I don't get the 'piracy' problem. Whoever can afford to own a billion dollar supertanker

[123infinity]

should be able to cover a squad of private security forces and a few superguns with which to blow the attackers to smithereens before they can even get close. So why aren't they doing it?

[Romulox]

1. Multinational corporations make more money when governments absorb their costs. nt

[123infinity]

5. Are governments paying the ransom to these assholes? First I've heard of it.

:shrug:

[Romulox]

8. No, but the drums of war are being beat at the moment, and the US is "uniquely positioned"

to lead the invasion of Somalia. Flowers in the street, pay for itself, etc. etc. :hi:

[123infinity]

12. Somalia has the government they deserve...meaning they haven't taken any measures

to improve it.

[Alamuti Lotus]

60. This is incorrect

Measures are being taken to sweep aside the Ethiopian occupyers and the puppet warlord regime in the south by the al-Shabaab movement. They are busy clearing out the south at the moment, but will be moving north into Puntland (base for the pirates at the moment) to get to work there soon enough. The six months that the Islamic Courts Union ruled Somalia saw virtually no "pirate" attacks, as their activities were forbidden and punished.

[123infinity]

65. Well, that's wonderful news....it's all under control. Soon. Or sometime.

:eyes:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

13. Yes, actually, they are.

[123infinity]

15. Oh? I presume you have some evidence of that claim...

nu?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

20. Well, just a few. Have you google news'ed it? It's a huge topic in the UK.

"In his report, Ban also addressed the activities of the Somali pirates, saying they are estimated to have been paid between $25 million and $30 million in ransoms. He said about 65 merchant ships were hijacked off the coast of Somalia in the first 10 months of the year."
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/11/19/news/UN-UN-Somalia.php

And also, DUH. Because it's cheaper to pay those idiots $10Million than to lost $100Million worth of oil.

"But in recent months security experts say there is a trend towards direct deliveries, to Somalia or to the captured ship, as intermediaries in third countries with functioning legal systems have become wary of handling the transaction.
Roger Middleton, the author on a report on piracy for the Chatham House foreign policy thinktank, said: "The company has to assemble the money in cash. Then its taken normally to Mombasa or Yemen. Then it goes by a private security firm, mostly ex-SAS guys, who use small boats, such as tugboats. They come alongside the hijacked ship and hand over the money."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/19/piracy-somalia1

[Alamuti Lotus]

57. deleted, wrong post to reply to

[Turbineguy]

2. Supertankers don't cost a billion

only the ships that chase pirates run to that kind of money.

[MadMaddie]

36. It's not the super tanker itself it's the product

"Black Gold"! Millions of dollars worth of it.

[dysfunctional press]

77. $100 million is still pretty far from $1billion.

but still- i agree that they should be able to repel boarders.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. Would you welcome a ship with mercenaries and 'superguns' into your local port?

Ships aren't sovereign states. They have to obey the laws of the countries they visit.

[123infinity]

4. Are they visiting countries that prohibit self-defense? I thought we were the only remaining

nation that operated like that.
:eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Well, maybe you need to define 'supergun'

I did assume you didn't mean the normal usage of the term - which is a gun capable of firing shells hundreds of miles on a sub-orbital trajectory. But I assume you mean something more than just a grenade launcher or a machine gun (which is what the pirates are armed with) - otherwise what makes them 'super'? So what did you mean - an anti-aircraft gun, Gatling gun, the gun from a tank? Yes, most countries are going to prohibit 'superguns' in the hands of civilians.

Your country is far more eager about 'self-defense' with large weapons than any other developed country.

[123infinity]

24. Yeah, a Gatling TYPE gun. Jesus, you can't find something meaningful to nitpick?

:eys:

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. Right, so a big gun like that would be unwelcome in the average port

unless in the hands of a responsible navy. So, there's your explanation.

What makes you think that specifying the armaments people carry into countries is 'nitpicking'?

