCA are the official story, superseding the Warren Commission report

[gravity]

39. There hasn't been any definative evidence

And the whole conspiracy story doesn't seem right. Why the hell would there need to be two shooters for the assassination to begin with? Even if there was, what does it prove?

If you are going to claim that there is a tag team of shooters, or that it is apart of a bigger plan, I will need some clear evidence of it. Right now, the lone gunman is the most credible theory out there and has the most evidence supporting it.

[MadHound]

40. Actually if you go look, there's an abundance of evidence against the Warren Commission version

As far as having two plus shooters, most professional jobs are done with multiple shooters. Maximizes your chances for hitting your target.

[gravity]

105. I've done the research

and I see no evidence that it was apart of a bigger conspiracy or that there was a second shooter.

I am open to ideas about conspiracies but there needs to be some clear evidence for it. Just because there are possible discrepancies or somethings seems odd in the Warren Commission, doesn't mean you can start making elaborate stories. There are a lot more reasonable explanations for the magic bullet than suggesting that there is a huge secret conspiracy plot behind it.

[damonm]

31. NO.

FAR too many inconsistencies for this to have been true.

[Octafish]

37. Secret Service ordered to stand down.

Video:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=JFK+secret+service+Love+field&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

Secret Service Agent Henry J. Rybka is seen throwing up his arms in a "WTF?" expression.
It's at, about, the 2:55 mark.



So, if there wasn't a stand down... Why are there NO Secret Service agents on President's limousine?



Why are the police motorcycle riders BEHIND the President's limousine?



Why would the motorcade route make a 120-degree turn, just at the spot Lee Harvey Oswald found work a couple of weeks earlier?



Why would someone go to all the trouble of impersonating Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City a couple of months earlier?

Answer: Our President was set up.

[Samantha]

48. There were a number of people who conspired, including the

person who passed the Secret Service's guide on protecting the President to a participant. There is only one person who could have had access to that and passed it on to abet the murder of John F. Kennedy, Jr. So you are correct in everything you say in your thread.

Sam

[bobthedrummer]

109. I always thought that version of Oswald resembled Pat Buchanan, Octafish.

Or a central euro slavic guy working for the "West".
;-)

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

50. Oswald was undoubtedly a patsy,

just as he said he was. Anyone who watches the Zapruder film and believes that the fatal shot came from behind JFK has never studied even high school physics. As someone upthread said, he was practically blown into the trunk. The head shot obviously came from JFK's right front, i.e., the famous grassy knoll.

Who did it? I've always thought that rogue elements of the CIA involved in the Bay of Pigs and the Mafia were involved. Right wingers and Mafiosi had good reason to hate John (and Bob) Kennedy.

[leftofthedial]

54. makes about as much sense as the 9-11 Commission Report

and like the 9-11 Commision Report, it has slight partial truths sprinkled around for the morons to point to while they jump up and down and call us "conspiracy nuts."

magic bullet, acoustic evidence, impossible shot, impossible escape, clear evidence that he was a patsy, etc. all make the WC's explanation just plain silly.

[Waiting For Everyman]

56. Sure, just like I believe all Rethug fairy tales.

Nobody with a lick of sense believed it even before the Zapruder film was released. It was obvious preposterous nonsense. I was 14 when it happened, and even I knew that.

The murder of Oswald on camera in a police station, for God's sakes, clinched it for most people, who knew right away the first day what had happened (ending the war, closing down the CIA, hmm who could it be???). Of all the comments I heard at the time from lots of people of all ages and all walks of life, none bought it. Hell, the RWers admitted it - slapped themselves on the back for it, reveled in it, took credit for it. They got suddenly bolder, which made everyone else whisper. What would YOU think?

[tomreedtoon]

60. I don't accept the tinfoil paranoiacs or their books.

The Warren Commission was not true because the Kennedy family wanted to keep everything about the President's life secret, from his genuine crippling to his drug abuse. So it was not a factual analysis of the event.

But that secrecy allowed everyone to claim the CIA, the Russians, the Mafia, the Hong Kong Fireworks Company and Ed Sullivan were the real assassins. Basically, it was the Kennedy family that made all of you conspiracy junkies intrinsically distrust government.

And that distrust allowed the right wing, those people who are experts at exploiting fear, to take over. Your paranoia helped the neocons and the right-wing psychos run this country since Kennedy's death. I hope you're all happy.

[fla nocount]

63. Who is LARED?

I mean really. I've never had the stomach to stay long enough to figure it out.

