Well That Was Not Cool.

[liberalmuse]

I had been changing the channel from MSNBC because I didn't care to see turkeys slaughtered. Unfortunately, I changed back at a very bad time. This makes me sick. How can we condone this barbarism? I'm am not one of those militant vegetarians but shit. Why do we treat animals this way?

[flvegan]

1. No idea what you saw, but "poultry" isn't covered by the HSA

Humane Slaughter Act. Neither are rabbits. Aren't we a fabulous country?

[liberalmuse]

2. Yeah.

I'm kind of sick right now.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

[flvegan]

5. Sadly, abuse is common in these situations.

PETA (love them or hate them) just finished an undercover investigation at a turkey operation. We'll just say that what they found would make you vomit.

Happy Thanksgiving, and all.

[liberalmuse]

12. I like PETA, but do not condone all their actions..

They really are a good service. Maybe I'm like Obama, willing to overlook some flaws if the overall message and impact is good.

[flvegan]

14. Completely agreed.

I have a couple friends that work there, and I call them all the time to rib them about some of the stuff PETA does.

[Daemonaquila]

35. I despise PETA

for their purely emotional, biology-ignorant approach to issues. However, every so often they do something useful, like showing up the cruelty in a factory farm. I find it amusing that the MSM is all huffy about the "suspicious" timing of this video's release. "Suspicious"? How about planned, duh. And there's nothing wrong with releasing that just before turkey-dinner day - it's a great strategy for making people look at what they're eating and buying with a careful eye.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. Putting ground glass in dog food for hunting dogs did them in for me.

[Luminous Animal]

61. Link? (n/t)

[KayLaw]

69. Sorry.

I don't believe that.

[tismyself]

73. I do too - -

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/index.cfm

[superduperfarleft]

74. So you get your information from

tobacco companies, slaughterhouses, and restaurant industry lobbyists? Do you even know what the CCF is?

Critical thinking - try it sometime, it doesn't hurt that much.

[tismyself]

77. BWAAAAA HAAHH HAHAAAHH HAAAHHHH

Stop it - I can't breathe!!!!!!!!


:popcorn:

[superduperfarleft]

78. Lack of oxygen can lead to brain damage.

That could explain a lot.

[AndrewP]

30. No doubt about that

[NCarolinawoman]

76. Maybe this video will change things...

I wonder how many children watched?

I wonder if a discussion about this will be brought up in the days ahead, as turkeys are bought and brought home from the supermarket.

[AirmensMom]

3. Made me kind of sick.

Glad we're not having turkey for Thanksgiving.

[liberalmuse]

6. We're doing vegan Asian.

MUCH better than dead turkey.

[AirmensMom]

8. That sounds yummy!

:9

Don't know yet what we're doing.

[liberalmuse]

11. Oh, it's good. Bamboo Garden. Seattle.

I love the owners, and it is the best vegan food ever! They are doing 'turkey' and corn chowder this year.

[leftchick]

25. I am making five cheese Lasagna

yum!

[orleans]

56. so....got a recipe you care to share?

i've never tried making lasagna--at least since i can remember....

i'm reconsidering because it sounds good...

[leftchick]

67. oops, it is four cheese

and I am glad to share. But warning, it took much longer to make than I anticipated. My husband and I spent most of the day last thanksgiving in the kitchen preparing this and drinking wine. It was a lot of fun and so much better than eating a bird.

:)

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/spinach-mushroom-and-four-cheese-lasagna-recipe/index.html







Spinach, Mushroom, and Four Cheese Lasagna

Prep Time: (More like 2 hours!)
40 min
Inactive Prep Time:
10 min
Cook Time:
1 hr 0 min

Level:
Intermediate

Serves:
8 servings

1 (20-ounce) package fresh spinach, tough stems removed and washed
5 tablespoons unsalted butter
1/4 cup minced shallots
2 teaspoons minced garlic
3/4 pound portobello mushrooms, stems removed and sliced (about 3 large)
3/4 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
1/4 cup all-purpose flour
4 cups whole milk
1/8 teaspoon freshly grated nutmeg
2 1/2 cups grated Parmesan
15 ounces fresh ricotta
1 1/2 cups grated Fontina or provolone
1 1/2 cups grated mozzarella
1 pound lasagna noodles, cooked to al dente

Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.