[123infinity]

33. Define "responsible Navy" and we'll talk.

Oh, wait, I forgot...our own Navy never goes into a port without massive public support. How silly of me.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. A Navy that belongs to a country you're not currently in conflict with

You know, people who can be held accountable, and who's country can also be held accountable for them; and that have actually been trained to have control of Bloody Big Guns.

What this has to do with your own Navy, I can't tell. This is a question of whether a government can trust a ship with the weapons that 99% of governments prohibit everyone apart from their own military from having, not whether the average person is glad to see them.

[123infinity]

46. I have absolutely no idea what that random collection of words means.

It SEEMS you're in a hatefest against guns but I'll be damned if I can make any sense of your babblings.

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. I can give you lessons in English if you want

I'm a native speaker.

Your love of 'superguns', and killing people slowly and painfully, does worry me a bit.

[123infinity]

54. Don't be worried, I wouldn't kill you slowly and painfully.

Hell, I don't even know you!

[dysfunctional press]

78. the navy calls them the "phalanx"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02jNb_mZDjE



Developed as the final line of defense (terminal defense or point defense) against anti-ship missiles (AShMs), including high-g and maneuvering sea-skimmers, the first system was offered to the U.S. Navy for evaluation on USS King in 1973. It was accepted and production started in 1978, the first ship fully fitted out was USS Coral Sea in 1980. The Navy began placing CIWS systems on noncombatant vessels in 1984.

The basis of the system is a 20 mm M61 Vulcan Gatling gun autocannon linked to a radar system for acquiring and tracking targets. The gun fires at rate of 3,000/4,500 rounds per minute depending on the Block, or version of the system. It is mounted in a self-contained turret along with an automated fire control system. The system automatically searches, detects, tracks, engages and confirms kills using its computer-controlled radar system. Because it is self-contained, Phalanx is ideal for support ships which lack integrated targeting systems and generally have limited sensors. The entire unit weighs between 5,500 kg and 6,100 kg (12,400 to 13,500 lb).

Phalanx has been developed through a number of different configurations. The basic style is the Block 0. The Block 1 (1988) offers various improvements in radar, ammunition, rate of fire, increasing engagement elevation to +70 degrees, and computing. These improvements were intended to increase the system's capability against emerging Soviet supersonic anti-ship missiles. Block 1A introduced a new computer system to counter more maneuverable targets. The Block 1B PSuM (Phalanx Surface Mode, 1999) adds a forward looking infrared (FLIR) sensor to allow the weapon to be used against surface targets. This addition was developed to provide ship defense against small vessel threats and other "floaters" in littoral waters and to improve the weapon's performance against slower low-flying aircraft. The FLIR's capability is also of use against low-observability missiles and can be linked with the Rolling Airframe Missile system to increase RAM engagement range and accuracy. The Block 1B also allows for an operator to identify and target threats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

if i'm not mistaken, the shells they fire are also tipped with du.

[Romulox]

10. The Mall security guards are armed around here.

:shrug:

[TheCowsCameHome]

6. If it were that easy, they'd probably do it.

There must be some good reason that they haven't, so far. Maybe the threat of pirates putting a VLCC on the bottom plays into the equation.

Meanwhile, $250 million of ship and cargo was hijacked the other day.........

[tblue]

7. No. Don't blow them to smithereens.

My understanding is that these pirates have harmed no people in their acts of taking over multi-million dollr resources in vessels that the pirates believe have crossed into prohibited waters. They started out just wanting to protect their waters. The oil they've taken in hand was probably Big Oil's ill-gotten gain pillaged from somebody else.

To me, these pirates are a lot kinder and gentler than the * administration, which pillages and kills and maims innumerable human beings with 100% impunity. Arrest these pirates of the high seas, but don't 'blow them to smithereens.' And hold all governments and corporate overlords who steal people's resources to the same standards and laws with the same penalties. Tell them to keep the hell out of other people's waters, too, or suffer the consequences.

[123infinity]

9. Nice...they're no worse than some other thugs so they should get a pass.

Maybe we ought to give them fucking medals and free hamburgers for life.
:eyes: :puke:

[tblue]

11. You want to kill them?

[123infinity]

14. Absolutely. Slowly with as much drawn out pain as can be imposed.

...