[anigbrowl]

64. Winner

The problem with conspiracy theories is the same as with things like intelligent design - you can point out inconsistencies in the official story (and some of these observations are quite valid), but for an actual explanation you need a proper hypothesis, and no clear compelling alternative explanation has ever been proposed that fit all the facts, instead you get different conspiracy theories competing for airtime. Same deal with 9/11, at one end you have the LIHOP people who think the administration shrugged off incident warnings because national security is a good political football for the right, at the other end you have people talking about mini-nukes and energy rays and other things that may or may not even exist.

Alternatives are always worth examining (accountability is a good thing, and cover-ups do take place) but the fact is that some people exploit tragedy and make a nice living out of pushing conspiracy theories. Alex Jones springs to mind. Considering that there's 'alternative' theories about Lincoln's assassination, the fact is we'll probably never know exactly what happened with Kennedy's. Given the political situation at the time as well as Kennedy's private life (affairs, health problems etc.) it's not surprising to me that the the official investigation plumped for what looked like the simple answer rather than conducting an exhaustive investigation.

Who knows, maybe it was even the right thing to do; suppose (for argument's sake) that the USSR had been behind it: what were we going to do, have a nuclear war over it? For any scenario, there's a lot of complex 'what-if' questions. The painful reality is that when it comes to life and death matters at such a high level, regular considerations of justice and probity don't apply. There's no referees in such power games.

[tomreedtoon]

86. Thank you, Anigbrowl, for a moment of sanity.

Here in Florida, I'm currently tortured by conspiracy theories about the Kaylee Anthony disappearance/murder. There are lots of people on all sides wishing to exploit this tragedy, calling the mother a lunatic and murderer, implicating her parents and the police, et cetera. The only minor blessing is that Geraldo Rivera, that slimeball egomaniac, isn't on television right now to poke his booger-encrusted snoot into the Anthony case.

I wonder how many Kennedy conspiracy theorists actually ever knew anything about Kennedy, or gave a damn for him. As I recall, being a very young kid at the time, he was having trouble with his re-election campaign from all sides. (Hey, that's a new conspiracy theory - NIXON had Kennedy killed! Go to it, tinfoil hat people!)

[TexasObserver]

68. What an incredible load! When did you make up that story?

You wrote these two sentences, perhaps the most idiotic comments ever posted at DU:

"The Warren Commission was not true because the Kennedy family wanted to keep everything about the President's life secret, from his genuine crippling to his drug abuse.... Basically, it was the Kennedy family that made all of you conspiracy junkies intrinsically distrust government."

You're embarrassing yourself saying such stupid things.

[HamdenRice]

71. Especially since it is a documented fact that Bobby tried to find out the truth

and the Kennedy family did not believe the Warren Commission report. So to believe the crap posted above, you would have to believe that the Kennedy family itself covered up the murder, then tried hard to blow the coverup.

[TexasObserver]

75. It's Kennedy hating that one never sees from a Democrat.

Which tells us something.

[tomreedtoon]

85. Read Garry Wills's "The Kennedy Imprisonment."

And also read the book "Case Closed." Both say pretty much the same thing. The Kennedys didn't want their family's dirty laundry aired, so they clamped down on the Warren Commission. The result was that flood of screwball conspiracy theories that further muddied the watters.

[LanternWaste]

112. try "An Unfinished Life" by Robert Dallek

On Edit: n/m.

[MrSlayer]

62. No, not at all.

I've been to Dealey Plaza. All you need to do is visit to realize the story is ridiculous.

[H2O Man]

69. No.

Too much information that they should have had was denied to them.

One example will do. Two of JFK's closest friends, David Powers and Kenny O'Donnell, were in a car behind JFK. Both saw and heard shots coming from the grassy knoll. Both were pressured by the FBI to lie about what they saw and heard that day.

[rucky]

73. Our government would never try to cover something up.

:rofl:

[bertman]

77. Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy by John Davis.

A must-read for good info on this case.

[MinM]

78. Warren Commision Members expressed Doubt -- Ford changed final report

The Warren Commission

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8568

Ford told FBI about panel's doubts on JFK murder
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/08/09/national/w071909D41.DTL

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Former_President_Ford_secretly_told_FBI_0809.html

Revelations Since the Warren Commission

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial." ~ Assistant Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach


At the conclusion of a 1976 investigation into how the Commission was served by the FBI and CIA, Senator Richard Schweiker stated on national television that "the John F. Kennedy assassination investigation was snuffed out before it even began," and that "the fatal mistake the Warren Commission made was to not use its own investigators, but instead to rely on the CIA and FBI personnel, which played directly into the hands of senior intelligence officials who directed the cover-up."


In the final session of the Commission on September 18, Senator Richard Russell led a group of three members who disputed the single bullet theory and wanted to write a separate dissent.


Did the Commissioners and their staff believe what they wrote? Commissioner Russell later denounced the Commission's no-conspiracy conclusion, saying "we have not been told the truth about Oswald." Hale Boggs complained that "Hoover lied his eyes out to the Commission" before his plane disappeared in Alaska.


