What do you feel when you see this image.?

[peruban]

On June 11, 1963, Thich Quang Duc, a Buddhist monk from the Linh-Mu Pagoda in Hue, Vietnam, burned himself to death at a busy intersection in downtown Saigon, Vietnam to protest involvement of U.S. operations in Vietnam.

Can you imagine believing in something so strongly that you would set yourself on fire in protest? I'm not sure if Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or other practitioners of nonviolence would consider that anything less than dedication and raw courage. He was not afraid to die and used his own life as a protest. That's commitment.

So, given modern protesting's colorful poster boards and signs even come close to the bravery of this monk.



What's your opinion?

[dysfunctional press]

1. there's nothing 'brave' about self-immolation.

suicide is a quitter's way out.

personally, i see one dumb fucking monk.

just my opinion.

[peruban]

2. But it wasn't suicide for the sake of suicide.

It was symbolic of the turmoil that was occurring in Vietnam at the time. Suicide will typically involve depression, mental instability, and hatred of one's self. This was not the case here.

And burning himself alive means he didn't quit, he was willing to die so that others could understand the suffering all around them. Quitting would involve not taking action against an ominous evil and submitting to its will.

[dysfunctional press]

20. it accomplished absolutely NOTHING.

he threw his life away in 1963, rather than live to protest and fight the war that went on for another decade after he was gone.

[JI7]

36. i think those images helped get the United States to oppose the war

[dysfunctional press]

39. seeing as it happened in 1963...i doubt it.

nt

[Joe Fields]

41. You couldn't be more wrong.

That image had a profound effect on untold thousands of people the world over, including me.

[dysfunctional press]

43. it didn't do anything to end the war.

seeing as he did it 1963.
the war escalated many times after he went post-toastie.

[POAS]

7. Personally, I see one dumb post!

just my opinion.

[dysfunctional press]

21. why's that?

what do you feel that his 1963 suicide accomplished? :shrug:

[POAS]

24. Were you around to see the influence

of images from Viet Nam, including the images of the many Manks that sacrificed their lives to a cause?

What would you care deeply enough about to sacrifice your life?

[dysfunctional press]

29. this particular monk took his life in 1963- what did his death accomplish? Absolutely nothing.

and yes, i grew up during the vietnam era.

the only thing that i can think of that i would probably sacrifice my life for would be my wife.

[POAS]

33. Well I take your answer to mean that

you were young during this era, I was already an adult and involved enough to know that those monks kept it up, year after year. Each monk sacrificing and adding to the awareness of the injustices going on.

His sacrifice was not about giving up, it was a personal commitment to a cause, the ultimate commitment.

Your original post, which I still say is stupid and also naive, stated that this act was not brave and that suicide is the quitters way out. This monk didn't quit, he bravely sacrificed the only thing he actually owned and had the right to give up, his life.

For you that sacrifice would be made for your wife, for that monk his belief was as important to him as your wife is to you. I would not consider your sacrifice for your wife, in whatever form that took, to be lacking in bravery or quitting.

I wonder what it is that would cause you to be so judgmental about another's sacrifice, especially since you admit that something exists that would cause you to sacrifice yours.

[dysfunctional press]

35. burning monks didn't end the war.

people who take their lives uselessly in the name of a cause, probably didn't deserve the life that was given to them in the first place...so perhaps their deaths at least helped balance things out on some cosmic level. :shrug:

btw- what did the burning buddhist monk say to the hot dog vendor?..."make me one with everything."

[POAS]

38. I see your totally lacking

in empathy so I'll let you have the last say in this fruitless endeavor.

Buh Bye

[dysfunctional press]

40. and i see that you're lacking in basic grammar skills...

but i have plenty of empathy for those who deserve it.

[spoony]

46. It "is widely seen as the turning point of the Vietnamese Buddhist crisis...

which led to the change in regime."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c

..."The historian Seth Jacobs asserted that Thích Quảng Đức had "reduced America's Diệm experiment to ashes as well" and that "no amount of pleading could retrieve Diem's reputation" once Browne's images were ingrained into the psyche of the world public."

Apparently some disagree.

[NNadir]

3. These images startled America. The Brazilian Francisco Anselmo de Barros did this

to protest ethanol sugar plantations in the Pantanal, but rather than gasoline, he doused himself with ethanol.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/16/105448/03

One can't applaud these things, but in the case of the Vietnamese monks, it caused the decline in popularity in what was then a popular war.