[tblue]

16. Alberto Gonzalez! I was wondering where you've been!

What you want is immoral and illegal in most parts. I'm glad these posts are traceable.

[123infinity]

21. BWAHAHAHA, ;you want to TRACE my post? You're crazier than a shithouse rat.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[tblue]

81. I won't trace you, but somebody else might.

It's public record now. Do you work at being ugly or does it run in your family?

[Alamuti Lotus]

45. Well, what are you waiting for?

Blackwater (domestic pirates) is always looking for recruits, they'll appreciate the experience you have gained in the 194th "Tough Talkin'" Keyboard Brigade.

[123infinity]

48. Heheh...you're a cute little bugger. I might know your mom, what was her maiden name?

I was in the military when you were just a gleam in the milkman's eye, junior. :D :rofl: :D

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. You were, in the REAR we like to talk tough shit brigade

because we have never seen the front lines?

[123infinity]

70. Forgive me, I don't speak Gibberish.

:eyes:

[Alamuti Lotus]

61. And now, you're just the rootenest, tootenist, gal-dern shootenist..

bloviating nut behind a monitor. Truly a credit to your squad.

[123infinity]

67. Hey, what the fuck...I'm a newcomer here just like you are.

I'm behind a monitor and you are.......................what, exactly?
:rofl:
bwahahahahaha

[tkmorris]

71. We have another one of these guys, huh?

There's always one bloviating somewhere, though they usually are rooted to barstools.

[123infinity]

72. OH, hahaha...let me guess, you like to tell the joke about "how do you get 4 gay guys on a barstool"

Right? You know what, you can just go fuck yourself. Have fun being a goddamn homophobe...I'm sure Jesus will be proud.

[Alamuti Lotus]

73. I have been known for throwing around obscure, veiled references..

for example, that brilliant Yosemite Sam line above..... but how do you get an anti-gay joke from any of this?

[tkmorris]

75. What...on...EARTH are you on about? A Homophobe?

Do you even read the posts you respond to or do you just pull stock responses out of a file or what? Oh and the Jesus reference, that's pretty funny, especially since my religious views parallel fairly closely those of Richard Dawkins.

Here's to you Mr. Internet Tough Guy. For all you do...

:beer:

[Ikonoklast]

18. They are armed and have no problem killing innocent crewmen

They belong to no known governmental organization.
They control no 'prohibited waters'.
They have no force of national or international law on their side.



They should be terminated with extreme prejudice as fast as they are caught.

[123infinity]

22. Some DUers want to give them a group hug and sing Kum By Ah

:eyes: :puke: :shrug:

[Thothmes]

23. The Saudi tanker was over 200 miles out to sea, when seized.

[DrCory]

27. Now I've Heard It All...Good God! N/T

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. It is called INternational Law, look it up

and I will give you a free clue, goes back to 1956

Oh and in some cases, you do NOT want bullets flying either. (CNG comes to mind)

[123infinity]

25. You're right. We should immediately DISarm the Coast Guard, the Navy,

and ... well, fuck...everyone else. Except the pirates (the good guys) of course.

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Law of the seas forbade the arming of MERCHANT MARINE

which is EXACTLY what these ships are

Now, here is ANOTHER huge clue

You know WHY we didn't have this little problem until NOW?

Here it is... until RECENTLY (relatively speaking) the ruskies and the Muricans patrolled international waters... something called the cold war

Now here is more, there is an effort right now for INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS to have NAVIES patrol these waters

Only one problem, Somalia has jurisdiction over them

[123infinity]

30. Somalia doesn't even have jurisdiction over its own former capital.

It's a failed state...a textbook definition of anarchy. There is no law, no civilization. They contribute exactly zero to the world at large.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Besides the point, lawyers in Geneva and the UN need whoever is the nominal

government to cry uncle, or a WORLD body to declare it a failed state and use certain articles of the UN Charter, I believe Article 25, but don't quote me.

Until that happens...

