My daughter had a "talk" with me yesterday

[Horse with no Name]

She is in her 3rd year of college. She has been gearing towards going to pharmacy school. I've been thrilled with that because of salary, job security, etc. The majority of her college has been financed by scholarships...but those will be coming to an end next year and would not have covered pharmacy school and then loans would have been factored into the equation.
She has been nagging me to paint her bedroom, get new blinds, etc...
I really kind of put her off because she lives at school and I am in the process of sprucing up the rest of the house...and since she wasn't home very often it seemed silly to do hers before I finished the rest.
Anyway...we are driving and she starts the talk.
She has decided not to pursue pharmacy school. She has decided she doesn't really like advanced sciences but what she really wants to do is to come home and go to a local university for her last year so she can work full time at her job and live at home.
She is a numbers whiz and wants to pursue a career in forensic accounting.
She told me that she came to her decision because a pretty large group of her peers were shut out of student loans for next semester and are freaking out and she is fearful that she will end up not being able to finish school without a loan.
It seems all of these kids have been having brainstorm sessions on how they can finish their educations without loans and debt and this is what they are doing--even if it means scrapping their previous plans.
For some reason I find this very sad. Most of these are high-achieving kids without a lot of funding opportunities and without rich parents. The kids are getting worried about their futures.
I don't remember worrying like THAT while I was in college.:(

[Postman]

1. Thank you George Bush and your rightwing friends....

[lostnfound]

35. Student loan crisis isn't in the "news" even though colleges are warning of it.

Guess it's just another example of what neocons planned to dump in the lap of incoming President Obama.

Faux News will pretend that 'Obama got elected and everything is falling apart'.

[shadowknows69]

2. This is why this bailout should never had happened

Without assurances that loans, especially to students and small businesses would continue without fail. Shit like this flat out is destroying our future. Best of luck to your daughter Horse.

[Horse with no Name]

20. Amongst the MANY other reasons. Thanks! n/t

[Vinca]

3. On the plus side, good for your daughter and her friends for being

smart and imaginative and solving the problem. You must be proud,

[Horse with no Name]

6. I am proud but I agree and disagree

Some of these kids are brilliant and if allowed to continue on their paths to be doctors and scientists, we would ALL benefit from their brilliance. You will never convince me that only rich kids make the best doctors, but if they are the only ones who can get the financing to go to school--that is what we will have.
Instead...these kids are cutting back their college to pursue careers in something they can do with 4-year degrees.
I'm sure this is happening across the country and in the long run, we will all lose.

[Vinca]

12. Agreed. I hope any who want to pursue their education will pay

attention during the next few years and pick up where they left off when the time is right. It's shameful this country has become what it has. It makes you hope Obama is not only very intelligent, but a miracle worker, too.

[BR_Parkway]

4. We employ about a dozen students from the university near us

and the conversations since Sept have really turned to "what next" - the seniors graduating are worried about not finding jobs, the juniors and sophomores are aware of budget cuts on campus, programs being done away with, classes being dropped from the curriculum and a general worry that financial aid will be cut as well.

For any of the media who are still surprised that today's "apathetic youth" actually showed up to vote, I'd suggest they talk to some - the kids are painfully aware of the economic situation, not that they understand it all, but they are seeing the ramifications. And for a group who was born into prosperity and have never known anything else, it's very shocking for them to walk into a mall at a time it's always been busy and to find practically no one there.

[Captain Hilts]

5. My parents gave me no choice: go to the local U. and live at home. nt

[Horse with no Name]

7. If I had been paying for it, I might have been able to insist

but she had a couple of substantial 4-year scholarships and I have had to shell out very little.

[Captain Hilts]

15. Heading to college in the late '70s, or perhaps it was because it was VA...

I didn't know any kids that got a significant scholarship. Even the really smart kids that went off to William and Mary. I remember one got $500 bucks and that was it.

I think Virignia just wasn't that pro-education compared to say, Upstate NY, where the private schools made an effort to help local kids.

Or maybe it was because Virginians saw us military kids as Yankee carptebaggers.

[Horse with no Name]

16. I don't remember substantial scholarships like this either

One was from Dell...and the other was a local academic based scholarship.

[JerseygirlCT]

43. But in VA, you also had some excellent state schools

and some pretty decent prices at that time.

I remember looking at W&M (wait-listed me, the stinkers!). The private school I did attend (where my child is now) - tuition (incl room and board) then would just about cover his room and board now there. The costs today are out of this world. Really astounding.

More and more kids are turning to state schools for purely financial reasons. Which is cool when there's a good selection and good schools to choose from. And stinky when there's not much to choose from, you know?

[Captain Hilts]

52. A LOT of kids from NJ came to VA for college. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

53. Yeah, no offense intended to my home state,

but you have state-funded schools like UVA and Wm & Mary... well, NJ doesn't have a state school in that league.

[Captain Hilts]

55. Well, oddly enough, NJ just didn't have a great selection for state schools....

W&M, UVA, ODU, etc. all had a lot of Jersey kids.

ODU was also full of Vietnam vets, so it was a wild and wooly mix. I reall missed it after I went to a fancy school - U Toronto - for graduate school.

[Jim__]

8. Do you believe that she really doesn't like advanced sciences?

It's really the country's loss if our youth don't gain the knowledge that we need for the future. It is to the country's great shame if we don't find a way to fund these kids.

[Horse with no Name]

9. Not really.

But it is her rationale...

[Fumesucker]

38. Forensic accountants are going to be in big demand for some time..

I would say that is a pretty savvy career choice at this juncture.

[elleng]

10. Hey Horse,

I LOVE this story! I think its great that these kids are taking matters into their own hands, suggesting that they're getting where we'd like them to be: RESPONSIBLE ADULTS!

I certainly understand concerns about kids 'scrapping' previous plans, and I've discouraged my kids from doing that (at some personal cost,) but I'm HAPPY to hear this about grandkids of the 'greatest generation!'

[Horse with no Name]

14. I think that judging by the kids her age that I have met

I think we are in good hands.

[elleng]

19. Sounds like it,

like my younger daughter, studying elementary/special education, and my older daughter, studying public health > OT. I'm very pleased to hear about all of the public-minded schools/curricula/students.

[madrchsod]

11. she`s choosing the right field to go into

she has the right idea-go home,work,and finish school. plus you know you want her to come back home;-)

[Horse with no Name]

13. Well yeah

evidenced by the fact that I let her paint her room purple (well it is eggplant and it was a compromise color, but nonetheless...;) )

[polichick]

17. What's forensic accounting?

[Horse with no Name]

18. They look for fraud

in accounting.
They are generally CPA's with a minor in something like Criminal Justice.

[polichick]

23. Ohhh, thanks! I was wondering if I'd seen it on TruTV. Probably have.

[lostnfound]

36. I would guess they will be highly in demand after this credit default and bailout fiasco.

But demand isn't everything.

One bright side: It is somewhat possible that a 'forensic auditor' will do our society as much or more good as a pharmacist at this point in history. Pharmacy is certainly life-saving, but it's also under the thumb of big pharma and big HMOs more and more, with declining living standards and declining professional environment. (I'm recalling the thread about a local pharmacy getting taken over by a Walgreen's or CVS or similar chain, and the pharmacists being kept away from answering questions...)

[DemReadingDU]

21. There used to be programs, maybe still available - YES!

I'm not sure, it's been a decade since my kids were in college, but programs whereby communities (maybe it's the federal government) fund the education of a student and then the student returns to that community for a period of time (5 years?) to fulfill the obligation of say, being a doctor or maybe a teacher.
Sorry that I don't remember much more information, but students should be able to find that kind of info either thru their college, or maybe the Internet.

edit

Another way to pay for medical school is to enter into a government contract that says basically, “We, the federal government, agree to pay all expenses related to medical school and to give you a nice stipend if you agree to work for us as a military physician or serve as a primary care doctor on an Indian reservation.” The deal is quite nice for anyone considering joining the armed forces. There are several programs detailed below.
more...
http://www.studentdoctor.net/wiki/index.php/I'm_accepted!_How_do_I_pay_for_this%3F

check around - for additional info on similar programs.

another edit, this is a teacher program
http://www.udnews.org/2006/05/preparing_teach.html

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

22. My younger son started college this year and lives at the state college which is about 6 hrs. north

of here. He had saved up enough money to go for a year and half. He made a decision. He is leaving to live here at home and go to the local excellent community college to save money. He does not want to depend on loans and be saddled with debt.

I have been suffering from partial empty nest syndrome and it will be great to have him back home (I miss him so much) but on the other hand, when it comes to education, money shouldn't be an issue.

In other industrial countries, higher education is free and it should be free here too.

I hope horse, that all works out well with your daughter. She seems very level headed. :)

[Horse with no Name]

27. Good luck to your son too

And yeah, it will be nice having her home.:D

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

31. Thank you! I'm all excited about him coming home for Thanksgiving on Tuesday.

The pantry is stocked with chips and salsa for his return!

(His big brother and the kitties are going to love having him home too!)

:hi:

[Shipwack]

24. This in not really "either/or"....

This does not have to be the end of school for her. There is no law saying she can't go back to school in the future.

I'm also confused by this aversion to student loans. There's good debt and bad debt. Taking on some debt to get into a high paying field you enjoy that has a good job outlook is not a bad thing. It' not as if she wants to go to advanced school for eight years of basket weaving.

Also, the key word is enjoy. The question is: would she be happier doing a job she doesn't enjoy but having no debt, or being in debt, living a more frugal lifestyle. but arriving at work every morning with a smile?

[Horse with no Name]

26. These kids are being DENIED student loans

all tied into the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac crash and the way that the loans are bundled.
They aren't averse to the debt--these kids can't get it. I read on here a week or so ago that for some reason, these bundled student loans aren't selling even though they are guaranteed...so they are being clamped down on.
That is what these kids are worried about.
Apparently, the kids who were approved for loans before this crisis started will be good until the end of the school year...but the ones who applied after have been denied loans.

[Shipwack]

47. Sorry, I misunderstood.

I hadn't realized that it's a case of the student loans pool drying up.

My fault for posting before my second cup of coffee... :/

[buckettgirl]

56. So

Federal Stafford loans both subsidized and unsubsidized are no longer available, or what?

I graduated from our local university in May 2007 with a Bachelor of Science in Nursing. I started back to school in Spring of 2003. I can tell you that how financial aid is handled is stupid ridiculous.
I was unable to get federal student loans during my first year (03-04) of school because I was labeled as a "dependent" of my parents - nevermind the fact that I was 22 years old, hadn't lived at home in 3+ years, and they didn't claim me on their tax returns - and I was getting married 2 weeks into the school year. I appealed the decision and when I inquired as to why I was still denied, the lady I spoke to had the nerve to tell me "lots of people live with their boyfriends" in response to my argument that being married made independent of my parents, and that it would be only 2 weeks into the school year.

I had to have my parents co-sign Sallie Mae private loans for me to get through that school year.

And then, in the following years when I applied for financial aid, I got grant money one year - after that I was told that my husband and I were not poor enough for me to get a pell grant. My husband was our only income and supported us on $10/hr. Living on $20,000 a year for two people wasn't poor enough.

I now have $30,000 in federal student loans and $6000 in Sallie Mae loans. But so it goes, at least I have job security and we aren't poor.

I have found that half the problem is with the financial aid process is the full-out EXPECTATION that parents are fully obligated to hand college to their kids on a silver-platter. Which is a load of bs.
Parents don't owe their children a college education.

So, if student loans aren't available, I don't know what will happen. I couldn't have gone without them - we simply could not have saved the money to pay for tuition and books and all the fees of nursing school plus maintaining health insurance (which was a REQUIREMENT for admission to the nursing program).
We can't let our higher education resources fail, then this country will be in one hell of a big mess with no way out for sure.

[Horse with no Name]

61. That is the understanding that I have

The banks have tightened up and are not loaning to students. At least at this time.
I understand totally about the loans. I would not have been able to go to Nursing School without them.
It is surely going to limit the future prospects of some kids (and adults) out there.
I think this very well might be our next crisis but it hasn't hit the mainstream yet because most students at this juncture have their financial aid lined up for THIS year so the shit won't actually hit the fan until next summer when they are lining up for the 2009-2010 year.

