If they're too big to be allowed to fail, they're too big to be allowed to exist.

[backscatter712]

So let me add some conditions to that multi-billion dollar bailout for the auto manufacturers.

In addition to being made to make green cars, in addition to treating their workers better, in addition to firing all the assholes in upper-management, I think that GM, Ford and Chrysler should be broken up.

Yep, you heard it. Broken up. If they're too big to be allowed to fail, something should be done so they're not so big that one of them going under would mean the economy goes in the shitter.

With GM, that's easy. Break it into several companies, named Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Cadillac, Saturn, etc. Ford can be broken up into Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, etc. Chrysler can be broken into Dodge, Jeep and Chrysler.

In other words, instead of three auto manufacturers, we have well over a dozen. Financial aid should be given to help the new little auto companies retool, but once that's done, they should all be forced to compete with each other. This would also have the virtue of opening up the auto markets so new small-business auto companies can enter the industry and have a chance of competing, without being squished by a big oligopoly. Smaller auto companies would also be by nature more agile, able to retool and make new products in response to customer demand, as opposed to today's situation of the oligopoly being highly resistant to retooling to make cars with new technology.

Oh, and put in some legislation that ensures that under no circumstances would the auto companies be allowed to merge or buy each other out.

[autorank]

1. Great point but, more importantly great line

That sums it all us, as far as I'm concerned.

Your specific points are eminently sensible. We've never had a better time to reform but with Bush doing it and the congressional crew in there, it won't happen in a productive way. Obama is getting obligated for all this money with little input, which does not reflect the will of the people.

k*r

[Donnachaidh]

2. AMEN!

The monopoly laws should be brought back with a VENGEANCE. Especially with AIG and any other corporation that's said they need a bailout.

BREAK EM UP!

[liberalla]

26. Hear, hear!

We used to know what to do with these monsters of business - need to do it again. BREAK EM UP! Oh, and I'd like the corporate death penalty brought back (as another poster on this thread said).

BREAK EM UP! BREAK EM UP! BREAK EM UP!

It seems so obvious...

[FiveGoodMen]

3. A-FUCKING-MEN!

[Uncle Joe]

4. I agree with autorank, that is a great line and a great point.

Thanks for the thread, backscatter.:thumbsup:

Kicked and recommended.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

5. K&R Cyber kiss to ya, Great header.

[backscatter712]

6. For eight years, we've seen zero enforcement of the Sherman Antitrust Act.

That's the Bushies for you - all about big business, the rest of the world was made to feed them, right?

It's time we start breaking up all the monopolies. Break up the auto makers like I suggested. Break up the media oligopoly - that will help get better shows on the air and take the oxygen away from Rush Limbaugh and co. Break up Microsoft, so the computer industry can become innovative again. Break up the oil companies - we're down to a half-dozen megacompany oligopoly there, it's getting as bad as the days of Standard Oil. We need to break those monopolies!

[reflection]

7. This is a GREAT post.

There's always a diamond in the rough, everyday here. Bravo sir/madam.

[Agony]

8. FIXING CORPORATIONS by returning to the way we used to do it...

Including prohibiting corporations from buying each other. See the bolded line below.

-snip- from --->RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #488 http://www.ejnet.org/rachel/rehw488.htm#19
The people who founded this nation didn't fight a war so that they could have a couple of "citizen representatives" sitting in on meetings of the British East India Company. They carried out a revolution in order to be free of oppression: corporate, governmental, or otherwise; and to replace it with democratic self-government.

It seems that things have slipped a little. Today, as soon as any group or movement puts together a coherent critique of the role of corporations, tongues start clucking. Politicians, mainstream reformers, degreed experts, and media commentators fall all over each other in an effort to dismiss such clear, practical, focused thinking as mere "conspiracy theories" cooked up by unbalanced "crackpots."
What if...

** corporations were required to have a clear purpose, to be fulfilled but not exceeded. <10>

** corporations' licenses to do business were revocable by the state legislature if they exceeded or did not fulfill their chartered purpose(s). <11>

** the state legislature could revoke a corporation's charter for a particular reason, or for no reason at all. <12>

** the act of incorporation did not relieve corporate management or stockholders/owners of responsibility or liability for corporate acts. <13>

** as a matter of course, corporation officers, directors, or agents could be held criminally liable for violating the law. <14>

** state (not federal) courts heard cases where corporations or their agents were accused of breaking the law or harming the public. <15>

** directors of the corporation were required to come from among stockholders. <16>

** corporations had to have their headquarters and meetings in the state where their principal place of business was located. <17>

** corporation charters were granted for a specific period of time, like 20 or 30 years (instead of being granted "in perpetuity," as is now the practice.) <18>