But when it happens I expect the French, Russian, American and even perhaps the Chinese Navy to run a blockade and convoys

But I don't expect anybody to arm merchantmen

to add, it is exactly that international conference that hte French were talking about that I am speaking off, and I expect Navies to be actively hunting pirates in the Somali coast within six months... and that is fast by international standards.

[123infinity]

37. Well to tell you the truth, I don't even know (or care) who decides what is a failed state

I'm pretty sure every civilized nation thinks Somalia is a few thousand amendments short of a Constitution...and I'm mostly a fan of the UN but they're mostly ineffective in spite of good intentions.

In any case, why are we in disagreement...both of us think somebody needs to immolate the criminals, right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. The UN is as effective or ineffective as we want to make it

but that is the ORDER OF LAW

And we need to cross Ts and dot Is, the way it works in the real world

As to immolate the criminals

Your criminal may be my freedom fighter... so be careful about that one. Those pirates have emerged for a slew of reasons, and some of them, we created, the US and the rest of the West... so we are partly responsible, not that I expect that little piece of data to emerge at the conference. Those things never do

[123infinity]

39. I understand how some think oppressed people should be given the right to pillage,

I just don't happen to agree with that. I am NOT saying "we" have no blame for the conditions that encourage criminals...we do have but in the final analysis every person still has the choice to become criminal...not only WRT local statutes but widely accepted international limits on behavior. And of course your freedom fighter may well be my criminal. N'est ce pas?
:D

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. The point is that as long as we treat this only as CRIME, and not the

underlying causes, it will spread, just as .... terrorism

See... talking of multitasking

Take care of these guys, but also PREVENT others from coming up to take their place... and to do that, you need to deal with the SOCIAL conditions that make piracy a good option

Here is where the useless UN and other international bodies come in by the way

By the by... just in case you wonder ... piracy is NOT just limited to the Somali coast... I will NOT get on board a cruise ship traveling in the Caribbean, for example.

[123infinity]

41. Okay what are the "underlying causes"? I'd love to hear about that.

You know what, I'm pretty fucking much sick and tired of hearing about 'social conditions' as a rationale for criminality. I've been poor in my life and I never thought hijacking a ship or anything else was a good idea. Maybe your group thinks it is. As to the Caribbean, they're probably not disappointed you won't be visiting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Ye are a right winger?

Let me list some of the causes in Somalia

1.- NO WORK, at all... you can still get work?

2.- No food, to speak off... you still have some?

3.- No central government... we have one

4.- No services of any kind... I guess you still have access to some services

So I guess the level of poverty and desperation I am talking about is alien to you. It is the same kind of poverty and desperation that also led to highway banditry in the US and other places across history, by the by.

And that is the top of the list

As to the Caribbean, why do you think the Caribbean basis guv'ments do all they can to avoid that little secret getting out? They fear a decrease in tourism.

[123infinity]

44. No work, no food, no government, no services. Who exactly is to blame for that fucking

situation? Not I. Not you either. I just can't help but think there are probably people who live there and haven't done a goddamn fucking thing ABOUT those problems. Who's supposed to if they don't? Not I, sister...I got enough to deal with right here. Fuck 'em.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Nobody is asking you to do anything

that is what the UN and OTHER international bodies are for

And you are angry why? By the way, when I have right wingers scream about guv'ment and how less would be better I mention Somalia in the same breath. That is the heaven they envision.

But if we, as members of a WORLD community, are to effectively deal with piracy and terrorism, we need to deal with the root causes. Them are the root causes.

[123infinity]

49. I don't give a shit about Somalia...it's not even a COUNTRY these days.

Nothing wrong with a 'world community' as long as the inhabitants are willing to be a PART of it. The criminal pirates from (what remains of Somalia) don't get any free pass from me just because they're "deprived". Lot's of fucking people are deprived and don't hijack other fucking people. Yeah, I'm pissed...because I'm goddamn sick and tired of people making excuses for scum.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. What part of you deal with these guys UNDER THE AUSPICES OF LAW

and then deal with the UNDERLYING CONDITIONS TO PREVENT MORE PIRACY FROM EMERGING ARE YOU FUCKING IGNORING ON PURPOSE?