[TWiley]

25. There is plenty of money available for superstition studies (religion)

Butt unfortunately, money has dried up for the math and science curriculum. Thank the nearest fundamentalist dipshit and staunch "conservative" republican for that one. Oops, almost all of them are both.

[JVS]

28. If she can't get the loans, can you spring for it or lend her the money?

You might want to let her know that if it might make a difference in her choosing what to do.

[Horse with no Name]

30. We are talking about $100k

I was more than willing to help with her costs...but I can't do $100k.
As it is, I pay her expenses...car, phone, insurance, etc...I just can't do the whole thing.:(
I wish I could.

[D-Lee]

29. Sounds like a good choice -- and you are entitled to be proud of her and yourself

Wow, there is one impressive risk-reward analysis!

Looks like your daughter also decided that she wanted a profession which will give her an impact on real events. Making that kind of choice is one reason that college students shouldn't feel locked into a career choice and be able to change their minds during the course of their education and learning about the world.


You must be one terrific mother -- thanks for posting!

[boobooday]

32. I teach at a University

And these conditions are terrible for all involved. Smart kids of great character and modest income are priced out and the university is a much poorer intellectual environment because of it. Then the elite institutions of government and business are full of the children of privilege and we get . . . Bushed.

[kristopher]

33. Things you should know to help advise your daughter (IMO)

What percentage of her expenses are being met by her student loans?

Exactly what type of loans are they?

What loans does she consider "at risk" of not being granted?

What does her current university financial aid department advise on the prospects of loans being available?

I have two daughters in college and I am currently completing a graduate degree myself. There are a variety of products in the student loan industry, and I'm not aware of problems with the "guaranteed student loan" programs where repayment isn't a worry for the lender. If there are private student loans in the mix, however, then the matter would be quite different.

I've noticed that my daughters sometimes presume to much on too little information; I mean, college isn't immune to rumor inspired panic. If anything, it is extremely fertile soil for them. I've found it is good policy to verify their understanding of problems such as you are describing.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest you take the time to familiarize yourself with the the FAFSA process and the programs covered by it, and then call the school your daughter currently attends and discuss her concerns with one of their counselors. If the loans are indeed the deal breaker, there may be other options such as Peace Corp, AmeriCorp or an increase in the funds provided by the college as an offset to the financial emergency.

Good luck, and if you have specific questions feel free to PM me.


http://www.staffordloan.com/

[ThomWV]

34. Has she considered the traditional alternative to loans and scholarships?

Time.

For people who do not want to go into debt to get an education time has been the usual fallback position. Instead of doing it in 4 years at a cost of thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars per year you do it one or two classes at a time while you work at some shit job but the end result is you get an education without debt.

[eilen]

37. It's good she has a fall back plan

When I was in college, I had to leave because of no money. There were no decent jobs that made enough for tuition and housing. I ended up working as a secretary for $8/hr until I eventually went to nursing school years later. I had student loans still from my first two 1/2 years and the secretarial course I took. Ten years after nursing school, I'm still paying on nursing school loans. The year I graduated nursing school, my base pay was $9.50 and differentials brought it up to $12.50. I worked mad overtime to save money for a home (we had a 5 year old son) outside the city. We moved in Labor Day weekend and thus were able to enroll him in the new school district (which unbeknown to us, was an entire year ahead of the city schools).

I'd like to go back and complete my 4 year degree but the costs are stratospheric. I've applied for a job that will offer educational benefits over time so hopefully I'll be able to do so. I have the mental capacity, just not the financial. I've met scores of idiots with 4 year degrees --who don't even ever READ--and they have an advantage over me in the job market because of that piece of paper.

Conversely, my dh's father paid for his college education and he does not value it. He is a union electrician and would have been better off financially if he apprenticed right after high school. However, I argue that he can easily go back for further training in green technology and engineering and excel at it.

My son wants to major in philosophy and someday become a professor. I advised him to double major in education. He plans to start off at community college and has even considered spending an extra year in high school as our district offers AP college credit classes which cost less than the college tuition. I'll have to see how he feels about this next year, lol, he just turned 16.

