WTF is going on here?? Can anyone tell me? re: Big3 is ALREADY making highly fuel efficient cars ..

[99th_Monkey]

.. but these cars are ONLY being marketed and sold OFF-SHORE ... to EUROPEAN consumers and other foreign markets. :wtf:

It would seem that ANY bailout of Big3 needs to be conditioned on requiring that these cars be made available to US
consumers on a "US Consumers FIRST!!" basis instead of force-feeding gas-hogs US auto consumers. But no one seems to
be even AWARE of this, much less calling attention to this glaring anomaly and insisting on a "US CONSUMERS FIRST"
requirement to become part of any bail out proposal. :wtf:

Why aren't Obama and/or Democrats in Congress speaking up about this?

*******************************************************************************

The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have
Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.
By David Kiley - Business Week

If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

35 MPG: Why Wait Until 2020?
Chrysler is uniquely positioned among the Big Three US automakers. Unlike Ford and General Motors, Chrysler is already building a slew of high-MPG diesel-powered vehicles right here in the United States.

Amazing as it may seem in these difficult times, Chrysler is not allowed to sell those cars domestically, due to recently tightened emissions regulations. With the exception of the domestically-available Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel, all of Chrysler’s North American manufactured high-MPG diesel-equipped vehicles are being shipped abroad.

Each and every one of Chrysler’s European models is available with a diesel engine, with the exception of the Dodge Viper. In fact, a diesel engine can be found under the hood of more than 50% of the vehicles that Chrysler sells in Europe.

All-in-all, a dozen Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep diesel-engined models are currently available outside of the United States, but are not sold domestically.

Here’s the eye-opener … half of those models currently achieve 35 miles per gallon combined.

http://www.mpgomatic.com/2008/03/15/35-mpg-why-wait-until-2020

Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell and Saab 9-3 BioPower Receive Top Honors at Michelin Challenge Bibendum 2007
The zero-gas, zero-emissions Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell electric vehicle is a fully functional crossover car that is powered by GM’s fourth-generation fuel cell propulsion system. It has a U.S. Environmental Protection Administration (EPA)-estimated range of 320 km (200 miles) per fill-up.

The Saab 9-3 BioPower flex-fuel vehicle runs on E85 fuel (85 percent bioethanol/15 percent gasoline). Bioethanol can be produced from a wide range of agricultural crops and biomass, including sugar cane in Brazil and corn in the United States. Unlike gasoline, its consumption does not raise atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide (CO2), the main greenhouse gas that contributes to climate change.

“These products showcase GM’s leadership position in the development of advanced vehicle technologies to reduce dependency on petroleum and boost vehicle fuel efficiency,” said GM China Group President and Managing Director Kevin Wale. “Their appearance in China demonstrates their potential for helping resolve challenges involving rising emissions and energy security in the world’s second-largest vehicle market.”

This is the fourth year that GM has participated in the Challenge Bibendum, an international forum where automakers, policymakers, media and other stakeholders discuss the future of sustainable transportation and demonstrate current and future vehicle technologies.

In addition to the Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell electric vehicle and Saab 9-3 BioPower flex-fuel vehicle, GM displayed the Opel Corsa 1.3 CDTI ecoFLEX, Opel Zafira 1.6 CNG, Chevrolet Tahoe 2-Mode Hybrid and Saturn Aura Green Line hybrid at this year’s Challenge Bibendum. GM also hosted a ride and drive for attendees and led panel discussions on key transportation and energy issues facing the world today.

http://www.gmeurope.info/social_media_newsroom/archives/283-Chevrolet-Equinox-Fuel-Cell-and-Saab-9-3-BioPower-Receive-Top-Honors-at-Michelin-Challenge-Bibendum-2007.html

[Idealism]

1. Americans have a problem with Diesel

Some think its 'un-clean' or some nonsense. Every time I go to other countries I see turbo diesels' everywhere and wonder why can't we do this back home, but the truth is diesel gets a bad rap back in the states :(

Not the automakers fault, its public opinion.

[99th_Monkey]

6. That's just pre-Nov. 4th thinking.

yes, that's historically been true, but that shouldn't stop forward thinking policy makers from talking about this
to help educate the public and help create the changes we need in our thinking. Besides some of these are either
hybrid or mostly electric (fuel cell) driven.

