"Public schools...are largely failing our children."

[ulysses]

- Leonard Pitts, http://www.miamiherald.com/living/columnists/leonard-pitts/story/771759.html

Do I smell an endgame? What say you, DU?

How about we privatize the whole shebang and let The Market (you know The Market) decide?

[donco6]

1. Do they pay more?

"The Market" I mean.

[ulysses]

2. in my experience,

they pay around half.

[donco6]

8. Hmmm . . . half of $34,500 for a first year teacher in CO. . .

. . . I'm thinking I don't like the idea.

[ulysses]

10. the job is your reward.

:rofl:

[mzteris]

3. What do you suggest, then

to correct the problems?

[ulysses]

6. got an hour or two?

- more initiatives to expose younger children to text before formal schooling. Early experiences are crucial.

- got a gripe with teacher quality? Pay more.

- talk to me about the culture at large, and what kids bring with them starting pre-k.

- reform or get rid of NCLB and start over.

That should be enough to start.

[mzteris]

9. what about

the "non-performing" teachers? The crap ones who stay and stay and stay in the system even though it is clearly evident that they are not doing anyone any favors by staying in the classroom?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. They can get in their fancy italian sportscars...

and go find Saddam's WMDs.

[ulysses]

14. with whom do you replace them?

At what rate of pay?

[KG]

18. ya know, i think the 'bad teacher' thing is a RW construct, like the welfare queen in a cadillac

i dont recall ever having a 'bad teacher'.

the problem with schools lies in socail and cultural changes taking place in the households, not the classroom.

[mzteris]

21. uh, no, it's not -

there most definitely ARE "Bad" teachers out there. One's who should never be allowed around children, much less charged with influencing them!

Though I do agree that the "social and cultural" changes in the household, and in society at large, are also "responsible" for some of the problems encountered in the classroom.

[mzteris]

22. better teachers

it shouldn't matter how much it costs.

I have ALWAYS been an advocate of paying teachers MORE. However, if they aren't doing the job, then they need to go.

[ulysses]

24. the cost evidently does matter.

Else we'd have done it.

Get rid of the ones who don't do - fine. But what then?

[mzteris]

30. We need to educate

the educators better. Offer them a better transition. I've always been of the opinion that "new teachers" should serve as teachers aides for at least 2 years before they get their own classroom. One, it would serve to train the teacher better, and two, lessen the burden on the primary teacher, and three, lower the student/teacher ratio - all of which would help the kids in the end, yes?

[ulysses]

40. sounds like the kind of residency that doctors go through.

We're going to see six-figure teacher salaries after we do this, right?

[mzteris]

43. why not?

Teachers are as important as doctors really. Maybe even MORE so when you think about it. They are responsible for our CHILDREN our most important resource. Their failure or success in the classroom can affect EVERYTHING. . . social system, criminal justice system, economy, productivity, innovation. Our future depends on how well they learn and how well they can function.

Don't you think it would be a good idea for "new teachers" to have a transition period with a more experienced mentor IN the classroom with them?

[ulysses]

46. sure. two problems, though.

1. The $ to provide enough incentive to submit to two years at aide pay on top of the initial certification when there's already a teacher shortage.

2. How do you provide for enough warm bodies in the interim period while your incoming class of new teachers is interning with their mentors instead of taking over their own classrooms?

[ulysses]

16. and by what metric do you measure "performance" and "non-performance"?

I teach special needs kids who read, on average, 2-3 years behind grade level. Research shows, however, that the most that can be expected of *average kids* as they get older doesn't match the deficit of an eleven year old who reads like an eight year old. Am I a "non-performer" because I don't work miracles and exceed statistical averages with every class, every year?

[mzteris]

23. no -

you know as well as I do that it's glaringly evident who is a "good teacher" and gets results and who it not. I'm not sure how to "measure" it - it's kinda like that porn thing, you know it when you see it. . .