New information on the Commission itself emerged over the years. For example, it was revealed that President Gerald Ford, while serving on the Commission, had informed on the Commission's activities to the FBI. As recently as 2007, Pulitzer Prize winner Patrick Sloyan, who was a UPI reporter in 1964, revealed that Ford had fed him inside Commission information. See Gerald Ford's Role in the JFK Assassination Cover-up, by Don Fulsom...

Following the Warren Commission there were additional government investigations into the JFK case, as well as revelations of various kinds. The second major federal investigation, the HSCA, determined that the assassination was "probably the result of a conspiracy,"

The full Commission presents the Report to President Johnson, 24 Sep 1964.
From left: John MCloy, J. Lee Rankin, Richard Russell, Gerald Ford, Earl Warren, Lyndon Johnson, Allen Dulles, John Sherman Cooper, Hale Boggs.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Warren_Commission

[FedUpWithIt All]

79. Oswald in more than one place, crazy bullet, near impossible shot, no trouble reentering USA...

list goes on.

No i don't buy it.

[Danascot]

80. My father-in-law was a CIA contractor in Viet Nam

and once confided to me that the CIA and the FBI knew that it was a Mafia hit because Bobby was going after them. There was also some Cuban connection worked in there. This was around 1967.

I have no way of knowing whether he was blowing smoke to make himself seem important or actually knew something.

He was killed himself a year or so later under mysterious circumstances in a hit & run in Miami ... in a parking lot, middle of the night, the car was moving at a high rate of speed and there were no (braking) skid marks, no witnesses. The car or driver were never identified.

[JuniperLea]

94. Dude... watch your back...

You may have spilled some Mafia beans here.

[Sebastian Doyle]

84. Jack Ruby was tied to Richard Nixon and the Bush Crime Family since 1947

The "magic bull(sh)it" believers never have an explanation for that one. Or the official memos from J. Edna Hoover herself detailing the presence of one "Mr George HW Bush of the CIA" in Texas.

[DiverDave]

90. Be spacific?, O.K., two words

Magic Bullet.

Sorry, that is just 1 of several things that don't pass the smell test.

[petronius]

92. The Kennedy assassination was clearly explained in the Red Dwarf episode

'Tikka to Ride.' All other accounts are pure fiction...

:)

[taught_me_patience]

96. Yep

Saw a show on the supposed "magic bullet". They recreated the shot exactly and there was nothing "magic" about it at all.

Occam's razor here folks...

[slackmaster]

100. That has been done several times in recent years

And the bullet is far from being in "pristine" condition as the conspiracy theorists often describe it.

[Seldona]

106. No clue. I lean towards Oswald, but other theory's abound.

I wasn't there, and haven't studied both sides of the evidence in depth. To much shit flying at us every day as it is imo.

[goforit]

107. Hey, Bobthedrummer....do you have your own website???

Selling musical stuff?

[bobthedrummer]

108. No. The last musical project I was involved with was Monkey Breath last summer.

I think they still have a page on my space, cutting and pasting my drumming via SONAR II software and other technical feats, and not giving me credit-but that's the music business of the entertainment industry.

There are a couple of other bobthedrummer's, one in Florida another somewhere in Ohio perhaps another on the West Coast-they aren't me, of course!

Let's send this back up now, kick.

[Liberal OIF Vet]

110. Nope...not even close.

My lying eyes are all I need to know that the Warren Commission was not only wrong, but was an accessory after the fact of JFK's murder.

[onethatcares]

113. it always seemed a bit strange that in the era of no computers

it took about twenty minutes to have Oswald in a movie theater waiting for Officer Tippet to come in to look for him. But hey, stranger things have happened.

The strangest thing I thought I'd seen was a passport surviving an aircraft crash and major fire. That one is for the books.

[lib2DaBone]

114. Warren Commission was a lie. 911 was/is a lie.

Bush knew (at the least).

[TexasObserver]

115. the Warren Commission was one huge cover up, with little truth at all

Its job was to cover up.

[mdmc]

116. kick

[RFKJrNews]

117. I don't believe the WC because...

...if Oswald was REALLY the spotlight-seeking commie whackjob thirsting for 15 minutes of fame that the WC and media painted him to be, he would have gladly claimed responsibility for shooting the president. (Terrorists just *love* the publicity!)

Instead of emphatically denying the charges and saying, "I'm just a patsy," Oswald would have been jumping up and down screaming,
"Yes, I DID IT and I'M PROUD I DID IT! AND DAMN RIGHT, I SHOT THAT NO-GOOD COPPER TIPPETT, TOO! VIVA CASTRO!!! VIVA KRUSHCHEV!"