[Historic NY]

4. They only get to do it once & its painfull to fail. I remember them on the

nightly news.

[meowomon]

5. I feel sad

It is a sad cop out for him that he didn't want to do the heavy work. Dying is easy. Living this life is hard.

[zeemike]

6. I remember those days, and the effect it had.

On us it was just horror, but to the Viet Names it had a much deeper meaning.
to them it showed the ultimate resistance to the war and how one could bravely die for the cause and the control over ones pain and surrering...the monk sat motionless while the flames consumed him,,,something that would be hard to do for most people.
It had a greater impact on the Asian culture than we could understand,

[Judi Lynn]

8. Always disappointing to see insufficient responses from shallow people.

These monks put a greater priority on ending the savagery than upon their own selfish, self-sustaining interests.

Clearly they realized more was needed than a life lived "speaking out" verbally, or starting petitions, etc. Making an image intense enough to draw large-scale attention to this hideous situation was a powerful statement.

Sneering at these men, ridiculing them only reveals the nature of the writer as superficial, closed, indifferent, self-centered, incapable of depth, unable to respect others different from oneself, or others seeking a better world which won't accept cruelty to others as unavoidable.

[BanzaiBonnie]

9. Thank you Judi

This was not suicide. This was the ultimate protest.

When you are willing to die for what you believe what more can be said. And it did move others into change. This is no less and I would say a far better response than picking up a rifle to "fight" for a cause that is greater than oneself.

[derby378]

11. That poor monk immolated himself in 1963

The war in Vietnam dragged on for another 12 years until Saigon fell to the Viet Cong.

What did that monk's protest change? Not a God-damned thing. Not where change was really needed.

I'm reminded of that Patton speech where he said "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." We may mourn the monk's sacrifice, but it did nothing to stop either the Viet Cong or the Americans.

[JI7]

42. based on post # 30 he did it to protest Diem's persecution of Buddhists

[malaise]

14. Well said

It was a powerful statement.

[POAS]

47. Thanks for making the point Judi

I tried with one of the "sneerers" elsewhere in this thread but in the end I got my bad grammar served to me as insult. I should have known better than try to reason or make a point.

Anyway, you expressed my feelings exactly and the Monk's that took their own lives in Viet Nam did awaken the world and helped galvanize world opinion.

[Blue Velvet]

10. I remember exactly where I was when I first saw this picture:

I was sitting in the second row of my "Nonviolence and the Ethics of Social Action" class (a course that had more effect on me than any other curriculum in my education). As someone who can be a bit squeamish, this image initially horrified me to the core, and has haunted me for many moons since. But as I learned about the message behind the image and the impact that message had, I also began to stand in awe of the great sacrifice of those who chose self-immolation as their ultimate protest. The contrast between the stillness and calm of the monks and the out of control violence of the fire is also quite compelling and intentionally symbolic.

[Edweird]

12. It's the ultimate guilt trip. Pointless and ineffective. It's also an admission of failure.

Sorry. I just don't see the 'heroics' of suicide as a form of protest.


It also reminds me of South Park 'Chef goes nanners'.

Chef: In the 1960's there was a monk (shows a photo of a man in flames) who set himself on fire to protest! You have left me no choice!
(lowers the photo)
To protest your lack of humanity, I will now do the same thing!
(raises a portable gas tank and a lighter, then pours the gasoline on a Japanese monk and sets him on fire)
Monk: (in flames) Huh! Haaaaaaaaaaaah! (dies)

[cobalt1999]

13. Regardless of how some will try to elevate this to something noble.

It's just a guy throwing away his life while accomplishing nothing towards his personal goal.

I bet the US wished that all the Vietcong had followed his lead and done the same thing. It would have saved thousands of US lives.

[Orsino]

17. And yet we still remember this photograph, don't we?

No, he didn't end the war single-handedly...but he helped, and his example can still inspire us to end other wars, whether by this or some other means.

He'll be remembered, long after those who wrote him off as a mere coward.

[cobalt1999]

19. Just because we remember an action doesn't mean it was effective.

He did this in 1963! If he helped, then why did the war ramp up continuously after that? He didn't help stop or delay US intervention one iota.

I won't call him a coward, but the facts show he was misguided in thinking his suicide would have any impact on the situation.

He died accomplishing absolutely nothing towards his goal, and whether we remember it or not is irrelevant.

[Orsino]

23. This was only one of many powerful photos of the era...

...and pictures played a part in turning us away from prosecuting that war. I don't know how anyone can claim that this one had zero effect. :shrug:

A lot of civil-rights protesters died on the way toward equality, too. If you're going to to claim that any of those deaths had no effect, you'd at least have to start with the ones no one remembers.

The deaths we know about, and can keep close to our hearts--especially with powerful images--all help to keep the greater tragedies from happening again.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Apparently some people labor still with the illusion the VietNamese were wrong.

Someone needs to spend some time trying to grasp what the elements were of that situation.

'A Call to Resist Illegitimate Authority'
Addressing global militarism & world empire | War and Civil Liberties
In 1967, Marcus Raskin and Arthur Waskow of the Institute for Policy Studies wrote and arranged for publication of "A Call to Resist Illegitimate Authority." It offered and urged support of young men who chose to refuse to participate in the "unconstitutional and illegal" war in Vietnam. It was widely circulated and signed by thousands of people.

Five antiwar activists who disseminated the document-- Raskin, Dr. Benjamin Spock, Yale University chaplain William Sloane Coffin, author Mitchell Goodman, and Harvard graduate student Michael Ferber--were charged with conspiring to "counsel, aid and abet" resistance to the draft. (All but Raskin were found guilty. The others had their convictions reversed on appeal, on the grounds that the judge had committed a number of prejudicial errors.)

Following is the text of that document:

'A Call to Resist Illegitimate Authority'

To the young men of America, to the whole of the American people, and to all men of goodwill everywhere:

1. An ever growing number of young American men are finding that the American war in Vietnam so outrages their deepest moral and religious sense that they cannot contribute to it in any way. We share their moral outrage.

2. We further believe that the war is unconstitutional and illegal. Congress has not declared a war as required by the Constitution. Moreover, under the Constitution, treaties signed by the President and ratified by the Senate have the same force as the Constitution itself. The Charter of the United Nations is such a treaty.

The Charter specifically obligates the United States to refrain from force or the threat of force in international relations. It requires member states to exhaust every peaceful mean s of settling disputes and to submit disputes which cannot be settled peacefully to the Security Council. The United States has systematically violated all of these Charter provisions for thirteen years.

3. Moreover, this war violates international agreements, treaties and principles of law which the United States Government has solemnly endorsed.

The combat role of the United States troops in Vietnam violates the Geneva Accords of 1954 which our government pledged to support but has since subverted. The destruction of rice, crops and livestock; the burning and bulldozing of entire villages consisting exclusively of civilian structures; the interning of civilian non-combatants in concentration camps; the summary executions of civilians in captured villages who could not produce satisfactory evidence of their loyalties or did not wish to be removed to concentration camps; the slaughter of peasants who dared to stand up in their fields and shake their fists at American helicopters; --these are all actions of the kind which the United States and the other victorious powers of World War II declared to be crimes against humanity for which individuals were to be held personally responsible even when acting under the orders of their governments and for which Germans were sentenced at Nuremberg to long prison terms and death.

The prohibition of such acts as war crimes was incorporated in treaty law by the Geneva Conventions of 1949, ratified by the United States. These are commitments to other countries and to Mankind, and they would claim our allegiance even if Congress should declare war.

4. We also believe it is an unconstitutional denial of religious liberty and equal protection of the laws to withhold draft exemption from men whose religious or profound philosophical beliefs are opposed to what in the Western religious tradition have been long known as unjust wars.

5. Therefore, we believe on all these grounds that every free man has a legal right and a moral duty to exert every effort to end this war, to avoid collusion with it, and to encourage others to do the same.

Young men in the armed forces or threatened with the draft face the most excruciating choices. For them various forms of resistance risk separation from their families and their country, destruction of their careers, loss of their freedom and loss of their lives. Each must choose the course of resistance dictated by his conscience and circumstances.

Among those already in the armed forces some are refusing to obey specific illegal and immoral orders, some are attempting to educate their fellow servicemen on the murderous and barbarous nature of the war, some are absenting themselves without official leave.

Among those not in the armed forces some are applying for status as conscientious objectors to American aggression in Vietnam, some are refusing to be inducted.

Among both groups some are resisting openly and paying a heavy penalty, some are organizing more resistance within the United States and some have sought sanctuary in other countries.

6. We believe that each of these forms of resistance against illegitimate authority is courageous and justified. Many of us believe that open resistance to the war and the draft is the course of action most likely to strengthen the moral resolve with which all of us can oppose the war and most likely to bring an end to the war.

7. We will continue to lend our support to those who undertake resistance to this war. We will raise funds to organize draft resistance unions, to supply legal defense and bail, to support families and otherwise aid resistance to the war in whatever ways may seem appropriate.

8. We firmly believe that our statement is the sort of speech that under the First Amendment must be free, and that the actions we will undertake are as legal as is the war resistance of the young men themselves. But we recognize that the courts may find otherwise, and that if so we might all be liable to prosecution and severe punishment.

In any case, we feel that we cannot shrink from fulfilling our responsibilities to the youth whom many of us teach, to the country whose freedom we cherish, and to the ancient traditions of religion and philosophy which we strive to preserve in this generation.

9. We call upon all men of good will to join us in this confrontation with immoral authority. Especially we call upon the universities to fulfill their mission of enlightenment and religious organizations to honor their heritage of brotherhood. Now is the time to resist.

http://www.shalomctr.org/node/1109

[Orsino]

16. It's power. For proof...

...witness Fox's pathetic and short-lived attempt to reterm suicide bombers as "homicide bombers." The powerful fear us, and perhaps especially the idealist who can choose to die simply to make a statement--who can't be written off as a terrorist or murderer.

[Mari333]

18. makes sense.

the body is merely a vehicle. the monk did nothing more then take off his 'coat', and he knew it.
he took himself over for a cause he felt strongly about.

[Oregone]

22. I feel hopelessness

Forever humans are driven internally to such means from their painful perceptions of reality and its incoherence, but it continues to fall upon the deft ears of a creature who is incapable of further evolution. The few with the gift of empathy become victims to that which makes them so great or unique. Sometimes is it better to cut one's heart out, than to have it ache so fiercely?

[Aristus]

25. I always think of his sacrifice with awe and deep respect.

It seems Americans just can't get it through their heads what it was he was protesting, which was the abysmal corruption, incompetence, and religious intolerance of the South Vietnamese government. The idiots who are still hawkish on the Vietnam War, declaring that we were "fighting for democracy", don't know what the hell they are talking about. South Vietnam was not a democracy; it was a tyrannical autocracy that only received American aid because the ruling elite declared themselves to be anti-communist. Then, as now, America will prop up any tin-pot dictatorship in the world as long as they support American "interests" in the region.

Thich Quang Duc was a hero and a brave man. I hope he has found peace.

[TahitiNut]

27. I agree. It was the ultimate act of a conscientious activist, consistent with his moral principles.

It's no surprise to me that many cannot comprehend this. It took me years. Rarely have I ever seen someone "walk the walk" so profoundly, consistent with his beliefs, principles, and values.

Talk is cheap. So many here pontificate about illegal wars and involuntary servitude and corruption ... but risk virtually NOTHING to act in a manner that demonstrates a commitment to that rhetoric.

[RagAss]

26. It doesn't matter what the fuck we think.

Did it inspire his countrymen to fight and fight and fight for 12 more years? I don't know the answer to that, I'm not Vietnamese. Ask someone from there, preferably a Buddhist, what effect these kinds of sacrificial acts had on them.

[renie408]

28. I am not much into public suicide as a statement. n/t

[Kitty Herder]

30. He was protesting religious persecution by Ngo Din Diem.

Why do so few people seem to know why Thich Quang Duc immolated himself?

[Book Lover]

32. I did not know that

Thank you for your post - it prompted me to do a little more reading.

[POAS]

34. He was only one of many.

It brought the worlds attention to SE Asia when the struggles there were largely ignored.

[JI7]

37. we mostly view Vietnam through our participation in the war

rather than what was going on inside Vietnam.

the same can be said about Iraq and AFghanistan today.

[rasputin5]

31. He was an idiot. Dead people can't fix anything.

...

[Quantess]

44. I'm guessing he was depressed and felt hopeless despair, with or without the Vietnam war

And he thought this was a good excuse to commit suicide.

[Judi Lynn]

45. Sure, that's right. A man who has devoted his life to something greater is going to get moody,

and do himself in.

Your attempt to trivialize this man and the others who chose his path doesn't speak well for you.

Spend a moment trying to get an understanding of what was happening in his country at the time leading up to the action he took. If you knew something about it, you couldn't sound this ignorant.

[Quantess]

48. Suicide and depression are "trivial", you say?

That doesn't speak well for you.

[Iggo]

49. I feel nothing.

[TWiley]

50. And, he accomplished ........ what?