[robinlynne]

2. ooh. that last article says it is too expensive for the US, BECAUSE THE ENGINES ARE MADE IN BRITAIN

.....

[99th_Monkey]

7. True, but my point is that Big3 already have the capacity to mfg. these cars..

.. there's no reason US plants can't retool to those specifications, and be required to as part of bailout.

[Romulox]

10. Yes there is. US crash and emission standards are much higher. nt

[99th_Monkey]

16. But these are gov't policies that can be changed as needed, are they not? ~nt~

[DemoRabbit]

41. And new CLEAN DIESEL cars can pass the standards... the new diesel VW does.

[99th_Monkey]

47. Yes. and what "gaps" exist can/should be closed by creative policy making in DC asap. ~nt~

[robinlynne]

25. of course. I agree. just saying, teh REASON they say it is expensive is that the dollar is low.

In other words, make it here and it will cost less...

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. The prices they give are strange

it's possible that relative prices have changed since the date of the article (4th Sept), due to the yen/dollar/pound(/euro?) exchange rates, but the manufacturer's recommended prices in Britain at the moment seem to be about, including 17.5% Value Added Tax (from the same site for both):

Ford Fiesta ECOnetic 5dr: £12,890
Toyota Prius: £18,185

The article claims:
"At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000."

So the claim it would cost more than a Prius is strange (it has to be said, the Fiesta is distinctly smaller than the Prius - calling it a 5 seater is a bit of a stretch. 5 adults would be very uncomfortable in it). It costs 70% of the Prius, in the UK.

Now, at the moment, the exchange rate is £1 = $1.49; when the article was written it was about $1.82. So even at the old rate, it would have sold for $19,965, before tax; currently, it would be $16,345.

But I think their claim that the Fiesta would have to be sold for more than the Prius is crap, when it comes down to it.

[kick-ass-bob]

3. Our aversion to diesel.

Americans think diesel is old and dirty, and there are limited places to fill up.

Plus, right now, it is $1 more per gallon. I think consumers are a big reason why these cars aren't sold here.

[99th_Monkey]

11. Yes, but we are at a moment in history where whatever happens, we're going to need to rethink

lots of things about cars, fuel, etc. and change our thinking where it's appropriate.

Isn't this just a matter of public education? ... coupled with policies aimed at bridging the
"cost gap" between gas & diesel.

[Idealism]

15. What makes you so optimistic about educating the public?

Most people are ignorant and lost in conventional wisdom that is often wrong

[99th_Monkey]

17. The Big3 Bail-out issue is forcing the issue anyway. Most EVERYone's already thinking about it,

now that it seems their hard-earned tax dollars are going to be bailing out the Auto Barons.

This is EXACTLY the time to be doing this public education, when they're really paying attention.

[Idealism]

19. Go take over Fox then

Five years after the Iraq War started, 51% of registered Republicans believe Saddam had ties to 9/11.

[99th_Monkey]

22. LOL - not a bad idea. I'll put it on my "TO DO" list ~nt~

[Idealism]

29. Takeover of Fox= Public Re-Education and Anti-Ignorance Initiative

[99th_Monkey]

35. You bring the torches, I'll bring the pitchforks. Deal? ~nt~

[Andy823]

39. Actually diesel is only

Around 80 cents more per gallon where I live, and the diesel sold now is lower sulphur diesel. I have a 3/4 ton 4X4 Chevy Duramax diesel pickup that gets 19-20 MPG on the highway, far more than a comparable gas pickup. I also have more power for heave duty work like hauling and towing. My former pickup had a 460 gas engine in it and I was lucky to get 12 MPG on the highway. It was a great work truck, but the diesel has a better MPG and a heck of a lot more power. It will save me a lot of money this winter when I am plowing snow.

[Mnemosyne]

49. My dad bought a diesel Ford truck in 2000, due to diesel being so much cheaper

than gasoline then.

He has to be rolling in his grave at the price of diesel since 2005.

We're still at $2.20 for reg. gas here in NW PA.

[bklyncowgirl]

52. I bought a 1992 F250 Diesel in 2004 to tow my horse trailer.

For a heavy truck it was the way to go. The truck got about 15-20 MPG compared to around 10 for a comparitvely sized gasoline vehicle.

Just about that time Diesel began to skyrocket. Lucky me.

