What's to become of DU?

[last1standing]

DU was established, literally, at the inauguration of bush's* first term when the admins of DU stood out in the cold with their banner. It became a refuge for those of us who were sick of watching Democrats get filleted by the repubs. We came here to find others who were as angry and despondent as we were. It was our home where we could all whine, bitch and moan about the same things and we became a family doing so.

Now it's a different story - we won. It started in 2006, but in 2008 we won all the marbles - Senate, House and Presidency. I think it's true that success breaks up as many families as failure because I see Democrat attacking Democrat, friend attacking friend. There are people I have commiserated with for years now telling me to shut my mouth and stop pushing for GLBT rights. There are people I defended from others now joining them in ridiculing my desires and telling me my rights have no place at the table.

There are definitely many here who are livid with Obama for not choosing their dream team and for allowing Lieberman to keep his chair. They want to play armchair strategists while having no clue how Washington, and politics in general, really work. But there are also those who are repressing any dissent or discussion of how we feel Obama should proceed with his administration. Does DU allow for disagreement when a Democrat is in charge or does it become a sycophantic forum who's only purpose is that of cheerleading? Based on the harsh shut down of even polite disagreements, I think that in the short term, it will be the latter.

I know DU will survive and that, eventually, the bullies and self-appointed bouncers will get bored and go off to find some other forum to dominate, taking their cronies with them, but for now DU is no longer the home I found way back in 2001. It's not the place I helped moderate for two terms and it's not the forum for honest discussion that it once was. So long as Democrats continue their majority DU can never be what it was in the beginning but it will be interesting to see how it handles success. Does DU morph into 'Progressive Underground' or does it simply remain a gathering point for anyone who supports the majority opinion? It can't be both unless a strong stance is taken on intimidation.

For those aching to make clever 'don't let the door hit you' comments, this isn't my Walt Starr moment. I'm merely expressing an opinion that may not be popular here right now. I probably will recede for some time, checking up to see if things have calmed down from time to time, but I'm not renouncing my membership in DU or lamenting my time spent here. I'm just looking to express my disappointment with some of the results of success.

[Lex]

1. It won't change much at all.

Still current events to debate, political moves to discuss, Faux Noise to ridicule, and Republicans to outrage us.

[Cha]

60. You're so right..

Ever vigliant and it's a great place for me to catch up on news since I don't watch tv for that.

There'll always be politics to discuss..we just won't have mess around with trying to get the bushits outta power.

Too bad their traitorous crap will be lingering for so long.

[Orrex]

2. I hang out on DU for one reason and one reason only: for the porn

And I'm hardly alone in this regard.

[louis-t]

5. What? I've missed the porn? For 5 years?

Giggety.

[Orrex]

16. Looks like you'll be spending some time in the archives

Happy hunting!

[Dr. Strange]

41. They call it the "Cooking & Baking Group"...

but it's porn.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. No sex threads!

:evilgrin:

[Orrex]

15. Not unless you know where to look...

:freak:
:spank:

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. ..

:evilgrin:

[Deja Q]

48. I think that's a misprint; you meanL "For the gorn"

[Orrex]

62. No, I always type exactly what I meanL

Porn! Porn! Porn!

[GrantDem]

61. PORN!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. I will stick.

And I will respectfully offer my honest opinions, for such is the nature of a healthy forum.

Besides, when you are sick, this place gives the best get-well messages anywhere. I mean, from Lala Rawraw??!! Be still my palpating heart! ;-)

[mike_c]

4. I hear you-- after seven years or so of belonging to the DU community...

...I've come perilously close to my own "Walt Starr moment" lately. Hopefully things will settle down a bit as more common goals emerge after Jan 20.

Or maybe we'll all just flame out in grand style while the peanut gallery jeers. It's all good.

[Eurobabe]

8. I spend alot less time on here

I've got my life back after 8 horrendous years of Bush. I'll never give up the Photography Group or JBSG though. Use an egg timer and limit your stress! :hi:

[Bucky]

52. Me to.

I think DU will continue, but its mission may have to change. President Obama & Senator Reid's leniency toward Joe the Bummer has ensured that the progressive voice has to be prepared to push our leaders toward the moral high ground. I'm all for bipartisanship, but taking sides in a debate has to have consequences.

[yodoobo]

6. Palin in the new Bush

If she fades away, DU will find a new bogeyman to rally against.

Thats not a dig at DU, just a dynamic of groups organized under similar circumstances.

[walldude]

7. I don't know, but I can say this

I come here less and less. If I'm in a good mood when I get here I leave pissed off. If I'm pissed off when I get here I leave furious. It's not healthy.

[EFerrari]

17. I've been skating right on the edge lately and have just shut down

the machine. But, it's me as much as anyone else or DU. That whole internet mob thing isn't healthy because we type faster than we think, imho.

Anyway, it's good to see you, walldude. :hi:

[walldude]

49. You too! The down side to not coming around much

is less interaction with you and Rat and Nance and Juniper and, and , and. I was hoping the victory would chill things out a little. Oh well....

[hfojvt]

24. what makes you mad?

complacency of DUers, or hyper-critical DUers, or just the information that corpo-fascism is marching on?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Me too. Groupthink has gone beyond mere irritation.

Besides, there are a helluva lot of good books to read.

[last1standing]

30. Same here.

Any discussion that doesn't emphatically support President-elect Obama and his decisions are shut down in the most reprehensible manner by a crew of bullies. The funny thing is, I support Obama and think he's making, mostly, the right moves. My comments are usually based on what I'd like to see him do in future but even that is not tolerated here right now.

I didn't donate and vote for Obama just so that I could worship him for the next several years. I did it in the hope that he would enact policies and make decisions that I believe in, however, knowing that no one is perfect, I want to express my ideas on where his administration should go. That is verboten at DU right now because of the intimidation of the 'me too' crowd.

This is honestly the first time I can think of that discussing the future is effectively off-limits at DU.

[walldude]

50. I know, I bitched about Lieberman and it was taken as a

personal insult to Obama. And I too, was and am, a huge Obama supporter.

[Individualist]

35. Same here

I'm not an adherent of lockstep nor "my party right or wrong". Those are for neocons and DLCers.

[pacalo]

10. Good post.

No one likes my-way-or-the-highway group think. That means no one is really doing their own thinking. And damn you if you give an original thought in a torches-&-pitchforks thread. (I'm stictly thinking back on the Primaries formum.)

[BanTheGOP]

11. Remember MoveOn.org

MoveOn.org is most probably the greatest example of how a website can go BEYOND it's original mission and become quite effective in its own right. That site was created, almost on a whim, to prevent the impeachment of President Clinton from being carried out through popular outcries. They succeeded...and in that success, provided the blueprint to how progressives could become active. In short, they've not only 'moved on', they've set the standard.

Democratic Underground, in my opinion, will not only survive, it will FLOURISH in the upcoming years as we hold the fire to our progressive members in Congress and the presidency. In addition, now that the republican party is greatly reduced, we can apply even MORE pressure on the republican party until they are completely destroyed.

In short, the fight has only begun. It must be a continuing one until:

1. Capitalism is dead
2. republicanism is dead
3. Progressive values permeate every tenet of American society
4. The military stands down
5. The courts are all progressive, and integrated with the world court system

Of course, it will always be ongoing. But the MAIN function is to destroy the republican party and ensure that progressive values become the only values that people adhere to.

[pacalo]

20. Welcome to DU, BanTheGOP!

:hi:

Excellent post!

[KoKo]

59. um.....I don' t think what you say is the goal of most of us here in the literal way you describe it

[BanTheGOP]

65. What goals are missing or misunderstood?

This is a progressive website, dedicated to the elimination of capitalism (which leads to corporate malfeasance), and republican tenets in general. Can you clarify?

[Buzz Clik]

12. Will the last one out please turn off the lights?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

22. I got it.

[EFerrari]

13. Tolerating or interacting with different opinions requires some flexibility

and trust, and even, humor. After the last eight years, a lot of us don't have much of those handy any more.

Maybe we'll have our own transition in the coming months, from waiting for the next awful thing from Bush to a little less stressful posture as saner people go into office. Maybe if we don't have to defend against BushCo so much, we can relax a little with each other.

I expect the RW media outlets to go to war with Obama and the Democrats earlier rather than later. There will be a lot to do to counter that, imho.

This is a funny time -- unstructured, a between time. I hope we can enjoy some of it, and look forward to four productive years. :)

[NJmaverick]

14. There will be more friction as the uniting goal of over throwing

the GOP tyranical rule is gone. With no threat on the horizon you will see people's special insterests being pushed more. Still in the end we will have some basic liberal views and values that unite most of us.

[hfojvt]

18. I think lots of DUers are not that easy to intimidate

there has always been alot of ad hominem arguing, taunting, name-calling on DU. I expect we will have flair-ups between those bewailing an Obama administration that is not progresssive enough and those cheering an Obama administration that is a million times better than Bush - unless the admins take a side against weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[EFerrari]

23. Why should they do that, in your opinion?

Should one of our goals as a community be to work for a less progressive party? Wouldn't the admins have to rewrite the site's mission?

[hfojvt]

29. I didn't say that they should, only that they could

Often the Jeremiads will totally write off the Democratic Party in favor of Nader, Sheehan, McKinney, etc. I often sympathize with the complaints of the more progressive, but think the severity is often over-stated. Nor do I support a retreat to third or fourth parties. I think the PDA, DFA route is more pragmatic, although Lieberman, damn him to hell, shows that the incumbentocracy is pretty solidly intrenched.

[EFerrari]

33. Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying!

[The_Casual_Observer]

19. How can you be subversive when you are in control of the power?

The essence of DU has been it's subversive character.

[Pastiche423]

40. Uh, WHO is in control of power?

It certainly is not the progressives.

[Life Long Dem]

21. Right now they are trying to divide the party.

[dhpgetsit]

26. I think we all have our own "pet issues"

Mine happens to be the struggle to support labor and get corporate power out of our government.

The election of 2008 was so exciting and I'm sure none of us will ever forget it. But it's reasonable to expect DUers to go off in different directions now as they all start focusing on their own "pet issues".

Peace.

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. The General Election has been decided. All but two senate seats have been decided.

Even Prop H8te seems destined for defeat in the California Supreme Court. For the period between the last primary and the GE, for the most part, we were of a common mind, a common goal defined by an immediate need. We were all rowing in the same direction. Now that we can see the finish line, we've begun coasting. As the boat drifts left and right we can't seem to get back in synch. Some row forward and some row backward. We're all trying to send the boat off on a different tangent. The immediate need was satisfied. Now we're all over the place as a group and it seems like the finish line is getting farther away. It isn't though.

We're doing what we do best. We're being Democrats. Stay and play. You know it'll be fun. Take a breath and have some patience. Don't give up the fight now that we're so close. We pretty much need each other.

Peace.

[last1standing]

36. I'll never give up on progressive ideas or working to enact them.

I'm just giving up on trying to express my opinions at DU only to be shouted down by a few extremely obnoxious posters and their fan clubs.

[RedCappedBandit]

31. Theres always more work to do

Consequently, there's always something to bitch about.

Hence, we have DU. :D

[last1standing]

34. The problem is that our bitching has become unacceptable to some.

And, unfortunately, they are the loudest and most belligerent posters. They have attracted a crowd of sycophants who follow them to post snark as they shut down any discussion or complaint. It has become the anti-DU.

Yes, DU will continue and probably grow larger. The question is whether there will still be a place for those of us who want to discuss our ideas when they contradict Democratic policy.

[RedCappedBandit]

43. As long as the administration of this site

is on our side, it doesn't matter how loud or belligerent majority is.. or it shouldn't, at least.

[H2O Man]

32. It's odd lately.

Just my opinion.

[amitta]

37. i'm waiting to see

what will this site be after January.
cheerleading or discussions?
not interested in battling personalities.

[last1standing]

38. Me neither.

DU becomes much less interesting if the only voices heard are those sanctioned by the loudest few.

[ramapo]

39. I've been wondering the same

I meant to post something about this today and just didn't get to it.

I've been here from the beginning and have always found DU to be a great place to come and commiserate. My first four years here I was "mad_as_hell" but after Kerry lost, I just wasn't angry any longer, just disgusted.

The months (years) of the just finished campaign were a great time to be here, plenty of spirited discussion but all towards one goal, regaining the White House.

But the last few days I have found DU to be a bewildering place. It seems many have tasted the ecstasy of triumph and found it to be lacking. You'd almost think that Obama had become the enemy from some of the recent posts.

There's an almost angry tone here. Be it Clinton, "recycled" Clinton-ites, the big three bailout, or Prop 8, it seems there's much negative energy.

