Major insurers will support universal health insurance -- if mandated

[pnwmom]

Basically, the insurers say they will support insurance such as plans along the lines of those proposed by John Edwards and Hillary Clinton, rather than by Obama. (The nobel prize winning economist Paul Krugman has also spoken out in favor of the Edwards/Clinton plans, for the same reasons.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/us/20health.html?ref=business

In separate actions, the two trade groups, America’s Health Insurance Plans and the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association, announced their support for guaranteed coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions, in conjunction with an enforceable mandate for individual coverage.

In the absence of such a mandate, insurers said, many people will wait until they become sick before they buy insurance.

SNIP

But the industry’s position differs from that of Mr. Obama in one significant respect. Insurers want the government to require everyone to have and maintain insurance. By contrast, Mr. Obama would, at least initially, apply the requirement only to children.

In the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, that was a major point of contention between Mr. Obama and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York. Mrs. Clinton said that everyone should be required to have coverage. Mr. Obama said he wanted to be certain that insurance was affordable and available to all before considering such a broad requirement.

Asked on Wednesday for reaction to the insurance industry’s proposals, Tommy Vietor, a spokesman for the Obama transition team, said, “We are declining comment.” Mr. Vietor cited Mr. Obama’s view that “we have only one president at a time.”

SNIP

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Dear Major Insurers:

Support yourself on this:

[Gormy Cuss]

3. You're being too kind. n/t

[pnwmom]

10. That is really offensive

to many Christians, no matter what their position on health care. I wish you'd edit this.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. You think He was saying "Bless you" when he whipped the

money changers from the temple?

What was the bit with the fig tree, if not a big FU?

I suspect that he would agree with the pic.

[pnwmom]

14. There are many ways this point could have been made, without

being needlessly offensive to MANY Christians.

[musette_sf]

40. i think the "Left Behind" series and its portrayal of Jesus

is 10,000X more offensive than the graphic that bothers you.

i'd rather think about a Jesus with a spine, than a Jesus who wants to wring out the blood of the non-believers and glory in their deaths.

[backscatter712]

21. The bitter tears of the offended sustain me.

Mmmmm, sweet tears. Let's do another one!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

23. I think it communicates...

a clear message regarding "the least amongst us".

[asteroid2003QQ47]

26. If for profit capitalist pig insurance companies have earned anything...

throughout the ages it's the middle finger from all, including 'Jesus!'

[asteroid2003QQ47]

37. CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book.

CHRISTIAN, n.
One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.
I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din --
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.
Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below,
With tranquil face, upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
"God keep you, strange," I exclaimed. "You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people, are a Christian too."
He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied -- his manner with disdain was spiced:
"What! I a Christian? No, indeed! I'm Christ."

The Devil's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce

[knitter4democracy]

39. I agree. Jesus wasn't blue-eyed, white, or blond.

I'm kidding only a little. I've long felt that God has a sense of humor, and I'm sure Jesus is just fine with those kinds of pics.

[pnwmom]

47. But you don't speak for all Christians any more than I do.

I don't think we should be deliberately offending people of any faith group (or not of a faith group, i.e. atheists.)

[knitter4democracy]

60. I guess I would hope that all of us would be able to gloss over it or laugh.

If I got offended by absolutely anything and everything offensive on DU, I wouldn't last long here.

[pnwmom]

63. I wouldn't be offended by the poster's own photograph of himself doing that.

Or a picture of Alfred E. Newman doing the same thing.

But I think that to many believers, that particular picture -- even though it is just an artists' conception of Christ -- would still be highly offensive.

[knitter4democracy]

65. Funny, at our Christian college, we loved Jesus jokes.

And it was a very conservative evangelical Christian college.

[pnwmom]

66. Maybe it's the age difference? n/t

[knitter4democracy]

67. Maybe, though our profs would get that glint in their eyes, too.

You know that look of when they want to laugh but know they shouldn't? That one. :)

We'd also sit around and talk about what we thought Heaven would be like. I voted for God hosting family home movie nights every Saturday night just to embarrass Moses and all the saints. :D

[Greyhound]

59. Many Christians are really offensive to many of us, so what?

We wish you'd keep your fantasies to yourselves.

[pnwmom]

64. The Christians on DU are your allies, but you're treating many of us like

your enemies.

What good will that do?

[Greyhound]

68. If we are allies, why do you act as if your beliefs have a higher precedence than mine/others?

How are the followers of a dogma that states that the overwhelming majority of people are inferior and doomed to eternal suffering acting as allies?

A dogma that says over half the population is mere property and subject to being forced to give birth regardless of circumstances and their own desires, allies?

Why are you all not concentrating all your efforts on fixing your own house instead of trying to push your beliefs on everybody else and insisting that we conform?

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, he is merely another enemy that I will still have to fight later.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

16. Love the pic.! ;-)

Religions play bare-knuckle rough all the time, while demanding kid-glove treatment in return.
--Salman Rushdie

“More people have been slaughtered in the name of religion than for any other single reason. That, my friends, that is true perversion.”
--Harvey Milk

Salman and Harvey are spot on!

[bobbolink]

17. And peace to you, too, buddy.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

24. Buddy?

I hardly know you!
----------------------

"Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet.
- The Wolf (Harvey Keitel) PULP FICTION 1994

[SoCalDem]

36. Insurance is the PROBLEM..not any part of the solution..n/t

[Kitty Herder]

49. Amen! nt

[Indenturedebtor]

57. Yeah pretty much whatever the Ins companies are against... I'm strongly FOR! n/t

[musette_sf]

38. if i could K&R this post and graphic

i would. from what i've read, Jesus did not suffer fools gladly.

[Kitty Herder]

48. ROFL!

My sentiments exactly.

[CrispyQ]

2. How can you force people who have no money to pay for insurance?

Who in the hell thinks this is a solution to our problem? :grr: If the 46 million who are without insurance had the money to pay for it, most of them would have it! Yes, there are many who have preexisting conditions & that's why they can't get insurance, but there are millions & millions more who simply do not have the money to pay for insurance.

Arghh!!!!! We are not going to get the fucking insurance companies out of our health industry, are we?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

6. We are...

If we make some real noise about it and put some fear in our congresscritters. Now is not the time to sit back, crack a cold one, fart and believe that all is now flowers and puppies.

[pnwmom]

9. Who? Millions of people who voted for Hillary and Edwards, among others.

Also, economists like Krugman who have crunched the numbers.

The cost of any insurance mandate would have to be regulated and based on income.

[tsuki]

4. Major insurers...major rip-off. nt

[YOY]

5. I have no problem with capitalism. I have a problem with parasitic industries.

Those that provide services that should be socialized and not privatized and cannot be exported...at cost exceding that of regular services.

[old guy]

7. There will never be single payer universal health care

as long as the insurance and pharmaceutical companies are involved. It is that simple IMO.

[Fumesucker]

8. I think we are going to end up being forced to have insurance to get a job..

That's what the insurance companies want, everyone forced to buy their product.

Not to mention that's what Hillary envisioned..

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Hey, I've got a funny notion -

Instead of mandating that people purchase private insurance, then trying to deal with paperwork from dozens of different insurance companies, each with different plans and different coverage, have a certain amount deducted from everybody's income, kind of like how SS is done, and use that income to cover everybody in the country, from birth to death.

If the 8% that big-shot industrialist is paying turns out to be more than he would ever pay out of pocket for his own insurance, he still benefits by having a healthier, more productive workforce that will make him more money in the long run. If what person A is paying covers person B's methadone treatments, maybe person B won't mug person A on the way home from work one night.

FUCK THE PRIVATE INSURANCE INDUSTRY

[pnwmom]

15. The Clinton/Edwards plans didn't require private insurance.

They allowed people to buy into a large number of plans (the plans offered to members of Congress and other federal employees), including a single payer, government run plan like Medicare.