Students need to MAKE PROGRESS. Individual progress. We need to stop this "cookie-cutter" "grade level" assumption. No one is "on grade level" in every subject. It's a colossal mistake to try and have "grade levels", I think. A student who excels in one area should be allowed to move ahead just as quickly as they want. A student who needs shoring up in another area should be allowed all the time and support they need to master that subject as well. Trying to teach that mythological "average kid" is an exercise in frustration for both the teacher and every kid in the classroom.

My younger son's old school - a Montessori program - had an INDIVIDUALIZED EDUCATION PLAN for every single child in the classroom. Not too hard so they get frustrated, no too easy so they are not challenged and can move forward. If they can do it, why can't every other school and classroom in the country?

Smaller classes, more teachers, better pay, better resources. . .

[ulysses]

33. pay requires measurement.

Sorry, but the folks who pay my salary aren't going to solicit narratives from the people who've seen me teach in determining my salary or hiring status. They're going to look at test scores.

[mzteris]

37. I hate "test scores"

you know as well as I that just because a kid "tests" well with a high score, does NOT mean that he's as smart as the kid sitting next to him who scores "average or below". Some people are just good damn test takers and it doesn't mean a thing. It doesn't mean the teacher is a "good teacher", it may mean that they're good at "teaching to the test" which is absolutely NOTHING like really teaching, is it?

People know. Admin knows. Parent's know. Kids know. I'm not sure how to "test" it or quantify it, but you know who the good teachers in your school are and you know who the bad ones are and so does everyone else.

[ulysses]

39. "People know. Admin knows. Parent's know. Kids know."

Those folks don't pay the salary.

[mzteris]

44. I'm not saying

it's easy to figure out, but better teachers should get better pay. Bad teachers should go. How to accomplish that? I don't know but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to figure that out.

[walldude]

17. Well maybe if we pay teachers a living wage we'd get

better quality teachers. Which is not to say there aren't many great ones. Most of my kids teachers have been wonderful people who go above and beyond the call of duty trying to educate kids while being underfunded and overcrowded. The bullshit talking point that public education is full of non-performing teachers who are skating by is a bunch of crap. r

[mzteris]

25. not "full of" no

but are there "non-performing" or "under-performing" teachers out there in every single school in the country? Yes. Yes, unfortunately, there are. And they need to go.

[ulysses]

28. there are underperforming doctors in every state.

We didn't wait until they were gone to pay doctors an assload of money.

[mzteris]

32. true - but doctors

are more customer-service driven. If patients don't like them, they won't go see them. "Tenure" ensures that bad teachers continue with no consequences.

And yeah, I agree, TEACHERS EVERYWHERE NEED MORE $$$!!

[ulysses]

38. not entirely true.

I teach kids from poor families and have for some years. You may not like your doctor, but if you don't have the capability to get to another one some distance away, you go to him anyway.

So it goes with schools, except with even more barriers, and vouchers won't change the underlying problem.

[mzteris]

41. I hate vouchers, too.

You have a point - but that makes it all the more important that there is some equity for "poor kids" and school districts. Better districts with more money (tax revenue from more expensive houses) offer better positions than the poorer ones. There has to be a monetary incentive for teachers to go into the worst areas.

[ulysses]

42. but if you tie pay to performance,

there's a monetary *disincentive* to do that.

[mzteris]

45. not exactly

tying "pay to performance" . . . ALL teachers deserve better pay, but we do need to get rid of the "non-productive" ones. The ones who are doing a disservice to our kids, you know?

Performance reviews for teachers should NOT be based on "performance" of kids on tests. Is the child better off at the end of the school year than when they got there? Yes or no. If the majority of kids in that teacher's room is worse off over the course of several years, then you've got a problem, do you not?

Individualized programs. Individualized assessment. Individualized portfolios. Kids who WANT to come to class everyday. Who are excited about learning. Who are motivated to LEARN on their own. Who desire to strive and achieve. This is what we should be trying to accomplish in each and classroom in the country.

[ulysses]

47. shouldn't be, but will be.

Performance reviews for teachers should NOT be based on "performance" of kids on tests.

How else do you expect them to measure teacher performance, especially in the age of the test? When it's as easy as it is to blame the teachers, districts are not going to take "softer" factors into account.

[walldude]

29. Well let me know as soon as you find replacements.

:eyes: If you are that worried, become a teacher. I'd love to but I can't afford it.

[mzteris]

35. well I was, sorta -

I homeschooled my older son for 8 years. . . . and I didn't get paid a dime.

In fact, it really hurt my career. I'm trying to re-enter the job market now - after so many years of lost income, experience, and professional advancement. I will never regain that. But you know what? It doesn't matter in the greater scheme because my son would never have succeeded in a typical "public school setting". He is now very happily ensconced in an "alternative" highschool - yes, a PUBLIC ONE - but one very different from the norm.

BTW - all parents are teachers, IMHO.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. I hear Repubs rubbing their hands and twirling their moustaches. "Ah! Our plan has worked!"

[fascisthunter]

5. Yeah.. due to Republican defunding them and warping Curiculum

they have been trying for many years to destroy free education... we are now becoming a third World Country. I guess that's exactly what the rich uuper class needs so they can sleep comfortably at night knowing their lazy pampered children will never have to compete with a brilliant kid from some poor neighborhood.

Do people realize what will happen to this country without Public Education. DO people realize how many children will grow up now with NO EDUCATION at all? Do people really want to live in a country like that?

Under Republican Rule and a "Centrist-Right" Democratic leadership, we have gone from the most powerful nation in the World to shit, all because the rich didn't want to share wealth. Because being wealthy is never enough for these sick people....

[MissMarple]

7. Leonard Pitts is in FLORIDA. They have a lot of problems with their schools.

Funding is one of them, leadership is usually the next one. Most public schools do a fine job.

[jpak]

31. Bingo

Florida is failing public schools so they can fund religious schools with taxpayer $$$$.

[BrklynLiberal]

11. The RW repukes have worked for decades to undermine the public schools...

I fervently hope that the Obama administration will do everything possible to bring the public schools back up to the excellence that used to make this country so proud of them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Well, they failed Leonard Pitts.

Apparently.

[GrizzlyMan]

15. Repukes have long dreamed of ending public schools

With the goal of making education for the wealthy elite, thus creating a permanent slave class.

[walldude]

36. Sad but true.

That's it in a nutshell, and it's freakin working. When's the last time someone gave you change without having to look at the register to figure out how much to give back?
I'm grateful that my kids teachers have engaged them and got them wanting to learn.

[greenbriar]

19. um....as a PUBLIC school teacher who works her ASS off

this subject just pisses me off


if you think you can do better, get your happy ass in my classroom

[riley3]

20. Republicans have been working on their "devious plan" to end free education

for many years. These last 8 years have just about finished public education. At a faculty meeting today we were told to expect the worst in the coming months. Parents do not realize how bad it really has gotten. There are always more unfunded mandates, and other schemes that continue to chip away at the public schools. I teach in FLorida at an "A" school, and because it is in a primarily Democratic area the Republicans (first w/Jeb Bush) do not fund us as well as our neighboring Republican districts. Their excuse is that we will work for less because we live near the beach. It's a shame that most of us must work two jobs and rarely get to see the ocean.

[jpak]

26. Yes, let's give out taxpayer funded vouchers for private christian schools!!!1111

That'll fix that prolem.

Praze teh Lawd!

:rofl:

[ROakes1019]

27. "good" teachers

As a retired teacher, whose husband was also a teacher and whose mother and both grandmother and grandfather were teachers, I get a little outdone with people who blame the public school system failures on "poor" teachers. My daughter, who teachs math in Florida, is a wonderful teacher, who works very hard to engage her students and puts in more hours than most people would comprehend. To me, teaching is one of the most important and, in many ways, rewarding job a person can do. I get tired of hearing about giving vouchers, paid from public money, to people to get their children out of failing schools. Fix the schools and, yes, engage parents more. What do private schools have to offer that can't be found in public schools? Many aren't accredited and have no standards they must meet. The only advantage is that ambitious parents can send their children there to get away from the dross of public schools. Pay teachers more and, for God's sake, get rid of or fix NCLB.

[walldude]

34. Obama needs to add that to his list. I just looked up the budget

for next year and Bush is trying to add a few billion to NCLB.