But this has to be done LEGALLY

GOT IT

LEGALLY

Cannot just string ropes over trees and hang them. that is MOB JUSTICE

And that INCLUDES THE ORGANIZATIONS YOU SEEM TO DESPISE AND INTERNATIONAL TREATIES THAT FORBID THE ARMING OF MERCHANTMEN

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Canuckistanian]

50. Time to bring back convoys, then

And treat the pirates as international terrorists. Track them down and destroy their bases.
Lord knows, there's enough

They've got to have a home port somewhere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Exactly and that is what the French were talking about

I need to track down the story... if need be, one of those that I overheard on NPR

It was kind of cute... convoy system, UN... 1956 treaty... the whole sheebang

Of course, as I have been trying to 'splain to the OP, not too successfully, we need to get the underlying causes dealt with as well

The brits did in the 17th century... pardons and oaths come to mind... and plenty of rum. Of course in the modern world that would imply schools, fishing fleets, loans and a strong central authority to replace the tribal system or strong tribal systems within a federal system... many ways to skin this cat.

[123infinity]

56. I guess our intelligence gathering has gone to shit lately since we can't seem to figure out

where these scumbags are located................................there are 7 or 8 captured ships in a Somalian Port according to the MSM??????????????????????????

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Shh don;t tell anybody but we do

but there has been an agreement of sorts that nobody wants to assault these ships...

Except the Indians, who have now fought the Pirates... this is the way this will happen...

Convoys are coming soon tough guy.

[123infinity]

64. Well, that's wonderful. Your reassurance is the best thing I've heard in years!

:D

[Canuckistanian]

66. With modern satellite technology

We could probably see exactly which pier they dock at, the exact boats they're using and probably what they had for lunch.

This ain't rocket science.

[123infinity]

69. Yeah...thanks, that's pretty much what point I was trying to make.

I know it's not real time but hell, Google Earth will show us what was going on fairly recently............

[DireStrike]

28. How can you justify that leap of logic?

From "merchant ships should not be armed" to "Disarm the legitimate maritime military agencies"? Do you really think he said that?

That's the sort of thing that sets one's troll radar off.

[123infinity]

31. Maybe you should get your sarcasm radar calibrated and worry less about trolls.

...

[DireStrike]

32. Oh, ok. Well played.

Got me this time. Nice move.

[123infinity]

35. Hey, my buddies and I kick each others' asses all the time.

It's all...well mostly all...in fun. :D

[hvn_nbr_2]

62. A supertanker, loaded with oil, that fires superguns at pirates will shortly become...

a super fire and super oil slick. It's cheaper, safer, and easier to pay the ransom and hope that governments and police/military forces maintain or restore order.

[Chemical Bill]

63. Those pirates go after small boats, too.

Remember the America's Cup skipper that was shot off of Brazil? I've read in sailing magazines that the horn of Africa and the Suez Canal are not safe for small boats, either. This stuff is serious like a heart attack....

Bill

[citizen snips]

68. ships should be armed

these pirates even attacked a cruise ship it is time this high seas anarchy should end.

[LSdemocrat]

74. Thank the international arms trade where the most disorganized rabble can get insane weaponry

Look at all of the armed conflicts going on in the third world, where even the seemingly poorest factions in the poorest countries have weapons stashes that make US militia groups look like amateurish, upper-class hunting clubs.

[madeline_con]

76. The Saudis own the takner, so yeh. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

79. For the same reason that cargo ships didn't fight back in the 1600s.

They're insured; no sense getting yourself killed by fighting.

[StreetKnowledge]

80. We've seen this is modern times, too.

Operation Earnest Will, in 1987-88. Iran and Iraq are at war, and shooting at just about everything, including American warships. The USA sent a bunch of warships, including carrier Ranger, battleship Missouri and a bunch of destroyers, cruisers and frigates to escort the shipping out of the Gulf.

Perhaps we will get this again off of Somalia.

[benEzra]

82. Letting Third-World-sourced crews be kidnapped/killed is cheaper, I guess. (n/t)