Why the hate for pacifists?

[Shardik]

I posted a thread earlier that I felt was innocuous in proclaiming myself one and the vitriol that spilled into that thread was surprising to say the least.

It's not a religious thing for me but more of a Buddhist thing that I came to during the Viet Nam war.

Are there really that many people here that want to damn me for not wanting to hurt others?

[derby378]

1. I'm a Quaker, myself...

I admire pacifism. But at the same time, I've seen too much to realize that pacifism in the face of unrelenting evil sometimes doesn't work.

I opposed the invasion of Iraq before it was considered "cool" to do so. I take a dim view of most of the military excursions we've been involved in since World War II. But, at the same time, I do not hold it against anyone if they own a gun. Or two or three. We've all seen too much.

I think the world needs to chill out and focus on how to build up our fellow human beings rather than tear them down. And it needs to start with us.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

2. Not me

but pacifism has many facets. I am anti war. Have been forever. But I also own firearms for protection. I think that when people hear or read the word "pacifist" it makes them think "weak."

I am also an atheist. The new religious thing is to be pro-war. Perhaps a few people need to be schooled on what you think pacifism means for you? :)

[Downtown Hound]

3. I didn't see the thread you speak of

But in general, I think true pacifists are a threat to a certain mindset just by their very existence. They're also a reminder that perhaps one's own propensity towards aggression may not be the most enlightened way. In other words, violent people look into the heart of a pacifist and see their own failings, and don't like what they see. It makes them angry and they lash out at the pacifist instead of themselves.

On the other hand, there are some pacifists that can be very condescending and seem to look down on anybody that doesn't believe what they do, and are critical even when somebody uses violence in self defense. I think this can anger some people that are really good people but just don't try to live their life like they're Buddha. They don't want to be made to feel like they're not as good of a person just because they can be provoked to striking somebody in anger.

[Shardik]

8. There's the nugget.

Nothing was said against others that did not ascribe to this belief. It was all taken for granted.

I really am at a loss for understanding here.

[rtassi]

4. not me ... hang in their, be patient ...

Anger and hate are powerful addictions as is fear .... but you might also consider, feeling as you do, that politics, even democratic politics, as a long term solution, offers very little in the way of evolution towards peaceful co-existence.
peace
rt

[NeedleCast]

5. Sweet Baby J

"I posted a thread on a message board and didn't get the response I wanted!"

:eyes:

I saw very little attacking of you in that thread unless you consider anyone who happens to disagree with you to be attacking you.

I'll say, like I did in that thread, that I often feel like those type of threads are self flattering and lead to hostility because they seem to take on the premise that anyone who is not a pacifist is morally inferior. There was also the comments by several self-proclaimed pacifists that people who weren't pacifists were war mongers or neanderthals. That's where the hostility comes from.

If you feel like I made a personal attack on you in that thread, I apologize. I am curious as to how far you would take being a pacifist, as the word can have different meanings. Are there any circumstances under which you would commit an act of violence to protect yourself or others?

[taterguy]

6. . . .

[RedLetterRev]

7. I never did see the value in destructiveness

AFAIC it takes way too much energy. Mind, I see nothing wrong with defending one's self, but there had best be a clear-cut transgression and no other way to solve it. I was raised to reason.

I also see great value in the Quaker way of waiting in silence. I think they've got the right idea: it's mighty hard to hear G'd if one's mouth is running. The wackogelicals ought to take a long, hard look. :)

[spoony]

27. Well put!

Love your user name, too :)

[gratuitous]

9. You challenged the High Church of Redemptive Violence

And our society is nothing if not convinced of the power of violence to redeem any situation. In fact, prospective action is discouraged because violence is always there as the final arbiter of any conflict. It's not the last resort, and is often the first resort. Its adherents will stuff words into your mouth, read meaning into your actual words, conjure chimeras, appeal to situations half-remembered or mostly forgotten, and generally embezzle outrage that anyone would doubt the ultimate power of violence. And if all else fails, they will cheerfully threaten violence in word or deed as the sine qua non of their existence and yours.

[Shardik]

10. Well said.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

"conjure chimeras?" What a great phrase! :)

[NeedleCast]

11. New Thread, Same Fallacy

The argument that anyone who isn't a pacifist is pro-violence. Same silly arugment the pro-lifers use...that anoyone who is not pro-life is for abortions.

[ZombieHorde]

12. "It's not a religious thing for me but more of a Buddhist thing"

A Buddhist thing is a religious thing.

[derby378]

13. Even if you're a Theravada Buddhist

Hey, someone in the non-Buddhist world needs to know the difference... :hi:

[ZombieHorde]

15. Some posters feel differently than me on this subject.

Those different feeling posters may wish to give reasons on why they feel that Buddhism is not a religion.

Here are my reasons for considering Buddhism to be a religion.

