Could the Big 3 bailout be a political battleground?

[Gregorian]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/20/32150/218/119/663984

There are a thousand comments on this thread. Lots of information and perspectives.

I think this is an important aspect of the discussion. This could be a Republican wet dream, if we play it into their hands.

To quote a quote from the diary-

10 to 12 million jobs lost, boom!, 200 to 1 trillion dollars in emergency social spending to deal with the collapse's impact on the region, the UAW dead and Wal-Mart the biggest employer in the region, Michigan in full economic collapse and millions of voters ripe for being in play in the next round of the Culture War.

The GOP, and the media pundits who are all clamoring for Obama and the Congress to let the auto industry die will be damning us and running against the Democratic Party as the party that 'Let Michigan Die' or 'Let Detroit Die' for a generation if the auto industry is allowed to die.

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

1. Big 3 execs

got exactly what they wanted from Congress: license to declare bankruptcy, which will free them from the crippling burden of employer pensions and healthcare. But the real prize for them in filing bankruptcy is the nulling and voiding of any and all agreements made with the Unions.

Just watch.

[Gregorian]

4. And their creditors will be hurt as well.

Investors will lose bigtime.

This may not even hurt the employees as much as many think. It may just allow the companies to ignore their debts and carry on as they have been.

I am concerned that this could be a double whammy. Or worse. Republicans use this as a hammer on Democrats in the next ten years. Employees lose. AND we end up losing in the race to produce viable electric cars.

[bluecollarcharlie]

12. What do you mean it wont hurt??

I don't know where you got that idea but if you take my paycheck away i'm gonna hurt. You take anybodies paycheck away they're gonna hurt. Who cares about the frickin' investors? Go back and look at your post, man. Read it aloud. "This may not even hurt the employees as much many think."? Think with what? We are talking about a company gone. Massive unemployment, foreclosures, credit defaults and college dreams shot to hell.
Oh my God.....

[Gregorian]

17. This brings up an important aspect of the whole situation.

Our society has been so strapped that people are living from paycheck to paycheck. This is part of the problem. That is one ragged way to be living. Or I should say, treating employees. When I was a kid in the 70's, my dad was laid off. For two years he didn't work. Things were a bit different. We survived.

There should be a provision for employees. I never meant that employees should just take what comes to them. Bailing out billionaires is total bs.

The bottom line is, these companies sat on their asses, one way or another, and marketed monstrosities. Yes, they have the ability to build the more efficient cars. And yes, Americans are partly to blame for buying the big pieces of metal. I'm angrier than anyone can imagine over this. And not just as of this meltdown. I've been furious for decades. I saw this coming in the 70's. I didn't wait in gas lines. I made my own car. I'm not kidding. A turbocharged propane fueled car. But I digress.

IF people had enough money to hold out until the companies turned themselves into competitive enterprises, then they'd actually be in a better situation. That's what's in my mind. Better companies with much better employee benefits and wages.

Now what do we do? Those billions absolutely should be going where they SHOULD go. Helping people survive until we pull ourselves out of this idiocy. If I saw it coming, you know the smarter people did too. No excuse. The big three. Keyword- big.

[Bandit]

15. Exactly who do you think their creditors actually are.

They are vendors that provide parts and products and people that transport those parts. If you declare that GM does not have to pay the company that transports their incoming parts or their outgoing products then you are striking at the very heart of America. All the trucking firms will suffer. Those companies that make parts such as Firestone and Goodrich and Borg Warner and RC Delco and Steel Companies, etc..Creditors aren't just some bank somewhere..

[Gregorian]

16. I see your point. But their creditors would lose too, if they walked away.

The creditors would take hits as well as everyone else. I hear people talking about the employees as if they're the only ones taking a loss. They may not only not lose their jobs, but they may end up in a better situation if the company actually starts becoming competitive. I'm not saying it's going to be pretty. And that's where the bailouts have been failures. Bailing out billionaires is wrong. We should be giving bridge loans to the workers as well.

[cyclezealot]

2. Is it really the CEO's their ( Kyl. Shelby.) after..

No. Their real pleasure is to put an end to unionism in the US... The UAW has made huge concessions to their workers health care benefits and accepted the two tier wage arrangement for new workers. A majority of UAW workers now work for half the salary they used to. But still for Kyl and Shelby that is not enough.

[Possumpoint]

3. Reality Is

It's not enough. Retirees outnumbering employees pulling retirement benefits of 95% of salary plus substantial health benefits is item 1. Item two is employees making a reported $70 dollars plus an hour including health benefits. Item three for GM is an excess of models with duplication through several divisions. These add up to an inability to be competitive. That spells the doom of corporations.

Call it union busting. Call it whatever you want but if a corporation isn't competitive, it will go out of business. Now because of the number of people involved a cry rings out to have the taxpayers support the corporation. BS!

You want to save the auto companies then force an immediate change in management and in the union agreements. Best method is through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filling.

[TheKentuckian]

5. Fuck all that corporate knobslobbing bullshit

How about we let your failed economic theory wither on the vine instead and we focus on what's best for the American people as a whole.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

6. As you smear U.S. auto companies you fail to realize that Japanese ...

... and German auto companies are facing the same financial/sales conditions but with far easier access to THEIR government subsidies. For them, government balouts are called "business as usual."
:shrug:

Repeating the $70/hour FALSEHOOD after that has been debunked many times is indicative of a kind of bias or recklessness in your posting. Stop. Please. Thanks.

[Possumpoint]

8. The US Auto Industry

is failing. It is disfunctional. Prove to me that the $70 combiened salray and benfits fiqure is wrong.

[TahitiNut]

10. So, you just make asinine claims and others need proof? OK ....

It's been on DU often enough that folks should have read it. Here's the current thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4502003

Then again ...

How much are current UAW auto industry wages?

In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor. Between 2003 and 2006, the wages of a typical UAW assembler have grown at about the same rate as wages in the private sector as a whole – roughly 9 percent. Part of that growth is due to cost-of-living adjustments that have helped prevent inflation from eroding the purchasing power of workers’ wages.

What is the compensation for auto industry executives?

The CEOs of Chrysler Group, Ford and GM earned a combined total of $24.5 million in salaries, bonuses and other compensation in 2006.

The next four highest paid executives received average salary and other compensation of $1.3 million at Ford and $1.4 million at GM. These substantial sums do not include the value of stocks and stock options that were also part of executive compensation.

Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?

In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.

How much value do UAW members contribute to their employers?

American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

People whose primary motive is to claim that autoworkers are somehow overpaid have apparently take all labor compensation costs, including executive compensation and retiree benefits, and divided by direct labor hours to come up with the $73/hour figure.

Then liars regurgitate that number and call it "pay" for the autoworker as though its what some blue collar assembly line worker gets. It's despicable deceit.

[Possumpoint]

13. If You Deduct The

Cost of Retirement Benefits for persons already retired what is your final figure.

[cyclezealot]

11. BS..

American corporations all over the US face a similar fate. Whether it be United Airlines or GM.. Early on, Unions did not want our employers charged with providing our social benefits.. You'll find most expect a system such as there is in the EU or Canada.. A joint responsibility between employers, employees and nation wide pensions and health benefit programs.. Your route is a denial of pensions and health benefits to ever increasing numbers of Americans.. You check out the legacy of the UAW under Walter Reuther, they did not trust benefits thru employers , but a national plan. But insurance companies and the Big Three felt that socialistic.. So the burden was unfairly placed on their backs.. Don't say Walter Reuther wanted it that way. The Big Three did.

[Possumpoint]

14. I'll stand by what I said

If a corporation cannot be competitive in today's market for reasons of mismanagement, bad business plan and high labor costs it must change or go out of business.

[madrchsod]

9. i see the "reagan democrats" never went away

i heard the same fucking bullshit before the collapse in the 1980`s. i worked with guys who thought reagan was the answer and they were to stupid to realize it was their union jobs that reagan was after.

it`s all about unions and punishing working class americans for voting for the democrats in the rust belt.

it`s so easy to blame people who actually want to be paid what they are worth is`t it....try working on a auto assembly line,or a steel mill,or working hundreds of feet in the air. ya we want to be paid for what we are worth do`t you?