Bring a large pot of salted water to a boil. Add the spinach and cook for 2 minutes. Drain in a fine mesh strainer, pressing with a large spoon to release as much water as possible. Finely chop and set aside.

In a large skillet, melt 1 tablespoon of the butter over medium-high heat. Add the shallots and garlic and cook, stirring, for 1 minute. Add the mushrooms, 1/4 teaspoon each of the salt and black pepper, and cook, stirring, until the mushrooms are tender and have given off their liquid, about 5 minutes. Remove from the heat and let cool.

To make the bechamel sauce, in a large saucepan, melt the remaining 4 tablespoons butter over medium heat. Add the flour and cook, stirring with a wooden spoon, to make a light roux, about 2 minutes. Whisking constantly, slowly add the milk and continue to cook, stirring occasionally until thickened, 2 to 3 minutes. Add the remaining 1/2 teaspoon salt, 1/4 teaspoon black pepper, the nutmeg, and 1 cup of the Parmesan and cook, stirring, until thickened, about 2 minutes. Remove from the heat.

In a bowl, combine the ricotta, fontina, and mozzarella cheeses. Fold in 1/4 cup of the bechamel sauce.

Across the bottom of a deep-dish lasagna pan (13 by 9-inches), spoon enough bechamel sauce to cover (about 1/2 cup). Then add 1/4 of the mushrooms and sprinkle 1/4 of the spinach across. Arrange a layer of cooked noodles side-by-side across the sauce. Spread another layer of bechamel over the noodles and top with more spinach, mushrooms, and cheese. Repeat layering with sauce, noodles, spinach, and cheese 2 more times, ending with noodles on top. Sprinkle the remaining 1 1/2 cups of Parmesan over the top, cover tightly with aluminum foil, and bake until the noodles are tender and the lasagna is hot and bubbly, about 30 minutes. Uncover and continue baking until golden brown on top, about 10 minutes.

Let rest for 10 to 15 minutes before serving. Serve hot.



* The bechamel sauce can be a little tricky. I recommend practicing first if you have never made it before. Hint, do not stop stirring!

[orleans]

71. thanks for the recipe. it sounds yummy--are you making it again this year? n/t

[leftchick]

72. I sure am

Unless I can find another recipe to try. This is really heart attack on a plate but once a year is okay. ;)

[JuniperLea]

4. We will pay more...

But we'll have a free range turkey, and he won't know what hit him... stress hormones, like those found in chickens and eggs from cramped, dirty cages, and from cows mistreated, and pigs mistreated, are no good for humans either.

[liberalmuse]

9. I respect that.

I have friends who hunt, but they need the meat for survival, and they kill the animal quickly. I understand that many humans need to have meat to survive. It is a cruel world and that's just the way it is. I don't understand slaughterhouses and putting a Turkey into a meat grinder head first.

[OwnedByFerrets]

33. Im certainly not trying to stir anything up......

but WHO NEEDS hunted meat for survival? I honestly dont know. And, many times a hunted animal "isnt" a quick kill.

[Daemonaquila]

41. It's a matter of lifestyle and personal responsibility.

For those who eat meat and hunt well, hunting is a very humane alternative. We are responsible for what we kill, whether we choose to do it ourselves or let someone else do it for us and package it up neat and clean in the supermarket so we don't have to think about the icky aspects of it. Many good deer hunters will take a shot to the head or neck, and the animal generally drops and dies right off, so much in shock that it doesn't really feel much in those last seconds. That's a lot better than what happens in most slaughterhouses, the animal has a lot better life than many farmed/caged animals, and the animal has a real chance to survive rather than spend its whole life just being fattened up and waiting to be killed.

If there was anything that might have pushed me to giving up meat, it was the first time I was taught to clean a deer. She was a doe, still warm. I learned a lot of biology in skinning and gutting, and something else as well. I learned that you need to thank the animals you eat, that I'm not so easy with eating animals I haven't faced because it's just too easy to ignore their value when they're packaged up as neat cutlets in plastic, and that you do not waste meat. That's just wrong.

I think a lot of people would be better eaters (and consumers in general) if they had a more personal relationship with the lives they took to feed themselves.