1) The definition of religion on Dictionary.com includes Buddhism.
2) Buddhism is tax exempt in the U.S. for religious reasons. Buddhists either filed for this exemption because they believe themselves to be a religion, they are liars, or some other reason that I am not thinking of right now.
3) His Holiness The Dali Lama has stated that Buddhism is a religion. Of course, he is not of the Theravada tradition, and may not be referring to what you are talking about.

[Shardik]

17. I do not feel Buddhism is a religion.

ergo, I will stand behind my post. I am a Buddhist and an atheist.

And I have decided not to harm others.

[ZombieHorde]

22. What are your reasons for believing that Buddhism is not a religion?

What do you think about my reasons for believing that Buddhism is a religion?

[Shardik]

25. I believe that a religion revolves around a diety of sorts.

To me, Buddhism is a train of thought rather than of deification.

[ZombieHorde]

33. Many religions do revolve around a diety,

but this is not a prerequisite for a belief system to be considered a religion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Mostly embarassment.

Because Iraq and Afghanistan are in the shitter, so they have to lash out at somebody.

[Qibing Zero]

16. Just because Bush screwed up, doesn't mean bombing places wasn't cool when Clinton did it!

Seriously though, can we just call 'humanitarian bombing', 'fighting for peace', and other ridiculous statements along those lines what they really are? We kill people. Collateral damage in the form of civilian casualties is acceptable when our goals are accomplished. Our conventional wisdom states that it's okay to drop nuclear weapons on major cities, as long as it theoretically could save a few American lives in the future. We love corporal punishment, and it brought a tear to our collective eye to see Saddam's head roll.

I really do love being called naive for holding pacifist views. As long as people continue arguing that killing is inevitable, it will continue to be so.

[Shardik]

35. Spot on. And it's a crying shame.

[Individualist]

18. DLC is pro-war

[Edweird]

19. I didn't see your other thread. I don't care what you believe. Really. Do your thing.

HOWEVER, if you feel that your beliefs or choices entitle you to insult or condescend me, then I will happily and enthusiastically invite you to get bent. What you believe is of zero consequence to me. How you treat me is important.

[Shardik]

20. Where in the fuck did you get that?

[Edweird]

21. Get what?

The 'you' in my post is a term for the population in general, not 'Just A Yeller Dawg'. You (this time it IS 'Just A Yeller Dawg') and I have not interacted as far as I can recall.

Sorry for any confusion.

[Shardik]

23. Your post was directed at the OP

And it inferred that I was being condescending or otherwise negative to you or those that believe as you do.

And what is the "This time crap?"

[Edweird]

29. Wow, chip on your shoulder much? For a 'pacifist' you sure are defensive.

The point of my reply was 'you do your thing and I'll do mine, and we're cool'.
Eh. Whatever. If you want to pick a fight with me, do it over something that I am willing to argue about like guns or pitbulls. This was just a 'live and let live' reply that you apparently didn't get.

[Shardik]

30. I'll quote your thread below and ask why I souldn't have taken it personally.

"I didn't see your other thread. I don't care what you believe. Really. Do your thing.

HOWEVER, if you feel that your beliefs or choices entitle you to insult or condescend me, then I will happily and enthusiastically invite you to get bent. What you believe is of zero consequence to me. How you treat me is important."

[Orrex]

24. I'm totally going to kick your ass for writing that. Aaarrghh!

Well, probably not really!

My thought is that people sometimes see pacifism as smugness or self-righteousness, when neither is necessarily the case. Also, I have seen a resentment for pacifism on the grounds that (in terms of society) it's only possible because others are willing to spill others' blood, and pacifism is seen as a kind of parasitism.

I don't know if any of that applied in the case you describe, but I know that DU can growl pretty loudly when certain topics are discussed.


For instance, if you ever dare to suggest that sexual predators should not be castrated without anesthesia and/or shouldn't be executed, watch out!

[Cerridwen]

26. In a militaristic, warrior society

those who would prefer peace to war are perceived and portrayed as weak-kneed and "ball-less."

It has ever been thus.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. No condemnation from me

The more I learn about history, the more I've come to realize that all wars do is lay the groundwork for more wars.

I once read a quotation from an ancient Chinese writer (I wish I could find the quote) to the effect that we rightly condemn someone who breaks into his neighbor's house, slaughters the residents, and takes their possessions but if he's the ruler of a country, invades a neighboring country, slaughters the inhabitants, and takes their wealth, he's considered a great leader.

I'm ambivalent about genuine self-defense, but I can't think of any justification for aggressive or preemptive war.

[PassingFair]

31. For the same reason that vegetarians and vegans get crap from people.

Guilt.

[PVnRT]

32. I'm wondering what "pro-gun" has to do with "pro-war" or "pro-violence"

Which is the implication in your post.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. If you hadn't been so vitriolic maybe they would have responded better.

[Breeze54]

36. Not me and I wish i'd seen that thread. Gheesh! I'm sorry that was the reaction you got here.

People suck..... sometimes.

:hug: