Who really killed JFK?

[Taverner]

[Breeze54]

1. I'm really tired of talking about it.

[Taverner]

2. Then don't

May I suggest... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4520606

[Breeze54]

3. I don't need any suggestions. I'll read what interests me.

I believe in choice. ;)

[Faygo Kid]

8. I'm with you.

It's been 45 years, and a painful memory for me. Time to get a life for the endless conspiracists here.

[navarth]

16. Remember what Joe Biden said

'Past is Prologue'. How about 'learn from history, or repeat it'?

Should we also be bored with talking about the Iraq occupation? Sure there's a difference, but....I don't think we should be forgetting about the Kennedy assassination. I sincerely doubt anybody my age could forget it if they wanted do. I still remember where I was when I heard about it. I remember the whole thing. And I still have a nagging feeling about it.

I recently read 'Oswald's Tale' by Norman Mailer. And I'm currently reading "Ultimate Sacrifice" by Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartmann. You know what? Even if you're tired of hearing about the Kennedy assassination (as I'm sure a lot of you will tell me), the cast of characters in that particular drama is fascinating. George DeMohrenschildt alone is worth the price of admission.

"History is Bunk" said Henry Ford. But ol' Henry was kind of an asshole, I hear....

[Breeze54]

31. I've been hearing and talking about it for 40 years. Is that enough for you!?!

:banghead:

I have bigger fish to fry right now, as should you.

[navarth]

33. dude....we can fry more than one fish at a time I think

even if we're pleasantly stoned. (that is to say, I like your avatar but mildly disagree with you)

[Breeze54]

94. DUDE ... *groan* Have at... if you've got nothing better to do.

Whatevah Dude!! :eyes:

[navarth]

99. groan?

no need for that. I have plenty to do. I just think that what happened back then is still a part of what's happening today? What's wrong with that? Why the rolling eyes and sarcasm?

[Breeze54]

103. DUDE!1!1!

:eyes:

"I just think that what happened back then is still a part of what's happening today?"

Really? Who was assassinated recently? :shrug:

No one.

[navarth]

106. now now

really, why the sarcasm? is it possible for us to have a rational, friendly discussion here?

no bad vibes on my side. how about you?

[Divine Discontent]

133. definitely sounds like a bad day or 'batch' for some people. eom

[navarth]

139. no worries

are you including me? oh well...it could be better, for sure.

I hope your day is good.

[Divine Discontent]

142. meh, not the best, but thank you!

was referring to the behavior of someone that usually is pretty good, he must be having a bad time, I saw the thread they started. things are pretty screwed up in our country, and for most of us, it's not good. but I've still got a roof over my head and something to eat, so I'm thankful. best...

[bertman]

171. I'd be willing to put Paul Wellstone forward as one who was assassinated in the recent past.

Incredibly lucky timing for the Bushies, wasn't it? The most liberal Senator in the country dies in a plane crash 11 days before his re-election bid.

Here's an article that is worth reading if you are someone who believes that there are those in power who are willing and able to kill for their own political reasons: http://www.alternet.org/story/14399/

The history of the world and the U.S. is replete with political assassinations. We Americans have been so influenced by the corporate media that we think that there is no such thing as a real conspiracy. And, anyone who is brave (foolhardy?) enough to say there is a conspiracy is subjected to ridicule on a grand scale.

We all have many "fish to fry", Breeze54. Some of us think this is a matter of great importance to our nation.

[ailsagirl]

Actually it was Shakespeare said "What's past is prologue"

(from The Tempest) :)

But I'm with you. For people who don't give a damn, let them go to other threads. But this is something of utmost importance because our country underwent a coup de gras that day. The perpetrators pulled it off. That's pretty frightening.

George Santayana wrote, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

[onehandle]

4. Me.

I was 14 months old and I had an axe to grind.

[4lbs]

5. The CIA + LBJ conspired together.

n/t

[Divine Discontent]

136. my exact belief, too. eom

Many different Yes We Did items in the Obama/Biden section www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable

[Initech]

6. I strongly believe our 41st president had something to do with it.

[Taverner]

9. He was in Dallas the day it happened

[norepubsin08]

18. so was Richard Nixon

[kevinds13]

175. He was in Dallas the day before

not the day of.

[norepubsin08]

216. I thought he flew out that morning.

[Initech]

24. Yup.

The one fuckin' guy in all of America who really has no recollection of where he was the day it happened... doesn't that strike anyone as being even the slightest bit suspicious?

[Idealism]

13. Bush had what to do with that?

[Initech]

23. I dont know if he was the man who pulled the trigger but he was certainly involved in planning it.

Think about this - the right-wing had as much to gain from JFK's assassination as LBJ did. Kennedy stood for everything that goes against the BFEE agenda. I mean look at the history of the BFEE - Prescott Bush was involved in a planned coup against FDR and wanted to install a fascist dictatorship in America.

[Politicalboi]

14. Me too

And I'll even go as far as the Reagan attemp too. PNAC you know the usual suspects. If not our own government then why do the secret service stand down?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

20. I agree

that he was also behind the attempt on Reagan.

[Politicalboi]

28. Funny how the Bush's knew

The Hinckley's. I wonder how come that story didn't stand out when it happened? Just like the child porn stories about the Reagan WH.
I've read that Mark David Chapman worked for the Hinckley's on their Island. He may have been the second Manchurian Candidate with Sirhan Sirhan being the first. And the third failed.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

58. It all smacks of MK ULTRA.

[galaxy21]

97. I thought the association between the Hinckley's and Bush guaranteed Bush had nothing to do with it

Let's face it: If Poppy Bush was going off Reagan, he'd have gotten a professional with NO association with him whatsoever. No trail to lead back to. So, getting Hinckley (who could easily be traced back to him) to do it would have been stupid because everyone would have known he had some level of involvement.

I'm not saying GHWB wasn't capable of it, but he probably would have done a better job of it.

[Initech]

I think Bush hated Kennedy because of the way he fucked up the Bay Of Pigs invasion.

That was YEARS of planning gone completely to waste... and I think Bush held a grudge against him for that. I think it was more about revenge then it was about getting LBJ the presidency.

[lib2DaBone]

208. Agree..Look into Bush 41, the CIA and the Federal Reserve...you'll solve the mystery

[saltpoint]

7. I have no damned idea.

I'm not dissing your thread at all, Taverner, but I don't have much to add to the JFK speculation.

I will only say that I miss him on behalf of what he meant for my country, and that I miss him this time of year all the more.

[liberal N proud]

10. It happened in Texas

Who from Texas stood to benefit from his death?

[Greyhound]

11. Thanks to our militarized government, obsessed with secrecy, we don't know for sure.

Oswald almost certainly fired the shot, but beyond that, it remains a mystery.

[Sebastian Doyle]

21. Oswald probably fired a shot. He almost certainly did NOT fire the fatal shot

Would have been impossible as the bullet came from exactly the opposite direction.

[True_Blue]

12. Carlos Marcello

Have you ever read 'Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy' by John H. Davis? If you're interested in the JFK assisination, then you HAVE to read this book!

[navarth]

19. Thanks, I'll have to check that one. nt

[bertman]

173. True_Blue, that's an excellent book for sure. I think it has a lot of truth to it but fails to

tie the CIA and FBI in as collaborators. What many of us fail to remember, or weren't around at that time to be aware of, was this was a period of intense fear and hatred of the Communists. America in 1963 was obsessed with the Communist threat--any of this sound familiar?

There were many powerful people who thought Kennedy was going soft on Communism. Not to mention his affinity for oppressed minorities: black Americans. Having a President who was such a threat to the status quo Military Industrial Complex was just too much for them to take.

I think Marcello was just one piece of the puzzle. He certainly did not have the ability to get the SS agents to stand down in Dallas. That came from the government insiders who wanted JFK dead.

Until recently I was unaware of the alleged presence of George HW Bush in Dallas on Nov 22, 1963. Plus, his belated phone call to the FBI warning of an assassination attempt is very weird. To cap it off, I agree with all who say how in the world could Poppy Bush not remember where he was on that fateful day--that is beyond belief.

[Sebastian Doyle]

15. CIA/Bush Crime Family

Which were basically one and the same at that point.

[norepubsin08]

17. Rich business ceo's and owners in collaboration with the

Dallas Police and Sheriff's Departments

[EFerrari]

22. I voted CIA but that's misleading in a way because CIA is in the business

of developing networks and at that time, there were two important ones into the mob and into anti-Castro Cubans who themselves had mob ties.

And, CIA is not free standing in our government. They also network with other intelligence agencies and with the Pentagon itself and . . . I guess this list gets pretty long.

[Dogmudgeon]

25. Michael Vick

:spank:

--p!

[navarth]

35. No

It was Michael Vick's dogs

[deutsey]

26. I believe, based on my research, it was CIA black operatives teamed with anti-Castro

and powerful mafia players. It's a fact that there were overlapping relationships among these groups and that each had reasons for wanting to eliminate Kennedy.

Of course, there are the economic interests of some very wealthy elites that link these groups together.

To me, history shows this is how powerful ruling elites operate. For example, look at how many populares (liberal-minded Roman reformers that advocated for the poor and working people in Ancient Rome) were assassinated by members of the optimates (the conservative aristocratic class). The Gracchi Brothers come to mind. Some put Julius Caesar in that category, too.

[galaxy21]

161. I really find the idea of them teaming up together quite odd

If there was a conspiracy- big if- then it was likely only one group.

I can't see anyone involving the mafia. They're notorious for not being able to keep their mouths shout. It would have been too dangerous to get them involved in anything. They weren't reliable or trustworthy at all.

I've always found the idea that loads of people were involved it in quite strange: look, someone would have cracked by now, if that were the case.

[deutsey]

179. Regardless, it's pretty much established that some intelligence and mafia

alliances have occurred...Just as a for-instance:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/27/usa.cuba

I'm not saying this is smoking-gun evidence that they killed Kennedy. I'm just saying they had unsavory relationships with each other.

The "one group" you mention is made up of particular players from these groups who all had similar interests that they believed Kennedy screwed up. I'm not talking about "loads of people"...I'm talking about players who had overlapping allegiences.

Honestly, I don't obsess about this stuff, so I don't have the info at my fingertips. I've read what I felt was legitimate research on this and drew my own conclusions a few years ago. If you want, I will try to dig out the resources from which to quote. But, really, believe what you want, however thin I may find your opposing rationale. The two of us debating it in this thread won't prove or disprove anything to anyone...It's about differing worldviews, I guess. And I base mine on the research I've done not just exclusively on the Kennedy assassination (and what witnesses who were there say), but info on CIA/Mafia alliances, black ops in the '50s-'70s, political assassination going back to ancient Rome and Greece, among other things.

[galaxy21]

27. It was Oswald

Just looking at the evidence, it makes perfect sense.

People just like the conspiracy theories, because they don't like the idea that some lone nut can do that much damage.

[Occam Bandage]

32. Agreed. Same reason for the 9/11 conspiracies. A world in which

a handful of nutjobs on the fringes of society are capable of killing thousands and changing the course of history is a scary, unpredictable, dark and dismal world indeed. Belief in a higher power directing seemingly random tragedies for some unified purpose, whether that power is God or the CIA, brings a reassuring feeling of order.

[misanthrope]

129. 9/11 WAS the result of conspiracy...

...between radical Islamic terrorists. And it was successful.

While I don't agree with overly intricate paranoid fantasies, I really don't like the way "conspiracy" has become a pejorative in our society, an automatic disclaimer. People conspire for things all the time and in a wealth of scenarios.

[EFerrari]

34. What evidence are you looking at?

It always surprises me when after even our House of Representatives were forced to admit there was probably a conspiracy that people just blow it off.

Oswald wasn't a lone nut unless you think intelligence contractors are lone nuts. Good grief.

[galaxy21]

41. The main evidence (Zapruder film) actually backs up the the arguement that Oswald did it

It was their opinion that there 'was probably a conspiracy' but really they couldn't elaborate on it all.

[EFerrari]

43. But that film doesn't account for Oswald's intelligence history

in any way. Was this his day off or something?

And, sorry, but do you actually expect the House to say outright that CIA killed Kennedy? Leahy is being pretty careful about how he criticizes the FBI for framing Ivins for a crime he couldn't do.

That's not the way to live a long life in public service.

[galaxy21]

47. I don't think Oswald was as dumb as people think, although he wasn't particulalry smart either

Honestly, he just got lucky. It was a crime of oppertunity: he read JFK's route in the newspaper the day before and realized what he could do.

[EFerrari]

48. There's no way someone as caught up in intelligence contacts as he was

just reads the paper and does anything.

In a way, it would be so much less painful and easier to get over if he had.

[galaxy21]

50. I think when the forensic evidence and the video evidence backs up the theory Oswald did

everything else is overreaching.

Maybe you could argue it was 'suggested' to him, but really, I think "they" would probably have gotten someone more reliable.

[EFerrari]

51. "They" probably did. Because if we put together LHO's involvement

with intelligence, his crappy marksmanship, his uncertain temper and the fact that he'd never done anything significant independently, the narrative just doesn't work. He's not a lone nut, he was connected. He was not sold to the American people as a CIA contractor gone bad.

[galaxy21]

53. Doesn't the fact that he missed a fatal shot the first time, show evidence of Oswald's crappy

markmentship? I mean, I'm assuming he waanted that one to be the fatal shot, but he missed his head, didn't he? It took him three times to get the fatal shot.

As for his uncertain temper...that would probably be further evidence that he did it.

[EFerrari]

55. You'd have to believe that out of control people are effective.

They aren't. They don't have the discipline to carry out plans. They don't have the focus. They don't have the support.

That whole "lone nut" story doesn't really work when you start pushing on it.

[galaxy21]

57. Look at Hinkley, though

He was out of control, he was crazy. He had the perfect chance to kill the president and easily could have. Reagan only survived because he was lucky and he had good secret service guys.

[EFerrari]

59. I think that's right. But seriously, you don't believe that out of control people

are in general effective? Hinkley failed -- if he ever really wanted to kill Reagan -- didn't he?

[galaxy21]

63. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't and its not hard to believe that everythink went right for

Oswald.

It didn't help that JFK's security team failed him. I greatly admire the secret service and everything they do, but the fact is, on that morning the idea of a sniper taking him out on route was brought up by the secret service, and was mentioned to kennedy himself, but they never checked up on it. If they had, they would have found Hinkley and, yes, like most lone nuts he would have failed.

Everything had to go right for LHO that day, and unfortunately, it did.

[EFerrari]

65. I have to disagree. There's too much cr@p all around Oswald

for him to have acted alone. There's too much cr@p around Ruby. There's too much cr@p around the Warren Commission. And there are two conservative reports from the House that questions the Warren Commission. This is so much bigger than Oswald. He couldn't from the grave manipulate the Warren Commission or seal the files for 50 years. What was that about?

I'm frankly amazed the House went as far as it did publicly.

[galaxy21]

72. There was a lot of crap about Hinckley as well

His dad used to work for GHWB! Can you imagine what people would have said about that if reagan had ben killed and Bush had become president? But again, there's no doubt that Hinckley acted alone.

I think the hinckley comparision is significant because no one has found any Hinckley consparcies because no one was looking. No doubt if people had searched for years and years (like they did with Oslwad) they'd have found a lot of 'interesting connections' as well.

My point is: if you look for a lot of conspiracies, your probably going to find them.

[EFerrari]

76. That's frankly anti-intellectual bunk.

There are always the 10% of people who talk to Oswald through their microwaves. And then there are all the other people, from Robert Kennedy to me, who have looked at the material and called bullshit on the official story.

A lot of interest doesn't equal bullshit. In fact, tamping down public interest should be a big red flag to those of us with a stake in democracy.

[galaxy21]

81. I thought RFK accepted that it was Oswald

Jackie hated him for the rest of her life. I'm not sure any other Kennedy has publicly commented about it.

As for the "anti-intellectual bunk:" Honetly, its now easier- and more anti intellectual- now to accuse random people of killing JFK,than just accepting the fact that is was a lone gunman (which is backed up by the evidence).


And its hurtful: Ladybird Johnson was deeply irate when people accused Lyndon of being a murderer. I've even heard people on here accuse GHWB of being involved with JFK's death. Now I'm no fan of the guy, but is there any real evidence for that? Or to indicate Castro was involved. Again, not a fan of the man, but accusing him of murdering JFK is unfair when there's no evidence whatsoever.

[Alexander]

199. RFK once yelled at LBJ "Why did you have my brother killed?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijBqqbSzq_Y

One of the rare moments where LBJ was caught off guard.

[NoSheep]

109. Bush and Hinkley's were connected...

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about Hinkley/Bush:

Bush-Hinckley family connections
According to the March 31, 1981, edition of the Houston Post, and reported by AP, UPI, NBC News and Newsweek, Hinckley is the son of one of George H.W. Bush's political and financial supporters in his 1980 presidential primary campaign against Ronald Reagan; John Hinckley Jr.'s elder brother, Scott Hinckley, and Vice President Bush's son Neil Bush had a dinner appointment scheduled for the next day.<4>

Associated Press published the following short note on March 31, 1981:

"The family of the man charged with trying to assassinate President Reagan is acquainted with the family of Vice-President George Bush and had made large contributions to his political campaign ... Scott Hinckley, brother of John W. Hinckley Jr. was to have dined tonight in Denver at the home of Neil Bush, one of the Vice-President's sons ... The Houston Post said it was unable to reach Scott Hinckley, vice-president of his father's Denver-based firm, Vanderbilt Energy Corporation, for comment. Neil Bush lives in Denver, where he works for Standard Oil Company of Indiana. In 1978, Neil Bush served as campaign manager for his brother, George W. Bush, the Vice-President's eldest son, who made an unsuccessful bid for Congress. Neil lived in Lubbock, Texas, throughout much of 1978, where John Hinckley lived from 1974 through 1980."

btw: I think Poppy could have been involved with the JFK murder. And it doesn't surprise me to learn there are more higher powers who use their sons as sacrifices.

[galaxy21]

117. Yeah, but I said earlier I thought that was why Bush couldn't have been involved

Is he evil enough to do it? Probably. But he's not going to pick someone who could lead back to him, is he? Everyone would know it was him.

[NoSheep]

187. we know so MUCH of what they've done in broad daylight

I don't think they're touchable. No matter what. Look at the past 8 yrs. I don't need anymore evidence than that, really.

[Alexander]

202. Or maybe he knew most people wouldn't bother to look up the facts.

Be honest, would you know about the Hinckley-Bush connection if not for DU?

How many other people know about it?

Yet the connection is there.

I suspect Bush knew about the attempt on Reagan, which is why he was conveniently out of the country.

The fact that it could be traced back to him means nothing.

Congress started and then abruptly abandoned an investigation on this in 1982.

I'm sure if Reagan had died in the hospital, the investigation would still have gone nowhere.

When you're in the CIA, you get to know a lot of people in the media, government and the military.

[John1956PA]

73. It is said that the first bullet hit a branch on the tree between Oswald and JFK.

I don't know what the truth is. However, for the sake of argument, I will add this. Gerald Posner wrote in his book, Case Closed, that the first bullet hit the branch of the tree. As a result, the bullet broke into two pieces, one of which struck the pavement of Elm Street where witnesses allegedly saw a spark fly. The other part of the bullet made its way to the area of the triple underpass and struck a curb, thereby causing a flying bit of concrete to cut the face of a witness standing nearby.

[Taverner]

74. As much as I disagree, I can see a case for the 'Oswald Commie' argument

That is, Oswald was a true blue Communist who wished to destroy the US - and after infiltrating CIA backed ops (free cuba committee, etc) he came up with the idea that he needed to kill JFK so that the US would attack the USSR.

I disagree with this idea, but I could see it happening.

[kevinds13]

176. His chapter of the Free Cuba Committee was a sham.

He was the sole member. So how exactly does printing off fliers by ones self connect him to CIA backed ops?

[timtom]

201. Don't be too sure about that.

Check this out.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/media/drawings/route.php

[ailsagirl]

158. Oswald was not who he appeared to be. I have done some research

into his past and am startled by what I've read. Here's one good link.

http://www.jfklancer.com/oswald.html

I found it very odd indeed that after he was arrested, he was interrogated for 12 hours and not one note nor one bit of recording was made. For the Crime of the Century, that strikes me as very troubling.

How many Oswalds were there??
http://home.wi.rr.com/harveyandlee/

[deutsey]

37. I actually used to believe Oswald acted alone

until I read about the doctors in Dallas who treated Kennedy and insist they saw a massive exit wound in the back of Kennedy's head. To my knowledge, they still insist that this was the case. Then there's what the House committee on assassinations concluded in the '70s (that there was probably a conspiracy), and the strange things going on in Dallas right before Kennedy was killed (e.g., the "umbrella man" holding his umbrella open along the motorcade route--on a sunny day--moments before Kennedy was shot), and the fact that eyewitnesses (police among them) ran to the notorious grassy knoll where they believed the head shot came from...

There are many other things (what I've learned about CIA black ops around the world) that have cast enough doubt on the "lone nut" theory for me.

Ultimately, though, I don't think we'll ever really know with any certainty what happened. But based on my own personal research, I've come to believe Oswald did not act alone, if he even fired any shots.

[John1956PA]

169. I believe the "Umbrella Man" testified before the House committee in the 1970s.

I think I remember that his testimony was to the effect that he had disliked President Kennedy's father, Joseph Kennedy, especially with regard to Joseph Kennedy's service as Ambassador to England. I believe the "Umbrella Man" stated that his intention behind holding the umbrella along the parade route on November 22, 1963, was to hurl a sarcastic barb at the legacy of Joseph Kennedy who apparently was often photographed with an umbrella in hand.

[deutsey]

181. I've heard that too, and, personally (for what it's worth) found it a flimsy explanation

But who am I to say?

I just found it an amazing coincidence that this guy chooses to make his statement right at the moment when Kennedy is passing by and is shot the first time. But coincidences do happen. I just think an amazing number of coincidences happened that day in Dallas.

[ailsagirl]

221. At the time, we all believed it. Then people started finding out

more about LHO and his past and realized that something was not adding up. Lots of books on
the subject-- hundreds. Some more credible than others but many of the filling in at least a
piece of this thousand-piece puzzle.

Lone nut-- no way.

And I don't believe he fired any shots-- I think there were 2 - 3 teams of sharpshooters
there who did it strictly for the money. Then they were probably gotten rid of before long.

I wish someone would comment on JFK's limousine, which had a shattered windshield. Lots could
have been done to discern which direction(s) the bullets came from, but instead the car was
almost immediately washed out (right at the hospital-- the car was the scene of the crime,
remember), then it was sent back to Washington, and from there was taken to the Ford Motor
plant where the windshield was destroyed and a new one put in. More evidence erased.

Imagine covering up the evidence "in plain sight" of the crime of the century.

I've been to Dealey Plaza and everything looks as it did back then. Gave me the creeps.

[azmouse]

39. I agree.

I read Bugliosi's book about the assassination.
He convinced me that Oswald acted alone but then I never really believed in any of the conspiracy theories anyway.

[galaxy21]

44. I always say: If Reagan had died in 1980 when he got shot there would be many conspiracy theories

It was the CIA! It was the Russians! It was Jimmy Carter! Hinkley was a patsy! It was the mob!

But we know full well Hinkley was a just a crazy guy who loved Jodie Foster. There was not any more to it than that. Reagan almost died because a guy had a crush on an actress. And JFK died because 'some silly little communist' wanted to make a name for himself. Its scary and unpredictable, but it happens very often.

[EFerrari]

46. But that doesn't account for Oswald's intelligence connections.

Baby, bathwater.

[ailsagirl]

222. And he had a stunning number of connections in high places.

I think he was a CIA operative. It would answer for much.

[RC]

78. I'd like to be a dictator of a country full of compliant people like you.

Problems would be so easy to solve.

[NoSheep]

111. That's all YOU know about Hinkley. Some of us know "full well" more.

reagan almost died because someone connected to the Bush's shot him. A fact. Now that makes me ask questions.

[Art_from_Ark]

218. Reagan was shot in March 1981

Two months after he was inaugurated.

It's funny how there's always a crazed "lone gunman" involved in American presidential assassinations (Booth, Guiteau, Czolgosz, Oswald), and how the succeeding VP either takes a radically different approach from his predecessor (Roosevelt going after trusts and monopolies that had supported McKinley, Lyndon Johnson ratcheting up the Vietnam War after Kennedy had pledged to reduce American involvement), or gets skewered if he doesn't (Andrew Johnson impeached for being conciliatory toward the defeated South, Chester Arthur denied nomination for a second term after basically following Garfield's moderate platform).

[ailsagirl]

149. It was an intricate plot that had to have involved the highest levels

of government. It's easy to shrug and say it was a lone gunman-- but it simply wasn't.

[Julius Civitatus]

190. Oswald did it, yes, but he did NOT DO IT ALONE

There's no way in hell he pulled the whole thing by himself. Plus there's too many bizarre coincidences that make it unlikely.
It's clear Oswald was in it. What's not so clear is that he was the lone person behind it.

[cushla_machree]

214. What always struck me

Is the video of Oswald after he was arrested, he looks genuinely confused. Don't know if he could be that good of a faker.

[ailsagirl]

223. He was duped-- he was a patsy-- he did NOT do it

There was some sort of involvement (his intelligence ties) but not to murder the president.

[Mari333]

29. The mob was pretty pissed off when RFK started looking into them

and it was Sam Giancana, mob boss, who pushed the votes over in Chicago to get JFK in office.
I think the mob did it.

[EFerrari]

36. The mob was taking hits over Cuba, so those two groups

overlapped, the anti-Castro Cubans and the mob. CIA was involved with both.

[Warpy]

30. I only know two things

The Warren Report was a whitewash.

Jack Ruby was sent to shut Oswald up.

The rest is speculation.

[navarth]

40. that's 3 things

I'm just sayin

[EFerrari]

42. So, what can you deduce from that?

The Warren Commission was a whitewash. Why would anyone need a whitewash?

Jack Ruby was sent to shut Oswald up. Why would anyone need to do that?

Of course there was a conspiracy. Oswald and Ruby are the proof that there was one.

It was exactly like the ones in the small Latin American countries I'm more familiar with but this one happened here, where most people don't believe it can happen. That is how governments behave. That is how interest groups behave. Are we exempt, magically? That's the real question. How honest are we willing to be about our own government? It's not easy to answer that question.

[edc]

80. Two Questions

Why did the Secret Service lead President Kennedy into an
obvious ambush site on 11/22/63 and then allow at least three
shots to fired at him over a period of seven seconds before
reacting?

Why were interceptors never scrambled from Andrews Air Force
Base to defend Washington on 9/11/01 when two fighter
squadrons are always ready to scramble from there specifically
for that purpose?

[Festivito]

137. 6 years and this is your first post. Wow.

That deserves a response or two.

One might think the Secret Service was ordered to move aside and to change the route. They would not bow to politicians, nor local law, nor even the FBI, but I bet they would bow to the CIA if so asked. That would be the pecking order back then.

I can only imagine the SS was taken by surprise that day. They were off their station when Hell broke loose. It was unthinkable back then. It was no longer 1860s, this was the modern 1960s. The limo took off. What would YOU do? Run after it. Join local law enforcement to find shooters. Call the office. True that he who hesitates is lost, but, this was not in the training manual.

The 9/11 scramble is interesting. Cheney was handling a practice THAT DAY for that very same scenario. The jets were eventually in the air, they seemed to go very slowly by some reports, I don't know. The tapes made by the command center in Colorado were taken out of the machines, shredded, and placed into different wastebaskets IIRC.

LINK TO MY "CRAZY" POST FOR THIS THREAD, have fun:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4521876#4523060

[bertman]

174. Great first post, edc. No coincidences involved in either situation. All well planned and executed.

Sorry. Bad choice of words perhaps.

[ZombieHorde]

38. The firearm acted on its own.

[AntiFascist]

45. The United Fruit Company and the Mob....

were big in Cuba before Castro took power. The cane sugar industry also was very big in Cuba prior to Castro's rise. Zapata Oil, Bush Senior's company, likely played a role in the Bay of Pigs invasion. Texas oilmen were already connected with Brown & Root (later Halliburton) and were likely becoming interested in continuing American aggression against Communism, etc, and the CIA was to play an important role. Nixon was in charge of Bay of Pigs and had all the CIA/mafia connections. LBJ was angry that he might not serve a second term as vice president and he may also have had connections to Texas oil. Regardless of how the assassination actually went down, there was a lot of right-wing anger directed at JFK at that moment in time. The "umbrella man," who opened his umbrella just before the shots were fired, was symbolic of that anger, and he told the Warren Commission that he was there in an act of protest.

[Alexander]

49. The CIA, Mafia, Texas oilmen and anti-Castro Cubans.

They all collaborated in some form or another.

And when I say "Texas oilmen"...

[EFerrari]

52. Bingo. n/t

[Beausoleil]

186. This is generally how I see it too.

Not the CIA as such, but definitely rogue elements as contacts to the anti-Castro types and to the Mob.

Mobsters Giancana, Trafficante and Marcello were involved; notice how the Mob takes care of those who are scheduled to testify before Congress (Roselli, Giancana hit).

Texas oilmen includes the Hunts and Murchisons. DeMohrenschildt was a petroleum geologist.

[Alexander]

197. People don't want to believe that they are constantly being lied to.

That requires vigilance, time and energy, to detect and point out the lies.

So many people don't bother.

And when obvious bullshit comes at them, they'd rather try and explain that because it's the "safe" option.

All the DUers here who are 100% sure it was Oswald, alone, remind me of the DUers who were sure that Bush would never send us to war, or that there was no way to prevent 9/11, or that Lieberman would vote with the Democrats.

A lot of people don't have the time and energy to think about all the ways we've been lied to and manipulated, from MK-ULTRA to the Bay of Pigs/JFK assassination to Watergate to Iran-Contra to the reasons we're in Iraq.

So their brains shut down and they parrot a "safe" talking point, like "Oswald did it" or "Saddam is a bad guy" or "There's no way Bush could lie to start a war/steal an election/ignore information about terrorist attacks".

Why, there are many of them on this very thread.

[Paladin]

54. I'm Sick To Death Of Decades Of Groundless Speculation

Those of you who believe the CIA or the Mafia or some space aliens are responsible for the assassination, quit jerking off and prove it.....

[EFerrari]

60. Why don't you treat yourself to the Church report and the Select Committee on Assassinations report?

Because I for one am sick to death of ignorant knee jerks, too.

[AntiFascist]

62. Please refer to the posts in this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4516451&mesg_id=4516451

and no one said space aliens were involved, you just threw that in in an attempt to discredit the obvious conspiracy.

[Paladin]

167. Obvious Conspiracy? Prove It. (n/t)

[AntiFascist]

170. The first shot hitting JFK came from the rear...

which arguably could have come from Oswald. Even if the magic bullet theory is true, it doesn't explain the second shot which sent brain matter toward the rear of the limosine. Some even claim there was a third shot, simultaneously with the second, which could have come from the side, possibly from lower in the street or a stormdrain.

[Shiver]

56. Yeah...

The Reynolds Wrap board of directors would like to thank you for putting their children through college.

[EFerrari]

61. Another testament to American literacy. n/t

[Shiver]

64. I'm not sure I follow...

And it's 'testament'.

[EFerrari]

66. That's right. I corrected the spelling. n/t

[Adsos Letter]

67. Of all the things to say...

Oswald said he was a patsy...of all the things to say, why that? Unless, of course, he was...

[EFerrari]

68. There's that. Why didn't he say, "I didn't do it." Or, why not

"Free Cuba!" or any number of things. Why go right there? :shrug:

[Adsos Letter]

70. My belief has always aligned with those who thinkk he was involved...

but double-crossed.

[EFerrari]

75. Yep. He was used. n/t

[blm]

69. NOT CIA as an agency, but a certain branch of Bushloyalists at the CIA.

The ones who've been using the cover of CIA to do the bidding of the fascists.

[desktop]

71. Explaining the collaboration vote

I can't say just the CIA, as I believe only elements of the CIA were involved. This was a right wing group of individuals within the government. I don't believe any organization sanctioned it. Powerful individuals recruited the assassins, who at least one and maybe two were probably CIA trained killers.

[tinrobot]

77. He was killed by conspiracy theorists.

It's been almost 50 years since it happened, get over it.

[Cetacea]

79. His brother too then.

"They were the first in the President's entourage to realize that the assassination was a well-organized plot," the chapter disclosed. "They discussed it among themselves at Parkland Hospital and later during the plane ride back to Washington. They mentioned it in their personal reports to Secret Service Chief James Rowley that night. Ten hours after the assassination, Rowley knew that there had been three gunmen, and perhaps four, at Dallas that day, and later on the telephone Jerry Behn (head of the White House detail) remarked to Forrest Sorrels (head of the Dallas Secret Service), 'It's a plot.' 'Of course,' was Sorrels' reply. Robert Kennedy . . . learned that evening from Rowley that the Secret Service believed the President had been the victim of a powerful organization."


http://www.jfk-online.com/farewellturner.html

[unblock]

82. i know some people say it was "suicide", but i insist it was "natural causes"

i'm tired of the same old theories, time for something new!

:evilgrin:

[1776Forever]

83. Jack Ruby, the man who shot Oswald, said it was LBJ in this video tape - link.........

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-177236594543303

I think it must have taken the links to the CIA for LBJ to have carried this out with, of course, the help of GHW Bush.

[galaxy21]

85. Really, you want to say LBJ is a murderer?

the man who committed political suicide to give black people civil rights? The man who did more for black people than any other president since lincoln? The man who fought for human dignity and basic human rights?

That guy was cold blooded, uncaring, selfish murderer?

[Thothmes]

144. The man that got 36,000 Americans Killed and another

200,000 wounded in war that he trumped up? Yes he was a cold blooded uncaring selfish murderer.

[1776Forever]

185. Read my reply #184 and the following...And by the way I didn't say it was LBJ - Jack Ruby did.

THE POLITICS OF SAD MEMORY: Mega-Moments in Modern American History
PLUS - New Senate, House, and Governor Outlook Summary Charts

Larry J. Sabato
Director, U.Va. Center for Politics

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/article.php?id=LJS2006090701

The death of Nellie Connally a few days ago brought back an aching shock and a flood of unhappy memories for Americans about fifty years of age and older. The last survivor of the JFK assassination car in Dallas, Mrs. Connally was the final personified reminder of a day that will live in infamy, November 22, 1963. Even now, it is difficult for most older people to recall that day without experiencing anew the terrible horror of an unthinkable act--and feeling the awful melancholy of what might have been.

By the way, Mrs. Connally was a prominent disbeliever in the single-bullet theory, an essential component of the lone-assassin conclusion of the Warren Commission Report. The single-bullet theory, devised by a Warren Commission staffer named Arlen Specter (now the senior U.S. senator from Pennsylvania) suggested that one bullet inflicted critical wounds on both President Kennedy and Governor John Connally of Texas. In a private conversation at the LBJ Library in the early '90s, Mrs. Connally insisted to me that both she and her husband distinctly heard and reacted to the shot that first injured President Kennedy--and it was not the one that nearly killed Connally. John and Nellie Connally apparently never wavered in reporting that the Governor was struck by a separate bullet than the one that pierced JFK's neck (the one before the fatal head shot). If the Connallys were correct, it would have been impossible for Lee Harvey Oswald to have acted alone since there was not time for Oswald to shoot both officeholders in the time recorded by the Zapruder film, the only continuous visual evidence of the assassination.