[cyberpj]

13. Wondering how to find a good source and how to know if it's really true or not...

?

[TygrBright]

18. Google "CSA" in your area, and ask around at local Farmers' Markets.

A CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) farm operation will be happy to have you visit and see their operation from the inside, and explain how and why they do things the way they do.

My poultry CSA even offers extra discounts to members who will come and help out with big projects like hatching and holiday-time slaughter. I might do it some day, although it's a two and a half hour drive which makes it impractical on a regular basis. But no one who eats meat should disdain the messy parts of the supply chain-- at least, those undertaken on an ethical and humane basis.

All life lives at the expense of other life, but our responsibility at the top of the food chain is to ensure that we are mindful of the HOW as well as the what of our consumption.

preachily,
Bright

[liberalmuse]

20. I'm hearing you.

And you aren't preaching! I do believe that there are many people who simply do not do well with a vegetarian or vegan diet. We do need to be mindful of how we treat that which we consume, whether it be animal or vegetable. With the latter, I'm sounding a bit like a nut, but do believe that we should show respect for plants as well as animals.

[TygrBright]

23. Absolutely we should respect our food plants. And that includes NOT modifying their genes...

...and NOT monocropping them by the square mile by drenching them with chemicals, and NOT ripping the produce apart to the molecular level to create cheap compounds with no nutritional value except bulk simple carbohydrate that can be manipulated into a thousand different industrially-produced foodlike substances and...

oh, sorry...

:blush:

:rant:

meekly,
Bright

[DeschutesRiver]

38. I'd heard of CSAs but I thought they were just about veggies, not meat

I should look into a poultry CSA locally. We don't have chickens ourselves, as I can't let them free range here amongst the cougars and coyotes. They wouldn't make it, and I don't want to stick them eternally in a chicken coop.

We do raise our own cattle now; they live on a fairly vast acreage with us, hang in their herd grazing and doing what cattle do when they are out in the open all the time. Last time we slaughtered two, it took dh only one second and one shot per bull - I am now a believer that if I continue to choose to eat meat, then we will be the ones to raise and care for them, and whenever possible, end their lives ourselves, because that way I know for certain it was as ethical as possible.

If we ever get to the point that we can no longer raise our own, I will very likely become a vegetarian, which I was for a few years as a kid. I am fairly conflicted about eating meat, always have been. I am getting more and more appalled by how I see humans treat/mistreat animals. Some days I can't open certain cruelty threads, and am shocked by how much of this stuff I am seeing.

The freaking Palin interview was bad to watch, left the room once I got the idea of what was going on; in fact, I think I will skip the turkey this year. I rarely eat anything other than our own raised beef, esp. because I was already aware of all the issues with commercially raised chicken.

[Atman]

43. We went to a farmers market and found a local hippie organic turkey farmer

She only raised free range organically fed turkeys and chickens. While I couldn't be 100% certain that her birds were pure, her dreadlocks, hemp clothing and general hippie-ness gave me a good feeling that she was probably really, really serious about organic farming.

.

[panader0]

7. Ever read "The Secret Life of Plants"?

Plants are killed too to provide food, not just animals. The main thing is that there is no additives or pesticides.

[liberalmuse]

10. You're right.

I understand that, but I cannot condone needless cruelty. I respect the Kosher way, and am not unreasonable when it comes to understanding why most people eat meat. I will not judge anyone who does so, but I will soul search as to why we must be so barbaric when slaughtering animals. Perhaps if I lived in a place like Denmark, that did not have a systematic holocaust for animals, I might eat meat.

[panader0]

16. My first wife (1972-74) was a vegetarian

She got me on the bandwagon (I ate eggs). It wasn't hard because she was a good cook. I lasted about 6 months after we split up.

[liberalmuse]

19. LOL.

It isn't for everyone. I'm a person with old hunter and gatherer blood (type 'O' positive'), but I can't bring myself to eat meat. :(

[EmilyAnne]

36. People have been killed for food in parts of the world, too. What's your point?

I assume you are being intentionally obtuse, but if you really can't see the difference between killing a plant and killing an animal, I just don't know what to think.

[panader0]

49. Not intentionally obtuse, just honest

and no, I don't see the diiference. It's in your head.