[bobbolink]

18. That bothered me at first. Then I realized it was brilliant...

If the single-payer plan is done right, it would quickly gain lots of members, and the rest would first lower prices, then, hopefully, shrink out of sight.

Only the very rich would be left with the private companies. Just like in other countries.

[pnwmom]

28. That's also what Hillary predicted. So in effect, this would be a large step

on the road to single payer.

[bobbolink]

33. Well, we HOPE it would be a large step.

I certainly don't underestimate the insurance corporations, and the danged Pharmcos!

If we don't start some massive education efforts, and very soon, we may not get very far with this battle. Most people haven't heard anything beyond the propaganda. :(

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. You realize, don't you, that Medicare bases its payment rates

on those of the private insurance industry. IIRC, the law is written that way so the government will not be 'in competition' with private insurance. People can not save money by migrating to the government plan. They will only save money by picking a plan that has a higher deductible and lower benefits. IOW, it turns the government into just another private insurer.

It is still private insurance that is making the rules.

[pnwmom]

29. That wouldn't have been the case under HRC's plan (I'm not as familiar

with Edwards). She specifically said that the private insurers WOULD be in competition with the government plan and that she expected many of them not to be able to compete in terms of costs. And that if the private market withered away on that basis, so be it.

You're right that the CURRENT law doesn't allow government to be in competition with private insurers -- but the law will be completely re-written with the introduction of any new universal health plan.

[Cleita]

32. Medicare would have to undergo a rehaul as it was recognized in the

Medicare bill HR676. Fees would be determined by agreement with medical care providers like doctors, hospitals etc. on an annual basis so that everyone is happy with the program and patients get the best quality health care for the least cost to the taxpayer.

[Gold Metal Flake]

13. Cut Out The Middle Man. Single Payer Only.

[bobbolink]

19. That's what we would all prefer. (OK, most of us who are sensible... hehehe)

But in this country, unless you are prepared to do a MASSIVE education campaign, it won't fly from the beginning... people will have to see that it works well before having the courage to sign up for it.

Sad, but true, I think.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

20. F*ck them. I want Single Payer Universal Health Care.

[Romulox]

22. NO MORE corporate handouts! nt

[superduperfarleft]

27. Mandating coverage is the only way a universal health insurance plan would work.

(Notice I said universal health INSURANCE not universal health CARE. There is an enormous difference.)

You have to force people to join in order to make the risk pool large enough to mitigate against the risk of having to cover someone regardless of medical history.

I think it's a horrible idea for a variety of reasons, and would much prefer a Canadian-style single-payer system where the government acts as the one single insurance company, but that's the unfortunate fact of promoting universal health insurance as opposed to universal healthcare.

[pnwmom]

30. Which is what Paul Krugman has said. People who think otherwise

don't understand the concept of insurance.

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. People somehow think of insurance as something invented to help them

rather than something invented to make money for the insurance company.

All my life I'd heard about AARP as being an advocacy group for seniors - seeing the positions they've taken it is obvious it is just a cover for insurance companies. I tore up my card and denied them my $20 or whatever it was ever since their support for the pharma bill which did virtually nothing for seniors but a lot for insurance companies and big pharma.

[pnwmom]

46. I was also disappointed with their position on the pharma bill.

That has been a disaster.

[sarcasmo]

34. It's gonna be a mess, I have friends who don't have health insurance and couldn't pay for it, if

They were forced too, it's a terrible plan that will only make the Insurance companies money.

[superduperfarleft]

42. That's true. That's why they support it. n/t

[sarcasmo]

45. Just like Mandatory car insurance that you never use but have to pay for.

If you have plpd you never use that insurance but pay the premium to drive.

[pnwmom]

50. How do you know that it wouldn't be designed so that poor people

wouldn't pay anything and that the cost would be determined by income? So that those able to pay more would pay more?

Right now, there are millions of people who can't buy an individual plan no matter what the cost -- they are simply excluded.

[sarcasmo]

55. Do you think the Insurance companies would make money that way.

[pnwmom]

56. No, and neither did HRC. She acknowledged that the private insurers

might find it difficult to compete against the government plan -- because of the private insurers' need to build in a profit -- and she said, in effect: too bad. If they can't compete, they can stop selling insurance.

[Cleita]

31. Mandated insurance puts a burden on families who can't afford it and

since the insurers are in the business of denying as much health care as they can get away with, now you will have to pay for insurance you can't afford for health care you won't get. Actually, Edward's plan was to sell Medicare in the open market competing with private insurers. Medicare would also be provided for those who couldn't afford to buy into it. The purpose was to give businesses a chance to get lower priced insurance from the government than the private insurers could provide and still insure all those who are uninsured. So it's not a new candy store for the insurers to force everyone to buy their product as they would have you believe.

[sarcasmo]

35. Exactly why Mandated insurance is wrong.

[knitter4democracy]

41. I have a better idea: kick the insurance co's out and nationalize it.

Screw mandated insurance--that would kill people. People who can't afford insurance now wouldn't be able to magically afford insurance then, either, so they're going to go without and then die from lack of care.

A much better idea is to get rid of the medical insurance companies. One paper form for all claims (that alone would save billions in health care costs every year), one plan for all, and no crazy insurance company crap.

[Cleita]

43. I've been advocating that even before Hillary came up with her first plan

during Clinton.s first term. Even before DU was born I was fighting freeper types about NHC on other message boards and here we still are today trying to convince people that the privatized system of for profit health care and health insurance has to go the way of the dinosaurs.

[pnwmom]

51. HRC thought of her plan as a steppingstone. I think the only real disagreement

among most of us is whether it is politically feasible to get to single payer in one step , or whether there has to be a longer process to get there. HRC had said that she thought that, under her plan, many people would opt for the government run options because they would be a better value -- and if the private companies dropped out because they were unable to compete (and still make a profit) -- then so be it. Eventually, we would likely move to a single payer system.

Right now there are millions of people who, due to preexisting conditions, cannot buy individual insurance at any price. When are we going to help those people?

[Cleita]

52. The problem is once the law is written it's very hard to change.

Medicare has worked this long because it was written to work for a long time. Allowing the insurers to have a fist in the taxpayer's cookie jar is not good. This is what would happen. This is how Massachusetts handles it's health care and it's breaking the system badly. Do some googling and read up on it. There is a lot of information out there on why mandated health insurance is a bad idea.

[gravity]

54. Let the insurance stay

but have a free government plan to compete against it.

If the private insurance provides better coverage, then people will still buy it. If not, then the free market will decide their fate.

[knitter4democracy]

61. I like how you think.

Use their own ideas against them. Very nice.

[gravity]

53. It makes sense form an actuarial basis

There is no way offering voluntary insurance with no pre-conditions, without the system being gamed.

It isn't fair not too pay insurance, then getting into it after you have a very expensive need for it. There is no incentive for anyone to buy insurance in that case. It will be cheaper to pay normal doctor visits out of pocket, and you can buy insurance only when you find out you have to pay a lot.

Everyone needs to pay into it the insurance pool so that the Insurance companies have the money to actually provide care for people.

The government does have to step in and offer tax credits to those who can't afford insurance for this to be universal coverage.

[Greyhound]

58. This amply demonstrates why we must abolish the industry through

universal single payer health care. As long as these blood sucking parasites are allowed to exist we will continue to be murdered by them in the name of profit.

You cannot negotiate with a parasite nor can you change it.

[DireStrike]

62. Of course they will, because they are redundant and useless

If they don't get to play in any new governmental system, they're out on their asses where they should be.

I'm afraid they won't get tossed to the wolves though. Now is a time to cut the chaff from our system, and health insurers are the most useless and egregiously wasteful element in society. Except perhaps no-bid military contractors.