The Cold Hard Math of Weight Gain

[The Doctor.]

Well, it seems that there’s been another popular flame-thrower topic on DU these days. I have no illusions that I can put the issue to rest, but if I can shed some light on the issue, maybe fewer people will wind up at each-other’s throats or even tombstoned over this. Maybe this can even help a few folks.

First; to those who believe that obesity is just a ‘character flaw’ or even a ‘lifestyle choice’; it’s nowhere near that simple.

Obesity is not merely a ‘choice’. It’s not like walking into the video store and choosing one movie over another. It’s a difficult and horrible condition that generally exacerbates depression that, in turn, often results in further over-eating. Often this is originated by a medical condition or improper childhood nutrition... not the fault of the person. This vicious cycle is as hard to break as adamantium for most people. What’s worse, is the way that obese or even just heavy people are treated in society. Every look is a character judgment. Few people go out of their way to help you if you’re heavy. If you’re obese in this society, you’re often treated as a second-class citizen.

How much more depression and rejection can society dump on a person?

The uphill struggle is terrible, and many of us should be quite thankful that we don’t have to fight that one. We were lucky for any of a number of reasons; no genetic or medical disorders, raised to eat healthy, started and stayed with sports most of our lives, and never suffered a traumatic event and sank into a psychological quagmire wherein food was the only solace.

Those who are obese deserve encouragement, not ridicule or judgment. The latter just doesn’t help.

Now, here are the facts;

The body cannot, under any circumstance, create matter from nothing, nor can it function without utilizing a certain amount of energy from what we consume. The body cannot turn 2000 calories of food into a pound of fat. (A pound of fat contains about 3500 calories)

It simply cannot happen.

The body also cannot function without utilizing calories. Anyone who lives burns calories in proportion to their overall mass adjusted for lean/adipose variation, gender, age, and adverse medical conditions. No medical condition, of any kind, can reduce calorie utilization to 0... except death. No medical condition exists that can reduce calorie utilization to so low a point that only starvation will result in weight loss.
It is a fact that the more massive the individual, the more calories they will burn just sitting in a chair.

In another life, I worked as a weight management specialist and fitness trainer with many people who claimed that they 'couldn't lose weight even if they ate 'barely anything''. But once I spent the day going over their entire diet with them, we found, invariably, that they were well over the level of intake they thought they were at. Every time. The main reason they thought they weren't eating so much is because they were often just hungry all the time. That tends to indicate choosing high glycemic foods, and eating at poorly timed intervals.

One gains adipose mass when the number of calories taken in exceeds the number utilized. The more you weigh, the higher your basal metabolism. Yes every pound of fat utilizes 3 cal/day... that's not much compared to the 14 cal/day of lean mass, but an extra 100 pounds of fat raises the basal rate by 300 cal/day.


The Mufflin equation for RMR is considered fairly accurate:

* For men: (10 x w) + (6.25 x h) - (5 x a) + 5
* For women: (10 x w) + (6.25 x h) - (5 x a) - 161

…but having your RMR measured with an RMR device is accurate to within 1% of your actual RMR.

By the math, a 300 lb, 30 year old, 5'6" woman (136 kg, 168 cm.)
Has a Resting Metabolic Rate of 2255.

That means that doing nothing our subject burns 2255 cal/day.

Under even the worst case scenario, even severe hypothyroidism, ones RMR cannot be reduced by 40%. I have yet to hear of anything that defies this simple physiological fundamental that does not result in death.

Let’s just say that the impossible case is the case, our subject, we’ll call her 'Jane' because she’s a person we all know and love, has a RMR of about 1300. That means that Jane will not gain weight if she takes in no more than 1300 cal/day and engages in moderate exercise. In fact, under those conditions, she will lose weight. That’s 3 300 calorie meals and one 400 calorie meal per day. Very light meals to be sure… but not starvation.

In my other life I personally measured the RMR of nearly a thousand people with a BodyGem. It measures o2 in and out to accurately determine RMR. I've seen some unexpected measurements, but never anything below 1000 cal/day. I've had MANY heavy people tell me I would get a 'low' reading because 'they can't lose weight'.
I've never had a heavy person, with any condition register under 1600. Sure enough, when we restricted and thoroughly monitored their caloric intake... they lost weight.

That’s the bottom line; If you are heavy, you likely have a higher RMR than a lighter person. That means that it really is a matter of watching your intake and getting what activity in that you can.

I never recommend doing anything based on what you read on an internet discussion board. Do some research, consult a professional, and make good choices. Just knowing your RMR and getting into counting calories can make a huge difference. Understanding the Glycemic Index, nutrition, and the importance of proper macro-nutrition (protein, carbohydrate, fat) can only help as well.

The first, and sometimes hardest step, however, is finding a way to really love yourself after so many years or decades of mistreatment and low self-esteem. We always help the ones we love… so once you love yourself, there’s a better chance you’ll take care of yourself.

After all, we want good, conscientious people to be around as long as we can keep them here.


Glycemic index;
http://www.glycemicindex.com/

List of foods by GI;
http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm
(not all of them)

Macronutrients;
http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/handouts/macronutrients.htm

RMR Calculator;
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calrmr.php


As this isn’t an attempt at a flame thread (however else it may turn out), I have no idea if enough people will see it. So if you do read it, and you’re sick of the flaming give it a K+R

[sudopod]

1. bamp

[fed_up_mother]

35. As someone who battles my weight, I understand that it's complicated; however,

this nation is getting fatter and fatter. And that is because we are eating more and more.

Yeah, it's very complicated, but it's also that simple!

[The Doctor.]

54. Yes,

More of the wrong things, and with less time and resources to do everything right.

[bertman]

202. There are still 24 hours in a day just like 50 years ago when we were not an overweight nation.

It's about the choices we make. You choose to exercise or watch TV. You choose to drink soda instead of water. You choose to eat cookies for snacks instead of fruit. You choose to ride in your car instead of walking or biking. You choose to participate in activities that do not give you the healthful lifestyle that you need. You choose to eat more than you need to eat. Habits. Bad habits.

There are certainly some of us who are obese for other reasons, but most of us are making very poor choices--whether we are knowledgeable or properly raised or whatever you want to call it.

Some of us even choose to blog instead of exercising. Hmmm.

[Dorian Gray]

227. And some of us can

both blog AND exercise!

I think that weight is often born out of choices, but there are also other issues that are involved for many people. It took me a LONG time to be mentally capable of losing the 55 lbs. that I lost. I was overweight, unhappy with myself (not everyone is), sedentary, and felt like it was hopeless. Now I have 20 more lbs. to go before I hit my goal, and I never thought I'd get here.

It was about making healthy choices for me, but that was in conjunction with forcing myself to learn better habits and unlearn horribly ingrained bad behaviors. It's HARD! It's a little more than a simple choice. There are mental blocks to losing weight. There are emotional blocks. There are health blocks. They CAN be overcome, but it's not as simple as ONE choice. There are years of ingrained behaviors, health and emotional issues that many people have to battle in order to do so.

And then there are those who are quite happy with their weight and lifestyle. Who are we to judge?

[OmahaBlueDog]

2. Is this DU? I swear it's become like WebMD or the WeightWatchers website.

Can't we go back to hating Republicans, regardless of body mass index?

[The Doctor.]

3. It's a big place.

And since I hadn't seen a thread like this, I made one.

[FREEWILL56]

203. I see nothing wrong in your making this thread

and I thank you for doing so. I am still taking in all of the info you have provided and the links. I would like to see more about the diabetes aspect and how it relates to those things or maybe I just didn't piece enough of it together as of yet.
If DU can address money, energy, guns, etc. then why not health issues too? Politics has been involved in health issues and I would guess that individual that you responded to would discuss things in such a narrow prospective that it would lose something. In other words for example you can talk about gun regulations, but don't talk about the differences in guns, how they work, or any other aspects of the subject.
Politics touches on all aspects and subjects in life so there aren't any boundaries DU should be set to that that other poster says should be limited. It just doesn't always have to be a soapbox or a soap opera. If this subject does not fit their fancy then move on I say. That person probably never learned how to change the channel on their tv let alone know how to shut it off as this is the same thing, you don't like it then shut it off or move on. I don't go to subjects that I don't like and I don't watch things on tv that I don't like.:freak:

[rucognizant]

222. Absolutely!

The FOOD we eat is VERY POLITICAL! The BIG FOOD CORPS are mixng up these unhealthy concoctions...........with ingredients that make us want MORE......in their little scientific laboratories................HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP DEADLY! IN ALMOST EVERYTHING!
Growing up with a RN dietitian Mother in the Garden State, limited sugar for my first 6 years...( due to rationing during the war) I began life with a very good diet. Large bone structure, high energy, genetic tendancy to gain.......I always had to watch my weight, was a gourmet cook, had a drop dead figure..........until political situation, caused lack of funds, in my 50's..ongoing depressing loss of ability to run my small business ( my intellectual exercise!) and more time spent on survival instead of gain through hard work,.................
Led to eating more prepared foods, from a can, less time and money to spend on diet...............( and difficulty with getting the right thyroid replacement dose) led to a 30 40 lb weight gain, in my 60's...........Now pre-diabetic blood sugar condition, ( NO HISTORY of diabetes in the family) discovered. SO I stopped buying ANY PRODUCT IN THE MARKET WITH HFCS! tomato soup,( almost EVERY commecial soup contains HFCS check the labels!) BREAD ( I make my own), NO SWEETS, told the Schwann driver not to stop with ice cream anymore. etc etc ect! At first I had the most hideous cravings for food! THAT"S WHY THEY PUT IT IN FOOD!
I NEVER had that kind of craving for food in my life! WHen dieting I would do a hypoglycemic routine picked up from a friend, nuts and dried fruits, at frequent intervals di=uring the day....... cup o soup!! One envelope of soup, a cup and hot water ( most convenience stores have a hot water tap) Add packagedpeanut butter crackers, and you are good to go...........( I traveled a lot by car in my work) Now they are pushing Ramen noodles............You have to be at home with a stove and a pan that then needs washing.........cup o soup is nwo hard to find and who knows it probably contains HFCS too.
I used to eat fish at least twice a week..........WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF FISH IN THE OCEAN IT'S BECOMING A RICH MAN'S DISH! Flounder used to be what I bought when the food budget was low, back in the 60's.............. can't buy flounder to save my soul and I live in a fishing village on the Atlantic Ocean. Can't afford haddock either!
Rev SUn Moon owns the biggest seafood distributership in the country folks!
GOOD DIET begins with politics! Fight for higher ( fair ) wages first........then overisight of what goes in to processed food!

[JDPriestly]

34. We're re-entering the earthly atmosphere after having spent years

in Bush limbo worrying about politics. We are all rediscovering life and all its problems are replacing the political ones. It's a good sign. It means so far Obama is not botching things too terribly for DUers.

[The Doctor.]

51. Been snickering over that too.

Don't want to become too complacent just yet though.

[Hekate]

42. Surprising what one can learn here though. I never knew to read labels for high fructose corn syrup

That's been a revelation, I can tell you.

Hekate

[The Doctor.]

49. Oh.... that and the 'servings per container' is very revealing.

"Contains 12 fluid ounces"
Calories per serving - 50 (sounds great so far!)
Fat per serving - 2g (not bad!)
Sodium - 20mg (looking good)
Servings per container - 12

Funny, the FDA ruled that if 'a serving contains less than one-half gram of fat, it can be labeled as 'fat free''.

Result - "Fat free cooking spray" - one serving; .5g (that includes flavoring)

Modern labeling is a wonderful thing... just not perfect yet.

[CoffeeCat]

133. I agree that a serving size can be misleading...

Ice Cream...who sits down and eats 1/2 cup, which is the serving size on most ice-cream containers?

Cereal is another one. 3/4 cup is not very much. Most people at a bowl of cereal and it's not unusual
to double or triple that amount.

[ginnyinWI]

209. I do, now that I have to watch my blood sugar.

It's a half cup or nothing. So I have my half cup of low-fat ice cream, sometimes with a sprinkle of chopped nuts. I've learned to enjoy smaller portions--it can be done. The tricky part is to determine your own portion size without letting the package, or the size of your bowl, or the restaurant, or who you are eating with, or who cooked the meal for you decide how much you are going to eat. Naturally thin people do this all the time and still enjoy their lives. Once you get used to less food you don't miss it or get hungry for it. I can always fill up on the healthy stuff when I'm truly hungry.

Cold cereal is the same thing; I usually put just a 1/2 or 1/4 cup of as a topping on a small dish of plain yogurt along with a teaspoon of low-sugar preserves.

[lildreamer316]

83. OMG, do you know how much weight I've lost just by cutting that out??

It's amazing what that did to my body.

[NikolaC]

109. True

That and completely eliminating all soda has been helping a bit with the weight loss. I usually drink flavored seltzer to help with my soda cravings, I was a big addict.

[Hekate]

140. When my son was little I used to have to read labels for wheat; never noticed much HFCS then....

That was some 25 years ago. As soon as I was clued in to start checking for HFCS by DU I was shocked -- it is just about everywhere now. I thought about buying some boxed stuffing the other day, but put it back on the shelf as soon as I read the ingredients.

Hekate

[trickyguy]

200. Yeah, what gives? Homeless dogs and overweight people are not

what I expect to hear from at DU. I thought this was a political forum.

Hey, I like dogs but I don't have one.

I'm not overweight but I might be.

But give me a political bone to chew on would you?:+

[rucognizant]

223. trickyguy...........

FOOD IS POLITICAL!
I live 2 hours from St. Stevens, Canada. My friends & I go up there once in a while to shop for groceries...............In Maine there are all these FAT PEOPLE, across the border........in the grocery store in the BEST BAKERY AROUND, breads FAR SUPERIOR TO MAINE"S, the Canadians are almost all SLIM!
Their food regulations are MUCH better than ours. Campbell's soup made in Toronto, DOES NOT contain HFCS!
The contrast is truly remarkable!

[Lars39]

4. Heard this the other day on NPR....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95900616

[The Doctor.]

8. Cool.

For a while we've known that bacteria play a role in digestion... just not which and how.

[onlyadream]

127. Wow that was really interesting!

[undeterred]

5. Math made fun.

[petronius]

28. A one radian rotation around the z axis would make math a lot more fun

:)

[bongbong]

116. Slightly off

I think you meant PI radians.

Math IS easy if you think in terms of PIE!

[petronius]

176. You're right, I neglected the pie factor

Still, even a bit of side-boob would make math more interesting... ;)

[The Doctor.]

144. You mean...

180º ?

[petronius]

178. That's what I meant - I tried to be all clever and stuff and ended up flunking

Oops...

:)

[TrogL]

115. Maybe if it'd been presented like that I wouldn't have flunked linear algebra

(chick on the far left). I'm not sure what the others are representing.

When I took linear algrebra, the prof droned on and on, there was no textbook, the course notes didn't match what he was saying, I missed three lectures with the flu, when I got back he was talking pure gibberish and when I saw him in his office, refused to help bringing me up to speed.

Given that I needed that course to complete a computing science degree, I dropped out and got a certificate instead. It's kept me employed for 20 years and counting.

[Lucky Luciano]

125. A little Lie Group/Physics nonsense!

[Why Syzygy]

6. Sumo wrestlers skip breakfast. Short route to obesity.

[The Doctor.]

12. Yep...

25% metabolic reduction.

I tell people who 'don't have time' for breakfast; "One 20 second glass of low fat (not skim) milk".

What a difference it makes.

[TexasObserver]

79. Why low fat, instead of skim, milk?

[Recursion]

80. Skim milk is basically devoid of nutrition

The point of drinking milk is to get *some* fat. If you have *some* fat in the morning your metabolism runs much better all day. Plus it's easier not to snack.

[TexasObserver]

131. So is Diet Coke, but I drink a ton of that!

Fat in the morning? I think I manage to get some of that without having it in my milk.

I think skim milk tastes better than milk with fat in it.

[Sequoia]

154. No diet drinks or skim milk for me.

That junk in diet drinks is bad for you.

[Recursion]

172. See, fats actually make you feel full

That's the danger of "lowfat" or "nonfat" substitutes for fats: you wind up eating much, much more. If you slather butter on your bread, you're going to feel full much more quickly, and end up eating less (this, incidentally, is the main success of the "Atkins" and other high-fat, low-carb diets: you really can't eat very much natural fat and protein before your body says "I'm done" -- try to get through a whole plate full of bacon some time. They're actually calorie restriction by another name, with the added benefit that natural fats are pretty good for you, at least compared to processed ones).

[Dorian Gray]

229. That is untrue for me

If I have a piece of bread without butter, I usually have a half a piece or maybe one. If, however, I have sweet sweet delicious butter to put on the bread, I'll have four pieces. I love buttered bread. So I cut it out of my diet. Who needs four pieces of bread at a restaurant before you have a meal. (But I agree, it's more filling with the butter. But it's a trigger food for me!)

[FREEWILL56]

256. Butter never did much for me as far as being a trigger food

at least until I tried whipped Cinnamon butter. OMG that's good. It's a real good thing I don't get to that restaurant but once every few months or so. Everybody does have their trigger food though and mine is pizza fully loaded with a variety of toppings. Now I won't do without it, but I do cut back with the frequency and quantity as I have to for weight control as well as my type II diabetes.

[The Doctor.]

145. Ding Ding!

:D

[Ms. Toad]

164. Skim milk has essentially the same nutrition as low fat milk

The only substantive difference is the fat content.

As to whether having fat (or anything else) in the morning is helpful or not depends on the individual.

It is far more important to discover how your body and mind react to foods than to blindly follow a rule.

When I eat either sugar or fat it triggers cravings - sugar more so than fat, but both make it harder for me to control what I consume. Starting the day consuming either fat or sugar would spell disaster for me. When I eat fat, I do it later in the day so there are fewer hours to consume whatever the fat triggers a craving for during the at risk period it triggers. High fiber carbs, on the other hand, make me feel satisfied and I am less likely to be tempted to eat additional snacks. I start my day with a large plain slice of homemade 10 grain bread (2-300 calories).

As for eating in the morning, for me eating in the morning is a recent habit. For most of my life, eating before noon just made me groggy. The grog seems to have gone away, but the changed eating pattern at best has had no impact on my metabolic rate - and at worst has decreased the amount I can eat. The change was necessary because of a lunch ritual I have no control over - the only way I can avoid overeating at the "voluntary" office lunch is to have had some largish quantity of high fiber carb within the couple of hours preceding it. The change is a necessary evil because it makes it easier to control what I put in my mouth at lunch, even though eating in the morning seems to have decreased by 1-200 calories the amount I can eat in a day without gaining weight.

If having some fat in the morning makes it easier for you to not snack, more power to you - but it is not something which every one's body/mind reacts to in the same way. Keep a food diary. Note when you are feeling hungry, note when you snack even when you have made up your mind at the beginning of the day to "be good" for the day. Look for patterns of what you are eating on the days it is hardest to control what you eat, and try cutting those things out.

Yes, it is a matter of simple physics - you cannot create matter (body fat) out of nothing. But - how much matter it takes to run your body and not have extra to store as fat for later (and how easy it is to avoid eating more than what it takes to run your body) depends on a lot of different emotional, medication-related, metabolism, food triggers, amount burned moving, etc. factors.

I conquered the big emotional factor that made me feel a lot physically safer when I was obese 10 years ago, when I lost a significant amount of weight and got hit between the eyes with the sudden realization of why I wanted to be fat. (I lost 65 lbs - which I kept off for 5 years). After a 5 year creep back up, it's now gone again (50 lbs this time) and I'm fighting working in a place with an unhealthy fixation on food - which made it all too easy to revert to 20+ years of bad eating habits. If I - personally - took the advice to drink low fat milk in the morning, I'd be packing it back on in no time.

[Recursion]

168. Ummm...

The only substantive difference is the fat content.

Right... the fat being the nutritionally important part of milk.

[Ms. Toad]

173. Not really.

Milk is a significant source of protein, vitamins (A and D, for starters), and calcium. Given the recommendation that fat should be consumed only sparingly, the fat content is hardly the nutritionally important part of milk.

[Recursion]

174. Who gave you that recommendation?

Fat is a crucial part of your diet. Processed fats should be consumed sparingly, sure.

I'll grant the calcium part, sure. But the vitamins? You can't even absorb vitamins in the absence of fat intake; that's why people on a no-fat diet will get scurvy even if they drink straight lemon juice.

[Ms. Toad]

184. Minimal intake of fat has been part of both the old

and the new nutrition pyramids/tables at least since I was a child in the 70s. Here are the most recent two examples: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/daily/graphics/diet_042005.html . The pyramids vary depending on other dietary restrictions - such as vegetarian, vegan, diabetic, etc., but one thing they all have in common is the recommendation to significantly limit your intake of fats and sugars. More recently they have added additional limitations within the general "eat sparingly" recommendation, but no one with solid nutritional training has ever suggested you should eat as much as you want. (And no, Robert Atkins did not have solid nutritional training - and his own heart attack, congestive heart failure, and hypertension should suggest to you that his advice was not terribly sound).

FWIW, milk fat is one of the kinds of fats you should be avoiding. It is the same fat that butter is made from - a fat which is solid at room temperature. Bad for your overall and bad cholesterol, as is bacon fat which I believe you recommended to someone else in another post. Whether a particular fat is part of a nutritionally sound diet has little to do with how much it is processed - in most instances it has to do with the source of the fat; as a general rule, plant fats are better for you and animal fats are worse - except for fish oils.

As to your suggestion about scurvy - you might want to do a little basic nutritional research. Vitamin C is a water soluble vitamin, not a fat soluble one. Failure to consume fat with vitamin C has no impact whether or not you acquire scurvy.

[Dorian Gray]

230. I drink skim milk

but I'm sure to get my fats from my daily almonds, avocado, Cheese, or Olive Oil.

[Scout]

14. thanks ... it's not just total calories, but when you eat them

and what they are.

I'm not going to lose weight eating 1200 calories of chocolate once a day.

I've recently discovered that i MUST eat in the morning, and then 3 smaller meals through the day.

[JDPriestly]

36. I snack a lot on fruit during the day. It gives me sugar but not too many calories

at a time.

[tbyg52]

22. True, true.

Still doesn't mean people should prescribe, unasked, for other people. (Says a fat person who always eats breakfast because I feel ill if I don't.... ;))

[Why Syzygy]

32. I have weight fluctuations

of 20 pounds every few years. I can put it on and take it off in a matter of weeks. But, I'm never aware of any change in eating habits. I think there are a lot of issues involved. I always feel great when I have the discipline to eat "high" protein (actually very low carb). I drop weight in all the right places and have tons of energy. It's the DISCIPLINE I seek :D

I missed the other threads too. There are a lot of things involved in weight management, and if someone knows so much, they should write a book.

[tbyg52]

91. >>It's the DISCIPLINE I seek

Oh yeah. If I had the money to hire a personal chef and trainer, I'd be skinny.... ;)

[The Doctor.]

143. Yep...

if only we could all have aids.

Gosh I hope you got that reference... it'd be a bitch to explain.

[tbyg52]

244. Nope, but don't feel obligated to explain it..... ;->

[grannylib]

55. That's my biggest downfall...and I'm not terribly overweight

(5'5.5", 130 lbs) but I know I'd have an easier time losing the flab around my middle if I'd eat some breakfast. It's not a time factor, I'm just not HUNGRY in the morning. I'm often not hungry at lunchtime either, so I usually don't eat until supper, and then I graze until midnight *sigh* Terrible habit, I know...

[demokatgurrl]

81. Wow, and therein lies ONE problem

at 5'5" and 130 lbs you consider yourself "not TERRIBLY overweight"? Do you consider yourself a "tad overweight"? Because quite frankly, I'm 5'6" and do not consider myself AT ALL overweight, and envision you as being a "tad underweight".

The weight obsession in this country- and spreading- truly dismays me.

[verdalaven]

171. 5'5 and 135lbs is what I call the good ol' days

and I used to hate my body, I thought I was so fat. No matter how hard I tried, I could never get my abs to into six-pack formation.

Now, twenty years and (censored) pounds heavier, I not only have a six pack, I have a keg.

[faithfulcitizen]

207. I could have written your post. Sad...but I'm going to keep trying.

[chatnoir]

149. "Not terrribly overweight"? :)

Wow, 5'5.5" and 130 is not overweight at all.

I'm that height and if I go below that weight I look positively skeletal. Of course every frame and physique is different but there's sth wrong with a society where a slender woman of that height/weight is made to see herself as overweight at all.

[Binka]

265. Do NOT EAT LATE AT NIGHT

If you do not wake up staving in the morning you have eaten way too much the night before. Your eating clock needs to be reset. I am going to be 50 on Valentines Day and I am 5-9 128 lbs. I eat right and light and NEVER at night. Plus I walk 35 miles a week. Exercise is key too.

[eridani]

61. They do more than that--they engage in extended fasting

Helps them gain weight a lot faster when they resume eating.

[rucognizant]

234. You betcha!

I had thyroid surgery at 42. Weighed 133 lb afterward. ( 5'8"tall, and looked nice and thin.) On .2mgr. of synthroid to replace the lost hormones...............
6-12 months later I went through extensive tooth capping process...............was allowed NO SUGAR for the duration.( I made my own wheat thins without sugar, mmmn good, if anyone has a recipe pls pass it on, I got it in the library and can't find it now) Was dating and going out to dinner to the fanciest restaurants....eating creamed soups & baked potatoes because I couldn't chew solid foods!
That year set the bar for my metabolism low, and it has never gone back up, so I gain weight more easily!

[DemReadingDU]

7. Interesting calculators

Somehow I missed all those other threads

:P

[Journeyman]

9. Thanks. . .

k & r. . .

[cosmik debris]

10. I know this to be a fact

It is none of my goddamn business why someone is over weight, and it is fucking rude to criticize people who have health issues that are none of my goddamn business.

Period.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. Seems to me there are two basic possible assumptions

a) it's the result of a disease
b) it's the result of a behavioral choice

One wouldn't consider it rude to discuss and recommend proven therapies and treatments which can mitigate, say, cancer or heart disease.

In contrast, it might be considered rude to criticize people about their behavioral choices. Given that, is it fair to say that you have concluded that your assumption is b)?

When someone complains to me about their own weight, I give what advice I can that can help. Promoting the fantasy that the math in the OP is inaccurate does not qualify as help.

[wildflower]

30. Actually, I thought medical advice wasn't allowed here

I'm responding to your sentence "One wouldn't consider it rude to discuss and recommend proven therapies and treatments which can mitigate, say, cancer or heart disease." I think discussion is okay, but not recommending.

ON EDIT: I just checked and the rules say not to post questions asking for medical advice, though I couldn't find anywhere it says not to give medical advice. But I thought that was technically against the rules.

[Why Syzygy]

45. lol .. nice catch

on your edit. A fine point worth noting. In some forums @ DU I always give my medical/legal disclaimers. :D That's important even if DU doesn't require it.

[The Doctor.]

52. ....

"I never recommend doing anything based on what you read on an internet discussion board. Do some research, consult a professional, and make good choices."

Cheers.

:hi:

[The Doctor.]

46. Usually, if someone DOES ask for advice...

First I tell them not to seek advice from strangers on the internet no matter how credible they sound. Then I tell them that I'm not a medical doctor, and I can't give medical advice.
Also, I'm not a registered dietician, so I can't prescribe a diet.

I can, however, post information for no specific individual that relates to general health and fitness.

This OP doesn't much constitute 'medical advice' at least in that way... among others.

[Bluenorthwest]

101. If you are asked for your thoughts on anothers health

then it is not rude to discuss it. If you are not asked, it most certainly is rude. That goes for all health issues.

[cosmik debris]

104. Apparently you never worked in the health care industry

If you did, you must have been a lousy practitioner.

[JDPriestly]

37. That is generally true, but if someone posts about their health

issues in a blog that is anonymous, it's OK to comment. A post is an invitation to comment. I have often posted about a problem (usually a technical problem with the internet) and greatly appreciated the comments and advice. You don't post unless you want input.

[elshiva]

38. Thank you.

:applause:

[readmoreoften]

75. Thank you. Let's leave medical advice and criticism to the real doctors, not doctor avatars.

[The Doctor.]

181. You mean 'medical advice' like "learn your RMR"?

If you think this constitutes 'medical advice', then perhaps it is you who should find a 'real doctor'.

[bunkerbuster1]

100. um, and?

Your point?

[Egalitariat]

226. It's my business when they spill over into my seat or raise my cost of insurance

[progressive_realist]

11. K & R

Because there may be many proximate causes for obesity, but ultimately it always boils down to a function of inputs and outputs.

[sandnsea]

13. And if your TSH is 92

then everything you just wrote is right out the window. And there are many many people out there, particularly women, whose thyroid is out of whack and they don't know it.

[The Doctor.]

20. Well... aside from the fact that your dead...

It's not settled as to how reliable an indicator that is. As I mentioned in the OP; even serious hypothyroidism doesn't bring one's metabolism to so low a level that only starvation will create weight loss.

A functioning body burns calories, even a poorly functioning one. Only a dead one doesn't.

[uppityperson]

24. TSH of 92 doesn't mean you are dead. Yet.

1/3 people in USA have an under functioning thyroid, anyone who has carpal tunnel, depression, fibromyalgia (or symptoms of those) should be tested since hypothyroid can mimic all of those/cause all of those/set you up to have all of those.

TSH of 92 is high, but no, not dead. Mine got up to 350 before they decided my thyroid had been nuked dead enough to give me replacement.

[The Doctor.]

26. Wow. 100 is considered 'extremely high'.

Never had to take endocrinology, but from what I understand if your thyroid isn't absorbing TSH at all you're having very serious problems. A TSH that high means 'no thyroid'.

I'll have to study up on the persistence of it, I didn't know the levels could even get that high.

[bluedawg12]

41. TSH Levels are high when the end organ the thyroid

is not producing thyroid hormones.

TSH is like ringing the door bell louder and louder when no one answers. It reflects an attempt to stimulate the thyroid which is unable to respond.

[The Doctor.]

56. Right.

It means TSH isn't being absorbed. I'm curious to know what it's persistence and breakdown rate is. Just one of many millions of factoids I was never aware of... but would like to be moreso.

[uppityperson]

50. It got to 350. As I said, I got my thyroid nuked.

It was miniscule, then went up slowly, finally zoomed. My thyroid was dead. Very dead. It was telling my thyroid to do its thing, but no thyroid left. I was cold.

[Why Syzygy]

48. gosh

I have all three. My former doctor diagnosed "low" thyroid. Most doctors believe it in the "normal" range. He gave me a copy of an article. The synthroid didn't agree with me. Made me feel much worse. I wish I could try the natural form. I don't have adequate health care to even explore that option.

I did resolve the carpel tunnel on my own, by changing my wrist positions every night before falling asleep. I make sure that my wrists are straight, not curled up into fetal hands. You ever notice how a lot of people still curl their wrists at night?

[Dorian Gray]

82. My blood work showed

early markers for Hashimoto disease (hypothryroidism). It's something that I need to keep an eye on, but it's nothing that is so dangerous now that I need to medicate for it. I've also managed to lose some weight, so that will be helpful in the condition. My mother had the opposite, Graves, so it does run in the family. Though I wish that I had the predisposition to an OVERACTIVE thyroid! It would be much much better! :)

Tammie

[sandnsea]

25. I'm alive and I'll send you my numbers

I've lost 50 lbs in the last 2 years, since I've been diagnosed and gotten my medication right. I can walk down the street again, without feeling like I was going to collapse after a block. You have no idea. I can feel the difference between 1 and 4. I saw a doctor for an infected finger and I am so grateful she convinced me to get some blood work done. And I am grateful for my current doctor who listens and when I don't feel well, she does tests no matter how recently they've been done.

[The Doctor.]

27. 1 and 4 are at opposite ends of the 'normal range'.

It's pretty cool that you can tell that.

[gkhouston]

130. What's cool is having a doctor that *understands* it matters whether you're at a

1 or a 4 if you're a person who can tell the difference. They're not so easy to come by.

[uppityperson]

53. My tsh is below normal range, yet free t3/t4 are also low.

At one point I was severely hypothyroid (wasn't absorbing a certain brand). Low temp, low pulse, could hardly think, could barely move. Talking was interesting. I had to think, then think again, then figure out what to say, then try to figure how to make my mouth move.

Got blood drawn, TSH was in normal limits. But the doc was smart enough to change my meds, otherwise I figure I'd have been in ER in another couple days. Doc was amazed since bloodwork showed me still normal, just hadn't caught up yet.

There is a HUGE difference between a 1 and a 4. Some national laboratory group wanted to change tsh norms down in the last couple yrs as the old "standard" has been proven to be wrong.

[morillon]

163. I really need to get myself a new endo.

I'm on both Synthroid and Cytomel, but I still have symptoms. My usual endo runs this factory kind of operation where he's always overbooked and you can only get in to see the nurse practitioners. The one time I managed to get an appointment with him (and I had to schedule FIVE months in advance), he was running more than three hours late, and I eventually had to go back to work without seeing him.

If anybody has recs for endocrinologists in the Atlanta area, PM me. I'd really appreciate it.

[uppityperson]

198. pm sent but here is a list of some top docs for thyroid issues

http://www.thyroid-info.com/topdrs/georgia.htm
The one I want to go to is on there, but my insurance doesn't cover him. I have gotten close to saying f* it and just paying.

[Missy Vixen]

135. I had a TSH of 75 when I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism

It's not as unusual as you might think.

Julie

[Mari333]

31. heh. I had a goiter when I was 12.

that was decades ago. They gave me radioactive thyroid treatments, then told me to 'watch out for my thyroid when I hit over 40'.
oddly, I remembered their advice.
Well, at 45, there it went, kaboom. no thyroid. it just stopped. I gained like only 20 lbs, but I have been skinny all my life so I was shocked. I am on synthroid, and lost the 20 lbs in no time flat.
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, get your thyroids checked. If your thyroid goes, it screws everything else up . Your metabolism goes crazy.
Havent had a problem with any weight gain on the synthroid.

[Blue_In_AK]

266. I found out that my TSH was 48 a few years ago...

The doctor said I should be feeling terrible, but I had so much other stress in my life at the time I didn't even notice. I've got the levels right now, but I still can't seem to lose the 30 pounds I gained.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Thanks for posting this)

as a person with ahem weight issues I know where this comes from

Yes, I have been able to loose over sixty pounds and I am away by twenty of my high "healthy weight"

So seen this treatment of the obese first hand

I also blame though our society... and hyperabundance

By the way... if I don't loose no more I am happy

:-)

[kstewart33]

16. You've reduced everything to a simple truth.

To lose weight, you have to reduce your intake and increase exercise.
It's that simple.

It seems to me that obese people are like alcoholics and drug addicts. They have an addiction by lifestyle choice and/or physical condition (having a brain disorder that constantly sends hunger signals). For alcoholics, alcoholism is by choice often compounded by a genetic vulnerability to physically becoming an alcoholic (on this I am an expert of sorts with two brother who are advanced alcoholics).

Addicts of all kinds, once exposed as such, are treated as second class citizens regardless of the type of addiction. Obese people deserve no special consideration, extra kindness or understanding relative to drug addicts and alcoholics because like other addicts, they are slowly killing themselves and refuse or are unable to solve their problem.

All addicts benefit from kindness but much, much more must come from within the addict to solve the problem.

[KitSileya]

114. There is one huge difference.

Even if some obese people are addicted to food the same way drug addicts are addicted to drugs and alcoholics to alcohol, ther is one huge difference. The latter can go cold turkey, and never touch the addicting stuff again. People who are addicted to food (and I don't agree with you that all obese people are) cannot lay off the food the same way.

Personally, I think that there are many, many reasons why people are obese. I do think that there are many factors obese people control themselves, but there are also many factors they don't. In some cases, disease and conditions have caused obesity, but I do believe that in most cases, it's diet. But diet too, is controlled by many factors, and some aren't in the control of the person - if you are dependent on cheap, easy food because you are living on subsistence wages and don't have a kitchen/car/fridge/freezer to help with sensible meal planning, you will eat unhealthy food.

Or you can be like 5'3", 180lbs me, whose weight is entirely her own fault because she's made the choice rather to eat chocolate for dinner than make proper food for one.

[TrogL]

118. Since when is alcoholism a choice?

...if there's a genetic component?

I was adopted and hence had no family medical information other than "no problems". Unfortunately, this was the 1950's when alcoholism was considered standard operating procedure.

I was addicted after my first major drinking spree (1/2 litre of gin) but didn't realize it until years later.

[islandmkl]

17. thanks for the links...

i used to hear Dr. Ann de Wees Allen every several months on a sports talk radio station in Tampa...she is not only extremely knowledgeable in this area, but a very entertaining presenter of the facts....

[Blue Diadem]

18. Thanks Dr. Eldrich

I think you may have helped me more than you know.

[Triana]

21. K & R for good, factual information that doesn't attack anyone and seeks to promote...

...understanding of the facts, (and understanding, period) instead.

Thanks, Dr. Eldritch.

[foo_bar]

39. that's "dr_eldritch" I think

Since I'm not a MD, always consult one first, but I've yet to have one disagree with that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2320813&mesg_id=2323803

[The Doctor.]

59. That's correct.

I've gone to great lengths to indicate that I'm not a physician... there isn't any other kind of PhD that I'm aware of. ;)

So, is 'foo' your degree?

Or did you actually pass the 'bar'?

[foo_bar]

65. "I'm not a real doctor, but I am a real worm..."

I've gone to great lengths to indicate that I'm not a physician...

After you were called on it, correct.

there isn't any other kind of PhD that I'm aware of.

Of course there are, but "Dr. Eldritch" is a webcomic character, so I thought disclaimers might be in order for the folks interpreting your fitness experience as medical advice (and thanks for providing them upthread).

Absolutely talk to your own physician 1st, but I prefer it to any of the dextromathorphan, narcotic, or barbituate types.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:NPKsS1yzC4gJ:www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php%3Faz%3Dview_all%26address%3D104x3838143

That's "Dextromethorphan" and "barbiturate". You do seem willing to leave people with the impression that the "Dr" in your username represents something other than a fictional protagonist:

From: Dr. Garth Eldritch

<...> I am a registered Republican and I am frightened of this administration.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x195189

In a posting title, "A Message From A Real Republican", thirty-year Republican party member, Dr. Garth Eldritch easily claims the latest "BRAD BLOG Intellectual Honesty Award".

http://www.bradblog.com/?cat=194

Thirty years, huh? Speaking of red flags:

I've never bothered to mention this, but I trained HTH with a guy out of the Rangers. He was recon in 'Nam. One of the things that I'll never get out of my system is the incredible 'high-alert' state that I was always in while training. It's hard to describe, it is all at once a state of alertness, relaxation, paranoia, and energy. It settles into you after only a few weeks of training... and then it's permanent.

Until I nearly split a kid's face open for moving in a way I was 'conditioned' to respond to.

I dropped it after that, or tried. But it's still there, this thing, this 'programming'.

To this day I can still 'sense' so much about those around me. Every motion in a room, every attitude, I can't help it. And if they are trained in real HTH, if they are real killers, they stick out like a bright red flashing light... especially the ones who try to hide it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x942587#945170

So, is 'foo' your degree?

Here: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3092.html

[The Doctor.]

69. You have problems you need to deal with outside of the internet.

Seriously, you've gone very far, and put a great deal of effort into dealing with... what? Some kind of perceived insidious entity?

I understand that typos involving schwas are an immediate indicator of dishonesty, and admitting that you are a registered Republican on a Democratic message board is some type of double-reverse-psychological infiltration device... and obviously the fact that I trained in HtH means I can't be 'intellectually honest'.

My God, you're some sort of mole-sniffing genius!

Seriously... seek help. I really do know people that can do an awful lot for you.

[foo_bar]

77. internet diagnosis or generic advice for living?

Just pointing out some "cold hard" facts, like signing your name "Dr. Garth Eldritch" might lead people to believe you're a doctor of some kind (and not a fictional web persona). I didn't say anything about moles (I suspect they'd be more discreet) but the OP does take a certain pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps approach to the problem (30 years, for real? you became a republican after "'Nam" but before Reagan?), the real problem being that science doesn't possess a complete answer to what goes awry in the neurology or parasympathetic nervous systems of corpulent people who crave or simply eat food beyond their bodies' ability to metabolize it, or perpetually skinny folk who eat like pigs and live sedentary lives yet barely manage the basal caloric requirement for living (that's my anecdote, but smoking doesn't help on the neurotransmitter side if there is one). I'm a computer programmer by trade, not a doctor or somebody who plays one on tv, but your cavalier attitude towards making shit up seems to warrant a tiny asterisk next to the "Dr_" based on our limited exchanges; if I ever signed letters "Dr. Foo Bar" I'd actually welcome a virtual intervention.

and put a great deal of effort into dealing with... what?

Twas my pleasure, I type pretty fast and there's a certain schadenfreudey reward seeing a Chuck Norris wannabe live down his previous internet tough guy clichés (like the part about splitting "a kid's face open" with ninja fu you were "programmed" to do), but I don't have an axe to grind in the obesity wars although you seemed to get more mileage as a presumed doctor than a cartoon character.

[The Doctor.]

139. Wow.

You've made many presumptions in ignorance. I'm not sure what all the hostility is about, but, IIR, I think I called you a jerk for being a jerk once, and you've apparently dedicated a significant amount of time to stalking me all over the internet... even where someone might just use the same name.

Apparently, you're a bigger jerk than I thought.

Oh, and yes, there are people who participate on DBs who have been trained in HtH, and relate experiences about it. I have many. I'm sure some people make shit up, and it's not worth my time to care which you consider me as your apparent 'vendetta' has your mind made up.

You need help... or a girlfriend that doesn't live in Canada.

Don't waste your time on me anymore as I won't be seeing anything from you as of now. I can't believe I bothered to waste this much time on you... I doubt I could convince you to stop being a douchebag.

[foo_bar]

170. I doubt the problem is knowing how to use Google

I'm not sure what all the hostility is about, but<...> You need help... or a girlfriend that doesn't live in Canada

While I appreciate the Fristian tele-diagnosis (by a faux "doctor" no less), my girlfriend lives with me in NY, so it can be helpful not to make stuff up as a last resort (or at the least, provide citations to support what you think you're saying). I mean, are these really the words of an ex-republican?

Yep...

if only we could all have aids.

Gosh I hope you got that reference... it'd be a bitch to explain.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4523883 (this thread)

Haha, wasting syndrome, hope you aren't a quack therapist as well.

you've apparently dedicated a significant amount of time to stalking me all over the internet

Since we've had two online "meetings" in our collective lifetimes, methinks you protest a bit much. Now that you mention "clients" I think I see where you're coming from on the not-a-doctor business (i.e., customers), so I can't blame you for putting the blinders on your Chuck Norris "alertness" mode.

I just found it strange that two people addressed you as "Dr." and you made no effort to correct them, until I pointed out your history of dispensing pseudomedical advice first and the disclaimer of not being qualified to dispense said advice some time later, so I seemed to get something of a disproportionate response to the modest proposition that "dr_eldritch" != "Dr. Eldritch" (even though you called yourself "Dr. Garth Eldritch" on bradblog and DU ("I hear you, I really liked McCain too...He's always been a listener AND a doer." -"Dr. Garth Eldritch" as dr_eldritch))

[bluedawg12]

23. Well done, well researched! K&R

[Coyote_Bandit]

29. I have two small dogs

They are both the same breed but they come from different genetic lines. They are both about the same age. They play and walk together and get about the same amount of exercise. They are both fed the same amount of food at the same time each day. This has been true for years. For a number of years the weight difference between the two dogs was about one half pound. Slowly, one of the dogs started gaining weight. It continued until he had gone from a healthy weight of about 18 pounds to a high of 22.5 pounds - a 25% increase in his body weight. This weight gain took about 2 years - and during this time the doggie was treated to extra walks and playtime and fed a calorie restricted diet in an effort to help him drop some weight. None of which produced any measurable weight loss. His vet was convinced that the doggie was simply getting too many treats. Recently the doggie needed bloodwork for his dentals and the vet discovered that his thyroid levels were so low that the lab simply reported them as less than 0.5 (edit to add that my understanding is that normal is about 2.5). Doggie was placed on thyroid medication and has had his blood levels checked to ascertain that the dosage is correct. Doggie lost 10% of his excess body weight (2.5 pounds) in the first month after being placed on medication. Incidentally, my doggie has better health care than I do. I haven't seen a doctor for any reason in over a decade.

Now let's talk about human economics. I live in one of the most food insecure areas in the nation. This area also has one of the highest rates of obesity. Guess what? People who can barely feed themselves eat what they can afford to buy. Survival becomes more important than nutrition or weight loss. These same folks often lack access to health care, gym memberships, dietary consultants - and the free time to exercise (funny how that happens when one is working multiple low wage jobs). Often they don't know if their cholesterol is high or if they have an underlying medical condition.

A map showing the percentage of obese adults in states across the nation appears to have some correlation to socio-economic status:
http://calorielab.com/news/2008/07/02/fattest-states-2008/

It is one thing to want to own a luxury vehicle. One can know exactly what is required to obtain it - and they can still lack the resources to purchase the vehicle. They can also lack the ability to secure those resources. It is cruel to ridicule and condemn folks who lack the ability to secure the resources to get that luxury vehicle.

Many face both economic challenges and a lack of meaningful access to health care. Any "solution" which ignores that is too simplistic to be useful IMHO. Folks need the knowledge and resources to eat right. They need the time to exercise. Sometimes they need access to trainers and gyms. And they need access to medical, psychological and emotional support.

Just sayin.....

[The Doctor.]

44. Oh, I'm more than aware of these issues.

Actually, and I'm no vet here, when thyroid stimulating hormone levels are high, not low, it's an indication hypothyroidism.

Either way, there's only so low one's metabolic rate can decline before they simply can't function. The body must utilize glucose or it dies. It must utilize enough glucose to maintain all vital functions.

Therefore, there is a baseline metabolic rate at which caloric intake can be set. It is a simple fact that even if that intake is ridiculously low, it will not cause starvation. Sure, it's tricky to get it exactly right without measuring actual RMR, but it certainly can be done.

I'm also well aware that most of the affordable food products with high calorie per dollar values are garbage and often very high on the GI.

It's very true that so many people just haven't the time or resources to do 'everything right', but most people can do a few things better. Knowing your RMR, the GI, and adjusting caloric intake is something anyone with internet access can do... and it's a good start.

[Coyote_Bandit]

63. I'd say that there are very few people -

including folks well within their appropriate weight range - that cannot do a few things better with respect to their diet, exercise and health habits.

Yet we seem to focus on the overweight and obese. We paint their "failure" as a character flaw - while we recognize alcoholism and addiction as a disease. Alcoholics and addicts can forego their chemical of choice. The overweight and obese cannot forego nutrition - and an unhealthy preoccupation with weight and food issues can lead to a number of eating disorders.

I've got no beef with your basic premise. However, it is oversimplified because it does not recognize the additional issues. Because of that it feeds the stereotype that overweight and obese folks lack willpower, are lazy and inactive, and eat copious amounts of inappropriate foods. Certainly in some cases that is absolutely true. But not always. And therein lies the problem.




From Ron Hines, DVM, PhD at:
http://www.2ndchance.info/doghypothyroid.htm

"Laboratory Diagnosis of Hypothyroidism
When I recognize one or more of the signs I have mentioned, I draw blood for thyroid function tests. The blood I remove is often creamy whitish in color due to the presence of large amounts of fats (triglycerides and cholesterol) in the blood of hypothyroid animals. I have the blood analyzed for thyroid hormones (T-4, free T-4 and T-3). I will occasionally also run at thyroglobin autoantibody test to determine if autoimmune thyroid disease is present. Low hormone levels in the absence of signs of other diseases are diagnostic of hypothyroidism. Blood levels of T-4 are normally 1.0-4.0 micrograms/deciliter. Normal levels of T-3 are 45-150 nanograms/decileter and normal levels of Free T-4 are 11-43 picomols/leter. I become suspicious of hypothyroidism when the numbers for T-4 hover about one unit and T-3 and Free T-4 levels are low-normal - even if the lab reports the case as normal. Falsely low thyroid hormone levels can be due to administration of steroids (cortisone) or concurrent systemic disease. A TSH stimulation test can be run if the diagnosis is in doubt."

It would seem that in dogs low thyroid blood levels are indeed indicative of hypothyroidism - and they are often accompanied by high cholesterol levels.

I have no idea how dog thyroid blood levels compare to human thyroid blood levels. But I can't help observing that most medical doctors would rather talk about high cholesterol than thyroid problems. I guess it is always easier to assume that weight issues are behavioral rather than the result of body chemistry, or socio-economic factors, or lack of dietary knowledge, or emotional or psychological factors.

And I haven't even mentioned the social and cultural considerations that work to undermine the weight loss efforts of the overweight and obese.

[The Doctor.]

70. This deserves a better answer than I have the cognizance left for tonight.

But for now, I'll say that 'thyroid levels' are not the same as 'thyroid stimulating hormone' levels.

Oh... and I'm not a vet either. :D

Well, I'll get back tomorrow.

Cheers.

[knitter4democracy]

249. I wish I could nominate this post alone.

Extremely kick-ass points.

[JDPriestly]

33. Excellent information and advice.

[readmoreoften]

76. Actually, it's really shitty advice that can be dangerous for some people's health.

At 1300 calories a day, I have a hard time maintaining let alone losing weight. This thread is an oversimplified crock. And this is coming from someone under the care of a physician who gained weight and lost a lot of $ under people telling me to "eat more because my body was going into starvation mode and it could certainly burn it off."

Thankfully, I'm under the care of a physician now and I keep to 1000 calories a day or less.

[JDPriestly]

111. I am tiny and would gain on 1300 calories a day were it not that

I exercise about 25 minutes to a half hour every day -- and I mean really focus on running -- not fast running, just jogging gently. But the time spent and the regular exercise helps your metabolism provided you are able to do it every day. I find it is best in the morning.

Everyone is different. But if people go to a doctor or someone who can help them review the tests that were suggested, he or she will find the right regime to lose a little weight or at least feel a lot better. It's individual.

[The Doctor.]

148. Understanding macronutrition, the GI, RMR, and consulting a physician is "shitty advice"?

Please do explain how.

I suspect you're just a very angry person. I understand, I am too... I just don't take it out on perceived slights.

[Dorian Gray]

235. Damn!

1000 calories a day?

I'd have constant headaches.

I've been losing while keeping to 1700 a day, but I also exercise daily.

(MY RMR is 1800, so it's pretty active. Add exercise to that, I'm able to slowly lose.)

[Hekate]

40. Another thank you. Knowledge and compassion--a nice package. nt

[JimWis]

43. Thanks for the post. I am going to bookmark it. I had slowly gained

a lot of weight over a 30 year period. Finally tried various diets which never worked. Than I went to a Health Maintenance program under doctor supervision. Drinking the shakes and later eating the prepared meals. 800 to 1,000 calories per day. I lost 80 pounds in 6 months. I followed with a one year maintenance phase. During that year or so, I did put about 20 pounds back on, but have managed to maintain my weight now for close to another year. They did figure out that I did have a somewhat lower metabolism than the average guy. I am 6'2", and 230 lbs. I have to stay between 1500 to 2000 calories per day to maintain. And I do exercise. I appreciate your info - especially about breakfast being important.

I would recommend such a program to others out there who have struggled. In my group alone - we had 100% success. I made a friend there who lost 120 lbs in the 6 months. When we started our first night group meeting, we had to tell a bit about our history and there was a gal who struggled her whole life with being heavy and unhappy about it. - last time I saw her - I about dropped my teeth. She was very thin. And very pleased.

[PBass]

47. The math in the 1st post is undeniable... now here's what has worked for me...

Eliminating starches from my diet: No potatoes, rice, noodles or bread, crackers, chips or cereal.

Keeping carbs low (under 100 grams a day, and close to 50 is even better when possible).

Used to be, I exercised all the time (and I'm not kidding) but I've always been chubby, and my energy level has always been terrible. As I've gotten older, things were only getting worse. But since going low starch/low carb, I've lost 25 pounds, and I feel MUCH better.

GREAT source of information here:

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/

This works for me -- maybe it will work for you too. WHAT you eat is just as important as "how much" you eat.

GOOD LUCK!

[grannylib]

57. One thing that helped me a lot was to use smaller plates and bowls

and to limit my portions. I still eat what I want, but if I want ice cream, I put it in a coffee cup and eat it with a demitasse spoon, instead of in a bowl and a teaspoon. If I want chips, I put some in a little container rather than grab the bag and eat half of it without realizing what I'm doing. And I do drink a lot of water, and try to drink at least an 8 oz. cup before eating. I had gained a lot of weight due to some meds I was on for a long time, and lost 70 pounds in about 18 months with these tips...

[The Doctor.]

60. OMG that's brilliant!

Can't believe I never thought of that!

That, and I'm impressed that someone else knows what a 'demitasse' is... but not surprised since this is DU.

Dang librul bloggers.

[The Doctor.]

58. It's fascinating, really...

From what I gather, it's the glycogen process where your body balances how it uses carbs and protein that determines whether your a 'protein, carb, or fat' utilizer.

There's been a little research on this, but I don't know enough about it. What I do know is that some people's metabolism needs a higher percentage of carbs, and some people's protein.

I've been an opponent of the 'no carb' diets, they're just horribly conceived, but there's merit in limiting intake.

In general, an average diet should be comprised of 50% carbohydrate calories, 25% protein calories, and 25% fat calories. I've found, however, that many people can almost reverse the numbers on the protein and carbs and function very well. Like I said; I don't recommend doing anything just cause someone on the internet said, but from what I've seen, it's always best to find what works for you. There are no cookie-cutter solutions. In your case, you might want to check out the GI and look for better carbohydrate sources.

200-400 calories from carbohydrates is really low... especially if you're working out. You don't want to hinder your glycogen replenishment. But if it works, and you feel great... who am I to say otherwise?

Well done. And thanks!

:hi:

[AllieB]

87. I eat low carb and work out intensely 5-6 days a week.

I have no problem with performance or energy. We don't need carbs to build muscle. We need protein, fat, vitamins and minerals. Carbohydrates drive insulin which drives fat accumulation. It's contradictory to advise to eat carbs to lose fat. Carbs are what causes fat to accumulate in the first place. I think a lot of people have been conditioned to eat carbs thinking that they need them to enhance performance. Many elite athletes follow a low-carb diet, or a diet where they do carb-cycling. Here's an interesting article:

Athletes discover that carboloading doesn't help much
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/5317716/

[The Doctor.]

153. Not so...

You need carbohydrates to create glycogen. It is very important to get some form of carbohydrates during the day. The only time insulin 'drives fat accumulation' is if a) the carbohydrates you're taking in are high-glycemic (absorbed too quickly into the blood stream), or b) if there is not enough activity to maintain glycogen turn over.

If someone exercises regularly, they will diminish glycogen stores, and carbohydrates are utilized to replenish them.
If Someone does not significantly deplete those stores, then you're right.

It's really quite a balancing act.

[Emillereid]

158. You do not need carbohydrates at all -- there are NO essential carbohydrates.

Your body can use protein and fats as substrates for gluconeogenesis from which glycogen can be replenished. Here's a nice little primer on gluconeogenesis:
http://www.tamu.edu/classes/bmiles/lectures/gluconeogenesis.pdf

Yes, I am a nutritionist and do research in this area all the time.I think the best book on the subject of weight, etc. is Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories."

On a personal note when I first began to study nutrition I believed the holy mantra of low fat, high carbs (all complex, whole and healthy; no sugar either)and turned into a fat-making machine. (no, I'm not wierd - research has vindicated my body's reaction.)I never felt more ill in my life; even the lipid numbers were awful, especially the triglycerides Now - I keep my carbs under 40 grams a day and eat them mostly in the form of low-starch veggies. My research has led me to believe that blood sugar and insulin control are much more important than cholesterol levels. I also believe that the human body is more than a calorimeter - the macronutrient mix will determine the hormonal pathway that predominates, which in turn affects fat deposition and metabolism.

[The Doctor.]

161. Well...

It's a complex calorimeter.

I spent years watching people suffer the effects of Atkins. No, there are not 'essential carbohydrates' the way there are essential fatty acids and amino acids, but a no-carb diet is not nutritionally sound. Not all nutrients can be derived from fat and protein.

I'll take an earnest look at anything you have though. Nutrition was not my deepest area of study, so I'm always interested in what anyone with great expertise has to say.

[Emillereid]

169. Well the inuits did just fine on a diet of protein and fat.

But I don't advocate a diet of just protein and fat - I eat low carb veggies in huge amounts - and would dare say I get more vegetables than most. Incredibly nature has accommodated me nicely by packing the most nutrients and other goodies in the low starch vegetables. I have also discovered an incredible bread made by the Julian Bakery of La Jolla , CA - has 12 grams of fiber, 12 grams of protein and only 1 net carb - delicious! I also enjoy nuts, wine, cheese, berries, etc. What I don't indulge in at all is sugar in any form nor any white flour or processed, chemical-laden food industry products usually laden with corn and its by-products and hydrogenated oil.

[The Doctor.]

257. Well, not being Inuit,

I don't have their metabolism.

And I don't really know just how 'fine' they did. What kind of development issues and diseases were they susceptible to?


Your diet sounds too good to be true. I personally bounce in and out of good eating habits... but I keep the activity up.

[Emillereid]

264. The Inuit don't have a different metabolism. The modern Inuit eat the

same crap most Americans do and suffer all the same diseases of civilization including heart disease and cancer. The traditional diet was sea mammals, cold water fish and wild game - much of it eaten raw. Most of their calories came from fat. They experienced little or no heart disease, cancer and were quite lean.

BTW, Atkins allows 20 - 25 grams a day of carbos even during induction.

One of the things that keeps me eating well is that after so many years of not eating processed food-like products I can actually taste the weird chemicals in them -- they simply don't taste right to me anymore.

[AllieB]

185. Atkins isn't 'no-carb'.

The induction phase (2 weeks) of Atkins is very strict but you have to eat 3 cups of vegetables per day during that period, and more during ongoing weight loss. That's way more than the average American diet. I think you harbor some misconceptions about the diet, and should pick up the book and read it. Another good book is 'The Protein Power Life Plan' by Drs. Michael and Mary Dan Eades. Here's a link to their website:

http://www.proteinpower.com/

I eat 50-100 grams of carbs per day. That's plenty to support my active lifestyle. And my bloodwork is perfect, where it wasn't before when I was eating vegetarian or low fat.

[The Doctor.]

196. Wow... when I was dealing with it, it was a 'no carbs until your goal' diet.

It's not the same... and for good reason.

The South Beach Diet was similar, but again, there were NO carbs allowed for the first two weeks. The rest of the diet was fairly sensible.

Today I'm at just under 100 g of carbs, and a game of hacky-sack with my son (holy crap I'm getting old). It's been an overall low-cal day, but I'll have a drink and fill the gap.

Thanks for the links, it's been great to have people jump in and add something constructive.

:thumbsup:

[AllieB]

186. 'Good Calories Bad Calories' is a great (though complex) read.

Like you, I made myself sick with the conventional low-fat/low-cal, then vegetarian diet. The diet pundits (most of them) are coming around to the fact that it's blood sugar and insulin resistance that cause the majority of diseases of civilization. Thanks for chiming in. :toast:

[Hannah Bell]

212. Glycogen is a storage form of glucose. Your body can make glucose

from protein & other non-carbohydrate substrates. So strictly speaking, you don't need carbs to make glycogen, & some groups of traditional people had diets that were pretty much carb free for long stretches of time.

[The Doctor.]

261. Yes, but it takes more energy...

which I've learned it the point.

Unfortunately, the body's water management gets really screwed up.

Less water does not equal better function.

[AllieB]

84. That works for me too, PBass. Steady blood sugar, and I have lots of energy.

I keep my carbs between 50 and 60, and can pretty much eat what I want. It's amazing.

[Connonym]

62. There's something a lot of people are not taking into consideration

Saying eat more and exercise less is the very simplistic thing that keeps getting stated. This is essentially true but what's not being taken into consideration that the caloric requirement for every person is different (as someone on another post stated -- like cars, the MPG varies). For some people, particularly people who have seem to have inherited "the fat gene" metabolic rates are often lower than average. Two people with the same weight and activity level can have different caloric requirements. This is the part that I don't think is being taken into consideration by people who have never been obese -- just because your body requires fewer calories doesn't mean that your appetite reflects that. So it's as simple as cutting calories except it's also as hard as fighting hunger. In some cases fighting hunger on a constant basis. It's awfully difficult to successfully control the hunger urge for long periods of time. This is why most diets fail and why most people who lose weight gain it back. Look at the GD statistics, 95% of people who lose weight regain it. That kind of a failure rate surely indicates that this is not by any means a simple thing to do. The reasons that cause overweight and obesity can range from biological to psychological to environment to behavioral. Anyone who puts it all under the blanket (hateful I think) statement that overweight people are lazy or eat too much or whatever is only looking at a piece of the puzzle.

The ultimate truth here, however, is that this hate filled attitude towards the overweight certainly only makes the problem worse.

[PBass]

68. "It's awfully difficult to successfully control the hunger urge for long periods of time."

It's really not about "being hungry" versus "not being hungry".

You can't possibly eat enough of certain foods, and still gain weight. It's not possible, for most people.

Example: one cup of chopped broccoli has 30 calories. If your total calorie target for the day is 1800 calories (to lose weight) you can eat as much broccoli as you want, and you don't even have to keep track (count it). One cup of broccoli has 5 carbs (that's what I count -- I try to stay under 100 per day).

I'm not suggesting that people only eat broccoli -- please -- but it's part of a good diet where you won't feel hungry. Here's a nice meal that you can lose weight on: Piece of broiled fish/chicken/lean beef, big serving of broccoli, broiled tomato.

Broccoli is one example of food that is high fiber and not "calorie dense". You get a lot of bang for your "calorie buck" with some foods, and other foods (bagels, pasta for example) are dense in calories and not as filling in comparison.

One average bagel = 300 calories. That equals 10 cups of broccoli, calorie-wise.

"This is why most diets fail and why most people who lose weight gain it back."

The reason why "diets" fail is that a diet is not a change in lifestyle, it's a temporary change in eating habits. Change your eating habits permanently, and you will not rebound. Make changes that you can live with, and you won't feel deprived or unhappy.

"Anyone who puts it all under the blanket (hateful I think) statement that overweight people are lazy or eat too much or whatever is only looking at a piece of the puzzle."

It's about "what" you eat, more than "how much". And it's possible to lose weight without exercise, but if you exercise you will look better (and not just weigh less) and by burning calories, you'll be able to give yourself a little leeway. If you're totally inactive, your diet would have to be more restricted (and thus, be harder to live with). BTW exercise can be whatever you want (it doesn't have to be "sports" if you don't like "sports").

It's possible to lose weight, people do it successfully every day. Don't worry about "haters", pay no attention.

What works for me is reducing or eliminating starches (as I already said). I will recommend this website one more time, it's helped me a lot... lots to read here:
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/

[Connonym]

78. I've successsfully kept off 80 lbs for almost 9 years

I battle it every single day and there's absolutely nothing you can tell me about it that I don't already know.

[readmoreoften]

64. Except that the body gem is a piece of garbage and it sounds like you're not an obesity doctor

I'm overweight largely because of my height (under 5 feet tall) and my metabolic inability to to process carbohydrates. I go to a bariatric doctor who is cutting edge in her field so that I do not become obese.

In order to maintain my weight I cannot go over 1000 calories a day. In order to lose weight I cannot go over 800 calories a day. I must take medication and exercise. Exercise works very, very, very, very slowly in the fat burning arena for me. I will not lose weight unless I am on a very low glycemic diet. My DHEA hormone levels are that of a 60 or 70 year old woman even though I'm in my 30s and I must take DHEA supplements. My body simply doesn't burn fat.

I only went to a doctor after being robbed by a gym and personal trainer who suggested exactly what you did. They put me on a 1400 calorie a day diet, gave me supplements and told me it'd be "hard work". After 2 months of working out with a trainer 3 times a week I was gaining fat, not just muscle, fat. By the end of 3 months I was 0.2 pounds of fat lighter and $2500 of my hard earned savings lighter as well.

Since then I've gone to the doctor and I lost 8 pounds the first month I was put on a diet of under 800 calories a day and given the proper supplements and medication. I lost 17 pounds in the first year.

[The Doctor.]

67. No, I'm not.

I have used other devices besides the body gem.

If you are obese at 5', and your active metabolism is 1000 cal/day, then I would like to know exactly what condition you suffer from.

[readmoreoften]

74. Yeah, so would I. Ask my doctor. Or are you insinuating I'm lazy. And I'm not obese.

I'm overweight. If I don't exercise, I get to obese very quickly. This whole thread kind of reeks of false sympathy and seems to be re-heating the critical tone that the other threads were working to get rid of.

[The Doctor.]

142. I insinuated nothing. I was honestly curious.

As it seems you're looking to be offended, I'll end this. Such was not the point of this thread, and I can do nothing for those that are seeking indignation.

If you can otherwise engage without trying to read hidden meanings or intentions, then say so.

[eridani]

66. You are completely ignoring feedback loops

It is true that the First Law of Thermodynamics must apply to the human body. It sets the ultimate limits on what anyone can gain or lose, but there is a considerable amount of variability in between because of complicated feedback loops. And, given the simplistic bank account approach which most people take, they are confused about what 'consumed' and 'burn off' mean.

There are active control systems which reduce the amount of energy used involuntarily for many of the body's autonomic functions--in other words resting metabolism fluctuates a lot. What is going on is not adequately captured by a "snapshot" test. Average RMR measurements do not capture real life fluctuations. There are also significant energy excretion systems which are active. A simplified version of overall calorie balance is the following:

C - N - S - I - H - E - V = 0

C = calories eaten
N = non-absorbed calories excreted in bowels
S = calories stored
I = calories calories used involuntarily (muscle maintenance, involuntary motion)
H = calories used for heat generation (Mitochondrial ATP uncoupling for heat generation has been indentified as one of the major energy utilization systems of the body and could account for 20 lbs-50 lbs/yearof weight gain for people whose basal temperature is under normal, which is the case for many.)
V = calories used voluntarily (exercise, for example)
E = calories excreted in urine (Examples: fat converted to glucose in the liver and excreted in the urine, incompletely burned triglycerides which are excreted in the urine, and albumin excreted in the urine)

It should be noted that there is "manual" control only on C and V. People who think of human metabolism as a bank account are willfully ignorant that these other variables adjust automatically within an active control system. All adjust when some of them change.

When C and V are changed 'manually', there may be permanent alteration to the control system, as in long-term dieting.

The amount of energy stored is not 'whatever is left over'. The body actively stores or mobilizes energy from its energy stores regardles of caloric intake or exercise. If there is a resulting energy deficit, it tries to increase C, causes a reduction in I, H, and E, and even actively prevents V. If there is an energy surplus, it tries to decrease C, increases I and H, encourages V, and, as a last resort, increases E.

The control systems for these actions are decentralized, so it is possible for the energy store to believe that it needs to increase S, while simultaneously, the liver believes that it is necessary to increase E. This leaves I, H, and V at an extreme disadvantage.

If an individual is not lethargic and ravenous, then his/her control system is not unbalanced, but has a different equilibrium than the average. One may wish that one's own equilibrium were different,
but the system is not amenable to manual control in the long term (especially by manually varying C), but there are strict limits to an individual's ability to change it.

Decreasing C (dieting) has been shown to cause a long-term decrease in H and a long term increase in S, and to prevent I from increasing when V is increased. Millions of dieters have experienced this. Obesity researchers have verified this.

RE "Jane with the RMR of about 1300-1600. That means that Jane will not gain weight if she takes in no more than 1300-1600 cal/day and engages in moderate exercise. In fact, under those conditions, she will lose weight. That’s 3 300 calorie meals and one 400 calorie meal per day. Very light meals to be sure… but not starvation." (You haven't seen people with RMR values as low as 1300 because they tend to strictly avoid fitness consultants. They get enough humiliation in daily life as it is.)

No, not starvation, but a totally miserable and unpleasant way to spend the rest of your life. At some level, many of us prefer being fat to being too distracted to study and improve professional knowledge, too preoccupied with being "normal" to engage in civic life, which tends to require quite a few non-aerobic meetings.

There is a national registry of people who have lost significant weight and kept it off for five years or more. They are the ones who successfully keep their caloric intake at 1000-1500, get daily exercise and ignore any resulting misery. One woman, asked why she succeeded in maintaining weight loss when most others failed said "It's what I do." The "failures" are those who decide that they'd rather have lives. You know, skipping exercise if your kid needs some extra school help, or there is an emergency town meeting about a nasty local chemical spill, or if you need a couple of more classes to finish your degree, or if you get hurt and can't work out.

[The Doctor.]

71. Actually, I wanted to go into more, but I know better than to sacrifice the point for the

really cool details.

And there are lots of them.

I'm just hanging on by a thread right now, but this definitely deserves a sub-thread.

I'll get back. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Hannah Bell]

73. Not to mention:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18551109?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Polymorphisms of the FTO gene are associated with variations in energy intake, but not energy expenditure

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18234126?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Interaction between gene & lifestyle factors on obesity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11409350?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=5&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

Effect of nutrition on adipose tissue metabolism in humans

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19017762?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Intergenerational transmission of glucose intolerance & obesity by in utero undernutrition in mice

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16761107?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

Reductions in caloric intake & early postnatal growth prevent glucose intolerance & obesity associated with low birthweight

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18803961?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Prenatal imprinting of postnatal specific appetites & feeding behavior

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18626486?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Methyl donor supplementation prevents transgenerational amplification of obesity


etc. etc.

[Locrian]

110. good post re the feedback loops...

I had intended to post something similar but yours is much more complete!

[Hannah Bell]

72. I don't think it's that simple. (MS, RD).

[Lerkfish]

85. unless, of course, your medication has as a side effect: weight gain.

so what do you suggest then, genius? die?

[npincus]

88. not very nice.

I think the OP is providing valuable general information with intention of helping people understand and manage their weight, and of course there would be medical exceptions and other extenuating circumstances. A member of my family takes steroids for a medical condition and is overweight, and she should not expect the same results as a someone her height and weight who follows the OP's advice.

[Lerkfish]

89. oh yeah, after all the fat-hate here lately, *I'm* the one who is not very nice.

:eyes:

maybe I'm just a little defensive after all the well-meaning attempts to make me want to commit suicide for being overweight.

[npincus]

90. hey...

I'm no slim-Jane, myself! :) Please do not use the "s-word". I haven't been here much lately (finding a lot of negativity on the boards when my soul is lifted and am rejoicing our victory-- after 8 years of living hell and destruction!) so haven't seen the threads you (and others) are referring to. I would advise, with care and concern, if that is happening to get away for a bit, or longer. The people who have made you feel this way don't get it. You are a beautiful human being, and don't deserve to be brought down by others, however well intended. And, don't think about doing you-know-what, for G-d's sake!

[Lerkfish]

95. oh, well, here's the hate for you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4514093&mesg_id=4514093




although I don't think its worth going there.

I appreciate your thoughtful post.

[npincus]

97. ...

So sorry about your gout. My Dad had gout... it's no day at the beach. I don't believe I have severe gout, but suffer intermitantly (depending on weight and diet) from foot and ankle pain.

Anyway.. on a sort-of related note, I recently did a 3-month herbal colon cleanse, and have to say it made me feel great; physically and mentally, in turn. It's not for weight-loss (though some people do), but for health. It amounts to drinking a fiber drink and some herbal pills in the morning, and water through-out the day, then an herbal tea before bed- very easy. I would recommend it to anyone. It cleans your body of harmful parasites, among other thinngs, and you feel more enrgetic. And my foot pain went away. The product I used is called Colonix, by Dr. Natura, but if you know your way around the health food store, you could probably buy the stuff yourself. Anyway, just throwing it out there... I am trying to get my family to try it as well! :)

[Lerkfish]

102. hm. sounds interesting. I periodically fast for 3-5 days to clean my system

but I never did it officially or with an herbal supplement.
I might give that a try, thanks!

[npincus]

103. oh, I hope you do!

Warning- the web site is chock full of disgusting (but interesting) pics... http://www.drnatura.com/

You may want to contact them and make sure there is no interaction issue with any medication you may be taking. Their customer service people are nice, responsive.

Best of luck, I don't believe you will regret it... and ignore the negative A-holes on this site... they are to be pitied, they are rotten on the inside where it really counts.


:)

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

94. wow, you're a laugh riot.

I don't eat big macs, you putz. I eat a healthy diet, probably healthier than assholes like you.
I'm type 2 diabetic, and all the meds for that have as a side effect weight gain.

[npincus]

99. you're a schmuck.

May karma turn 'round to bite you in the ass.

[AngryAmish]

86. Picky point - some of the very obese retain a lot of water

Reduced kidney function and other conditions cause folks to retain a lot of water. When it gets bad enough it seeps through the skin.

Otherwise, well done.

[electron_blue]

93. Thx for posting this. 2 things - correction? and a personal note

First, I think you forgot to subtract 161 from your example of a woman who weighs 300 lbs. I tried the calculation for myself, but after first verifying that I got the equation right. Just wondering which is right - the equation you list, or the numbers that you got for that woman. Maybe a link for the Mufflin RMR equation would help.

Second, as a physicist who lost 40 lbs, and kept it off, I've thought about this process a lot. I couldn't get past the basic fundamental laws of thermo that say that if energy in = energy out, then no weight will be gained. And, yes, I know that thyroid can put a body out of whack by a bit, but that doesn't violate the laws of thermo, it just means someone is burning energy at a different rate from the avg population. Anyway... my thyroid was fine, so I looked hard at what else was going on. I found that I was eating significantly more calories per day than I thought I was. I assumed I was taking in about 1800-2000. In reality, when I started counting, I found I was taking in 3000 calories a day. So that solved that mystery for me.

The personal demons I had to wrestle to keep from going back to 3000 cals/day were enormous and you're right that the struggle was terrible, even before I lost the weight. I really do think addiction issues came to play in my situation, and probably for many others who are significantly overweight. Depression or other mood related behaviors also come into play for me, and others I'm sure. When I eat an average of ~1500 cals/day, I don't gain weight. The easy part is knowing that. The hard part is keeping from eating a second helping because it makes me feel better, or because I have an intense craving for it. I have made significant progress on this, but it's been hard to find good, solid advice that works. I wish there was more attention paid by the medical community for dealing with those issues.

[no limit]

96. By working out 30 minutes a day 4 days a week and counting calories

I wouldn't eat more than 1,800 calories a day which was plenty, I never went hungry. I went from 265 lbs to 210 lbs in under 6 months. It can be done, you just need to motivate yourself and then keep that motivation up. The biggest problem is all the convinient food that is out there, many of us have gotten addicted to it and it's hard to break that addiction.

[bunkerbuster1]

98. K&R-ing. Shorter version below:

Calories in, Calories out.

Once you've got that figured out, you're halfway there.

[mimitabby]

105. hey thanks!

according to your math, I should be eating about 1200 calories a day when I don't exercise. People always tell me I don't have a big enough appetite, but this looks spot on! When I go on a 50 mile bike ride, somehow, I am a lot hungrier!

thanks for sharing.

[Bette Noir]

106. I haven't bothered to do the math, but I'll take it for granted that

the numbers add up. What the author isn't adding in, though, is *hunger.*

Yes, I eat more than some other women. If I don't eat enough to maintain my weight, which is in the "morbidly obese" category, the results are nausea, migraine headaches, confusion, and profound psychological depression.

Don't tell me I need willpower-- I have as much willpower as any ten slim women. What I don't have is a body that will allow me to deprive myself of food.

[Connonym]

211. I'm not trying to give medical advice but have you been checked for hypoglycemia?

that sounds really similar to the symptoms I get when my blood sugar goes too low. I also get a little lightheaded,sometimes clammy and sweaty and intensely hungry. I've found my blood sugar to be as low as 37 when I get these symptoms.

[Joe Chi Minh]

107. Of course, it's not just a life-style choice, but that is obviously the

"bottom line". If an obese person doesn't want to look and be perceived as more or less normal, and to generally avoid putting his or her health at unnecessary hazard, then what motive would he or she have to slim down to a more or less normal size for their bodymass index.

You know, no matter how low a mature adult's self image is, if they finally decide that they do want to lose most of their excess weight, it seems to me they need to focus on an approach that they were unable to do as children. Perhap with proper parental guidance in the matter - though their parents were surely likely to be as loving as the next person's - instead of seeking comfort in eating more food, they would have sought to eat less, in order to, at least minimise that particular problem. But unfortunately, their parents were unable to help them in that way. Of course, particularly with children, it's likely to be one of several problems.

No child has to earn unpopularity for them to be picked on by other kids who might well not be worthy of liking their boots. It's mostly a herd thing and that's a big problem, unless the thug/thugs are dealt with severely by the school authorities. Which I don't imagine happens very often. But, in adult life it comes down almost entirely to the hateful, contemptuous look, so is it not time to let go of the all too real and painful grievances of the growing-up years, and make the repeated decisions, which will be necessary, to endure, to live through the recurrent feelings of hurt, low self-esteem and depression incurred by the overweight condition, always looking to the future, when things will improve. Two days seldom seem the same. One day you'll be down, another things you'll be able feel less miserable.

There are all sorts of tricks we can play on ourselves, with a view to helping us to endure what at times seems unendurable. With obsesity, as a skinnymalynx myself (at least until old age), I can only conjecture, but I think I might find it helpful each time I feel hungry, apart from meal-times and the occasional indulgence, to think of peope who have no choice but to starve, and starve to death. And worse, watch their own children starving to death in front of their eyes. I'd always associated that with Ethiopia and ohter third world countries, but the other day I read on here of a young girl in Argentina (one of many children suffering similarly) apparently, literally dying of starvation. When the teacher asked her why she was always crying, she said that she hadn't eaten for three days. Benetton and other large Western corporations who have been buying up much of the country, are apparently to blame. Of course, it is an an irrelevance to your situation, and yours to people who are starving, but such meditations might still be helpful.

Perhaps some people will want to flame me for trying to be practical, but there are many in a simlar plight who are much better positioned to provide emotional support, which I realise is actually a precondition for even wanting to change course, as the OP intimated at the end of his post.

[NikolaC]

108. K&R

Thank you so much for that wonderful and informative post. I saw nothing flame worthy in your post. Your post seemed to come from the heart, was well meaning and not nasty, judgemental, condescending and abusive which was the case with some of the posts that I saw over the weekend.

[smiley_glad_hands]

112. Your math is all fine and dandy but genetics does play into it alot.

Some people are predisposed to be a certain weight and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

[Roland99]

113. But what changed in the last 20-30 years to cause the obesity epidemic in the US?

And not in most other nations?


It's sure as heck not genetics.


It's more to do with more sedentary lifestyles.

[mimitabby]

119. yes

we move less and less and get bigger and bigger. The other part of the equation is that food portions have grown too.
I have never seen fat ethiopians starving, fat indians starving, fat haitians starving. None of the concentration camp photos I've seen portrayed fat people either.
A combination of more eating and less moving is crippling our country. make your kids go out and play!

[undergroundpanther]

122. It has to do

with pollution it has saturated the planet to the point it is effecting us now.Kids with asthma are more common than ever.
Why do you think that is?

Two headed frogs and conjoined twins were once rare too.

but now they are not rarities, fat has been seen as a form of inflammation.Inflammation is a symptom of being infected or poisoned.

All this inflammation leads to an increased production of free radicals and oxidative stress further perpetuating
the above process. Other factors that further increase inflammation, toxic load and thus insulin resistance include poor sleep, stress, excessive medication, environmental toxins as well as poor gastrointestinal function (leaky gut syndrome). To add to this whole mess, increased inflammation causes more toxin formation which further enhances the formation of increased adiposity in an attempt to create more storage space for non-excreted toxins. It is important to note that many critical hormones diminish with age irrespective of weight and this process contributes to the increased propensity to obesity, insulin resistance, hypertension and other chronic diseases after 30 years of age. Above and beyond what is seen with normal aging, obesity through its disturbed physiological processes, results in further hormonal changes. Lowered than age adjusted levels of thyroid, testosterone, progesterone,DHEA, melatonin, vitamin D and growth hormone are commonly observed. Again, thesehormones can significantly influence weight, insulin sensitivity, blood pressure and general sense of well-being.


The whole constellation of the “metabolic syndrome” resulting from all of the above mentioned physiological changes includes obesity, hypertension, insulin resistance and altered
lipid levels. Other conditions that can develop from the above include vascular disease, heart disease, arthritis, dementia and increased risk of malignancy (the inflammation-chronic disease link). What does all this physiological mess boil down to with respect to obesity? The body is spun into a toxic, hyper-inflammatory, hormonally dysregulated, fat fuel storing mode regardless of eventual caloric intake. And it is a process that feeds on itself, a true vicious cycle


http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:oBZOOd4zZYsJ:www.4irh.com/documents/Successful_Weight_Loss.pdf+inflammation+environmental+toxin+fat&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us




While on the one hand this inflammatory process is protective, it can go awry, not only in individuals with inflammatory diseases such as arthritis but in otherwise healthy individuals whose lifestyles and/or environments expose them to substances the body perceives as irritants, such as low-grade infections from gum disease, food allergens, toxins, and even inflammatory foods such as sugar and animal fat.


Likewise, while inflammation is sometimes obvious, such as when an injured area becomes swollen, red, and warm to the touch, what science is teaching us is that inflammation can occur much more quietly and insidiously. It can occur silently without any symptoms. It is even emerging as a major cause of heart disease, diabetes, cancer,Alzheimer’s disease, and aging in general. It is also connected to weight gain.Inflammation is a silent killer, and unless it is adequately dealt with it can have disastrous effects on your weight and your health.

Anything that causes inflammation can make you gain weight, and any weight you gain can cause more inflammation. The most common cause of systemic inflammation is our modern diet (sugar, animal fat, and processed food, or the high-glycemic-load diet most Americans are eating) and lack of exercise. Other things contribute but to a lesser extent, such as food (particularly gluten) and environmental allergens,infections, stress,and toxins.
http://coaches.aol.com/wellness/feature/_a/how-does-inflammation-affect-your-weight/20060620170209990001

[SweetieD]

132. High Fructose Corn Syrup is what happened.

[Roland99]

146. And a great lack of self-control, too.

When I got to the point that I was about 15-20lbs overweight I decided to do something about it. I joined the YMCA and started eating better.

4 months later I was down to an ideal weight for my height and had dropped two jeans sizes.


Doesn't take much effort, just the willpower to be healthy (at least for the vast majority of people).

[eilen]

199. Inflammation has been my barrier

A few years ago (2005) I lost 45 pounds and was on my way to losing more but then a combination of stressful events occurred and I also started having chronic pain and signs and symptoms of inflammation in different areas of my body that inhibited exercise.

I would get sciatic pain on and off, plantar fascitis type pain, tedonitis in my arm/shoulder and wrist pain. I also started having trouble with my knee-- the cartilage started "clicking" when I bent my knee and straightened it-- somedays it hurt badly but others it didn't. I also had hip pain that was unrelated to sciatica-- more seated at my joints. I was working in an infusion clinic as an infusion nurse and was constantly running up and down the hallways, ripping IV bags open--it was pretty repetitive. I was also exposed quite a bit to strong chemicals (chemotherapy). This was not due to being out of shape. I had been exercising and was only about 10 pounds overweight at this time. I was wearing a size 8/10 jean (I'm 5'4" with medium build). This seriously slowed me down and combined with my husband's volatile work situation and frequent absences, I was very stressed. I actually consulted a sports physician about my knee. It became almost impossible to descend stairs between my knee and my heel.

Now I seem to get these rotating inflammatory events one at a time. I recently have gotten over a case of plantar fascitis that lasted over a year. It was so painful, I had to seriously decide-- exercise and be laid up the rest of the day or forgo exercise and get to go to the supermarket and my housework done. I am so happy it is gone, I feel a surge of hope. Prior to my left foot being an issue, I my left shoulder had tendonitis-- I would cry driving to work it would hurt so badly. In between with hips and back aching, it is a wonder I managed to try and exercise at all, in fact, exercise seemed to trigger these instances. It did not occur to me until last winter that I might have an inflammatory condition-- I mostly just explained my "aches and pains" away as separate occurances and not realized that they may all be connected. Of course, with the pain and stress, my eating habits went awry and my exercise routines were interrupted enough that they were discontinued and I gained the weight back.

I find I do much better (esp. digestion) when I eat well/clean. If I don't I experience IBS. Today I noticed I have a wheat sensitivity. I made meatball "subs" for dinner (my 16 year old's request) and found the hot dog roll I was using as my sub roll made my mouth feel weird--tingly and itchy. I looked at my food diary and noted that I had a sandwich at lunch (multigrain bread) and half a ww pita at breakfast. I am going to limit my intake of wheat to one serving a day now.

I have over 50 pounds I need to lose and am actually heavier now than before I started when I had that large weight loss. I know how to lose it. I am a trained nurse and am aware of biochemistry, nutrition and benefits of exercise. I just pray I can stave off any further inflammation events long enough to get myself back in shape.

I'm going to check out your links and I appreciate any insight into this. When I bring it up to my doctor he just gives me a weird look-- like I'm some kind of batty hypochondriac denial queen. He is a GP, not a bariatric doctor and is just great for sore throats etc. He always gives me the go ahead for any exercise program.

One thing I question is the quality of food that is available. I have read a bit on traditional diets and while they have plenty of fat, it is clean fat (CLA) from grass fed animals, organ meats that provide essential minerals or good fresh raw milk from cows and foods that are fermented and populated with good bacteria and cultures. It just seems so difficult and very expensive to obtain these foods that while I like them, I can't live on them. It seems that these foods are foods from my heritage and might provide some anti-inflammation as well as positive immune system building properties.

[bread_and_roses]

194. what about the ubiquitious corn syrup and antibiotics and hormones

fed to our meat and dairy stock and the use of cottonseed oil and other crimes against nature committed on our food supply? About fifteen years ago an elementary school teacher told me she was having to tell the parents of third and fourth graders that their children should start using deoderant, and that it was no longer all that uncommon for girls to enter puberty in fourth grade.

But try to avoid corn syrup on a low-income. Much less buy organic or even "raised without antibiotics" chicken. Or anything else.

[undergroundpanther]

117. Very thoughtful post, Dr_eldritch.I got a question for you..

Great post,

But I think you forgot a few things in your equation. You are assuming said heavy person is not taking any medications.Weight gain is a very common side effect of many kinds of medications.
And the way medications mess with your body is scary.


Secondly,You are assuming the hypothetical person has no genetic or physical issues interfering with weight loss.


Third, fact is,we live in a chemical stew.Our environment and our foods are contaminated,being poor increases the chance the food you eat will be low quality.This can effect weight as well.

Fourth, you didn't add in severe stress,in adulthood you mentioned it in childhood ,so kudos for that.. but domestic abuse is so common,rape is too common (1 in 4 girls are raped before age 18)and people get huge doses of stress at various times during their entire lives to deny emotions like lonliness,dispair or vulnerability or anger .Emotions our culture taboos.Emotions that should evoke compassion, or action but get us scorn instead..that messes with you too.

Here is my question: Can you explain to me how my situation below,fits into your model of calories in/out.I'm curious.

I lived at a halfway house. I was on meds but my weight was not effected by it. We were served meals there.They same portions everyday. I was 170 lbs.

One day while there,I faced an attempted rape,I beat the crap out of him,but the stress and triggers overwhelmed me anyway.I was still eating the same portions at the halfway house .On the same meds, no dose changes.

I gained two pant sizes in two weeks.

I was eating the same portions that I was eating before the incident,yet after that incident my weight jumped up at least 40 pounds with no additional food intake or medication changes. How?

At this house I could not go out and eat,and my food portions were controlled by the way they managed food there.I was not in control of the food I ate.I ate what they gave me.That's it.


So how did I gain over 40 pounds? in TWO weeks?

[The Doctor.]

134. Hmmm.... 40 pounds in two weeks? That's simple;

You're one of the many points in the Universe where all the subatomic matter reintegrates from the black holes!

:smartass:

(I really would love a smartass smiley here, but this'll have to do; :evilgrin:

Ok, 40 lbs in 2 weeks; Well, first of all, that's about 140000 calories. That's easy enough; works out to an average of 10,000 cal/day over and above your daily utilization.

What did we tell you about eating live wildebeests whole and screaming?


Or, more likely, you put on a huge amount of water weight. :think:

Your metabolism could have been slightly compromised... perhaps even seriously. But like I said; I've never heard of anything that drops it by anywhere near half without killing you.

As you know, stress can really screw up your electrolyte balance. This is just speculation about what happened to you, but if you're burning through potassium, suddenly your sodium levels become significant.... *poof*, you blow up with water. The good part about that is that the weight can come off just as quickly with a proper adjustment in you potassium/sodium balance. And as always, consult a physician. ;)

I know that the OP simplifies the issue, but either way, when it comes to fat, it always boils down to the numbers. Water weight comes on and off very quickly, as you well know. That was the gimmick that hack Atkins (may he burn) used to dupe people into thinking his deit was a good one. In reality, what his diet did was wreck the body's ability to create glycogen by starving it of carbohydrates. Glycogen holds lots of water... no more glycogen (well, just 'less' really), no more water. The whole diet was designed around sabotaging the body's water retention mechanisms.

There are far healthier ways to lose weight.

I also highly recommend swinging heavy objects around at the direction of a physician.

Cheers!

[happy5]

120. I'm the biggest liberal, but give me a break...

obesity in America is caused by mega portions and a sedentary lifestyle, legit medical conditions are a MINORITY. I lost 30 pounds last year via Weight Watchers, and I have kept the weight off since March. True, I have to lose another 25 pounds, but the key point is I stopped making excuses about having "fat genes" or a medical condition that predisposes me to gain weight.

As a young doctor, it upsets me having to hear people they "hardly eat" but still are overweight. It is difficult to lose weight, expensive to buy good, wholesome food, and hard to take the time for exercise, and you may not notice any changes in the first couple of months, but the weight will come off. Don't give me the "medical condition" crap. If you have hypothyroidism (common cause of sudden weight gain), get treatment, if you have diabetes, stick to your diet, and it will slowly control, even reverse itself, when you lose some serious weight.

The above calculators are nice, buy try this instead: (1) STOP making excuses, (2) have a realistic plan initially ("I want to drop 10 pounds in the next 4-5 months"), (3) take a toll of what it will cost you (no more late meals, only one happy hour every 1-2 weeks, cooking for the week, no going out unless it is planned), (4) look for help (Weight Watchers, a local nutritionist), and then (5) DO IT!

You have to eat. Don't claim you don't eat breakfast, have a small lunch, eat dinner, and then complain you don't lose weight. Eat most of your food at breakfast, medium to light lunch, eat the rest at dinner. Maybe one snack per day, that is it, 4 meals. And STOP eating junk food. You all know what I'm talking about. Hamburgers and hot dogs are American, but just because you are a patriot doesn't mean you have to eat one every day.

Rome wasn't built in one day. People that weigh 400, 300, or even 230 like I did, want to lose 8 pounds per month. Ain't gonna happen... be realistic, and be patient.

Sorry for the little rant, hope this helps.

[undergroundpanther]

123. your rant does not help

You sounded like an insensitive asshole.
I am NOT sedentary but I am fat.

I live in sprawl and I have no car, too POOR to have one. So I haul 40 pounds of groceries from the store to my home a half mile one way, another half mile back,and if I go anywhere I walk there.I can walk for hours and not get winded.Fat but fit.It exists.
I get groceries 2 times a week,and walk somewhere nearly everyday despite degenerative disc disease, yeah exercise will fix everything.You don't know shit.
Your rant was scapegoating crap..So curb your ignorance and bigotry.

[happy5]

129. Losing weight does NOT fix everything...

that is for sure. However, if someone is overweight, working out, and eating less, will do wonders towards improving one's self-esteem, health, and general outlook on life. It sucks people look down on fat people, but saying "I have a medical condition" does not help except a minority of people who actually have a tough time losing weight (diabetes, hypothyroidism, Cushing's disease, adrenal disease, etc). Degenerative disc disease is a pain to have, some people have it since young adults, but it is also caused, and made worse, by extreme obesity.

Also, who said I was talking directly to you? I said I have 25 pounds to lose! My point is that overall, we need to stop making excuses and start moving. I hardly see my 1 year, 6 month old baby boy, nor my wife, due to my work, hang around all day with people who are sick, eating hospital cafeteria food, not being paid the best of salaries, and guess what, I'm "fat but fit" as well. Can hold a handstand for 1 minute and everything.

I really stuck to my diet when rotating in family medicine. Seeing older folks with debilitating hypertension, diabetes, heart problems, joint problems, etc, taking 15 pills a day, really saddened me. The doc I was practicing told me straight out that, ruling out serious disease such as cancer, etc, an average individual can live from 40 to 70 in fantastic health if the "tubes" were clear of sludge, i.e. as little fat clogging the arteries. Quality of life from 70 onward depends on luck (of course), the type of life you live from there, and on how you have lived the previous 69 years!

Obesity, overall, is not complicated. More in, less out, and it gets worse with age, as our metabolism decreases. My dad is in fantastic shape at 55. He has always been an athlete, and I always used it as an excuse. However, he does not drink, smoke, or ever missed a workout, a lesson I am learning now as a young adult. Yeah, he is lucky, but he has never slacked off, and that is the key: being consistent, and continue doing things even when life is grim.

It sounds you have other health problems... and I have asthma episodes 3-4 times a year, thank heavens not very severe, but it may get worse as I get older. I may get diabetes, who knows. However, I wish someone had told me straight out, in "condescending asshole" fashion, to do what I mentioned above, heck, wish my own father told me that. Five years of my life were lost "lamenting" I was fat. Still am, but 30 pounds less.

What was this thread for again?

[JNelson6563]

165. It seems to me

the poster was mostly stating his own experience and believing much of his own was shared by many. I thought your reply here was unnecessarily harsh in parts. That aside, I am sorry to read of your situation, truth be told, I am but a hair's breadth away from where you are. Scary times.

Peace--
Julie

[nichomachus]

121. And poverty is caused by not having any money

Whenever we give people lots of money, they're not poor any more.

Unfortunately, poverty, like a weight problem, is much more complicated than that.

[undergroundpanther]

124. Poverty is caused by greedy people

Funny7 how fat bodies are hated yet over large bank accounts are not questioned as a dire problem.

Nobody has a right to be rich if others suffer because of your greed.

[Castleman]

155. and even funnier how your bank balance makes you thinner

I'm fat, no matter how you look at it, but if I was worth 25 million, I'd be irresistable to women....

[onlyadream]

126. Good info...but

I do have a few questions:

1. Don't some people have faster metabolisms than others? I've seen skinny people eat like a horse (and claim to always do so), and not gain an ounce of fat.

2. I've heard that if you go under 1200 cals a day your body goes into starvation mode and you do slow down your metabolism. When you resume eating normally you gain. So, it seems you would get fat more easily b/c less cals are burned off, right?

3. If you are on some medications, your metabolism gets slowed down, so you will gain fat. Right? Same thing with an underactive Thyroid (which controls metabolism). These conditions promote a slowed metabolism - so a person can put on weight easily.

I don't think it's as easy as garbage in garbage out. I think our bodies are far more complex.

Take hot flashes (for those in menopause) - to get hot you need energy, right? You would think that a woman in menopause, who has hot flashes, would be burning up the calories big time (in order to produce such heat). And, yet, normally, menopause causes a 15 lb increase.

[Locrian]

137. correct

The "physics" of energy in - out completely ignores hormones, feedback loops, etc that are different for everyone.

Thyroid, cortisol levels and other hormones are influenced by the foods we eat, stress, environmental toxins etc. These directly affect the metabolism and how the "energy" is used / stored.

[The Doctor.]

162. ...

"It’s a difficult and horrible condition that generally exacerbates depression that, in turn, often results in further over-eating. Often this is originated by a medical condition or improper childhood nutrition... not the fault of the person."

"The body also cannot function without utilizing calories. Anyone who lives burns calories in proportion to their overall mass adjusted for lean/adipose variation, gender, age, and adverse medical conditions. No medical condition, of any kind, can reduce calorie utilization to 0... except death. No medical condition exists that can reduce calorie utilization to so low a point that only starvation will result in weight loss.
It is a fact that the more massive the individual, the more calories they will burn just sitting in a chair."

Yeah, it's simplified, but it really does boil down to managing intake vs utilization. If that means periodization, then obviously the smarter the solution the better.

The bottom line is that obesity is not insurmountable... no matter how much it may seem so.

[Lerkfish]

128. why cold, hard math is pointless to describe an entire species of individuals

individuals react differently to all sorts of things, including medicines, which is why side effects do not always affect every individual in the same way.

math is a cold absolute, 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4, etc. But individual metabolism and DNA, not to mention previous or current conditions, contribute variables which defeat the simplistic attempt to apply math to people.

For example, I heal faster than most people, but I leave heavier scars. My wife bruises easily if she just bumps her hip against the counter. My sister burns easily in sunlight but I don't.

your cold hard math should only be used to explain math.

[The Doctor.]

136. Right, because some people have a silicon physiology...

and others are just made of fire. :eyes:

Sorry, but it really is that simple; for a body to function, it must burn calories. To gain adipose mass, one must take in more calories than they utilize.

Sure, there are people that have an RMR below 1000, are overweight, and continue to gain even when they take in 1001 calories/day. (which would take 3500 days to gain a whole pound)

Those people make up less than .1% of the population.

I appreciate that people react differently to many different things, and there is another reason for weight gain; water retention. But that can be remedied very rapidly as opposed to the reduction of body fat... which takes time, discipline, and will.

For the vast majority of people, the math applies. It's just that their particular circumstances make it difficult, or even nearly impossible, to execute a regimen. That includes emotional circumstances.

[Lerkfish]

138. well, I'm glad we can discuss it like adults

no wait, we couldn't.

[The Doctor.]

141. That's below you.

What, can't handle a little snark?

Here, I'll take that part out and leave the rest;

It really is that simple; for a body to function, it must burn calories. To gain adipose mass, one must take in more calories than they utilize.

Sure, there are people that have an RMR below 1000, are overweight, and continue to gain even when they take in 1001 calories/day. (which would take 3500 days to gain a whole pound)

Those people make up less than .1% of the population.

I appreciate that people react differently to many different things, and there is another reason for weight gain; water retention. But that can be remedied very rapidly as opposed to the reduction of body fat... which takes time, discipline, and will.

For the vast majority of people, the math applies. It's just that their particular circumstances make it difficult, or even nearly impossible, to execute a regimen. That includes emotional circumstances.

Now can you have an 'adult' discussion?

[dbmk]

152. I am pretty sure the OP knows that

But all other things being equal - his words hold up. For the average person and by far the major part of overweight persons, better diet and _exercise_ will change things.

I have done it myself - and lapsed back sadly - and seen 4-5 of my friends do it. But boy, can it be tough to get started - and keep going. Actually getting started is not so hard. Done that a 100 times. Keeping it up, though...

But; I think everyone recognizes that some have a harder time at this than others because of matters out of their control.

Everyone owes it to themselves, though, to, if they really want to lose weight, at least confirm that they are doing everything in their power to eat and exercise right. Which means talking to some specialists if you try on your own and nothing budges. Make sure you are not making up excuses and if there really is one, find out if there is a way around it.

Again; I understand that there can be factors in play, that people have little control over.
I have yet to see someone changing their diet and start exercising every day and them not change for the better though. Even if the pounds didn't start melting off.

[The Inquisitive]

177. Pick up a statistics textbook

there is an epiphany waiting for you there.

[Tesha]

188. "Blah, blah, blah not my fault blah, blah blah."

An unfortunate number of the posts here boil down to this.

Tesha

[Connonym]

215. No, really it's 'blah, blah, blah why the fuck do you care what I weigh?'

and why do people feel so compelled to make an issue out of it? The issue is overweight not child molestation. Nobody's hurting anyone. People should not have to justify their weight to anyone. End of story. MYOB. See, doesn't that make it a lot more simple?

[Tesha]

238. I guess it depends on how one feels about cheeseburger-assisted suicide.

Seriously, I don't give a rat's ass what you weigh
unless the fact of your weight somehow intersects
my life in some way. And, generally speaking,
aside from broad public policy issues like Health
Care, that won't happen.

Still, an awful lot of people on this thread (not
necessarily you) seem to be arguing against
the basic physics and biochemistry of weight
gain/loss and attempting to cast blame everywhere
except their own mouths. It's magic! It's genes!
It's hormones! It's allergies! No, ultimately it's
the fact that we over-weight people eat too
much for the amount of exercise that we do.
And weight loss/maintenance requires shifting
that balance -- no other real remedy exists.

Tesha

[Lerkfish]

243. I think you're reading what you want to read and I find it interesting you

project the wishful thinking word of suicide.

so, what do you REALLY want us overweight people to do? kill ourselves? and will that make you so much more happier about yourself?

[Gwendolyn]

246. I think the poster was talking more along the same lines as the person downthread

who runs a nursing home. What people do to their bodies can often be considered suicide. :)

For those who have a disease or condition that requires medication like steroids, anti-depressants, etc... ---> this thread is not for you.

If you've had major surgery, are physically challenged, or otherwise unable to exercise ----> this thread also, may not be for you.

If you think that you've been sedentary for other reasons, indulge in too much food, and feel you should do something about it, then this thread is for you. I find it inspiring actually, and many of the posts labeled hateful were also an inspiring shot in the arm for anyone who thinks it's time to do something. It all comes down to attitude.

Going to your comment about math not applying... do you know how Olympic athletes train? It's all diet, training and calculators (and well drugs too, but that's factored into the equation). The best Olympic trainers are the best mathematicians.

[Tesha]

250. No, you took that *EXACTLY* wrong.

I *DON'T* want you to kill yourself, but that's exactly
what many overweight people as doing, cheeseburger
by cheeseburger and cake slice by cake slice, even
as they blame their weight gain on everything including
sunspots!

Nice way to take offense, though ;) .

Tesha

[Scout]

252. EVERYONE alive now is "killing themselves slowly" simply by being alive

whether they eat cheeseburgers and cake or not.

:eyes:

[Lerkfish]

254. you don't know shit about what I eat.

and nice hyperbole, yeah, I'm blaming sunspots!

hey, fuck that. I'm not blaming anyone or anything, I'm just tired of the moral outrage of complete strangers over how much I weigh. fuck that.

[Tesha]

259. That's not quite true.

> you don't know shit about what I eat.

That's not quite true.

In the reply immediately below, you've told me you eat like an idiot:

> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4523883&mesg_id=4533717

Frankly, I'm not surprised.

Tesha

[Lerkfish]

260. never mind

welcome to my ignore list, you are truly an unpleasant person.

[Lerkfish]

232. really? you get that from what I posted?

you walk away from all my valid points with that?

ok.

:shrug:

[Tesha]

236. A'yup.

[Lerkfish]

239. well, then I guess even skinny bigots can have reading comprehension problems.

whoda thunk?

[Tesha]

241. Why did you assume that I'm skinny?

Perhaps I'm just more-honest with myself than
some posters here?

Tesha

[Lerkfish]

242. LOL!

ok, I'll bite: what is your honest weight and height?

[Tesha]

251. The exact numbers are none of your business...

but suffice it to say that I'm overweight, but
have spent the last six months or so making
good progress on correcting that. And I've
done it using the exact method advocated in
the OP: a bit less food (overall, no special
restrictions) and *A LOT MORE* exercise,
in my case, miles and miles of walking.

Tesha

[Lerkfish]

253. oh, well, I'm a bit more brave...or honest

6'4" tall and 297 lbs.

I have always struggled with my weight, am type 2 diabetic along with other health problems that make excercise difficult. I routinely fast for as long as 3-5 days at a time, and limit my food intake as much as I can without fainting.

which is neither here not there, except that *I* would never dream to judge someone based on their weight or ability to lose weight.

I guess that's where I and some people differ.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

147. So why don't you take your own advise and eat less?

You might already be skinny, but you'll save lots of money.

[The Doctor.]

156. I haven't necessarily 'advised' that at all.

I've had to tell people that were overweight to eat more before... and at the right times.

All I'm saying in the OP is that gain and loss boils down to the numbers... even though there are a number of factors that complicate things.

This is in response to people that seem to think that obesity is insurmountable. It's not. That said, I fully understand the obstacles that obese/overweight people face because I've had to deal with them. You can't help someone in a situation like that unless you can put yourself in their shoes. I know how hard it can be, I know what people are up against and how unfair the treatment they receive is.

But it does not change the fact that there exists no case where obesity cannot be dealt with... no matter how hard it may be.

As for your advice; My penchant for alcohol is what keeps me 20 pounds overweight. You're absolutely right... when I cut that out I both save money and lose weight.

[Ilsa]

150. Thanks for the post. You forgot to address the endocrine feedback loops.

And I don't necessarily mean thyroid, but doesn't the mass of the omentum create problems with shedding weight also as a possible feedback loop for creating greater appetite?

[The Doctor.]

159. Well, first off...

My point was to lay out simple and fundamental points that relate to obesity. I do believe I mentioned that there are many adverse factors that make it difficult, but the bottom line is still the same; every body must utilize calories to function, control of caloric intake... and not simple restriction, but proper modulation, is the ultimate solution. The problem is getting past all of the other hurdles on the way to making that solution a reality.

Now, as I've said, I never did take endocrinology, but have a basic understanding of anatomy.

As far as I can remember, the omentum, basically the sheath that keeps stuff where it's supposed to be, can become pretty massive in obese people. I honestly don't know how this affects hormone production, but knowing that it can literally 'squeeze' the entire GT makes me wonder just what total effect it can cause.

If one puts pressure on the small intestines, and disrupts digestion, I can see how someone can experience low blood sugar, hunger, and further consumption. Then what? Well, I suppose they can experience massive blood glucose spikes (hell, just by shifting position in their sleep), massive insulin production, greater weight gain, and greater risk for diabetes.

That sound about right?

So what we're still talking about is too much intake.

Please do correct me if I missed anything... I hate speculating without a better picture.

[Ilsa]

182. The fundamentals you discussed are fine. I was simply pointing out

that once the weight is gained, it is possible that it is very difficult to lose, and thought it merited at least a mention.

The docs doing bariatric surgeries are frequently including some degree of omentum reduction because of what they believe are hormone feedback systems. I also don't know the details.

I'm glad you mentioned the effect of excess weight on internal organs. There isn't enough information discussed on that. In Lactation, it is speculated that excessive fat accumulating in breast tissue places too much mechanical pressure on milk ducts. Lactation is a positive feedback system, so this tends to cause disruption in milk supply in women with "plenty of breast tissue." It isn't a major topic, but the example is there for consideration.

[Castleman]

151. Interesting facts and figures, simple observation shows it's not that simple

Yes, there is a biological component to obesity, but lifestyles and eating habits have an enormous effect on your health as well.
I live in Washington State, and I visit Canada quite often. The last town in the USA is Blaine, and in Blaine the average woman's hips are about 44 inches. Cross the border, and the first town is White Rock, where the average woman's hips are about 34 inches. In Blaine, the Burger King and McDonalds have SuperDuperExtra size meals with a shoebox full of fries and bucket of soda. In White Rock, they don't. In fact, for a larger town, White Rock doesn't have as many fast food type restaurants. The McDonalds in White Rock has vegetarian and low calorie/low fat sub options, the McDonalds in Blaine is only too happy to add extra bacon and extra cheese. I was stunned to find out 32 ounce soft drinks are a RARITY in Canada at restaurants, but 44 and BIGGER are commonplace all over America. You can buy a 64 ounce Pepsi at any 7-11 or AM/PM, but most of what I see in a Canadian minimarket is 12 oz. cans and 16 oz. bottles.
You hit Blaine on a nice sunny day and it looks just like a rainy one, hit White Rock, and the pedestrians and bicyclists will mow you over. Very few of the people that live in Vancouver even bother owning cars, and they do a ton of walking, and gee, they look pretty healthy. My best friend is considered thin in the Puget Sound area as she's 5'5" and weighs about 125, in Vancouver, she's one of the thicker women in the mall.
It isn't ALL metabolism, genetics, etc.

[knitter4democracy]

157. I'm glad you put the medical condition issue in there.

That's what I'm fighting. My doctor and my STBE-husband, an internist, both maintained that I gained weight so fast after the nephrectomy because the tumor was so vascular and had been starving me for awhile, lowering my metabolism to very low. But--and this is a big one--they both maintained I was overeating. So, I started writing down everything I ate for a week for my doctor, and when she saw it, she said there was no way I was gaining weight on eating so little. I even measured, just to make sure. My husband was going over my food diary the other day and said that it would be a miracle if I ate 1500 calories a day. I'm finally stabilizing on that. Well, now that we're going through a divorce and I have constant nausea from the anxiety, I'm losing because I'm not eating much at all, but that's new.

Honestly, I'd probably have to eat 1000 calories a day and do a thirty minute workout every day--on top of cleaning, running around to get the kids, and all of the walking I do around the house to get my work done--to lose weight. I'm focusing on upping my exercise slowly (broken bones this summer have made that harder), but honestly, I get mad when people say it must be because I'm overeating. Ask my doctor and my husband: I'm not.

[The Doctor.]

160. I believe it.

1000 cal/day is very low.

I'd be shocked if you were over 5'4", but nonetheless, many things can sabotage the metabolism.

Talk to your doctor, and see if you can periodize your diet and exercise in order to try and 'ramp up' your RMR. It can be done.

Some of my clients loved me when I told them that one day a week, they didn't have to count a single calorie. They could eat anything they wanted. Obviously the diabetics couldn't do that, but most people can benefit greatly from periodization.

Talk to your doc.

And try not to be too stressed... I'm going through that 'STBE' thing too, and it really sucks.

[knitter4democracy]

248. I'm 5'5" and 203 on my scale this morning.

I don't mind admitting it.

I will ask her about the ramping up thing. She's been so worried about my asthma and now back problem and the broken bones (and that's just in the last six months) that we've decided to dial back on the weight stuff. I've got the Mayo Clinic diet book and am first just writing down everything I eat and trying to cut back when I can even more (instead of two cups, one cup, that sort of thing), but that's it.

That damn kidney tumor really messed my body up. *sigh* And so did my STBE, but that's another story. Yes, it really does suck. :hug:

[NeedleCast]

166. I know this is a serious topic but

"No medical condition, of any kind, can reduce calorie utilization to 0... except death."

That was funny.

[TrogL]

167. I got fat one time - and I'm naturally skinny

When I was young, my parents had to practically force-feed me to get me to eat anything at all. The doctors were worried about my weight. As a teenager I was 6 foot and 129 pounds. Over the next decade or so I got comfortable at 137-142. I'd eat when I was hungry, stop eating when I was full. Normally for dinner I'd have a cup of veggies, one baked potato, one full-size chicken breast for sure and maybe a second one and a piece of pie.

Then the doctor put me on the anti-depressant Remeron and it was one of the worst experiences of my life.

I couldn't stop eating.

By the fourth chicken breast my stomach would be in full-blown cramps, but my brain was screaming HUNGRY HUNGRY HUNGRY HUNGRY all day all night. I suspect the seratonin receptors in my gut got messed up but couldn't transmit "full" signals. For the first time in my life I had to rigorously watch my caloric intake and even that didn't seem to help much.

After I went off Remeron, my weight went down, but not back to where it was and since then it's made its way back up, but I think that's just middle-age paunch. Currently I'm around 183.

So next time you see someone with a weight issue, there but for the grace of God and some seratonin receptors could be you.

[unc70]

175. Adenovirus possibly another culprit since 1980

There is considerable research that an adenovirus that "jumped" from fowl to mammals in south Asia in the late 1970's may be a factor in the obesity "epidemic" of recent decades, not only in the US but in almost every region of the world and particularly in warmer climates. I suspect that transmisssion of the virus could be in part by insects, similar to other AD diseases such as "pink eye".

In studies with lab animals fed the same rations, those infected gained nearly twice the weight of the uninfected control group. The virus mimics proteins which control the amount of "fat" stored within cells.

There is now a blood test for antibodies to this virus and an evolving treatment program.

[Pithlet]

179. Far better if you'd just stuck to the first paragraph, "Dr"

That I fully agree with. I think you wrote that beautifully. I really wish you'd just posted that. I think if you really agreed with it yourself fully, and if you were genuinely sick of the flaming, you wouldn't have titled your OP the way you did. The Cold Hard Math of Weight Gain? Come on. :thumbsdown:

What it boils down to is when it comes down to how people are treated, all that stuff doesn't matter. When it comes to how overweight people are treated, it doesn't matter what causes it. It doesn't matter if there's a mathematical equation, or how much it factors in, or whether it's genetics. That stuff only really matters between the overweight person and the professional they're seeking help with. Because in posting all this stuff here on DU, all you really did was give ammo to the people in these threads who've been flaming and spreading their hate. Right now, they're nodding to themselves because to them it's reaffirmed everything they thought they knew. And the next time this issue comes up, they'll continue to spread their hate here. I don't think you've truly helped anyone here today. Personally, I'm not even sure your advice is all that accurate to begin with, but that's not really relevant, and this is an internet message board. My point is we should all just say enough is enough. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. Stop hating and discriminating based on appearance. Period. Bloviating about math helps no one.

[The Doctor.]

180. Then you should read with BOTH eyes.

The one that sees one PoV, and the one that sees the other.

The only idiots that read this and use the facts they've found here to assail others are the ones that disagree with 'the first paragraph'... much the way you disagreed with the rest.

You know that I have done no such 'hating and discriminating based on appearance', but you just have to have some reason to be offended, don't you?

You don't like it, go flame somewhere else.

The outrage junkies around here are really a breed apart.

[Pithlet]

183. I'm not the one that's flaming.

I'll tell you why I think you're the one who is. First of all, it was the title of your OP. If that wasn't designed to raise hackles, I don't know what is. Very confrontational. Then it's the very confrontational way you deal with anyone who doesn't agree with you. You're very snide and snarky. Including the way you're responding to me. You automatically just assume that I'm some outrage junky. Just because I disagree with you. And it's not that I disagree with you. I'm not an obesity expert by any means. But, I'm not completely without knowledge on the subject, either. I just don't profess to be entirely an expert.

Believe me. I read what you had to say with two eyes. Now I think you should step back, tune down your defense mechanism, turn off the snark and derision, and read me with your own two eyes. I'm not accusing you of hating and discriminating, and I did no such thing in my first post. I accused you of giving them ammo. And whether or not you intended to, you did. With bells on. My point - my whole point - is that it does not matter to what extent obesity is surmountable. You contend that obesity is always surmountable. I, myself, would hope that this is true, even though I'm pretty sure actual experts don't agree on that matter. My point is, when it comes to the hate and discrimination that overweight and obese people face on this very board, IT DOES NOT MATTER. Every single time the issue of that hatred is discussed and you, or anyone else, comes in with the whole "CALORIES IN! CALROIES OUT!!!!" mantra, it detracts from the discussion. I'm sorry, but it does. My whole point is, who cares! It doesn't matter. It's not relevant. It's only going to start a flamewar, because those assholes are always going to jump on that as an excuse to start hating.

[The Doctor.]

193. Like I said, anyone who uses that to assail anyone is an ignorant jerk.

Second, you did say; "It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. Stop hating and discriminating based on appearance. Period. Bloviating about math helps no one."

And then tell me not to 'get defensive'? :wtf:

Look, I wrote something to make the point that obesity is not insurmountable. I gave information, and despite the fact that in your obvious short-sightedness you claimed it 'helps no one' and seemed to miss the posts on this thread that show otherwise in many ways.

People choose to take from things what they wish. You and a few others chose to take contention and conflict from this OP. Many, many others chose to take a thoughtful impression and add to the discussion.

I know that some things simply cannot be said without pissing someone off somewhere. I can choose to withhold what I do know, or I can dispassionately share what I think might help those thoughtful enough to gracefully take from it what helps them.

So far, there has been a great deal of information in this thread.
If you choose to be one for whom indignation is more important than understanding, there is little I can do about it.


The 'flamewar' was not started by this OP, it was started by those that think that certain facts should be withheld in deference to the feelings of those who might otherwise benefit from them. I attacked no one, but you found a way to create conflict anyway.

Good night.

[Pithlet]

195. I think it got flamey because you responded snottily to those who disagreed.

I'll admit, your choice of title rubbed me wrong, but if you'd been respectful in your responses, I'd have been more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But what really got me going was how you've responded to people who've disagreed with you. Take Lerkfish, for instance. Very respectful disagreement there. And you were just so, so snarky and mean. By the time I got to the bottom of your thread, I had a very different outlook to what you were getting across. And then I went back and reread your OP and saw it in a very different light.

Look, I don't take exception to the notion of it being a simple matter of calories in, calories out. Because I do think that for a vast majority of people, this really is the case, though that's way oversimplified. I also think that most people know this, so I don't even get why post it. It really almost just seems so unnecessary. Like it wouldn't occur to most people at some point who've ever struggled with their weight? Like that really isn't just a no duh piece of advice? And if someone thinks they're an exception, well, either they are, or they're in denial. Are you going to change their mind? Probably not. So, what good is it going to do anyway? I'm not advocating withholding it in deference to feelings. I'm advocating simply not posting it merely from a what the hell is the point viewpoint. I mean, you even acknowledge that it will get flames. You knew it going in. So, why? Especially if you're going to act like a dick to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

ETA just now, going through the thread, I can see the evidence of all the "understanding" you've helped bring to the subject. I see things like "First sensible post I've seen on the subject" and "blah blah blah not my fault blah blah blah" Yeah, Doctor, clearly, you've really helped a lot by posting this.

[Pithlet]

206. Oh, it just occured to me.

The bold that you took out of context? I wasn't saying YOU said that. That was part of a statement I was saying we should all be doing. That was part of a point I was making.

[Fedja]

208. Math is a losing battle

All in all, your argument was based on math, and you lose people quickly that way. They love settling for the concept that they're different, special, and that your math doesn't really apply to them. I agree to some extent, the calculation of calories is accompanied by hundreds of secondary and tertiary variables. All of these are impossible to take into account, and it's so easy to take a case which isn't analyzed ceteris paribus, and put it on a pedestal, seemingly invaluating your math. :)

Erm, enough rambling, here's my specific example:
For as long as I remember, I've not eaten any low-fat or fat-free foods. The milk I drink is outside the customary US fat content categories and can only be accurately described as "what the fuck was that" milk. I fry my food on butter or lard (yes, you read it right, proper 99% fat lard), and I eat 2-3 times per day at very irregular intervals, often gorging myself on food at midnight before I go to sleep.

Now to put my diet into perspective, I'm male, 6'1", 150 lbs. Obviously, we're missing some information which would explain how I keep my weight down, so I'll get right to the practical bits:
- I don't eat deep fried food (it's my non-scientific opinion that food shouldn't swim in fat)
- I don't drink soda (I do have the occasional coke, but it's like going to the movies, happens here and there) My main beverages of choice are natural orange juice and water
- I don't snack at all. If I'm hungry I have a full meal, if I'm not, I don't eat. What could be more simple?
- I don't eat sweets often. I just don't enjoy them, so my alternative to chocolate is salty pastry.
- I prefer cooked food over fried food (pick up any European cookbook and you'll see what I mean)

Half way there, here's the big ones:
- I walk for 15 minutes to and from work daily.
- I exercise once per week, and I mean really exercise, the type that makes me sweat like a waterfall and have sore muscles the day after. One hour a week is dedicated to showing my body that I can still beat it into submission.


So there it is, the whole dramatic lifestyle choice comes down to 7 points, and easy ones at that. If I had to drink skim milk or use butter from an aerosol can, I'd opt for being fat too. I love my food, I love to eat well, and I'm not giving that up. If you look at the common denominator of my food preferences, the only thing that stands out is an absence of sugar and deep frying. There's no drastic life changes, no horrible exercise routines. Simply avoiding the two food types most likely to kill you and moving regularly will make a world of a difference. Look back at the 50s, 60s, 70s, live like they did. Nobody was obese. Instead of sitting on your couch all day eating tons of "low fat ice cream", eat a steak and a salad and go for a walk. It's the lifestyle that makes you obese, food is just one of the variables in it.

[Pithlet]

210. No. It wasn't the math.

He went wrong exactly in the same way you are. "They love settling for the concept that they're different, special, and that your math doesn't really apply to them." Yeah, those dumb overweight people who don't know what their problem is. They just need you to come in and tell them what their problem is. Their problem is they don't know why they're fat. They're fat because they eat too much and they don't exercise. They just need you to explain that to them. They just think they're special, but if you explain it to them enough, they'll come around to your obviously superior way of thinking and see the light.

[Fedja]

213. hum?

Well, my post didn't include the aspect of someone who is obese intentionally, and loving it. That's certainly an option, but I didn't quite figure they'd be reading that far down the reply chain.

As for dumb, who said anyone was dumb? I just provided the only reliable recepy for keeping the ole scales in check that I've known to work. And where was I promoting a way of thinking in the first place? It was simply factual information, in some places posted with contrasting examples to illustrate its perceived value. God forbid someone might get more information to base their opinions on.

Oh no, let's all stick our heads back in the sand so as not to offend -you-. I have an idea, I'll go back under my rock and live my life quietly. After all, I'm not the one with a problem, and I'm fine. You and all the bitter wankers out there that get defensive without even considering that someone was trying to be helpful can eat yourselves to death, I promise not to lose sleep over it.

[Pithlet]

214. Why would you assume I was overweight?

I'm not, BTW. I would never, in a million years, tell overweight people how I manage not to be that way. I couldn't even imagine doing such a thing. To presume that because I'm not overweight that makes me some sort of expert, for one thing. I think people who think that are ridiculous. Imagine. Listing all the things *I* eat, and the amount of exercise I get, trying to make the point that it's all about exercise and eating less. Because it's the math, you know.

Yeah, I don't imagine your comment about them thinking they were special was meant to make them feel *smart*. Whatever.

[Fedja]

216. WEll

I assumed you were either overweight or had battled it in the family because you made an irrationally emotional response to what was a bland post by me. You looked for things to be offended at, and when you did not find any, you accused me of calling people stupid.

My case wasn't so much a case of me personally, but of my culture. My country loves their fat food, many drink milk that was inside a cow not 10 minutes before. The reason I analyzed my own routine was to identify what it is that stands out nutritionally. I live in Slovenia, and I used to live in Arkansas. And goddamn it, there's tons to be learned from the difference in perspective. Refusing insight is ignorance, however much you'd love to paint me as a stuck up hater.

I realize that losing weight takes you out of a comfort zone. I smoke and have failed to quit many times over. I know how hard it is to make a drastic change in life.

This is where people lean on the excuse that they're "different" with math. It's the same as my last cigarette, over and over. What I was saying is that one doesn't need to starve himself or chew on nothing but fresh carrots all day, that there are cultures out there that stuff themselves with great tasting food all the time, and they manage to keep the weight down.

Your excuse isn't that they're special. Your particular escape is that anyone who says anything about it is a big meanie. I couldn't care less if the issue is in your family or not, or where you became so passionately involved. As long as you're twisting my words and hoping to invalidate them by that, you're no different, and whoever is battling obesity in your life probably isn't benefiting from your "input" either.

[FlaGranny]

221. If losing weight were as

easy as quitting smoking - I did that years ago. Just decided to stop smoking and I did. It was tough for 5 or 6 months and then it was over. EASY!

[Fedja]

245. I can immagine it's worse, yes

Was only pointing out that I have an addiction I'm fighting as well, and under no circumstances would I ever think that someone's lazy for not shaking their weight. I also understand the issue of intolerance, as smokers in Europe are dealing with a fair share of it currently.

I think all the intolerance toward people with weight problems is part of the reason why it's so hard for them to get help. As any collective that gets pushed around they get defensive and sometimes ridiculously so. When it comes to the point where any discussion on the topic is picked apart ad nauseam to identify possible offensive tidbits, there can be no discussion anymore, and the entire topic becomes a taboo. We all know how well that works for resolving issues.

[FlaGranny]

262. I hope you

didn't think I was trying to be snarky. When I reread my post, it COULD be taken that way. Just making a "matter of fact" statement.

The way this board is lately, I'll have to remember to put a smiley when I'm just making a comment. ;-)

[Fedja]

263. nahh :)

It's all good, just figured you may have missed the point a bit. I write these posts at work where I cram 'em into 1 minute, so the points sometimes do fail to get across.

As someone wise whose name I can't remember once said, reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it. I tend to stay loopy to avoid the problems. :)

[BlueIris]

187. K & R. nt

[mistertrickster]

189. I was a high school wrestler. When I wrestled at my heaviest weight,

I was 5'9" and 132 lbs.

The thing I can't figure out is how I could eat a bowl of cereal in the morning, skip lunch, wrestle for three hours (burning at least 900 calories), and have a single hamburger for dinner and not lose weight.

Similarly, I heard about a guy jogging across the United States. He ran about 30 miles every day. After several months, he had dropped forty pounds.

But guess what? After that, he didn't lose any more weight.

I've heard this "a calorie is a calorie" crap before. It's true in the sense that Obama and Bush are the same because they're both politicians.

What kind of calories one eats, when one eats them, and a whole host of other factors come into play in the real world of weight gain.

[mistertrickster]

190. BTW, I think the entire idea of "losing weight" is flawed.

One wants to lose FAT, not weight.

Using the absurd BMI chart, Barry Sanders was massively obese.

In reality, he was heavily muscled, which I think is the ideal.

[Ms. Toad]

204. Not quite "massively" obese

On the BMI scale, he was obese at 5'8" - but only by 4 lbs - in other words just barely (not massively).

All the BMI scale does is collapse the two dimensional height and weight charts into a single number. Just like the old charts didn't take into account relative amounts of muscle and bone, neither does the newer BMI scale. It was advertised in misleading ways when it was first introduced - and implied that it was related to body fat. It isn't - except as a one-size-fits-all estimation of body fat on a generic body.

As long as you understand it is a tool, it isn't any better or worse than the old charts.

[bonito]

191. If I can interject for those who will listen

MSM in cristal form only I buy it in bulk not from china, I have no longer any joint pain whatsoever anywhere!!! pink finger nails again! and oh yea my apatite is nothing what it used to be and I'm satisfied fitting into those old jeans again.

well it's just me bonito ya know telling it as I experience it, take it or leave it.

Peace and love...

[daveskilt]

192. First sensible post on this topic. I see the results of obesity every day - and the hear the excuses

I run a nursing home with 100-120 patients at any given time. I see a lot of 50 and 60 year olds die far too young after going to great lengths to sneak in foods they know will kill them.

People in kidney failure at age 40 due to obesity. We can help these people, they don't need to die. So long as they stop justifying their choices with nonsense about how their body is so different from anyone elses and they can't help being 300lbs. I have told people they will die if they keep eating 10 microwave burritos and 4 litres of coke for lunch every day (that their loving family bring in for them against medical advice) and seen it make no difference. I have watched as people slowly lost limb after limb to diabetes and finally whats left of them can't take it any more and something finally gives and they die - age 50 with their only significant weight losses coming from amputations.

Its about health. Obese people need help - not value judgements and certainly not justifications about how society should accept them for the way they are.

[bread_and_roses]

197. I appreciate that you are trying to be non-judgemental, BUT

by reducing weight gain/loss to a simple matter of inputs/outputs well within an individual's control, I think the post has the effect of reinforcing the stereotype that "they" just lack the self-discipline to control their "input." Although I do not think your intent was to be judgemental - the opposite, in fact - I think that's too simple, as attested by numerous posts above. And since they've raised many of the more abstruse physiological issues, I want to address a different aspect.

For the record, I am well over fifty, not at all over-weight and the ONLY time in my life that I became even slightly so was when I was working at an institution, including over-night shifts (often several in a row, and thus was eating a lot of institutional food). It was a terrible and badly run institution and so the food was cheap and highly processed. When I changed jobs, that weight disappeared. But the fact that I am not over-weight is a matter of pure luck. I eat a lot (probably at least 3000 calories a day, although I can't be sure since I don't count them). I don't eat particularly healthily, although I don't eat much processed or salty food - from preference. I eat far larger portions than those recommended, more meat than recommended, whole milk, dessert, frequent snacks. I am not particularly active - rather sedentary, in fact.

Like I said, pure luck. And I find it utterly amazing and really, ridiculous, that anyone should be expected to live forever on "three 300 calorie meals per day, plus X (can't remember that number) snack calories." Really, how many of those here who are not overweight have ever tried such a diet? It is asking people to live in a constant state of stress and deprivation. How many can do that? Who can blame them if they fail? Not I, for sure. Most especially since for some even that doesn't work.

I also get furious at the sanctimonious who blame parents for "using food as a reward or to quiet children" - something I've heard a lot. I have never known a parent who to some extent did not use food as a reward or to quiet a child - or even to get a child out of one's hair for a while. And outside of the pretty extensive personal experience among extended family and friends that we all have, I spent a part of my working life working with the parents of young children. And some of those children were elfin and slim, some muscular and lean, some chubby, some seriously overweight. Regardless.

Others have mentioned here also how impossible it is to eat a healthy diet if you are poor or even low-income. On top of that, try managing a child's obesity if you are poor. It's something that even those with every resource fail at.

For me, no expert, just an ordinary reader and observer, all the evidence says that humans are very complex creatures - in their physiology, psychology, endocrinology, community-norm-ology or any other "ology" that one can think of. I doubt we know the answer yet. But I think we can be sure that "common-sense" is not the answer.

edit, spelling

[CTyankee]

231. Do you think the reason there is not this problem in Western European countries is due to

their socialist governments, in that they have universal health care and very little poverty? Plus, their diets are devoted to fresh foods. We are fed on overprocessed foods that are addictive to some people, but not to others, which is why not everyone in our culture is obese. I'd be interested in knowing the diabetes rates in those countries in comparison to ours, for instance...

[bread_and_roses]

240. I don't know but it would not surprise me to learn that's a factor

I think someone above mentioned a study showing overlap between obesity and poverty maps? I have not seen it myself, but again, it would not surprise me. Recently, I believe I read of a study showing high correlation between poverty and incidence of HIV infection? Again, that would not surprise me. I'm not a scholar - just a wide-ranging reader. But again and again we see the effect of poverty on other social problems.

Certainly, I think that highly processed cheap foods (think 3/$1.00 boxed mac&cheese - something poor parents often rely on for a "filler" when they are broke) desensitize the palate to very high levels of salt and sweet - surely not good for weight balance. I remember when I worked at that awful institution I mentioned. The children there were accustomed to drinking a powder "lemonade" that I thought tasted utterly vile- cloyingly sweet with a nasty chemical under-taste. One day I brought in regular frozen lemonade to make for them (which I find too sweet too, but does not compare to this awful powder stuff). None of them could drink it without adding large spoons of sugar - it was too "sour" for them.

[The Doctor.]

258. I made mention of, but perhaps shoul have put more emphasis on

just what kind of obstacles people face that non-overweight people can't understand.

You make a funny point though; "ridiculous, that anyone should be expected to live forever on three 300 calorie meals per day, plus X (can't remember that number) snack calories."... not funny because it's 'dumb', quite the contrary; it's funny because it seems like common sense, yet it's exactly the type of diet that does extend lifespan.

Check this out;

Scientists Find Gene Linking Lifespan to Calorie Restriction
By David McAlary
Washington
02 May 2007

McAlary report - Download 319k audio clip
Listen to McAlary report audio clip

U.S. researchers have discovered a gene that promotes longer life in earthworms that eat much less than normal. Humans have similar genes, and VOA's David McAlary reports that, if they work the same way as in the worms, a drug that mimics them might someday, if not extend life, at least make it healthier.

Studies since the 1930s have shown that animals from fruitflies to monkeys increase their lifespan as much as 40 percent if they subsist on a near starvation diet. They also have less risk of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease and ailments caused by nerve degeneration.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-05/2007-05-02-voa69.cfm

Both counter-intuitive and fascinating, isn't it?

So, yes... a person who takes in fewer than normal calories, by alot, can extend lifespan.

[celloise]

201. Perplexed

What has gotten everyone so riled up about obesity all the sudden? As if we don't have enough civil rights issues to fight for, we now pick one to fight amongst ourselves over? I'm all for some disagreement, but I just don't see why so much hatefulness and derision has been directed at large folks.

To me, it's as if people are calling obesity the scourge of the lazy, fast-food-eating, uneducated, living-at-home crowd. What the hell? What an idiotic caricature. It's the same as saying that gay men are just asking for AIDS and we shouldn't help them since they've already made their bed and need to lie in it. Utterly ridiculous. Everything isn't so simple as cold hard math. Sure, if you are heavy, cut down on the burgers. But for some people, that's simply not an option. It is expensive and time-consuming to eat well. It is NO COINCIDENCE that McDonald's and other fast food joints open up shop in the poorest neighborhoods.

So, stop hating and start helping, or at least start understanding. Skinny people, more often than not, have won the genetic lottery. More power to them. But there certainly is no need to discriminate against your heavier kindred. (I'm not a skinny minny, myself, but I'm pretty certain I could run circles around plenty of the thinner people on here who are hating.)

Finally, just remember this playground tip: When one finger is pointing at someone else, you have three fingers pointing right back at you.

[Ms. Toad]

205. The Canadian airlines decision

requiring that airlines flying within Canada provide some overweight people with a second seat at no additional cost. The discussion got pretty nasty, and spawned lost more threads.

[CTyankee]

228. I think one of problems is that this is considered a "fairness" issue.

Air travel is what I have in mind. The argument is whether, if you pay for a seat and half of it is taken up by an obese person, is that fair? I've seen this play out on crowded flights. I'm not taking any sides here, just pointing out that this may be one big reason for all the fussing. What is the solution?:shrug:

[celloise]

247. Tempest in a tea kettle

What a bunch of nonsense to fuss over. I mean, seriously, how often does someone who is really obese take to the air anyway. We have far bigger (no pun intended) problems that we should be trying to find a solution for -- this debate is just plain strange. I'm sure the freepers are loving it.

[Dogmudgeon]

217. Food is the new Sex

Why the hell there is so much contention over body weight on DU, I'll never understand.

--p!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

218. More information about hypothyroidism.

www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

Excellent website with all the complaints I've had about doctors who won't listen, and much more.

I've been hypothyroid since I was 12 years old, and have taken Armour Thyroid since then. My mother had the same condition and I inherited it from her. She got it when she was 12 too.

There are millions of people with autoimmune disorders. Hashimoto's thyroiditis is one of those and it's the most common cause of hypothyroidism.


And in the meantime, can we ignore the sanctimonious people who insist on telling us how we should live our lives? I don't drink Cokes and I don't overeat.

I went to a weightloss physician and wasted my money. They put me on a very strict 500 calorie a day diet and I could only lose a few pounds and then hit a plateau.

That's because my metabolism slowed down even more on restricted calories.
The first two weeks of South Beach were hell because I ate protein and fat only and NO CARBS. It was absolute hell. I was full but still hungry. I could tell the diff within a few hours of starting it.


There are two topics that really bring out the sanctimonious shitheads.
The first one is: "If you really wanted a job, you could get one."
Second: "If you really wanted to lose weight, you could lose weight."

:wtf: :wtf:

:banghead:

[Fedja]

219. Black&White

As with any other discussion, there is no absolutes. Not everyone is overweight by choice, not everyone can help it, and not everyone is a bigot.

One thing that's worth noting though, is that statistically, obesity is a health issue in the US moreso than many other cultures. While many people may battle it as an illness, it is largely a consequence of the culture and its lifestyle. That assumption leads to the assumption that many who are overweight can help it if they want to. For these people, any information on how to control their weight can only be beneficial in their search for the causes and solutions to their problem.

[CTyankee]

225. I clicked on your link because I wanted to know if this is a problem in

other countries. Something about it being a "worldwide" problem was mentioned. Is there more information about this internationally?

I say this because in my trips to Italy and Spain I don't see any obese people. Are they being treated correctly for this condition while we in the U.S. are not?

The Spanish and Italians are often seen at all times of the day and night in cafes, eating and drinking. It isn't heavy eating, tho, so maybe they have this pattern of grazing constantly so they never get really hungry. Does eating several small meals a day help this condition?

[chatnoir]

233. Living in Europe I cannot recall seeing anyone obese

Occasionally slightly overweight but that was the extent of it. And that was the case in any country I traveled to when there.

Coming back to the States was a shock as I'd almost forgotten obesity existed at all.

Mr chatnoir, who is European and only came to the US a few years ago, felt it had much to do with all the hormones and chemicals in our food here.

[FlaGranny]

220. We probably all know the math.

What we don't know is how to feel satisfied with much less food than we need to maintain a higher weight. The reason many of us struggle with our weight is because there is a bottomless pit in our stomachs that is never satisfied. The less you eat, the worse it becomes. It's not easily understandable by a person who has never had a weight problem. Just imagine the feeling of skipping lunch and at dinnertime you are famished and dinner is late. Then imagine feeling like that all the time. The person who could invent a delicious food with little or no calories would become an instant, overnight millionaire. For 20 months straight I maintained a low calorie diet and slowly lost weight. Then I just could not take the deprivation any longer. Now I've been months trying to get re-started on that deprivation diet. It's really not much fun.

Just a thought, has there ever been a study on stomach emptying time in fat people? I've always had the feeling that this hollow, empty, hungry sensation is gastrointestinal. Years ago I had some gastritis and the doc gave me, I believe it was Combid, and suddenly I wasn't uncontrollably hungry any more - hunger pangs were gone. I believe that drug has been taken off the market. Even with all the struggle over the years I have managed to keep my weight from getting too out of control, but I've never, since becoming an adult, been able to eat what I wanted to eat when I've wanted to eat it.

P.S. Read an article (I believe it was yesterday) that overweight women want more sex than skinny women. I can believe it. ;-)

[D-Lee]

224. EXCEPT for diabetics and those with imparied glucose metabolisms

Unless they go low carb (say under 30 g per day), they likely cannot use glucose ingested over their personal carb limit and it will be stored as fat NO MATTER how many calories they ingest. For those with lesser problems with insulin, the glycemic index might help but it is not sufficient for diabetics.

Go to www.Diabetes-Book.com, click on "read it online" and start reading ...

Indeed, before insulin, low carb was the treatment of choice for diabetics.

If you wonder about the "eat all the carbs you want" approach, look at the corporate sponsorship page of the American Diabetes Association and of the American Dietetic Association.

[AllieB]

237. Thanks for your input.

Finally some doctors are coming around to the reality that many of the studies around heart disease and diabetes are bunk funded by corporate interests like Cargill, General Mills, and ADM, as well as Big Pharma. Diabetes and heart disease exploded as a result of the low-fat craze of the '80s, but there's still very few doctors who will go against the status quo.

[ZombieHorde]

255. I am overweight because of the choices that I make.

I used to be in 'good shape' because of the choices that I made.