[superduperfarleft]

65. If you don't see a difference between a plant's lack of CNS...

and a turkey being slaughtered, you must have a pretty warped idea of basic biology.

Or is the "PLANTS FEEL PAIN HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN!!!1111" crowd just trying to be a bit more clever than usual?

[TygrBright]

15. No details, please. Stories like this are why...

...we pay a lot more for our poultry, but get it through our own CSA where they are raised kindly and slaughtered humanely.

And it tastes a whole LOT better than that deformed, chemical-infused, mutant stuff the supermarkets sell.

shudderingly,
Bright

[liberalmuse]

17. No shame in that.

We are a savage planet. I do want to stress that I wish more people were like you and the other poster here. Make it quick. I think animals are so loving that they would willingly sacrifice themselves to the greater good. I guess that scene in 'The Last of the Mohecans' really rings true. If you kill an animal, at least have some respect for the sacrifice and unconditional love that being is offering you.

[a la izquierda]

21. Sick, sick, sick.

WTF is wrong with people? I'm not a militant vegetarian, but I have to tell you, I'm getting moreso by the day. My husband is about 10 steps ahead of me on the militancy issue.

[Warpy]

22. I usually do Chinese takeout for holidays

but I've got a Tofurky in the freezer.

Perhaps I'll be slaughtering the fatted tofu this year.

I'll just get veggie sides at the Chinese place so they don't miss me.

(I really want them to stay in business)

[SmileyRose]

28. tofurky?

OK, I admit, I really, and I mean REALLY hate tofu - the very idea of the tofu turkey just makes me squirm.

I think I'd rather double up on the Green bean casserole and that jello with the veggies in it someone always brings. :)

[Warpy]

50. It's actually very nice

Tofu is good if it's prepared correctly.

[superduperfarleft]

66. Tofurkey is the brand, not a description of the dish.

Tofurkey brand is actually a very nice grain meat, much like seitan. It's not a jiggling piece of tofu in the shape of a turkey (I agree, that wouldn't be very good).

[likesmountains 52]

24. Sorry if this sounds dumb, but how does the turkey die in that metal cone? It seems like it takes

a rather long time..what is actually happening in there? Thanks to anyone who can answer...I thought it looked inhumane.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

31. It seemed to take for bloody ever. The last turkey kept kicking too, why does it take so

long? What is happening to that creature?

[likesmountains 52]

45. That's what I was wondering..I see the whole metal apparatus shaking..

[nc4bo]

32. I think they slit the throat and allow them to bleed out (the big ugly tub). nt

[likesmountains 52]

46. and it looks like the turkey is struggling the whole time...

[OwnedByFerrets]

34. They cut their heads off and let them bleed

[nc4bo]

42. that's what I thought at first too, less cruel.

He slit the throat and he's holding the head back ugh....I zoomed the vid. When he pulls the bird out, the beak is still there and wide open.

What I found sad was he looks pretty dang happy while doing it. Palin seems really joyful too.

She's a disgusting human being and I thank God she's back in Alaska and not anywhere near the White House.

[likesmountains 52]

47. It sure takes longer than I expected..

[Sal Minella]

37. If the kill works like the Amish cone kill, the bird is put head down and the head is whacked off

cleanly against a log, with an ax. The headless bird is left in the cone to bleed out.

If not restrained in such a cone, a lot of reflex kicking and flapping goes on after the head is separated from the body.

When I was a kid, I was frightened to death of the beheaded chickens "running around" after their heads had been removed. If you've ever heard the phrase "running around like a chicken with its head cut off," that's where it comes from. The farm wife where my mother bought stewing hens just let the birds "run" around until they stopped. Then she hung them by the feet for awhile to let them finish bleeding out.

So there is this philosophical question -- if the head is separated from the body, how much is the bird aware of?

Decapitation is the method I would choose for myself if some heavy-duty barbiturate were not available.

Edit for clarity.

[phusion]

40. Check this out...

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.php

This chicken lived for 18 months w/o a head. Apparently the botched slaughter left part of his brain stem intact and the farmer kept him alive by feeding him with an eye dropper.

[nc4bo]

44. Why does it still have an open beak? Jeezus (can't believe I'm being this morbid)

Forgive me.



Well, it looks like a beak to me....sigh.