(snip)

To Lyndon Johnson's credit, he was able to harness all that sympathy and guilt to pass the most extensive civil rights agenda since the Civil War, and LBJ's domestic Great Society was as dramatic in many ways as FDR's New Deal. But JFK's killing also began a terrible decade of unintended consequences. Johnson's insecurities and bravado led to America's disastrous involvement in Vietnam, with over 500,000 troops committed and 60,000 American casualties suffered by war's end. Few historians believe that John Kennedy would have been so foolish as to expand the Vietnam conflict to this extent. And would Richard Nixon have staged his successful comeback had Kennedy lived to serve two full terms? Without Nixon, the Watergate scandal would never have happened.

..........

It is history that will write the truth in the end, it will not be me or you.

[McCamy Taylor]

87. No way. LBJ was a bleeding heart. Others might have done it thinking that LBJ was preferable to JFK

For instance, J Edgar Hoover seems to have had something of a crush on LBJ, plus he always admired LBJ and thought that he was a staunch anti-communist---even though LBJ was a Democrat. However, they had no idea that LBJ carried the New Deal in his soul (he was apparently a favorite of FDR) and as soon as he was sworn in he used the JFK assassination as an excuse to pass some of the most progressive legislation of the second half of the 20th Century.

So, unless you are going to say that LBJ was disappointed that JFK was not living up to his potential as a progressive and so he decided to make him a martyr to the progressive cause, I am going to have to say No, it was not LBJ .

[1776Forever]

184. Your opinion - Ruby says in the video it is the man in the office - if not LBJ who?

HUNT BLAMES JFK HIT ON LBJ

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01142007/gossip/pagesix/pagesix.htm

January 14, 2007 -- E. HOWARD Hunt - the shadowy former CIA man who organized the Watergate break-in and was once eyed in the assassination of President Kennedy - bizarrely says that Lyndon Johnson could be seen as a prime suspect in the rubout.

Only the most far-out conspiracy theorists believe in scenarios like Hunt's. But in a new memoir, "American Spy: My Secret History in the CIA, Watergate & Beyond," due out in April, Hunt, 88, writes: "Having Kennedy liquidated, thus elevating himself to the presidency without having to work for it himself, could have been a very tempting and logical move on Johnson's part.

"LBJ had the money and the connections to manipulate the scenario in Dallas and is on record as having convinced JFK to make the appearance in the first place. He further tried unsuccessfully to engineer the passengers of each vehicle, trying to get his good buddy, Gov. Connolly, to ride with him instead of in JFK's car - where . . . he would have been out of danger."

.............

AND THIS:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/300806jfk.htm

Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | August 30 2006

LBJ Night Before JFK Assassination: "Those SOB's Will Never Embarrass Me Again"

Outside the debate of magic bullets, multiple shooters and grassy knoll theories - an astounding deposition of a deliberately planned criminal conspiracy straight from the horse's mouth.

The night before the Kennedy assassination, Lyndon Baines Johnson met with Dallas tycoons, FBI moguls and organized crime kingpins - emerging from the conference to tell his mistress Madeleine Duncan Brown that "those SOB's" would never embarrass him again. It's a jaw-dropping deposition and it's the biggest JFK smoking gun there is - despite the fact that it has received little media attention.

Before her death on June 22 2002, prolific author and lecturer Robert Gaylon Ross had the opportunity to conduct an 80 minute sit-down interview with Madeleine Duncan Brown and from that lengthy discussion the truth about exactly who was behind the assassination of JFK was exposed.

Though Brown first went public on her 21-year relationship with Johnson in the early 80's, to this day her shocking revelations about how he had told her the Kennedy's "would never embarrass me again" the night before the assassination are often ignored by the media who prefer to keep the debate focused on issues which can't definitively be proven either way (or at least can be spinned and whitewashed).

...........

The evidence keeps building.

[Divine Discontent]

207. Richard Millhouse Nixon

TRICKY DICK.

He hated Kennedy, and he was a dirty untrustworthy crook. I believe it is very possible that LBJ in conjunction with the CIA (and thus Nixon allies) did this. But, I also think they (Ruby) could have easily wanted to blame LBJ for something Tricky Dicky did. Who knows, but that Ross interview about Ms. Duncan saying LBJ told her the Kennedys "would never embarrass me again", sounds pretty bad.

[AntiFascist]

104. Whoa, excellent video!

I suspect that a lot of mob-CIA related people and Republicans were trying to protect Nixon by blaming LBJ. Nixon narrowly lost the election which put Kennedy into power, and he was still able to take charge of the Bay of Pigs operation, in fact, perhaps he was in charge of the right-wing CIA factions that didn't want to answer to Kennedy. Ruby once worked for Nixon.

[McCamy Taylor]

84. Easy access to guns. In a gun free society, we would be much safer.

[slackmaster]

195. The last time there was a gun-free society on Earth was about the year 1340

People were not particularly safe then, and guns are not something that can be un-invented.

Of course I suspect you are being hyperbolic. I have met very few people who would disarm governments.

[EVDebs]

86. The CIA. And the linkages to the MLK and RFK assassinations...

I was told that JFK had been murdered by a classmate who ran up to us on the playground during our grade school recess. We eventually came back to class and the teacher was crying. We later were sent home. I get home and my dad, who I'd never seen cry before, was crying. We were glued to the tv for the next three days....

Assassinations of JFK, Dr MLK, and RFK linked

For those of you who think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, please consider this, that now those 'debunkers' who hooted and scoffed at all those 'conspiracy nuts'..they're all trying to save some face now. It seems that the work of Joan Mellen (author of A Farewell To Justice and Temple Univ professor) in getting FOIA's has paid off. She uncovered the CIA/Oswald 'handler' named George Joannides.
Now that may not seem earthshaking, but it makes mincemeat out of guys like Gerald Posner and his ilk,

Celebrated authors demand that the CIA come clean on JFK assassination--
Gerald Posner, Norman Mailer and Don DeLillo back lawsuit to open secret files on CIA mystery man tied to Lee Harvey Oswald.


http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/12/17/joannides/index.html

And just look at the mess they've made out of the JFK murder evidence from day one.
The Zapruder film is either a fake or has been doctored and/or the autopsy photos of JFK are fake or doctored, see

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/wound.html

While the 'debunkers' are in retreat, let's move on to the MLK assassination, where attorney William Pepper managed to win a case for the King family that resulted in a jury verdict that there WAS a conspiracy to murder Dr King,

William F.
Pepper - An Act of State
The Execution of Martin Luther King
Talk given at Modern Times Bookstore, San Francisco, CA
4 February 2003
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WFP020403.html

and if you read that article you find this interesting tidbit,

"But the Bob Kennedy who was killed in '68, I think was a very different person. I regard it as one of my sadnesses that I did not see him at the end. Because he had made an overture to Martin to run as a Vice-Presidential candidate with him. It was not generally known. But when he made his announcement, March I guess it was 15th or 16th, he made contact with Martin and I'm sure that contact was known.
"

RFK had asked Dr King to be his running mate ... I'll just let you digest the importance and magnitude of that for a second.


Now if that wasn't enough to get Bobby whacked, take in the fact that in 1968 a certain George Joannides now shows up being mentioned in the Guardian article,

Did the CIA kill Bobby Kennedy?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/20/usa.features11

"Trawling through microfilm of the police investigation, I found further photographs of Campbell with a third figure, standing centre-stage in the Ambassador hotel hours before the shooting. He looked Greek, and I suspected he might be George Joannides, chief of psychological warfare operations at JM-Wave. Joannides was called out of retirement in 1978 to act as the CIA liaison to the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) investigating the death of John F Kennedy.
"

Not only that, but little known to the general public, is the fact that the LAPD's investigation in to the murder of RFK was headed by an officer Lt.
Manuel Pena (from an earlier blog of mine, this information):

Robert D.
Morrow's book "The Senator Must Die" pages 209-210:

"...A former LAPD officer named Lt. Manuel Pena was chosen to head it ( LAPD's 'Special Unit Senator' investigation of the assassination). Pena mysteriously appeared back at LAPD after having retired from the force in November 1967....

"FBI agent Robert LaJeunesse, whom Turner (San Fernando Valley Times reporter William Turner) had known for years before in the FBI, confided to him that Pena had left the LAPD for a 'special training unit' at a CIA base in Virginia--Camp Peary, Virginia, known inside the Agency as "The Farm". In fact, said LaJeunesse, Pena's departure in November 1967 had not been a one-shot deal. The detective had already performed some special assignments for the CIA in Central and South America, working with CIA operative Dan A. Mitrione, a former Indiana police chief...

"Further confirmation of Pena's CIA involvement came from his brother, a high-school teacher, who casually mentioned to television newsman Stan Bohrman how proud Manny was of his services for the CIA over the years.
"

Morrow thought that a Pakistani with a camera was the shooter, however, and this book is basically "banned" in the USofA, although I believe some libraries might still have copies ( I might know where to find one even ! ), and as part of a lawsuit, Morrow was ordered to destroy all copies of the book.


Now we have Rawstory's new evidence suggesting a second shooter,
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Scientists_Multiple_shooters_in_RFK_assassination_0326.html

And people are just now beginning to ask pertinent questions regarding what really happened during 9-11's attacks on the World Trade Center Twin Towers.


You can be sure this is going to get interesting: the 'Jersey Girls' have retained the above mentioned attorney William Pepper, who won the MLK case, in their NYC 9-11 Ballot Initiative,

http://www.911blogger.com/node/13476

The truth will indeed set us free.

[TexasObserver]

88. Elements of CIA, FBI, Hoover & Dulles, with tacit approval of Nixon, Bush, LBJ ...

If not outright involvement of them

[galaxy21]

89. Can we stop calling LBJ a murderer?

He was a good man, and helped push through civil rights.

As far as Nixon and GHWB go, well they might not have been good men, but it still doesn't make sense. Why would Nixon agree to it? He wasn't going to run against Kennedy in 1964. He was out of politics for that period, anyway. What was his motive? GHWB...well, he's been involved in a lot of shit in his time, undoubtedly, but I have a hard time linking him to this.

You're accusing three former presidents of murder, based purely on specuation.

[TexasObserver]

100. Can you stop including others in your conclusions? Ain't no WE here.

I liked the good things that LBJ did. He made some great changes in America.

That doesn't mean he was unaware of what really went down in Dallas.

You clearly enjoy believing differently than I do, but I don't care about your opinion. I've read the opinion you've stated many times, and rejected them years ago, through knowledge. I don't seek your agreement, and don't care how much it annoys you. Don't read it, if your eyes and mind are so easily injured.

[galaxy21]

112. "That doesn't mean he was unaware of what really went down in Dallas"

Well, then your calling him a murderer, or an accomplice to murder. Which I think it an unacceptable to thing to say about a well respected former president. Especially, when there is no real proof.

Ladybird Johnson was greatly distressed by such accusations when she was alive, so you can't say this talk is harmless.

[TexasObserver]

118. You're offended. How many ways do I need to say "I don't care?"

[galaxy21]

122. Well, at least your no longer attempting to justify slandering a good man's name

[TexasObserver]

124. I don't have to justify it, but I have already done so, earlier.

I'm sorry your ignorance about LBJ impairs your ability to evaluate him more intelligently, but that's why I suggested you spend a few years educating yourself. Get that GED, then read some books. Try a few magazines, maybe a newspaper.

[galaxy21]

126. Would any of your claims hold up in a court of law?

If not, then I'm pretty sure that's slander.


And you havn't laid out your case at all. Other than picking a bunch of random names and claiming 'they were all involved in it'

[TexasObserver]

132. Yes. And please don't use words like "slander," of which you have no understanding.

First of all, you can't slander a dead person.

Secondly, truth is a defense to the allegation of slander.

Third, there's that PUBLIC FIGURE exception you clearly don't understand.


Stop typing and start reading, and maybe you won't have these embarrassing episodes.

[galaxy21]

135. Embarressing? You're the one just picking everyone and linking them together

with no real proof whatsoever.

A simpler question would be: Is there anyone you don't think was involved?

Where is your evidence for all this?

[AntiFascist]

116. Nixon was not "out of politics" at that time by any means...

He was in Dallas stirring up anger against JFK with a newspaper article quoting him saying JFK was planning to dump LBJ, on Nov. 22nd.

After the assassination it was reported that Nixon immediately held a meeting planning a future presidential run.

He was counting on winning the previous presidential bid against Kennedy in 1960 and, as such, planned the Bay of Pigs operation. He may have still been the one who carried it through, against Kennedy's wishes.

[galaxy21]

123. But Nixon didn't run in 1964

Yeah, he ran in 1968, but he wouldn't have been running against Kennedy even if he had lived. So, why would JFK need to be out of the way?

[AntiFascist]

138. JFK could have easily served 2 terms, and then his brother Robert after that...

Right-wing military-industrial-oil factions wanted both out of the way immediately. JFK was so upset over the Bay of Pigs that he wanted to break apart the CIA.

[galaxy21]

141. There's a lot of overeaching there- especially trying to link RFK's death with JFK's

From all indications Nixon wanted to run against RFK in 1968 (they had a lot of dirt on him and thought he was easily beatable.)

I'd never heard that JFK wanted to to break apart the C.I.A though.

[AntiFascist]

154. I don't know that Nixon was behind the assassination of Robert Kennedy...

but Robert was possibly responsible for the material in the book "Farewell America" (discussed elsewhere in these threads) which was presumably to be used during his campaign, and which painted a picture of a broad-based right-wing conspiracy behind JFK's assassination.

The exact quote of JFK is that he wanted to "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds." It's true that in the years since he made that statement that he continued working with the CIA and even made glowing statements about the organization. Regardless, Dulles may have remained a mortal enemy and there may have been CIA factions sympathetic with him.

[Thothmes]

145. Tell that to the 36,000 Americans in the ground because

of LBJ. Tell that to the 200,000 wounded Americans because of LBJ Tell that to the millions of Vietnames dead or wounded because of LBJ. Tell all those victims of the Vietnam war what a good man LBJ was.

[galaxy21]

147. And what about all the black people that were able to vote because of him?

He knew it was political suicide for himself and the democrats, but he did it anyway because it was the right thing to do.

Was his presidency a success? Probably not. Vietnam overshadowed everything. But to just call him an evil man and a murderer is very, very unfair.

[Thothmes]

166. His political downfall was not as a resutl of the voting rights

act. His political demise was due to his inept handling of an unnecessary war. Unfair, how fair was it to the millions of dead and wounded he caused.

[galaxy21]

168. Yeah, but he still signed the voting rights act despite being warned the democrats would lose the

south for a generate (which is exactly what happened). That's ballsy. Whether you want to admit it or not.

I agree he has a lot to answer for Vietnam, but his unwavering support for civil rights can't be ignored either. I'm not saying 'its fair' or 'unfair' that he doesn't have a great legacy because, like you said, all those lives, it ultimately doesn't matter. But pretending that guy didn't do any good while he was in office is clearly inaccurate.


Eisenhower stalled on civil rights, Kennedy was reluctant because he knew the consequences of pissing off the south, and you think Nixon would have done anything about it?

[Thothmes]

182. I never said that he did not do anything good

I just reminded people that the man got more people killed than George Bush for just as flimsy a reason. Since LBJ was a Democrat, he seems to be given a pass for his war crimes.

[ailsagirl]

224. I suggest you check this out from a program called "The Men Who

Killed Kennedy." (These segments were withdrawn once LBJ cronies got wind of them. They're unavailable anywhere now except YouTube.) When LBJ's lawyer says flat-out that LBJ was responsible, how can you refute that?
Who directly and immediately benefitted from the murder?

Also see this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4516451&mesg_id=4523267

LBJ was a VILE man. There are lots of books about it. You should check some of this stuff out.

http://users.crocker.com/~acacia/meeting.html

[StrictlyRockers]

92. TexasObserver nailed it.

[galaxy21]

93. But it doesn't make any sense...there's a lot of overreaching going on

Hey, lets say Jimmy Carter was involved in the conspiracy too. And Barbara Bush. Hey, how old was Bill Clinton in 1963?

[TexasObserver]

102. It doesn't make any sense TO YOU. Adjust your receiver and it makes sense.

The problem is your mind, not ours.

You choose to believe such things are not possible. Fine. But why must you annoy others who are better informed and have looked more intelligently at this issue than you?

[galaxy21]

108. Fine. Why would LBJ, Nixon, Bush, Hoover..etc all risk their political lives to do this?

And let's face it, if they got found out that would be it for them.

Was there anything about LBJ to indicate he was sociopathic enough that he would plan an assissination and then comfort the man's widow less than half an hour after it happened? As for Nixon the guy couldn't even break into a building without getting caught, now all of a sudden he's involved in the crime of the century?

As for GHWB...people are now blaming him for the Kennedy and the Reagan assisinations/attempted assissinations. It reminds me of that x files episode where its revealed the cigarette smoking man is responsible for all the major events of the century. Bush was a weak one term president with a few dodgy associations. Not this all powerful figure people are making him out to be.

Unless, oh my God...GHWB is the cigarette smoking man!!

[TexasObserver]

113. Because they were evil men who commonly used murder to get their way.

You have a very naive view of the men you mentioned. I suggest you spend a few years reading up, THEN start talking again about the JFK assassination.

[galaxy21]

119. Yeah, LBJ was evil. Which was why he fought so hard for civil rights.

[TexasObserver]

121. Yes, he was an evil man, notwithstanding the good things he did.

That is clearly too much for you to comprehend, so stop trying, before you hurt yourself.

A human can be evil and still do good.

Or do you expect all evil men to be nothing but pure evil? That's silly, but then ....

[galaxy21]

125. LBJ cared about human rights and human dignity

but he's going to plan to shoot his running mate cold bloodedly in the head? And then comfort his widow less than an hour later? And talk to his mother?

I understand people can be different shades of grey, but he'd have to be downright schizophrenic to do all that.

[TexasObserver]

130. Yeah, that's why he sent two million boys to kill a million Vietnamese peasants.

Because he cared about human rights and human dignity.

Like I said, Read a Book, Read a Book, Read a Muther Fuckin' book!

[galaxy21]

131. I'm not going to defend him over Vietnam, but he didn't do it maliciously

He really did believe in the domino effect. The guilt haunted him for the rest of his life, and eventually killed him.

As for reading a book: I don't think I'll bother buying a copy of 'World's wackiest conspiracy theories' thanks.

[Alexander]

203. Oh no, LBJ's Kellog, Brown and Root connections were out of human kindness.

:eyes:

You are so naive.

By the way, what company did KBR eventually become?

If you said "Halliburton", you'd be correct.

Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex.

I wish more people like you had listened.

[ailsagirl]

225. Amen. Once you start looking into it, you realize we were lied to

[Kazak]

90. The whole thing stinks about as bad as 911!

:shrug:

[moondust]

91. Texas Mafia.

The gun-totin', government hatin', war lovin', northeast liberal hatin', greed machine that owns Texas (J.R. Ewing and Tom Delay types). They couldn't resist the opportunity to off a northeast liberal and install LBJ as The World's Biggest Big Shot. LBJ did not have to know about it and probably didn't.

Of course, Nixon didn't like him either.

:shrug:

[Crunchy Frog]

95. I don't know, but I doubt the official story.

[fla nocount]

96. A young CIA operative is sitting in a 6' deep D.O.T Type 3 storm drain..

structure. Before him daylight filters through a 3" x 5' slit in a 6" curb under the overpass at the bottom of Dealy Plaza. Behind him is a 4' diameter RCP (reinforced concrete pipe) that leads to it's out-flow into the Trinity River just a few hundred feet away. Comfortable stooping is all that will be necessary in retreat and anonymity of his crime, he's protected by his elders and their failed attempt at dominion. But 15 years have passed and the clock has been rewound, his masters and handlers are confident and that calms and comforts him.

He remembers as he waits the tales of his childhood. The rising of the masses and their cries for recognition at the expense of his family's hereditary rights to exploit them. His rifle is ready, it's sights adjusted by people who know what they are doing, it's point and shoot and here it comes.

The cherubic face of the working gentry, smiling and waving, his designer wife at his side. The masses hopeful, comfortable and expecting CHANGE in the way that they are represented.

WE used to count. WE used dictate to you, your sons and daughters, WE called the the shots you vermin, you useless feeders...CRACK!!!!

There's no hurry now, all is chaos above but just written procedure down here. Break down the gun and bag it. Bend and shuffle towards the light and a future full of hope for you and yours. There's full light as you stand and stretch at the end of the pipe, handing the bag to Carlos and accepting the Dixie Cup he offers you. Kool-Aid, tastes like it anyway, still it's good to stand and stretch and drink.

"Where am I"

"You're in New Orleans, you were dropped off last night by a friend of your Dad."

"Why is everyone so flat, this is a party town, I don't remember how I got here but I'm glad that I am, where's the party?

"Son, President Kennedy was assassinated yesterday morning."

"Really!" "Where was I?"

[Rhiannon12866]

98. I don't know, and I'm afraid that we'll never learn the real truth.

I have long hoped that we'd learn the truth in my lifetime, but most of the major players are gone and the evidence was compromised from the beginning, so I'm not holding my breath...:-(

[Lucian]

101. I believe George H.W. Bush had something to do with it.

Oswald was the fall guy.

[BeHereNow]

105. I agree with you.

BHN

[End Of The Road]

110. But GHWB wasn't even elected to Congress until 1966

Could he have been in any sort of position to have been a player? But I agree he's certainly evil enough...

[Taverner]

114. But he was head of the CIA at the time

[hileeopnyn8d]

153. No he wasn't

No he wasn't. He wasn't head of the CIA until 1976.

[BeHereNow]

120. You have no idea... are you familiar with his father? Prescott Nazi Bush?

The CIA was just the transfer of the Gestapo to US soil.
IG Farbin is now called Halliburton.

BHN

[End Of The Road]

160. Yeah, quite familiar with ol' Prescott

but still, GHW was heading up some oil company in Houston in '63. My likely suspects are still Hoover and Dulles.

[ileus]

107. Bush 41, everyone knows that.

[Festivito]

115. CIA. Interesting so many against who have strange profiles.

No place, many posts-short time, no profile at all, ...

We may finally be reaching a turning point on this issue.

Bush phoned the FBI(FBI documented, recently released) with a strange lead while an hours drive from Dallas, 45 minutes after the shots. Bet he had a fast car as president of Zapata oil and secretly a CIA man. Oddly, he cannot remember where he was when he heard the news. Was he driving FROM Dallas? He won't say. He's the only person in America who cannot remember this detail, where he was when he heard the news. (The photo of George Herbert WALKER Bush leaning against the Book Depository might not really be him. Okay. NBD.)

The Walker family had a sugar plantation in Cuba. They wanted it back. THEY STILL DO. The Cubans are happy enough(could be happier), but the Cuban mafia, any mafia, is not happy with Castro. They'd train to become marksmen to kill Castro. Then Kennedy, why not, Kennedy stood in their way to getting Cuba back.

The guys paying the mafia guys did not want JFK pulling OUT of Vietnam. Military money complex. And did not want the CIA being disbanded as JFK threatened. FBI Hoover was visited and threatened to not investigate(document he hid, recently released). Johnson didn't want to die fighting these guys. So, he winked at them and lived.

There was at the time well funded armaments on Caribbean islands poised against Cuba that Hoover would regularly infiltrate and raid. No one knows who the infiltrator is. Oswald was a guy who went to Russia, returned and still managed to get government jobs AND SECURITY CLEARANCES.

CONJECTURE:

Did Oswald, working for Hoover, try to buddy up to Bush so he'd know the next island Hoover would want to raid. Maybe intended to say he'd shoot Kennedy for Bush, never having the intention to hit the target, maybe having the intention to miss, the intention to be the shooter rather than letting someone else really do it.

When that other person did shoot, when the Secret Service did get out of the way, when the car path did change, when his purposely missed shot seemed to hit, he panicked, he was a patsy, he knew it then. He pulled the trigger as the umbrella man signaled, but that signal had signaled Oswald and timed Oswald's shot to the one probably from the grassy knoll so the shots could be confusing. Maybe a couple extra spent shells are dropped by Oswalds gun.

Bush leaves the scene to make a call from elsewhere and have his location far from Dallas confirmed in an FBI file. He leaves the FBI a false lead to keep them busy until they threaten Hoover making Hoover stop investigating. Hoover complies but documents the visit and places the document in a huge pile of documents that are then hidden from view for 40 years.

Oswald had to die or else his FBI connection would be public. Ruby could be convinced it would be in his best interest to kill Oswald and he did not know enough to make any embarrassing statements.

The rest was cleanup. Stacking the Warren commission with people who were pliable or did not want to die. Connelly is buried with the bullet still in his body. No forensics with the famous gun. Extra conspiracy theories are thrown around to discredit any attempt at a real one.

[AntiFascist]

128. Ah yes, the Walker family sugar plantation in Cuba...

I was wondering about that. Any connections with Pepsi, I wonder?

[Festivito]

140. That's our W. But, what will be the choice of a new generation?

The torch has been passed yet again.

(And, the location of my cell phone was just now rechecked again.)

[Divine Discontent]

127. LBJ acting with the CIA... so many wanted him dead, but I think these were the culprits

he led in the belief that everyone had a right to be something in this country, and that makes grave enemies... I pray for our new Pres! He will be great for our country.

There's a google video of Jack Ruby saying LBJ did it.

[bunkerbuster1]

134. I am resolved/resigned to never really knowing.

I don't think I will ever feel confident with any explanation.

I think it is possible that Oswald was the sole shooter; I've visited the book depository, and I don't consider what he accomplished a superhuman feat.

I think it is possible that Jack Ruby really did just happen upon the perp walk and killed Oswald out of anger.

I also think it is far more likely that there was a conspiracy, and that those involved will never be brought to justice, even posthumously.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

143. CIA assets involved in anti-Castro activities

in collaboration with their buddies in the Mafia. Common interest made the alliance happen. Anticommunist right wing fervor plus the Mob's desire to get its safe haven in Havana back and their hatred of RFK's anti-Mafia crusade made them natural allies.

[mirrera]

146. I like DU today for getting it right! CIA all the way...n/t

[ailsagirl]

148. Ask yourself who benefitted, then go from there.

[galaxy21]

150. Yeah, but a lot of people benefited, that doesn't mean they were all involved

Yeah, they all had motives, but you need more than a motive.

The problem for me is that all the Kennedy theories hinge on 'well X could have done it" but that doesn't mean they did. Just that they could have.

[ailsagirl]

152. Good point-- but who directly benefitted?? LBJ, CIA, & Hoover

Check out this post I made earlier:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4516451&mesg_id=4523267

[Canuckistanian]

151. Certain rabid elements of the CIA who thought JFK wasn't aggressive enough against "Commies"

The Bay of Pigs was a major reason.

But also the Mafia/Mob gang who wanted Cuban communism "cleaned out" so they could run their HIGHLY LUCRATIVE casinos and resorts there.

GHW Bush also needs to be water boarded to find out WHERE HE WAS, WHO HE WAS WITH and WHAT HE WAS DOING in Dallas on Nov. 22rd, 1963.

Preferably before he kicks the bucket.

[galaxy21]

155. I would seriously mark out if GHWB confessed to killing JFK

"Well, I'm nearing the end of my life and I've decided to be honest. It was me. I was a young C.I.A agent and I had orders. I was at the grassy knoll. It was me!"


The American public: "Well we still don't hate you as much as your son"

[B Calm]

156. George HW Bush and the CIA!

[Dinger]

180. That Gets My Vote!

[galaxy21]

157. If it wasn't for the Zapruder film I probably would believe in a conspiracy

But that film does back up the theory that Oswald did it. And I think we can safely say Zapruder himself wasn't a part of any conspiracy, so him filming it was unforseen by anyone.

[ailsagirl]

226. The film was extensively edited to support the lone gunman theory

[OwnedByFerrets]

159. We dont have to guess. Its all right here in this book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=xjnbIwAACAAJ&dq=jfk+lamar+waldron

Legacy of Secrecy: The Long Shadow of the JFK Assassination
By Lamar Waldron, Thom Hartmann

Thom and Lamar have spend years researching this information. They traveled the world looking for clues and interviewing people. This is as close to the truth as you will ever get.

[Samantha]

163. And it is also here in this book:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3120010&mesg_id=3121565

"Once one learns of LBJ's total history, he or she will no longer disallow the possibility it was within his makeup to eliminate a President of the United States. One of the most compelling motives was his literal hatred of the Kennedy family and the fact he was facing almost immediate indictment over his dealings with the corrupt practices of Billy Sol Estes and Bobby Baker. An ascendancy to the Presidency would protect him from prosecution, so Johnson felt."

and

"An early chapter lists 18 people whose death LBJ either directly ordered or was a participant in. On the list was LBJ's own sister. She had the capacity to destroy LBJ's political prospects simply by revealing all she knew of his scandalous dealings, and obviously she was a risk LBJ could not afford to allow to survive (according to the author).

And Bobby Kennedy,

"On June 18, 1963, Robert Kennedy had publicly embarrassed Johnson. Johnson was chair of the Equal Employment Opportunity Office President Kennedy had set up by executive order. Robert Kennedy attended and openly attacked Johnson. The message was that the vice president had no future with Kennedy, with the Democratic Party, or in government. The public display underscored the fact that Johnson was not only afraid that he might get caught in the Estes or Baker scandals. He might be dropped from politics. At the time he simply could not take any more criticism, and his anger toward the Kennedy "boys" worsened." (at pages 184-185)"

Written by Barr McClellan in 2003, father of Scott McClellan, this book is pretty damming.

That aside, 51 separate witnesses swore they heard shots coming from the grassy knoll. Most of them were on the knoll when the assassination happened.

It is beyond comprehension people today still embrace the Warren Report. Even Gerald Ford didn't believe it.

Sam

[frogmarch]

162. Oswald killed JFK and acted alone. nt

[Missie56]

164. CIA and rich oilmen/defense contractors

in order to prolong the Vietnam War, to increase the wealth of the military-industrial complex.

Good article here http://www.prouty.org/giamarco.html

[Missie56]

165. JFK was going to start bringing people home from Nam.

The oil and defense millionaires/billionaires knew that if LBJ got the Presidency, they would get their war.

[ailsagirl]

189. I think you're very close though I also think it's an incredibly

tangled and intricate series of events leading up to it. It's always about war. :(

[Missie56]

210. and money.

LOTS of money.

[ailsagirl]

220. War = lots of money

It's disgusting and unforgivable
:puke:

[readmoreoften]

172. It was totally me.

Me and Basement Cat. I know now that it was wrong. Basement Cat doesn't think so.

[tomreedtoon]

177. You hollered out, "Who killed the Kennedys..."

...but then, after all, it was YOU AND ME.

We all killed the Kennedys. We all should be put to death.

NOW are you conspiracy jerks happy?

[leeroysphitz]

178. Free Masons. N/T

[MadBadger]

183. CIA, LBJ, and with a little help from Hoover

[kwassa]

188. Britney Spears did it.

[apocalypsehow]

191. Pontius Pilate. n/t.

[anonymous171]

192. I would not be surprised if the CIA had something to do with it.

But most of the evidence points to Oswald acting alone.

[Julius Civitatus]

193. Oswald killed JFK... but he did NOT ACT ALONE!

There's no way he could have been pulled all this by himself.
Plus, keep in mind the following:

- Oswald was a former sniper from the marines (Edit: Radar operator, as pointed by others)
- Somehow, he becomes a communist and decides to leave the USA and defect to the Soviet Union... in the middle of the worst years of the cold war!
- A couple of years later he changes his mind, and decides to come back to the USA... in the middle of the worst years of the cold war. And the US government let's him in, after openly stating his defection to the Soviet Union! There's been suggestions about Oswald himself being black-ops.
- Within 72 hours of the JFK killing, and just before he was going to declare in front of a judge, Oswald was assassinated by Jack Ruby, a local with shady connections. Case closed.

Too much. Too many weird circumstances.

While I believe there are too many conspiracies about the JFK killing, some of them too ridiculous, it's important to notice the bizarre unusual, and suspicious circumstances surrounding the case.

I personally have no doubts Oswald did not act alone or randomly.

[Deep13]

194. You just explained how he did act alone.

:shrug:
Personal incredulity is not an argument.

[Julius Civitatus]

198. No, I did not. Not sure what your point is.

Yes, I don't believe he acted alone. My point was that, as suggested by others, Oswald was probably black-ops.

What I did is to list a few items that make the story very bizarre. I did not mean those items to "justify" he didn't act alone. Maybe I mixed two thoughts in the same paragraph, but i didn't mean those items as justification that he worked with others.
My point was that, unless there's a good explanation for why this nobody was allowed in and out of Russia in the middle of the cold war, or the motives behind this shady Jack Ruby guy, I will never believe this is anywhere near solved.

[Deep13]

204. It is hard to believe only because you are concentrating on one person.

Out of 200 million or so American adults, the odds that someone would have that background make it likely if not inevitable. Add the additional factor that JFK's route through town went past LHO's building and was published ahead of time and the assasignation attempt is unavoidable without fore-knowledge.

[Julius Civitatus]

205. Why was Oswald allowed back in the US after defecting to Moscow

right in the middle of the cold war?
At the time, people were persecuted and prosecuted in the US for belonging to the communist party. Careers were destroyed by the witch hunts of the McCarthy years. People were deported from the USA for being accused of having communist tendencies.

Yet, here we have this former soldier who publicly declares himself a communist and publicly defects to Russia... and he is allowed to come back to the US after he "changes his mind" years later?

Seriously?

Also, before Oswald testifies, he is murdered by a guy with mafia connections, while Oswald was surrounded by dozens of Dallas police, FBI, and secret service agents. Sure, that happens every day, right?

The case is murky, bizarre and with such a strange cast of characters and circumstances that it is not far fetched to be suspicious.

[Deep13]

206. What did the State Dept. say when you asked them?

Anyway, the cold war wasn't THAT cold.

After shooting a popular president, you are surprised that someone wanted to kill Oswald?

[Missie56]

212. In 1947, one JACOB RUBENSTEIN of Chicago was called

to testify to the HUAC. He was excused from testifying because he was working for Congressman Richard M. Nixon. A few years later, Jacob Rubenstein moved to Texas and changed his name to JACK RUBY.

ailsagirl (#189) is right--it is incredibly tangled and twisted. There are so many ties and links among the "players."
http://www.politicalfriendster.com/showConnection.php?id1=4754&id2=385


for example,I wonder how the murder of Dallas police officer Tippet fits in.

[Cetacea]

217. Tippet was known as JFK on the force.

Weird in itself. I once heard a radio show where the guest did a forensic computer match of Tippet and Kennedys faces. Amazingly close. It's also odd how there are so few photographs of Tippet to be found.

I am not suggesting that they needed another body to mess with the official autopsy...

[Missie56]

227. Oh WOW, Artiechoke....

I recall pictures of Tippet from old books, and he does have a JFK-ish look....This is fascinating. I had heard of theories that Tippet was supposed to be the one to shoot LHO, but chickened out when he learned it was to cover-up the assassination of the Pres. Tippet was killed because he was going to spill the beans.

BUT--

Having a body that matches...hmm...would really answer alot of questions eg: autopsy photographs not matching the x-rays, different coffins, the claim that JFK was taken to Walter Reed before they took him to Bethesda, and another body present in the Bethesda autopsy ante-room......

Thanks Artiechoke--This whole line of possibility never occured to me.

Now I have to find out where Tippet's wounds were......

[Liberal OIF Vet]

200. Oswald was not a sniper....

He was a radar operator.

[leftofthedial]

196. the right wing "national security" apparatus

CIA, proto-neocons, with help from the Mafia and the Cubans and the military.

[bobd0]

209. Other: The Bush family nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

211. We all know what really happened.

HFCS

[Missie56]

213. lots of information here

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/index1.htm

[upi402]

215. lol @ oswald acting alone

:eyes:

[TheKentuckian]

219. LBJ, the CIA, and the mob

has always been the mix I felt was in on it t o varying degrees.