** corporations were prohibited from owning stock in other corporations in order to prevent them from extending their power inappropriately. <19>

** corporations' real estate holdings were limited to what was necessary to carry out their specific purpose(s). <20>

** corporations were prohibited from making any political contributions, direct or indirect. <21>

** corporations were prohibited from making charitable or civic donations outside of their specific purposes. <22>

** state legislatures set the rates that corporations could charge for their products or services. <23>

** all corporation records and documents were open to the legislature or the state attorney general. <24>

ALL OF THESE PROVISIONS WERE ONCE LAW IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN And similar ones in most other states.
-snip-
Also see http://poclad.org/

[backscatter712]

11. I would love to see the corporate death penalty brought back.

It's still technically on the books, but it hasn't been used in more than a century.

If a corporation screws up badly enough, and the courts deem it necessary, it is perfectly possible for a court to order a corporation's charter to be revoked. Then all the corporation's assets would be auctioned, and the corporation would cease to exist.

I can think of quite a few corporations whose charters desperately need to be revoked.

[Lisa0825]

9. K&R!

[Romulox]

10. Except if your name is Bank of America. Or AIG. Or General Electric. Or American Express.

In that case your survival is a matter of National Security, and we will direct TRILLIONS to you in midnight sessions that will be disbursed in secret (so that we don't stigmatize the banks that are receiving our largesse, you see.)

In that case, throw everything you said away and just give them evil CEOs the checkbook!

[JerseygirlCT]

15. Wasn't it Barney Frank who said that about AIG when they bailed

them out because "they were too big to fail"?

He said then what the OP says: if they're too big to fail, they're too big to exist.

Funny, but I haven't heard more about that since they got the money. And have taken how many luxury jaunts?

[dflprincess]

19. And right after those words of "wisdom" were spoken wasn't Wells Fargo

allowed to buy WaMu (or some other big outfit) making Wells Fargo even bigger. Makes no sense to me at all.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. And many of these banks receiving

the bailout money are apparently using it to buy other banks, if the news reports I'm hearing are correct?

That makes sense?

I mean, to some extent, I do understand economies of scale. one community doesn't need 15 banks, maybe. But if any one organization's demise would cause serious, perhaps mortal problems throughout the system, then aren't they too big?

I'm not a genius with all this, but it seems to me that this is where the role of regulation comes in.

[Generic Brad]

21. The bailout money given to the banks is not a handout

It is loans that have to be paid back with interest.

Now I will prepare to get flamed by people who do not work in banking.

:hide:

[JerseygirlCT]

22. I understand that - but it wasn't supposed to be used

for acquisitions that may make the whole system less stable, was it?

I thought it was supposed to be used to help get bad debt cleared up and restructured.

[Generic Brad]

23. All this talk of acquisitions that have not happened

There has not been one merger I have heard of since the TARP money was distributed. All the mergers that occurred this year were pre-bailout.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. Well, that is why I added the disclaimer about the reports

being true. I'm also a bit skeptical about the breathless business reporting we're getting these days.

[MadMaddie]

12. I agree with you but I wouldn't limit it just to the Auto industry

how is it that AIG and other companies grew so large they could take the the entire American economy down.

This should be applied to any company that has a significant impact on finances, employment and security of this nation.

[backscatter712]

13. Hell yeah. The big monster banks should also be broken up.

AIG, Wells Fargo, Chase, etc. should be chopped into smaller pieces.

More competition, and fewer eggs in one basket.

[Chulanowa]

14. That's a simple and yet graceful solution

Break them up!

[tavalon]

16. I'm going to play devils advocate here

On the whole, I agree with you. And in normal circumstances, I would wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, we're trying to hurl into a depression and if huge companies fail, many more people will be out of work and that will accelerate the speed and depth of the crash. If we could get a public works thing going quickly, then the companies could fail without as much impact. But that will take some time and in the meantime, we need to try to protect jobs. It's being framed incorrectly.

[yodermon]

17. Any company so large that its demise threatens the very economy

and can directly affect so many people's lives is functionally as powerful as a government.
Corporate power is equal to or exceeds government power. In fact it is *more* powerful because they are looting the treasury and we are cheering it on.
It is 21st century fascism.

[salguine]

18. It's a good idea. There were well over a hundred American auomobile

manufacturers before World War II. Remember Nash? Packard? Kaiser, Hudson, Stutz, DeSoto, Standard, Studebaker, Pierce-Arrow, American, Pullman, Willys, Terraplane, LaSalle, Cord...Good Lord, the list is endless. That would be great to have that kind of diversity again.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

25. K&R

!!