[Sal Minella]

51. It's a nasty business, slaughtering. I don't think you're being morbid.

It could be that the throats are slit on these turkeys instead of beheading them (as I've seen Amish do with ducks). To be honest I'm not brave enough to watch the video and find out.

I would be able to manage to kill a turkey, but do feel I have no moral right to eat pork or beef because I could not kill a hog or a steer.

I have tried being vegetarian many times, for moral reasons, and can't seem to make a go of it -- but I know killing animals for food is absurd, and bad for the planet, and bad for the spirit of the killers/eaters.

[Marrah_G]

68. That is how a guy I know does it.

He raises about 40 turkeys each year and was telling us how it's done. He raises them organically and sells them for only a small profit to friends and family. His brother raises a small amount of pigs and cows and does the same. He does all the butchering and even does the venison his friends bring him. In return he gets to keep some of the meat. It's really almost a lost skill. He isn't barbaric at all. He does what most families forgot how to do generations ago.

If civilization when kaput....I'd want him around!

[Spectral Music]

26. I'm having salmon on Thanksgiving.

I hate turkey.

[Lilith Velkor]

54. Salmon is yummy.

:hi:

[tularetom]

27. We're having pheasant

I was able to bag 2 of them this season. We've had it for the last three thanksgiving and last year we fed 30 people on it. This year we anticipate a much smaller crowd (like maybe 6) so I won't have to listen to my grandson bitching when he bit down on a piece of #6 shot.

The conditions in poultry farms are indeed appalling. What is even worse is what goes into things like turkey franks and turkey burgers. Don't ever ask what's in it if you are even a tiny bit squeamish.

[BrklynLiberal]

29. I could not watch..when the "get your kids out of the room" warning was

issued, I knew it was something I did not want to see.

I am a big supporter of The Farm Sanctuary and their work for humane care for animals.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/17219/peaceable-kingdom-a-tribe-of-heart-documentary/

http://www.tribeofheart.org/news/news.htm

[orleans]

57. i didn't watch either. my mother did. i went to another room--i told her

to not look at the tv, but i peeked around the corner and saw her facing the tv. then i hear her saying 'oh god' and groaning. i said: 'i see you watching--just look away!'

she says, "i'm not groaning over the turkey--they are hardly showing anything--i'm groaning over seeing that thing again" (meaning palin--she hates her, changes the channel when she comes on. i'm surprised she watched.)

[mmonk]

39. When I was younger, I remember one Thanksgiving some friends of mine

running around the yard with an axe chasing a turkey. I grew up a rural small town before I went to city life. I've seen chickens have their necks wrung, pigs slaughtered, slabs of beef put on hooks in the slaughter house, etc. You learn about alot concerning meat production and so it doesn't freak me out. But I know people in the city did not have the benefit of my youth and I understand it is a shock to them since they don't normally think of such.

[me b zola]

48. I think this is an attempt to divide urban from rural

I think that this was the entire strategy of the wicked Wasillan. Rural people slaughter animals, live the reality of putting food on the table. I think that stupid sarah is attempting to get a rise out of urban folks--to divide us--by filming this piece of crap propaganda.

[Marr]

53. What was so terrible about it?

I have no idea what you saw, but I cut the heads off plenty of birds when I was younger-- before I moved away to the city to go to college. My family raised chickens for eggs and usually a turkey or duck. When the chickens stopped laying eggs, we'd eat them.

It wasn't unnecessarily cruel-- I always took great care to be sure the head was cleanly severed on the first strike.

Had a chicken body get away from me once after taking it's head off. They spasm, as I'm sure you know, and if they aren't restrained in some way they'll hop and run around. Anyway, it ran straight over to the sheets hanging on the clothesline, and jumped all over the place. Got blood all over the fresh white linen. Boy, was my mom ever angry with me.

[Greyhound]

55. Do you actually know any people?

We are barbaric, accept it. We turn a blind eye to the slaughter of millions of everything, every day. Something like 80% of Amerikans follow some fantasy of a vengeful, omnipotent, blood-soaked destroyer of entire cultures. What difference do the lives of a few million birds, cows, sheep, or pigs make?

[XemaSab]

58. I went by a turkey shed last year

They were throwing dead turkeys in the dumpster.

