No Detroit Bailout -- The shit's gonna hit the fan pretty soon

[liberalpragmatist]

So there's not going to be a bailout or any Congressional action until January at the earliest. Nothing can get through the Senate (no Republican support). There's no support among Republican ranks for a December session -- as such, Pelosi has said none can be held.

So get ready for the shit to hit the fan. GM may very well go bankrupt by December, and if it can't get credit (and it probably won't be able to without govt action), it will wind up Chapter 7, not Chapter 11. With GM down, Chrysler will go down as will most of the major suppliers.

Get ready for unemployment to swell. This is going to be bad. (I have a personal stake in this -- my father is an engineer at a GM supplier and is in mid-level management -- I don't know that he'll have a job come January.)

UPDATE: Corrected, from this...

With GOP down, Chrysler will go down as will most of the major suppliers.

[KamaAina]

1. Freudian Post o' the Month!

With GOP down, Chrysler will go down as will most of the major suppliers.

It's GM that's going down. GOP gave them, and everyone else, a push.

[liberalpragmatist]

2. Ha!

You're right.

[babylonsister]

3. The Big 3 didn't convince the committee from what I've heard.

And flying in on their private jets didn't help. They couldn't even answer basic questions, just figured if they stuck their tin cups out, the gov't would fill them.

Maybe they'll figure out a way to turn it around. No doubt the gov't will eventually help them.

And did you see this video?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x242076

[Raschel]

13. I didn't see the insurance co.s or credit companies offer a plan. In fact

they have billions set aside for CEO bonuses, as testified to congress. But they reason this is "separate from taxpayer money".

They also don't have to show the gov't or taxpayers what they're doing with the money and haven't offered.

But if the auto companies ask for help it's a different story.

[liberal N proud]

4. We all will be so deep in the shit before it is done

The rough economy of the last several years will be nothing compared to the impending collapse.

[gravity]

5. This is scary shit and Congress is just sitting on their ass.

The costs of doing nothing in this case will be a lot worst than the $25 billion loan.

This is a crisis, and we need action to get shit done. We can worry about the moral hazard after we avoid a depression.

[Raschel]

14. ITA. This one really has me very concerned, along with the market today, the lowest housing starts

in history, and the biggest consumer goods price drop in fifty years.

[girl gone mad]

20. There's no way to avoid a depression at this point.

Hopefully we will be able to re-employ the laid off workers through the infrastructure spending that Obama is planning.

[natrat]

21. who will build war machines if the auto industry goes and we are attacked?

we are being set up for some nasty nasty times

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

40. That ship has sailed ...

We've shut down most of the steel mills and shipyards that got us through WW2. Maybe we can buy Liberty Ships from China.

:hi:

[Zynx]

23. There is little difference between spending stimulus into a decline and spending

at the bottom. Recessions and Depressions can be prevented. Little is certain in economics. I had prayed the government would have been more active last year than it was. Alas, they were not.

[sarcasmo]

35. You are correct, twenty percent unemployment in two years if they are allowed to fail.

[obiwan]

6. Fine with me. Less greed all around.

[BrklynLiberal]

7. The incompetent Management is not suffering and will not suffer.

It is the employees who have spent their lives working for a company and hoping for benefits and pensions that will suffer. And all the down-line businesses that supply them.
How long has each of these idiots been in charge of their particular company? How many people have been in those positions in the last 30 years? How many had golden parachutes, so that even after they screwed up, they left with a fortune in their pockets?

[bulloney]

53. That's the short-sightedness of those who support letting the Big Three fail.

If that happens, you would not only throw hundreds of thousands of people into the unemployment line or force them into jobs with their existing companies with major wage and benefit concessions, the retirees could very well have their nest eggs and health plans voided and what would they do? Where could they turn? They'll have to seek some type of public assistance and there's another burden thrown on the taxpayers' backs.

We're teetering on the brink of the next Great Depression. This is the linchpin that would trigger it.

[mrJJ]

8. Big 3 should go on a 3 day work week

Big 3 should put all factories on a 3 day work week. eom

Lets get the american public to see if they really want to see the pain.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. and management should "forego" their salaries, bonuses, and parachutes.

[mrJJ]

11. Agree 100%

[GOTV]

41. Absolutely - they won't because they're not serious about saving the industry n/t

[Raschel]

9. Many are pulling money out fearing that the financial crisis will be deeper if

we don't bail out the auto industries.

And our leaders know this. Can someone tell me why this is happening?

[BrklynLiberal]

12. Obscene managment salaries paid for idiotic decisions and union busting.

I would guess that most of the automobile management was in cahoots with the oil industry, and that is why they never made an effort to produce more efficient autos...

[Raschel]

15. That doesn't explain why government is willing to let the US crash. Gov't loves oil.

Plus there were numerous factors involved with plenty of guilt to go around.

Trying to compete with world wages led to bad parts, speeding up jobs, managers "shipping" or letting bad vehicles go out the door to keep up quotas and keep their jobs, greedy union leaders grabbing perks and turning their heads when the company screwed the workers, not to mention greedy CEO's, poor design, and failure to anticipate the market.

[SteveG]

18. It's not the Government - It's the Republicans

they want to try to pin the collapse of the U.S. economy on the Democrats. We have to start, right now, blaming the Republicans for being obstructionist and preventing any action to try to keep the auto companies afloat. I think Reid should have held the vote and then publicized the names of those who voted against helping the Auto industry survive, and then publicize the list of those who voted against.

[BrklynLiberal]

22. I agree. Everyone should know who is trying to sink the economy

[Touchdown]

24. Unions don't have "leaders". They are democracies.

Corporations are kingdoms. Know something about organized labor before you spout off on something you know nothing about. Jimmy Hoffa has been dead for 50 years. Stop trying to resurrect him. No unions are tied to the mob, so can it with the "greedy" bullshit.

[Raschel]

26. And you can shove it. I know plenty about unions. And don't put words in my mouth.

[Touchdown]

32. Scab

[Raschel]

48. It's obvious you' ve never worked on the line, and have the mentality of a child.

[Touchdown]

54. No. I'm a communications technician, not a line worker. CWA local 7750

I'm also the legislative chairman for my local, and changed at least 30 minds about Obama in my shop. Not that I need to justify anything to you.

Try another one of your "obvious" assumptions, Miss Cleo.

[JVS]

30. If unions don't have "leaders" then what the hell were Walter Reuther, Jimmy Hoffa, and John Lewis?

[Touchdown]

31. Elected Representatives. That's what they're called in democracies.

Nice bringing up Hoffa. The eternal evil guy, dead for 50 years, but you anti-union scabs just keep resurrecting him.

[JVS]

33. I like Jimmy.

And I'll have to remember your insult next time I'm trying to convince co-workers to sign membership cards and come to votes.

[Touchdown]

34. I was making a reference to the demonizing him by anti-union folks.

And if your an organizer, then why the propaganda and misnomers about presidents being "Bosses"? Do not use Steve Forbes' framing. It's hard enough to convince just DUers here that unions aren't just parasites on business, without a brother feeding the myth.

[JVS]

36. Why are you changing "leaders" to "bosses"?

We have leaders and we should be proud of them

[Touchdown]

37. It's also a misnomer.

Autocracies have leaders. Dictatorships have leaders. Parties have leaders. Kingdoms have leaders.

Democracies have elected officials, public servants, representatives, and presidents, which is what all union "leaders" official titles are.

[JVS]

38. No it isn't. Democracies have leaders.

[Touchdown]

39. Or Fuhrers, if your german.

Nice talking to you.:hi:

[Bandit]

55. Who is the head of the teamster's Union at the moment if you know so damn much?

:shrug: I think you know not what you say.

[GOTV]

42. It's a heavily unionized industry. GOP hopes it will take the biggest unions down with it. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

16. This quote gets me

"There's no support among Republican ranks for a December session -- as such, Pelosi has said none can be held."

She is the leader. Call a session whether they like it or not. At least look like you are doing something for cripes sake.

[unkachuck]

25. now now, Mojorabbit....

....Republicans are our friends and their wishes must be considered....

[Possumpoint]

17. Chapter 7, Not Chapter 11

Selling a little fear there to make a point?

[liberalpragmatist]

19. No

Virtually all analysts -- including the likes of Krugman and Delong -- have said GM is likely to have to enter Chapter 7 -- full liquidation, which could mean 500,000-1,000,000 job losses.

[thewiseguy]

29. It does not make sense for GM to file for chapter 11

They still need the cash even if they filed for chapter 11

How many people are going to buy GM cars knowing the company has filed for bankruptcy?

[JeffR]

27. GM may go bankrupt by December and its CEO doesn't go cap in hand

to Congress until mid-November? Either you're mistaken, or the company's management is even more stupid than I thought...

[pampango]

51. I'm not sure which it is, but either way there had better be a concrete "plan" attached

to the loan/bailout.

If there need isn't that bad (perhaps the rumor of "free money" rang through the executive suites in Detroit and the corporate jets got warmed up) or the need is bad and company management waited until way too late to do anything about it.

If it is the former, then there is no rush and we can take the time to put together a plan that makes sure the money is used to make the industry viable, not just cover up mistakes and buy time. If it is the latter, we had better have a concrete plan and not just turn that much money over to executives who have once again proven to be inept.

[dysfunctional press]

28. as soon as they shuffle off their union contracts and pension obligations in bankruptcy court...

they'll be fine- and back with a vengeance.

and chinese owners.

[GOTV]

43. As unual. The little guy suffers so the wealthy can stay that way n/t

[BelgianMadCow]

44. That's what I call spot on. Its been done before

US steel companies going bankrupt, shedding pension obligations, and then being procured by Mr. Mittal on the cheap and without obligations.

Disaster capitalism at work.

You are so right, cynical, but right.

[Bake]

45. GM has said it will run out of cash in December.

Ergo, no payrolls met. No payments to suppliers. No payments to dealers.

Bake

[earth mom]

46. Of course there will be no bailout of the Big 3. The bastards in power want to crash the economy

and kill off every Union job they possibly can before they are gone.

This has been the plan since that ugly ass bastard Reagan was in office. :puke:

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

47. Let em go. I owned a Suburban, and its in the shop 5 times a year.

Piece of crap.

[dreamnightwind]

49. Save them but reshape them

Funny how little I read about reliability as a component of the Big 3's troubles.

In my experience, people check reliability records when purchasing new cars. I always do. I haven't checked in 3 years or so, but at that time I don't remember seeing a Big 3 vehicle that was even close to the reliability of Toyota and Honda. What's up with that? I'd think it must have something to do with management not making it a priority.

I think we have to save this industry. This country truly is on the precipice right now, to a degree that most people haven't grasped yet. Letting these companies go could seriously be disastrous. Also bankruptcy is a right-wing tool to bust the unions.

Someone (Congress or if it's not too late the Obama administration) needs to put together a plan to remake these dinosaur companies into the innovators that will deliver quality and environmentally friendly vehicles for our citizens. And fast.

Decapitate the companies. The head of GM is a right-winger who thinks global warming is the largest hoax ever. Total dinosaur. He doesn't even really believe in the Volt, just kind of grudgingly producing it.

[spoony]

50. Can't argue with brilliant logic like that.

"Duh I got a product it didn't work right...and I'm still so bitter about it I don't care that millions of people will financially perish..."

I'd hate to see what you'd be pushing if you got a bad Toyota, maybe another nuke eh?

[bulloney]

52. A business editor from a local RW rag seemed to think if the Big Three go under,

the foreign-based automakers will absorb the market share held by the Big Three and there would be little pain in the end. Just different ownership. I guess that's why he's working for a RW rag. No criticial thinking skills needed. I'll bet he's worked at that paper for at least 20 years, so it's not like he's new and naive. He just works for a RW rag.

Did I mention that he works for a RW rag?