I don't like it. What really highlighted the situation was a couple of emails I got yesterday from the Obama transition. Both were asking for my ideas and input and there were a couple of simple questions that I couldn't really answer around how we should move forward and how was I going to help.

I don't want to hang out here and bitch and moan. It is time to focus on fixing what is wrong with our country. Now we don't have an excuse.

[rvablue]

42. It's changing to BEOTC

sounds like a bad word, but really it's just:

"Blame Everything On The Clinton's"

Forget that we had a low federal debt, historic growth in jobs, a budget surplus, gays accepted into the military, the first effort toward universal health care in a modern presidency, no wars, and the inception of AmeriCorps....Bill Clinton was only a DINO, and equally, along with Bush, ruined our country!!!

Everything is their fault. Chant it. Whine about it. And repeat incessantly even if the facts don't hold it up.

:sarcasm:

[annabanana]

44. There are still many many good and reasonable discussions here..

. . well maybe not in GD-P or during primetime here in GD.. But the discussions go on.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Life goes on. We'll continue hating on each other for 47 months a year. n/t

[catnhatnh]

46. The enemy of MY enemy is my FRIEND...

Unfortunately this is only true until our enemy is dead. Then in both joy and relief we look at each other and reassess...

What has passed is the winter of our discontent. What lies ahead can not yet be known. The best goal is for the betterment of all who struggled here because each IS my DU brother or sister. And each deserves some measure of betterment-the level of our mutual drive IS debatable, but all politics is a compromise between individual desires and group direction.

If you signed on here, it was for redress of grievances. And now we find our grievances may not be those most important to the majority and are disappointed. Like it or not, priority one will be the economy, if only because without being addressed people will lose homes, go hungry, and die because of lack of heat this winter. Priority two will be universal health care just as soon as we realize one large cause of our economic collapse in the manufacturing sector is tied to the old economic system and causing the failure of American corporations to be able to compete on a level playing field because this is the standard of developed country the world over. Three will be laying out a pathway away from the imperialism of two front wars.

I could easily name a top ten list of other priorities and lay them out to my own choices-but the fact is that my one, two, and three are at the top of most DU lists. After that we can dance for hours over the priority of the lists...my next is the restoration of habeas corpus and ending domestic surveillance and accountability for past crimes. Then I'd like to see gay rights recognized and religion driven from the public discourse. I want to see major moves toward renewable energy and oil Independence.

I came here after the election of 2004. My kindred souls arrived before me. We can ALWAYS be an Underground that appeals to the better angels of all our members. For most of us we take the 95% We agree with and parse the rest.

We are individuals, one hundred thousand strong. I will never piss upon the honestly expressed opinion given in the spirit of the board. Come here falsely and take your due. Be wrong-to my mind-and I will honestly seek to oppose you. I will try only to oppose you with facts.

We head towards a better future. As a democrat of 50 years we face our best opportunity. On this board your enemies are mostly those who have different priorities, not different goals. Go forward with our dreams and make our country what you always dreamt it was.

[last1standing]

57. You're absolutely right about priorities. the economy comes first, second and third.

The wars and universal healthcare are both tied up with our economy and must be resolved for us to move forward. If we don't avert this economic tailspin we're in, there will be no United States as we know it to address civil or constitutional rights.

My point, however, is that while we do need to focus on the economy first and foremost, those of us who would criticize or even discuss the Obama administrations actions are often being made the brunt of ridiculous tirades and downright bullying. As an example, another DUer created a thread today stating that Tom Daschle made him gag. He then listed his reasons based on Daschle's actions as Senate Majority Leader. Not long after that, another poster attempted to shoot him down with some snide comment about Daschle eating puppies as well. I haven't checked to see if that thread has turned into a complete flamewar, yet, but others, including some of mine, have.

The idea that we must all march in lockstep is antithetical to me and to many other good Democrats who support Obama but also support our ability to discuss issues without being bullied and ganged up on by the loudest mouths and their cronies. At least in my case, it's not that I am demanding, or even expecting, that Obama would or should change his plans but I think it's important to criticize our government, even those we support.

Lastly, I don't consider anyone here, even those whose posts I despise, my enemy. Perhaps that is why it bothers me to see this groupthink mentality take hold so much.

[catnhatnh]

47. It took nearly an hour to compse my reply...

...and I think the discussion is very important. If you think so, shouldnt you also put this puppy on the greatest page?