Not turkeys for eating, but turkeys that had died waiting for slaughter. :puke:

[MrSlayer]

59. You have to kill them to eat them.

Pretty simple really.

[CRF450]

60. Alot of ya'll sure have weak stomachs

I use to help a friend's uncle cut the heads off of some chickens. They'd skin the feathers off, cut em up, and put them away in the freezer waiting to be cooked some day.

Sorry, its a necessary evil in order to eat.

[superduperfarleft]

64. A "necessary" evil?

Not for me, I don't know about you guys. :shrug:

I eat just fine without killing animals.

[KayLaw]

70. Same here.

There's plenty of food that doesn't involve that sort of thing.

[Marr]

84. Just out of curiosity, is your objection to factory farming or killing in general?

If it's the former, I'll agree with you. From what I've seen, those places seem designed only to maximize profit and take no consideration of the animal's well being. That isn't right and I wouldn't defend it.

If your objection is simply to killing animals for food, then I really don't understand.

Some will easily acknowledge the fact that we're all animals when discussing evolution, biology, religion, etc. But when the subject of meat comes up, that line is reversed and people are supposed to act completely differently from the rest of the animal kingdom because we're somehow elevated above them.

I'm all for treating animals with compassion and I would never try to cause unnecessary harm or emotional distress. I respect animals. But I feel completely justified in killing and eating them when I'm hungry.

Actually... "justified" is overstating it. It's like saying you feel justified in drawing breath. It's just a natural part of being.

[superduperfarleft]

87. My objection is to killing them for food, not the method in which we kill them.

(By the way, thank you for keeping this respectful. I will definitely try to do the same. It's a pretty rare occurrence on DU for a veg and a non-veg to have a civil conversation, and I'd love to see more of this)

"Some will easily acknowledge the fact that we're all animals when discussing evolution, biology, religion, etc. But when the subject of meat comes up, that line is reversed and people are supposed to act completely differently from the rest of the animal kingdom because we're somehow elevated above them."

Biologically, we are most definitely animals. But they are numerous things that are considered "natural" for animals to do which we don't do. I don't urinate around my house to mark it as mine, and I don't fight someone just because the knock on my door. I don't attempt to reproduce without a care. Some animals even commit acts of rape, which of course we'd never allow humans to do. So therefore, admitting that we are biologically the same as animals on a basic level doesn't mean that we are therefore morally permitted to do every single thing that a wild animal would do. And this psuedo-commitment to a "natural state of being" would also preclude us from having air conditioning, cars, airplanes, electricity, life-saving medicine, etc.

"I'm all for treating animals with compassion and I would never try to cause unnecessary harm or emotional distress."

I would argue that killing animals for food is unnecessary, and that by denying that an animal has an interest in continuing to live in order to fulfill our own selfish wants, whether economic or otherwise, we are always causing suffering that is, as I said above, unnecessary. Nevermind the fact that we use them for rodeos, circuses, experiments, clothing, etc. in addition to using them for food.

And saying that you respect animals but that you feel justified in killing them for what I'd say is an unnecessary source of food is like saying that you respect black people but it is okay to use them for slaves, as long as it's done "humanely." Anyone who claims to be committed to animal rights (not saying that you are, you'd probably fall more into the animal welfare spectrum) cannot then turn around and exploit animals for reasons that are completely unnecessary. We either respect them as sentient beings that have their own interests in not suffering and continuing to live, or we completely exclude them as members of the moral community. Anything else leads you to the moral schizophrenia we have today where animals are still nothing more than property, but we treat some as pets and some as food.

I want to mention again that I really do appreciate you asking a sincere question, and that I am not attacking you or judging you in any way. Just explaining my viewpoint on it.

[Marr]

88. Thanks! I appreciate your thoughtful response.

The immediate difference I see between the acts you listed (urinating around the yard, fighting people who approach your house, etc.) and the act of killing and eating an animal is that the former would be very anti-social behavior. We're social primates first and foremost and our morality is mostly about promoting harmony within the tribe, so I'd actually see those items as expressions of our basic nature rather than our removal from it.

As to what's necessary and what isn't... that's all very relative. "Necessary" in what sense? Is bare survival the only necessity, or does it include feeling sated and happy?

Just to use my own experience as an example, I grew up in a very poor family. Our staples were cheese, potatoes, and milk when we could afford it. We kept chickens and let them graze on what land we had, and we collected the eggs each day. When a chicken got too old to lay eggs, we'd eat it. We made the most of what little we had. It probably wasn't strictly necessary to eat the chicken, but was it immoral?

Now, this may seem far removed from casually picking up a bucket of KFC on the way home, but the two are morally indistinguishable, in my view.

On respecting animals, maybe we just have different ideas on what that means. I occasionally went hunting and fishing with my dad when I was young, and he used to go on quite a bit about how the land was sacred and everything in it was sacred and we belonged in it. Not lording over it, but in it. He meant we were as justified in getting food as was a bear or a bird. He disliked killing things anyway and always got it over with as quickly and cleanly as possible. That, to me, seemed like respecting animals and the environment.

[Luminous Animal]

62. It's as if nobody here has ever eaten meat!

I am imagining conversations around the Thanksgiving table next Thursday, "OMG!!!! Did you see the Palin turkey video? I was horrified! Who would do that to an animal! Pass me a drumstick, please."

This is how animals are slaughtered. It is a terrible and messy business involving fear and pain on the part of the animal and blood and guts on the part of the human.

[fudge stripe cookays]

63. Read Barbara Kingsolver's "Animal Vegetable Mineral"

for more information on our current "turkey buying" culture.

Did you know that the turkeys we buy at the grocery store have now been bred with their breasts so big that they cannot mate in the normal way anymore? In fact, they've forgotten how, since it is essentially being bred out of them.

There is actually someone-- a "turkey sperm wrangler" who must artificially inseminate the turkeys so we get more turkeys come holiday season. VERY eye-opening book. I highly recommend it. She and her husband decide to buy their own turkeys and raise them, and she had to search far and wide for sources of information (quite old, in fact) on "setting the mood" so the turkeys could get busy making little turkeys.

The part where the turkey comes on to her husband is hilarious.

[burythehatchet]

75. "breasts so big they cannot mate", trying...not...to...lol

[adamuu]

79. From what i saw they were killed pretty swiftly.

How do you propose the turkeys be killed?

[The2ndWheel]

80. It's good to see the machine do its thing

All we usually see is the pretty finish and paint job. As cogs, our function is to simply do our job and allow the machine to work. We don't get to see its process of production, how it grinds life into mass produced resources for our rapacious consumption.

"How can we condone this barbarism?"

Because without it, the machine doesn't work. Like I said, our function is not to condone it, it is to make sure it happens. If the machine doesn't work, we have a very different reality.

"Why do we treat animals this way?"

Why do we treat trees this way? Why do we treat plants this way? Why do we treat land this way? Why do we treat water this way? Because the machine doesn't work if we don't.

[adamuu]

81. Maybe a little visibility will result in less wasted food

maybe think twice before ordering or cooking more than you can eat
or tossing the leftovers instead of saving every bite.

[The2ndWheel]

83. Like anything, if it's cheap, it's much easier to waste it

That goes for food, gas, a pencil, a staple, a paper towel, etc, even people. I'm as guilty of it as anyone.

Take the chicken. Nobody has to hunt the chicken. It's been domesticated, bred to a narrow range of specific guidelines for maximum human profit, and who knows how many are packaged and sent to stores around the country, if not the world. The chicken has no life of its own. The chicken doesn't even have a fighting chance, we've eliminated evolution from the chicken(and pigs, cows, etc). We don't earn the chicken. We earn the money to pay for the chicken by making sure the machine does the work for us.

That's why we're such a wasteful society. We don't see how it works, and its products are cheap. With nobody having any time to do anything, since keeping the machine running isn't cheap, it just isn't a surprise how much we waste.

Again, I do it as much as anyone. It doesn't even cross your mind most of the time. So yes, the visibility does help. Of course nobody wants to see it if they don't have to. Which is the genius of the machine. You don't have to see it for it to function. You just have to do your job.

[adamuu]

85. very insightful. abstraction hides the true cost. n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

82. What this thread has shown me....like I didnt know it anyway....

is that there are a lot of heartless motherfucking people even here. Flame away. Frankly my dears, I don't give a damn.

[deaniac21]

86. If you are gonna grill it, you have to kill it.