[Mnemosyne]

53. My sympathies, it stinks. Seems it doesn't matter what we do trying

to survive, they nail us one way or another. :hi:

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. Most of those are diesel powered cars

As I understand it, there are laws limiting the number of diesel engines on the road, due to the emissions of petroleum based diesel. Now that biodiesel has become viable, and it burns much cleaner, those laws need to be updated.

And the source of biofuels is also an issue. The FrankenCorn agro-giants like Monsanto and ADM are trying to control the market, hoping they can be the next Exxon Mobil, but the fact is that corn is worse as a fuel source than it is as a sugar source (high fructose corn poison). Very inefficient process. They need to be taken out of the loop and biofuels need to come from things like hemp, or even the switchgrass that Chimpy talked about in a speech once.

[99th_Monkey]

21. "those laws need to be updated" ... YES ... thank you .. that's exactly my point

This should be a cornerstone of any bailout agreement, to leverage the changes we need.

We may never have this opportunity again for decades, because now it's all in flux and the Big3
want tax dollars to bail them out; but once the dust settles very few will be paying attention
again.

[Turborama]

27. Algae and Jatropha are THE next generation biofuels. Here's loads of info. about this...

Lot's of info here and more to be added soon...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4509092&mesg_id=4510016

[freestyle]

31. Actually VW and Mercedes sell diesels that meet emissions standards nationwide.

The technology is not terribly exotic, and U.S. manufacturers could license it or engineer it. Ultra low sulfur diesel fuel is also required in the U.S. The combination of improved fuel and technologies to eliminate particulate emissions negate environmental arguments against diesel. The barriers to widespread use of diesel vehicles are not legal, but in the misperceptions of consumers, the lack of vision of auto executives, and the greed of oil companies.

[mopinko]

42. you can't get them. i tried to buy a diesel jeep. could not be found.

the jeep liberty is theoretically available here, but in the whole metro chicago area there was exactly one for sale. ok, this was according to a car salesman, but.....
this was about 18 months ago, before gas was worth more than gold. but....

[freestyle]

43. True. I ordered my '03 diesel Jetta Wagon. Ordering is an option.

You are quite correct that you might not be able to find a diesel to drive off the lot. But that was a horrible dealer if he didn't offer to order one for you.

[mopinko]

51. it was a salesman that knew he was not going to win.

i was not that hot to buy the car that minute. but they didn't try very hard.

[Turborama]

54. Something else even more pernicious that needs to be taken out of the loop...

Palm oil monocrop plantations - the main reason they are destroying the rainforests in Borneo and hastening the extinction of the orang-utan.

Add to you list of 'next generation' biofuels jatropah and algae oil.


I sure hope they update those laws soon...

[breadandwine]

5. The auto industry only moves green kicking and screaming.

They have to be forced. They may be desperate to do this overseas but not here. So they don't and they won't. I remember that a few years ago they came out with an alternative energy vehicle (electric I think) and the big announcement was that "We have this car IF ANYBODY REALLY WANTS IT." That's nearly verbatim. They actually used language like that. Like, we're paying lip service but we're really not gonna push this and do it. So they showed the car, they actually built the prototype, but no way were they gonna mass produce it for the American market. It was only public relations. They won't sell green cars in the US and it doesn't look like they're gonna be forced into it. The car and oil companies have interlocking directorates.

[Romulox]

9. So misinformed...nt

[Romulox]

8. The European cars won't pass US crash or emissions standars.

[jakefrep]

14. Is the crash test part necessarily true?

The European brands usually fare quite well on our crash tests.

[99th_Monkey]

26. Ugly irony: the reason US crash standards are higher is to protect us from SUV armored gashogs. nt

[leftstreet]

12. Americans are meant to be oil consumers n/t

[jakefrep]

13. Our government has been a bigger impediment to the availability of these cars...

...than any big 3 management hack. If our car regs were more in line with those in Europe, it would be a lot easier to get these cars into our marketplace.