[last1standing]

55. That's up to you and others, not me. I can only write a post, I can't recommend it afterward.

However, I am going to take some time to read what you wrote above and try to provide a thoughtful response.

[pat_k]

51. Beltway Blindness and groupthink are alive and well. . .

Have no fear; we've got plenty to do. And communities like DU are an essential part of ANY effort.

If we want our elected officials to actually Do Some Damn Thing to enforce the terms of our common contract and get back on the path to a 'more perfect union,' we've got to keep challenging the self-defeating beliefs that have become 'conventional wisdom' both inside and outside the beltway.

Notions like

"Can't win; Don't fight. Must keep our power dry"
Don't fight and risk losing tomorrow when you can lose today by issuing a pre-emptive surrender

"Look forward, not back"
Sweep the truth under the rug.

"Mustn't get 'personal'"
It is unseemly to actually accuse violators of their violations.

"Outrage is bad. Suppress it."
Kill off the energy that drives political action.

"It's about ideas; not people"
Keep it boring. No heroes to inspire; No villains to vanquish.

"Mustn't look 'vindictive' by holding people accountable;
just promise to 'fix the system' so it 'doesn't happen again.'"
People aren't responsible for their actions.

"10,000 calls demanding action? Don't worry, it's just 'the left.'
One Republican threatening to call us names if we act? Run for the Hills!"
It's better to piss off your constituents than to do something that could get you frowned at cocktail parties.

"When the law is violated, don't enforce it, 'restore it."
When government officials violate a law pass a duplicate law.

As long as dysfunctional, irrational, and immoral 'guiding principles' like these remain so pervasive, we will have a dysfunctional, irrational and immoral Party, and a dysfunctional, irrational, and immoral government.

Impeachophobia is just one symptom of the groupthink and false memes that have immobilized, and will continue to immobilize Members of the Democratic caucus. It is like an illness. One that can only be 'cured' if we persistently challenge the false memes wherever we encounter them -- in the Halls of Congress, in the print or broadcast media, or in our virtual and 'real world' communities.

The outrageous dereliction of this Congress stands as the ultimate example of WHY it is so crucial for more of us to get in there and challenge them -- and to do it "up close and personal." And people are doing it. The powerful resistance we are up against is leading people to employ "people-power" in a different, more direct, and I believe more effective, way. We have been witnessing shifts that have the potential to transform politics as we know it.

There's a reason that corporations hire lobbyists. There is no more powerful means of influence than one-on-one, personal, back and forth, exchange. Wanna create a force worth 500 million bucks of "professional" corporate lobbyist muscle? Figure out a way to recruit and fund 10 citizen lobbyists in your Congressional district. Figure out the means by which the people of your district can "hire" them to lobby on their behalf.

Doesn't sound impossible does it? Do it in every district and you've got your 500 million dollar force (435 x 10 lobbyist @ $2300 per week for 50 weeks.)

[EFerrari]

54. Today I learned that the last book Cody's sold before that historic bookstore

closed down on Telegraph Avenue was The Case for Impeachment.

The people are not blind.

[catnhatnh]

56. Thanks

Nice story...

[EFerrari]

58. It's true. I saw a documentary about Cody's and about Kepler's

(Kepler's was earlier, across the bay and near Stanford.) They taped the last few hours of the Cody's closing and as he left, one of the staffers asks the last customer what he bought. He holds it up and the crew and owner all cheered.

[arcadian]

53. With the impending economic crisis, a new forum DU:Stone Age

n/t

[TheKentuckian]

63. Hey if we can make future generations look back on the last 40 years

and say WTF were they thinking with thanksgiving to the time sanity returned and blossomed then that would be a worthy mission.

Lets burn down Ronnie Raygun's house and salt the ashes! It'll be a great gift to the future.

[spanone]

64. it will continue to be the wonderful community it's been since it's existence

:hi:

[bluesmail]

66. I recently had a DU Freeper experience

so I do know what you speak of. DU will survive but it will never be the same. :hi:

[4_TN_TITANS]

67. We're like cockroaches and coyotes...

Liberals would survive a nuclear holocaust, plus we never run out of stuff to bitch about.

I would say that DU will be an even more vital resource as the country attempts to climb out this economic mess. And, who else is going to hold an Obama administration to the thing we were promised?

Just because we finally won a big one doesn't mean the fight is over.