[Cleita]

39. I don't know if you ever had free higher education in Texas, but thanks

to Ronald Reagan and the rest of the Republicans he rode in on, free university and college education was ended in California in the University and State college system when he was governor. I hope that this new administration will try to address the problem of educating our best and brightest like the Scandanavian countries do. Yes, in Sweden you can get a quality free education all the way through university even up to getting a doctorate or two if you desire. With the huge indebtedness that our country is in now I don't know how it will help your daughter, but maybe in the future it can be done for her children.

[Sal Minella]

44. I remember Reagan's destruction of the California educational system.

He believed that higher education was an unnecessary frill -- after all, his own education consisted of attending a community college for two years, and how could anybody possibly hope to be a more successful human being than he was?

"Reagan Refugees" fled from a bludgeoned state educational system that (prior to Reagan) literally had "left no child behind."

Families in the eastern U.S. invested in private schools while their public schools were attended by children whose families couldn't afford private schools.

But in California, prior to Reagan's bloodbath, parents invested their energies in making their neighborhood schools as functional as possible. My children attended public schools with outstanding teachers in Oakland before the advent of Reagan's wholesale destruction of the educational system.

For this alone, Reagan's name should live in infamy.

[retread]

51. Before Reagan the California educational system was one of the best in the world. n/t

[TheCentepedeShoes]

59. I remember the free higher ed

in CA. I spent the summer of 63, before HS sophomore year, visiting an aunt and uncle in San Jose and found out you got free university, college or jr college depending on how high you ranked in your HS graduating class (or some such formula). Fell in love with Berkeley but my mom saw a mixed race couple walking down the street and freaked. Too bad she didn't see two guys holding hands or she might have had a fatal stroke...which considering -
I wanted to stay, have my aunt and uncle adopt me and complete HS in California.
Mommie Dearest (sans trip to the hospital) didn't cotton to the idea and honestly maybe auntie and uncle didn't either...screw them, I thought it was The Plan.
I can't recall when Raygun became gov and I finished HS in 66, maybe would have been grandfathered (granddaughtered ?) in.
Got a history degree in 70 from the U who is mostly famous for the ass-whipping they got last night.
Texas state schools were very reasonable back then.

[Madam Mossfern]

40. I had a similar conversation with my youngest son

who is finishing his Junior year. He want's to come home and finish school at a local University. He loves science too, but likes to work with his hands. He's majoring in sustainable landscape horticulture. His new plan is to get a teaching degree in sciences. This is not only about the drop in financial aid, but in considering financial independence when he graduates. My second son graduated last year, had a job over the summer (seasonal) and now is unemployed. He must have sent out a gazillion resumes...either there are hiring freezes or he is competing with people who have 15 years experience who are willing to work for entry level salaries.

BTW, his degree is in Political Science and is volunteering with our local Congressman.

[Ilsa]

41. I'm so sorry. A friend's daughter just started her first job as a RPh,

and she is making over $90k IN SOUTH TEXAS.

I wish the retail pharmacy giants would get on the stick and start offering scholarships to prospective employees.

Years ago, EDS paid for the education of employees as loans. yes, there was a contractual debt, but it was redduced for each year of service. An emploee could pay it off at any time. Perhaps quasi loans and scholarships could be offered.

[JerseygirlCT]

42. That SUCKS

That really, really sucks.

Damnit. These kids ought to be able to get that education without having to go through hoops or mortgage their entire future - or their parents' - to do so.

We've got to quit looking at a college education as an extra, and start realizing that it's what's needed now to keep up with our global economy. (Ditto preschool education, BTW). Educating our kids is THE investment we as a people need to make - open-handedly.

I'm glad your daughter is thinking so clearly, that's a great thing. But it stinks that she has to be worried like this right now.

[tblue37]

45. In this country, a talented athlete with the equivalent of a third-grade

education will be offered a free ride--a full college scholarship.

A merely brilliant student will be left to find funding on his or her own, often going so deeply into debt for an education that he or she will never be able to dig out of it.

People in other countries are astonished that we give scholarships to athletes rather than to the best students.

Furthermore, other advanced industrialized countries recognize bright students as the key to their economic future.

Once upon a time the US subsidized higher education, too, so that the kids of from the middle class and working class had a decent shot at becoming professionals with a reasonable chance at financial security, as long as they were willing to take their education seriously. The GI Bill, which enabled so many WWII vets to become professionals, established the foundation of the middle class in this country.