[99th_Monkey]

23. EXACTLY! And now that WE ARE the Gov't (see Obama Jan. 20, '09>>), why the fuck not?

[rucky]

18. They are in collusion with big oil to fleece the American consumer. n/t

[peanut2010]

20. If we would relax polution standards just a little bit Ford might bring them here

We are just to strict here.A modern turbocharged direct injection diesel is plenty clean even without all that exhaust treatment.a diesel`s by far more efficient than gas will ever be.Ford builds a car that gets 65 M.P.G.on the highway the European Focus gets 59 on the highway a Toyota Prius don`t even come close to that is a lot more expensive new and I wouldn`t even want to think about what new bateries will cost in about 5 years probally more that the thing will be worth.

[99th_Monkey]

24. Yes, exactly. Higher fuel-efficiency can/should off-set emissions issues ...

... because if I drive an average of say 10 miles a day, with a car that gets 70 mpg.,
my net emissions are actually going to be less than if I drive those same 10 miles in
a car that gets 15-20 mpg.

[gollygee]

28. That's frustrating

My dad, who is in his 70s, bought a Prius. He did not want to buy a Toyota. He'd never owned a foreign car in his life, and viewed people who bought them with disdain when I was a kid. But he wanted a car that got the mileage of a Prius and didn't understand why no US company offered it. So a Prius he got. I am 100% sure if a US automaker had a car that got mileage like the Prius, my dad and a lot of others would buy it.

[99th_Monkey]

34. You make an excellent point with the anticdote .. there IS a HUGE market for high mpg cars in US

see consumers flocking to buy the toyotas, hondas, etc. only WISHING they could buy a US-built
car that was competitively fuel-efficient.

[Turborama]

30. 1 rec? Just gave the 2nd...

This is an extremely important debate and should get up there on the greatest page with the other ones about this topic...

[99th_Monkey]

32. Thanks for the Rec.

I already rec'd yours (the one you sent me) early on, but didn't make a comment at the time, cuz there
was nothing that jumped out at me to comment about, but I'm going back now to join that discussion too.

:hi:

[The Traveler]

33. Have another rec

Important to know this stuff.

Trav

[99th_Monkey]

37. Thanks much. nt

[bullwinkle428]

36. Consequences of some HORRIBLE experiences with GM-manufactured

diesels, made some 3 decades ago -

"In the face of the 1970's 'gas crisis', GM turned to Diesel power for economic benefit, directing the Oldsmobile division to develop a V6 and two V8 engines, to be shared with all divisions.

These Diesel engines were designed to fit into the engine bays of gasoline powered automobiles, but despite popular belief, they were not "converted" gasoline engines. Oldsmobile's diesel engines, the 5.7 L LF9 and 4.3 L LF7 V8s and 4.3 L LT6/LT7/LS2 V6, were notoriously unreliable, particularly in the earliest versions, though reliability had improved by the early 1980s with the advent of the DX block, along with better fuel filtering and water separators. By the early 80s,the 5.7L diesel was a fairly reliable engine with the introduction of the rollerized camshaft/roller lifter combination and had many improved enhancements that the late 70's 5.7L diesel engines did not have. Many of the reliability issues these engines developed were a combination of faults not just related to design. Many of these engines suffered major malfunctions from poor quality fuel, mechanics not properly trained in diesel repair, and even improper owner service and maintenance. Although over one million were sold between 1978 and 1985, the failure rate of GM's engines ruined the reputation of Diesel engines not just built by GM, but overall in the United States market. Eventually, a class action lawsuit resulted in an arbitration system under the supervision of the Federal Trade Commission where consumers could claim 80% of the original cost of the engine in the event of a failure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_engines

[99th_Monkey]

38. Yes, that's certainly part of the problem. Diesel has been marginalized in US, but ..

.. this is a teachable moment for US auto consumers .. cuz everyone's paying attention for a change, due to all
the hoopla about the Big3 bailout ... and the diesel technology has advanced light-years since the 70s.

[Turborama]

50. Agreed, a paradigm shift in the making. N/T

:kick:

[riqster]

40. Fuel hass been god-awful expensive overseas for years and years

...so the auto companies HAD to make gas-sippers over there.

[99th_Monkey]

44. And now Big3 wants a bail out? ... bailout = LEVERAGE = now they HAVE to here too IMHO ~nt

[riqster]

45. Hey, as long as they take care of their workers, I'm OK with a bailout

They HAVE to make fuel-efficient vehicles now.

[99th_Monkey]

46. Agreed. Happy workers + making highly fuel-efficient autos = win/win for a brighter future.