That was then. This is now.

[leftyclimber]

46. I empathize with your daughter, and I'm glad

to hear that she and her friends are trying to find mature and practical (and hopefully temporary) solutions to their problems (remember, she can always go to Pharm school later -- there's no age limit).

I'm an older doctoral student (pushing 40) at a big state flagship/land grant university, and I teach the survey class for our program's major. Our students are such a wreck over finances that the faculty and graduate TA's had a big meeting to figure out what we could do to help them. We are in a poor state -- 75% of our students are here on some kind of financial aid, and many of them are facing pressure to move back home and take a job to help support their families, who are also struggling.

We don't have any money to offer them, but during advising for next semester's registration we included a discussion about the campus counseling center as part of the meetings and handed out materials to make sure that they knew what psychological help was available to deal with the stress. The reason? We've had a rash of suicides on campus this semester, including a roommate of two of our students. We don't have hard evidence, but we suspect financial difficulties may be leading students to consider desperate actions.

In my case, I went to grad school after having two, count them, two, jobs shipped to India and deciding I'd better get out of high tech while the getting was good. I'm in a natural resources-based field and the funding is generally there. I take my qualifying exams in the spring, do my dissertation, and bing-bang-boom, I'm out in 2010.

Except that our program coordinator told me that they currently have been able to get no research funding to support graduate students next year. None. They're doing everything they can to make sure that all of us can stay on and finish, but the entire faculty is in a panic, trying to figure out what to do.

Like the undergrads, we grad students are tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt (sometimes more) and aren't sure if the jobs are going to be there or if we're going to be able to pay our loans back. We don't know what to do either and are trying to figure it out.

I wish your daughter and her friends the best. College and university tuition and funding is going to be a crisis for all of America, not just those of us who are in or work in schools. We're going to have to figure out a solution somehow.

[AwakeAtLast]

48. I started college in '88. I know how she feels.

I ended up transferring when it became apparent that my top choice college (so many hours of research) was all of a sudden too expensive.

It seems like she's making good decisions in adverse conditions, which will serve her well in the future. The upside is that hopefully in four years we will all have better conditions!

[izzybeans]

49. I had to have that talk with my wife when I decided to quit working on my dissertation.

My families financial health was more important than my hopes and dreams.

Now I'm an indentured servant with 6 years of graduate training, an M.A. in social science, and too many books. The only people that finished in my cohort (some are still working on their doctorates) were trust fund kids and fellowship winners (who ironically were made up entirely of trust fund kids).

[Captain Hilts]

54. Funding for phds IS a racket. I got a fellowship...

because I had a connection - weak - but still a connection, before I got there.

Only 25% of women finish and 40% of men.

I'm just now finishing.

Kids from academic families were often wealthy or really knew how to game the system and trust fund kids didn't need to. That left us military kids - all of us navy captain's kids kind of out on a limb.

[qwlauren35]

50. I'm sorry that the loans scare her.

In my generation, everyone had them. But perhaps tuition is more painful now, and loan rates are higher.

I guess I also assumed that a pharmacy degree would eventually pay for itself.

Just goes to show how little I know.

Are there any companies that will pay someone to get a pharmaceutical degree? Or maybe a pharmacology degree? Has she explored them?

I hope she's not too quick to give up her dream.

[aikoaiko]

57. Honestly, it sounds like she'll be better off with plan B.

Forensic accountancy is a much better paying and work life than pharmacy.

And if she can do that by living at home and not getting loans, then its a double win situation.

[havocmom]

58. after 8 years of bush/cheney, it would seem a field with much demand for sharp minds

Arizona U system raising tuition and then the state legislators look to that pot of extra cash for the general budget. Kids are taking it in the back of the neck pretty bad with all the GOP shit coming to a head.

It might not be a bad plan for some of the best and brightest to sort out the mess so some GOOD legislators can come up with policies that actually serve the people, including those people trying to get through school.

Young people wanting to be practical should be commended. This cultural trend of everybody living off on their own from very young is actually pretty new, and not necessarily good for society. It's good for consumerism, but not necessarily for people.

[aikoaiko]

60. I agree with you -- especially your last paragraph.

:fistbump: