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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 08:55 AM
Original message
Economic Fetish Rant: Look at the Big Picture and Be Amazed How Badly "They" Screwed This Up
Edited on Mon Nov-24-08 09:43 AM by HamdenRice
I should preface this by saying that if you think that the collapse of capitalism was preordained and inevitable, or if you think that the stock market is just a casino, or that peak oil will lead inevitably to the collapse of civilization, you probably should stop reading here. Our basic assumptions about how the world works are probably different. I'm in favor of a mixed system that leans heavily toward the socialist side, but that doesn't mean I buy into some claims about the system that I consider improbable.

The big picture of our global economic system was that, however irrationally it was structured, however unfair it was, however wasteful, however much poverty still exists, indeed, however murderous it has been to many, the last 20 years or so had seen an increase in what some progressive economists like Amartya Sen call (somewhat oddly, even sarcastically) "opulence." In normal conversation, opulence means something like ostentatious wealth, but in econo-talk it simply means well being through acquiring commodities -- the ability of people to feed their children, buy clothing against the elements and find shelter. There was enormous poverty, especially in the politically unstable parts of Africa, and in south Asia, but there had been a strong growth in the "getting by" working classes and an increase in the size of the middle classes, and hence an increase in opulence or well being, in places as different as East Asia, Brazil, India, more parts of Africa than you would guess -- and above all in China.

Financially, we often hear sensational, scary statistics about "debt", but debt to me is simply the flip side of savings. Global savings are the excess of goods, services and human energy and creativity over what has been consumed, expressed in dollars, and debt is simply the investment of some of those savings into the production efforts or consumption of others.

Some of the best reporting on the financial crisis has been by the usually non-technical, non-political, "This American Life" on NPR. In one of their first reports on the crisis, they talked about the $70 trillion pool of global savings, or money, looking for a place to be invested -- $70 trillion that represented the excess of human energy, goods, and services produced over what was consumed, an excess that could have been deployed to find alternative energy, provide clean water in poor countries, buy appropriate-technology agricultural implements where people find it hard to grow enough food, whatever. While a certain amount of that $70 trillion was owned by "fat cats," like hedge fund managers and CEOs, you'd be amazed how much of it represented the excess of rice produced over rice consumed by Chinese farmers we would consider poor, and cheap manufactured goods produced over cheap manufactured goods consumed, by Chinese factory workers -- those farmers and workers being among the thriftiest people on earth -- and those surpluses therefore being held by Chinese banks and the Chinese foreign exchange authority.

Another big chunk of it represents all that gas we buy from the middle east, held by middle east bankers and the big international oil companies. I would like to write an entirely separate post someday about how the oil companies (and their protectors, Bush and Cheney) are probably the most directly responsible entities in the world for this catastrophe by mercilessly gouging the entire American energy consuming public from the time of the alleged pipeline shut downs in the wake of Katrina, until recently, when big oil seemed to become scared shitless of what they've done and lowered the price of gas practically to Clinton era levels -- which gouging was the underlying economic, family budget issue that pushed so many already stretched families into foreclosure.

Putting aside how unfair the distribution of these surpluses is, the existence of these surpluses should have been a sign of what could have had a healthy global economy. Lots of spare capacity to solve our problems.

Instead, much of that $70 trillion was invested in MacMansions -- actually, in the U.S. real estate market in general. Moreover, the bankers managed to do it in a way that has caused a financial collapse -- pretty much for no underlying material reason. We've terrified the holders of that $70 trillion into withdrawing it suddenly, not just from the real estate market, but from virtually every potential field of investment. There have been lots of posts lately in the liberal blogosphere about consumers having their credit card limits lowered or their cards canceled; no matter what the card company tells you, that's the effect of one part of the $70 trillion in savings being terrified into not buying the banks' "credit card receivable asset backed securities."

What's so fucked up about our current situation is that it is not a catastrophe based on shortage.

That's the big picture. "They" blew the management of $70 trillion in excess human global savings.

It is not that there is not enough stuff to go around, such that we have to live in poverty, but there's a very real probability that most of us are going to have to live in poverty anyway for some time (think: Argentina or Russia after their currency crises). In a depression of this kind, it's not that farms and factories disappear, or that our ability to produce stuff somehow ends. It's that the complex, fantastical, imaginary systems for circulating money grind to a halt and for reasons that, deep in their hearts, even economists don't understand, the ceasing of the circulation of that imaginary stuff leads to a grand ceasing of the circulation of the real stuff.

That's the puzzle and horror of modern depressions, compared to, say, 17th century famines. They aren't caused by scarcity; they're caused by fear, the greed and stupidity of business leaders, and the sudden inability of our system of symbols, called money, to coordinate our activities. We're like a global human body trying to walk while having an epileptic seizure. That's why they are fundamentally surreal.

Karl Marx had several concepts to describe this: alienation, objectification and fetishism.

Today, we are likely to think of the word "fetish" in a sexual way -- i.e., a person has a fetish for a body part or sexual activity. But anthropologically, the word fetish refers to a little god -- a piece of stone or wood that some indigenous people somewhere worship as though it were a real being with supernatural powers and procreative powers over these same people. Perhaps hurricane season is coming or the wives are infertile and terror spreads through the "tribe." In many places, people make offerings of food, beeswax, incense, animal blood and other things of value to placate the "little god," in the hope that the fetish object will smile kindly on them.

But of course it's the people who created the fetish, and not vice versa. Those people could, if they freed their minds, smash the fetish, burn it or destroy it -- or perhaps best of all, ignore it. The people have created this little thing and given it power over their lives. They have taken their wonderful human power and agency, and turned it into an object -- through objectification -- that is outside of themselves.

Then they surrender to that objectified power. That process is an example of what Marx (the young Marx, the philosopher Marx) called "alienation." You take your own "God given," wonderful human powers and capacities, and you give it to some thing, "a little god," and then you tell yourself that that thing has power over you -- even though you created it, and you could, if you chose, control it. You alienate yourself from your own talent, power and agency.

It's sad and pathetic but it's something we humans do too often.

Well, when it comes to the financial system and the circulation of money, we're hardly better than some native, squatting in some impoverished village worshiping a fetish. We're exactly the same. An imaginary system of numbers in computers (most money isn't printed anyway) has gone haywire, and we're going to let it impoverish us.

I can't believe they fucked this thing up so badly.

It's not like there's not enough to go around. It's not like the factories have been bombed or the farm fields sewn with salt. It's not like the factory workers, nurses, teachers, drivers, cooks, writers, and plumbers suddenly woke up and forgot how to operate a lathe, comfort the sick, teach children, drive a truck, make pasta, compose an essay or fix a leaky drain pipe, but it's likely that millions of them are going to be idled. Numbers in computers are about to plunge the world into at best a sharp short impoverization and at worse a prolonged global depression.

The $70 trillion in surpluses is still around, although it's been marked down in value quite a bit by our own fear, terror and panic. There's still enough to go around -- real stuff represented by that $70 trillion -- at least until the oil runs out, but even then if we had used the $70 trillion wisely, we could have transitioned to powering our society with something other than fermented dead dinosaurs and swamp slime from hundreds of millions of years ago.

But "they", the bankers, really fucked us up big time.

So now there's really only one thing left to do -- if it can be done. The next president, President Obama, is going to have to ignore our numerical fetish objects residing in the cyberspace that exist in the banks of the world that are telling us we can't work, produce, and live. Franklin Roosevelt did it by just hiring people on the government payroll and putting the country back to work, but even he wasn't bold enough to do it on the scale necessary until World War II broke out.

I don't know what President elect Obama can do come January. The massive jobs program sounds like a good start, but I'm a bit worried that some of the high priests of our numerical fetish are being re-installed in the temple. It looks likely that Citibank is going to collapse, which will send more terror through the cyber channels of the fetish worshipers than we've seen even in this financial catastrophe. (Why is Robert Rubin, who did some good things under Clinton, but then helped wreck Citigroup, being invited back into the temple?) If the collapse comes, if I were president, I would fully nationalize Citibank, ask for an investment of a few trillion from our Chinese and middle eastern "friends" and start lending with the People's Bank of America, and then I'd put our society on a stringent diet to turn us into savers again, which diet would have to eventually end up with an 80% reduction in military spending -- that is, if I were president and there were not a lunatic right wing in this country that has already been calling Obama a closet socialist, secret Muslim terrorist, a Marxist, Manchurian candidate and worse, which is to say, this is, unfortunately, scarcely imaginable. It's as though the lunatic right wing has anticipated everything President Obama will have to do to clean up George Bush's complete and total catastrophe, and pre-defined it as treason.

Until January, we're still stuck, however, with the fetish object approach. We'll continue to offer hundreds of billions of dollars worth of the equivalent of beeswax, food, incense, and blood, at the alter of our own global fetish object, and maybe, if we're lucky, the "little god" will smile on us, and the terror will subside.
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Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R!
Well done :applause:

Will be checking back on this thread after work today.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
2. K&R!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. Another EXCELLENT analysis by Hamden!! Recommended
I've always thought Free Market Fundamentalism as essentially little different then the superstitious fetishisms of traditional societies. A powerful tool in society's wealth-making toolbox, the market mechanism, has become fetishized into a god. Now this fetish risks fatally damaging our society like how the Aztec's massive orgies of human sacrifice damaged their society.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Economist joke
Edited on Mon Nov-24-08 10:58 AM by HamdenRice
I listened to too many free market academics in my life. There was a joke about them that goes like this:

A biologist, a physicist and an economist were in a shipwreck, and washed up on a deserted island. There was no food on the island except some crates of canned goods the three managed to take with them in their life raft from the sinking ship.

Problem was, they did not have a can opener. So the three begin proposing ways of opening the cans, each from their own perspective.

The biologist says, there are lots of sharks in the shallow waters, so let me cut myself, get some blood on the can and attract a shark to bite the can open. He tried this and it didn't work. No shark bit the can.

The physicist said, if I take all of our eye glasses and make a powerful lens, I could concentrate the suns rays and burn the can open like a laser. Unfortunately, the lenses and sun were not powerful enough to cut the metal.

Then it was the economists turn. He said, "You scientists are so foolish, with your complicated plans. There's a simple, economic way to open the cans. First, assume a can opener ..."

Yup, it's basically a religion.

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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
This is a fantastic analysis of our situation. Really good. I learned a great deal from it.
:patriot:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. Always a pleasure ...

It's always a pleasure to read your insights.

K&R
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thanks
and shameless self kick for the evening crowd.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Wow. Problem is, the people who still have power won't be hurt enough to do anything to change
The Manhattan media and financial elites, and the DC political-defense-spook elites, are still so insulated with opulence - yes, that is the right term for it -- that they barely know what's really going on, and could care less about Ohio.

Then, there's the Gulf petroligarchs and post-Mao commissars looking at the world from the 150th floor of the gleaming futurist towers in Dubai and Shanghai. Like they have any incentive to give it up and invest surplus value responsibly.

It's in their interest to just starve us out and consolidate what's left of the world. That is, unless the world gets them first.



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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. I think two out of those three...
I should preface this by saying that if you think that the collapse of capitalism was preordained and inevitable, or if you think that the stock market is just a casino, or that peak oil will lead inevitably to the collapse of civilization, you probably should stop reading here.


I don't think peak oil will lead inevitably to the collapse of civilization, but I do agree with the other two propositions. Nevertheless I always read your posts all the way when I happen upon them, and always gain surplus value from it. (Sorry.) I admire your ability to maintain idealism, possibly at a greater age than my own, and find this post wise and good. Thank you always, HR.
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exman Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. gratitude from an old timer
Thank you for your insight.I was trying to explain to my wife and unemployed children. I hope I don't end up homeless again . Hey, is there a glossary around somewhere? My generation blogged on a mimeograph machine. You speak a different language.
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Welcome to DU, exman.
I think you've found a great post to begin a hopefully long and rewarding time here. :hi:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Welcome to DU. I also go back to the mimeograph era
Because there was one German company that made so many of those machines, we used to call mimeo's something like "Geistetners" (sp?).
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. DU glossary. Try this link
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
60. The du glossary doesn't contain such vocabulary as the poster is asking about:
e.g. economic "fetishism"

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
55. Try this:
http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/e.htm

Fetishism

Fetishism, in ancient religions, meant the belief that inanimate objects such as icons or trees, clouds, etc., possess human properties; in Marxism, the belief that commodities possess human properties.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. Thanks, and good to hear your opinion, as usual!
:hi:
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
11. Which Is Why ONLY Impeachment Can Save The Economy, The Constitution, ...
... (perhaps) the Obama Presidency, and Our National Soul.

Because it's the ONLY thing that would set enough of the lunatic right wing back on its heels -- allowing Obama to operate.

And it's the ONLY thing that would signal to our "friends" in the world that we are morally worthy of walking along side them to a better economic future.

And it's the ONLY thing that can cure the national malaise caused by the loss of our late, once-great Constitution -- which can only be ENFORCED, as opposed to being "reasserted" or "restored" (euphemisms for "letting it die and rot").

The DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy -- particularly its "standard bearer" Obama -- simply needs to put down Nero's fiddle and pick up their own political pluck. It can be done right now -- over in less than a week. We can even have Congress appoint Obama to start early (oh, "yes we can").

Or we can stay the course with the "fear of divisiveness" plan that's been working so well thus far. (Hint: It's the impeachment for torture, war crimes, and incompetence that's really "post partisan.")

Impeachment remains our only moral, patriotic option.

---
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
13. I wish you had devoted this level analysis to the situation BEFORE manically supporting the bailout
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 07:34 AM by Romulox
"Then they surrender to that objectified power. "

By demanding trillions of dollars be handed over in the dead of night to the self-same individuals who orchestrated this mess, you mean? :wtf:

The OP reads like revisionist history.


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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Have you been able to use an ATM ...
since the crisis started? So what makes you think it didn't work for the purposes for which it was enacted?

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. so, we're supposed to believe that the absence of the worst case scenario
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 09:45 AM by bigtree
. . . the hysterical claims that if we didn't pass the bailout that ATMs would stop working . . . that's supposed to be proof that wherever Paulson has shoveled almost all of the first $350 billion forestalled that worst case scenario.

It's laughable how much supporters of the bailout are able to explain how the credit system is supposed to work but can't point to any SPECIFIC place where the money was spent and show us how giving away that money (in the form of handouts and buyouts) actually worked to eliminate that worst case scenario.

Paulson isn't even following the original plan that he sold Congress to get them to hand over the money. All of the brilliant dissertations on economics from supporters of the bailout hasn't yet explained EXACTLY where the money spent so far actually went. It's some arrogance to expect that anyone should believe that there is some supreme logic behind the Treasury Depts. crap shoot approach without being able to show PRECISELY where our money was spent, what it was spent on, and how those expenditures DIRECTLY affect the market.

To me, it looks like nothing more than a gang of gamblers (gambling with our money) with their 'confidence' boosted by the re-gaming of their crap shoot. It's an insult to rational thinking folk to suggest that they just can't understand all the complexities of the system when there is so little accountability from the folks spending our money.

And, to offer that "the ATMs are still working" and that the fact that we're still able to draw our money out as proof the bailout worked, would be hilarious if it wasn't such a sad reflection of the inanity of the money moving game which is played far outside of the reach of the majority of the folks who are financing this re-gaming of the money market.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. This has been explained over and over again
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 10:06 AM by HamdenRice
but your world view prevents you from absorbing those facts. The money was not "given away."

The $250 billion first tranche was used to purchase preferred stock in a handful of the largest commercial banks. That preferred stock has to be repurchased at face value -- assuming the banks survive. If they don't survive, the common stock holders are wiped out, and the preferred stock holders (the government) becomes the common stock holders, which, along the exercise of millions of warrants also issued to the government, means the bank becomes nationalized.

Everyone with any training in economics -- from the right to the left (see Democracy Now's covereage) -- agrees that if Citibank had been allowed to collapse like Lehman, there would have been an immediate and complete collapse of inter bank credit and yes, you would not have been able to cash a check or draw money from your account or use an ATM.

Something between one and two trillion has been authorized by the Fed as a credit facility. Most of that has been used to purchase commercial paper, which has a maturity of only 30 to 180 days. Assuming the commercial paper/money market doesn't collapse before Obama is sworn in, much of that will be paid back before inauguration day, although the Fed is likely to continue recycling it in the commercial paper market.

Another Fed credit facility was a reciprocal currency facility between the Fed and the central banks of Europe and Asia, which hardly seems like a "casino gamble."

That's something FDR did, but like most right wing conservatives, you seem to be opposed to the things FDR and the New Deal did.

Most commentators want more transparency from the Fed and Treasury, and agree that Paulson has been extremely ineffective with the powers he was granted, but few commentators (outside of Ron Paul right wing extremists) think that letting the banks collapse would not have led to an immediate Great Depression.

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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. "That's something FDR did ..."

This is the part that torques my brain into a screaming, gooey mess.

A lot of this is out of the FDR playbook, the one written after all the experimentation to figure out what the hell to do. FDR screwed himself in '37/'38 by playing it too conservative, and we, hopefully, learned from that. But, all over the place, I'm seeing right-wing anti-New Deal talking points shouted out by people that frankly should know better. Many self-described liberals in this country have taken on the mantle of contrarian qua contrarian.



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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I was following you to the point where you accused me of thinking like a 'right-wing conservative
The fact is that they've re-gamed a bad system and are expecting it to right itself by returning to business as usual. The root causes of the debt have yet to be addressed and are still accelerating, albeit at a slower rate because of some efforts by some of the large lenders to renegotiate some loans. But, the rate of home foreclosures is still rising.

If the government intends to serve as a perpetual piggybank for every instance where institutions like Citibank mismanage their debt, these institutions don't need to make good decisions. Since Citibank has joined the ranks 'too big to fail' gang they can act as if they were some national institution instead of the despicable, inept money grubbers they are in reality. Next we'll be hearing how 'patriotic' it is to keep them in business. If it's such a no-brainer to prop these pathetic institutions up with public money, why don't we just buy them all?

Then we can increase the power of the Fed (who will get a perpetual slush fund to manage the new government property) so they can lord over their acquired wealth and keep bit players in the game, biding their time until they can declare enough of an 'emergency' to acquire even more of these credit institutions. Nothing at all could go wrong with the government posing as a willing dumping ground for these (deliberately) mismanaged institutions' bad debt?

This isn't just a one or two-shot deal where we set right these institutions and then things go swimmingly from there. We're setting up a welfare state for lenders under the pretext that they'll be more effective, but there hasn't been a bit of effort to get them to operate more responsibly or to comprehensively address the causes of the bad debt we're now so willing to assume responsibility for with public money.

Now, Citibank is in about the worst shape of all the banks who have been gifted with the public bailout. The claim that they will be able to buy back the paper Paulson bought is not taking into account the fact that we really don't know what the extent of theirs or anyone else's debt will be (or is, for that matter).

Institutions like Citicorp, who are now under the government wing, will take MORE risks now, not less. And the effect of their favored position will drive down competition and make them even larger and even more dependent.

I like the FDR model, but aren't most of FDRs regulations (and more) already in place? There's something inherently wrong with how we're managing these institutions TODAY. Hearkening back to FDR for a solution as if we're just now considering regulating these institutions for the first time ignores the chaos we experienced in the banking industry some 20 years ago.

The reason we have such an intractable crisis is because we've allowed the government to step in and cherry-pick which institutions are critical; of course, they chose the huge ones over the smaller institutions and those grow even larger and more influential (less risky to investors) as government provides the backstop.

But, this 'crisis' would not have as much of an effect if the government had spread it's 'concern' out over several smaller institutions and encouraged their stability and growth, thus, minimizing the effect of the failure of one of these smaller lending hubs. It's ludicrous to have institutions so large that their failure alone threatens to wreck the FDIC.

With this action by the Fed, done in the profound absence of any significant remedy for the root causes of the debt (both institutional and regulatory mistakes, as well as the effects of the faltering economy), the end result can only be a stalling of deeper problems ahead.

This was a reckless, opportunistic approach which assumes that shifting the debt from these institutions to the government (and back again?) will make them responsible and productive. To me, this is just doubling down on failure. Typical of government.


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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
56. You're defending the bailout by listing programs unrelated to the bailout.
Also the debt-for-equity swaps (and I distinctly remember you arguing against my suggestion that we structure any bailout along those lines) weren't undertaken for weeks in many cases. There was ample time for a better bill to be passed. All of the other programs, such as funding the commercial paper market, could have been undertaken in the interim. But because we rushed the horrendous bailout through at the barrel of a gun, taxpayers got the absolute worst debt-for-equity deal of any country. In addition, transparency was completely neglected. And now we can see that the outcome has been predictably disastrous.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. To be clear ...

The previous respondent has been referring to "$7 trillion," which is a number associated with programs unrelated to "the bailout."

The conflation occurred prior to Hamden's response.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
63. specially when, pre-bailout, posters who said "atms are still working, credit
card co's are still offering credit, my local credit union will still loan me money" were told in no uncertain terms the potential bailout had nothing to do with such pedestrian stuff, but with weightier matters -

interbank lending, libor & suchlike.

stuff that ordinary folks couldn't understand, but upon which the fate of empires hung.

now we learn it was all about being able to take our own money out of atm machines.

gosh, who knew?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Lisa: “By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.”
Homer: “Hmm; how does it work?”
Lisa: “It doesn’t work; it’s just a stupid rock!”
Homer: “Uh-huh.” Lisa: “… but I don’t see any tigers around, do you?”

Homer, after a moment’s thought: “Lisa, I want to buy your rock…”
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
47. At the time, the party line was the bailout had nothing to do with consumer
credit or people getting (their own) money out of atms, but with inter-bank lending.

Now it's the success of the bailout is demonstrated by the continued functionality of atms.

But wait, didn't you say in the OP that the bailout masters had screwed up & we would be obliged to accept a period of poverty?

Now you say it worked?

Jeez, I'm so confused.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. He did ...

It is only a continued and what I'm coming to believe as intentional misreading of what he and others said and argued for weeks that would suggest otherwise.

As he said, have you been able to use an ATM? Have you been able to cash your paycheck if you're among the lucky to still have a job? Can you buy groceries. Do the stores *have* groceries? Yes, I think so.

It was that serious, and we were only spared weeks or at most a few months, which is all anyone said was the best-case outcome of the stopgap.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Thanks, I couldn't have said it better
Although I would add that if Paulson had gone more massive and more aggressive, and concentrated his rescue efforts in one area, there was a chance that we could have avoided the freefall in the "real economy" that has now resulted.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. The stores had groceries BEFORE the 3 trillion dollar bailout.
So the fact that they continue to have them is scant evidence that the situation would have been different if we had not given a $7 trillion blank check to Wall Street. (See Lisa's rock.)
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I understand you don't get it ...

... and don't want to get it.

Yes, the stores had groceries. They continued to have them. The ATMs worked before and continued to work. You never stopped being able to cash your paycheck.

Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what happened.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. ...
:rofl:

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. LOL. You can't defend your position, so it's easier to throw your hands up.
I understand all too well. :hi:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. No, actually, I can ...

And I have, and I did.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Of course you haven't. I doubt you can.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 01:02 PM by Romulox
The entire case that Hamden and others have built up is based on the bizarre (and mutually contradictory) premises that:

a) While neither Hamden, Paulson (or you, I presume) predicted the current financial meltdown, you can predict with absolute precision what "must" be done to prevent any exacerbation of the damage already done. These pronouncements are generally couched in the form of non-falsifiable assertion ("Well, it would have been much worse if we hadn't bailed out AIG.", e.g.--see the "ATM" and "grocery" assertions upthread.)

b) Despite HamdenRice's unqualified support for the initial bail out bill, it's implementation was flawed. Entrusting additional monies to the self-same people who botched both the financial regulatory scheme and the ensuing free-for-all "bailout" is the only path out of the mess that these self-same people created in the first place.

And if anyone dare challenge either premise, you throw your hands up, say "It is too complicated," to defend your position, and then you congratulate one another.

You've convinced Hamden, and he's convinced you. Congrats. :silly:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I guess we're not part of the same "reality based community"
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 02:09 PM by HamdenRice
because you have a tendency to "make stuff up" sorta like George W. Bush.

But here goes:

1. "While neither Hamden, Paulson (or you, I presume) predicted the current financial meltdown,"

No, lots of progressive economists predicted it, most notably, Paul Krugman.

2. "couched in the form of non-falsifiable assertion ("Well, it would have been much worse"

History is not a scientific experiment in the sense that it is reproducible. But anyone who knows how finance works, whether right or left, said, if certain institutions failed, credit markets would lock up. They did indeed lock up. And the bailout did indeed unfreeze them. The question is how much would they have locked up without the bailout. When the overwhelming majority of commentators, right and left, agreed you would need gold coins to buy corn if the thing had been allowed to collapse, people with common sense agree, that the consensus of the commentators, right and left, is probably right. Especially considering we had a day or two in which that actually pretty much happened.

Notice the posts about credit cards being canceled and credit limits reduced?

3. "HamdenRice's unqualified support for the initial bail out bill"

When you make stuff up, people tend to dismiss your opinion. This is what is happening to you. My support was not unqualified. The plan I advocated was not the one adopted (Hint: I said the mbs market needed to be fixed simultaneously at the top and bottom (homeowners)). I also said over and over that the key was in the pricing of the mortgage securities. The plan I hoped for wasn't adopted, but the one adopted could have worked more robustly if Paulson had been more aggressive. At any rate, your proposition is demonstrably false. At any rate, a complete financial meltdown was averted even though the prospect of one keeps recurring. Given these facts, what credibility do you have?

4. "Entrusting additional monies to the self-same people "

The original plan was to purchase mortgage backed securities from commercial banks. These are not the "self-same people" who created mbs. Since you can't grasp even the most simple concepts of finance, I'm not sure you can have a fruitful discussion with anyone who is economically or financially literate. If you can't grasp that some banks created mbs and sold it on to other banks, how can you have a meaningful conversation with the economically literate?

5. "you throw your hands up, say "It is too complicated,"

Actually, no. Most of us have tried to explain what's going on. It's the "let it fail" right wing, Ron Paul, nihilist Luddites who claim it's too complicated to explain.

Got that?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
61. Bzzzzt.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 05:11 PM by girl gone mad
Krugman did not predict the crisis, he merely reported on it in real time.

Roubini predicted it with extreme accuracy. Roubini was against the bailout.

ETA: buying toxic assets from the banks that created those assets would have been giving money to the same people who created the mess. The person you were replying to had it right. Our current plan is little better, since we are grossly overpaying for equity and leaving bad management intact.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Bottom line: It is POSSIBLE that without $7 trillion in taxpayer money to Wall Street
that Martial Law would result.

It is incumbent upon advocates of such drastic measures to establish that this is likely. You haven't done so because you cannot.

So do like Hamden does: continue to soothsay as to the future despite the fact that you have no proven track record as to the past.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. And you do?
You do really have a lot of nerve. You've passed off everything HamdenRice has said in this thread, which began with an insightful, detailed piece, with a few lines of misrepresentation and a thinly veiled insult. I'm supposed to take *that* seriously and offer a detailed response?

You can search my user name and some simple keywords. My argument has remained consistent since the beginning and was far more detailed until I grew fed up with the fact that individuals like you would continue to shout to the rooftops I said "WHITE WHITE WHITE!!!!! OMG IT'S WHITE!" when I really said it was sort of an off-shade of blue within a khaki border.

In all honesty I have no idea what your "record" is as I don't know you in professional life, and I haven't followed your posts. I suspect the reverse is also true.

In any case, let's follow this very simply.

Every economist and financier in the world without an extreme ideological bent knew drastic measures needed to be taken. They disagreed on the extent and the details, but in the end the most expert and reasonable voices (people who have been criticizing Bush and Greenspan and Phil Gramm, et al for years) said, basically, "Well, it's better than nothing, and something has to be done right now or it won't wait for the next administration."

Leaders of other nations did not vacillate under the pressure of this "gift to the fat cats" meme and did what had to be done for the moment. (And, frankly, most of them are waiting for Obama because they're tired of Bush and Paulson.) Krugman, DeLong ... frankly I've gotten tired of typing out the names, so you can look them up. They are all left-of-center, largely Keynesian economists who said the same damn thing. We don't like it, but we're going to hold our noses and deal with it because doing nothing right now would be calamitous.

If you're going to continue this, please, I beg you, learn the difference between "manically supporting" and "reluctantly support" and use the phrases appropriately.

Thank you.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Nope. I'm not pretending to the role of soothsayer, however.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 03:23 PM by Romulox
"You do really have a lot of nerve. You've passed off everything HamdenRice has said in this thread"

That's because I remember what he posted in umpteenth OTHER threads on the same subject (including a spirited defense of the distribution of bailout monies as "dividends"!) He is changing his tune now, because he has the clarity of hindsight. Of course, clarifying an earlier position in light of new facts is admirable, but does not support the assertion that he is uniquely qualified to predict the future of this bailout, seeing as he is (tacitly) admitting that he was mistaken in his unqualified support of the thing only a few weeks earlier...

"Every economist and financier in the world without an extreme ideological bent knew drastic measures needed to be taken."

Even if true (and it's obviously not,) "drastic measures" by no means equal the Paulson plan. From the beginning, Bailout Boosters have deployed false dichotomies of this same sort: "$150 Billion to AIG or else there will be no groceries in the stores!!!."

"Leaders of other nations did not vacillate under the pressure of this "gift to the fat cats" meme"

No other country in the world gave out the types of monies the US government and the Fed did, nor did any country world give out bailout monies with no effective oversight.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. What complete and utter bullshit
Does everything you write have to have no basis in reality. I don't even know where to start. How about here:

'distribution of bailout monies as "dividends"'

It is very difficult to have a rational discussion with an economic and financial illiterate, but I made the point, which no one has presented contradictory evidence of, that based on the terms of the bailout and the purchase by the feds of preferred stock, that the banks will indeed by paying the federal government several billion dollars in dividends next year.

IIRC, you were the economic illiterate who thought that the dividend payment substituted for the face value of the preferred stock. You know so little that you don't even understand the difference between dividends on preferred or interest on a bond, and the face value of that preferred or bond. That level of ignorance is basically impenetrable, isn't it?

When you can grasp that the banks will have to pay billions in preferred dividends and then pay back the entire amount of the bailout, then perhaps we can have a discussion. But right now, we're in the position of being astronomers trying to have a conversation about the origins of moon rocks with someone who thinks the moon is made of green cheese.

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. You believe banks will have to pay back the entire amount of the bailout..
and you're calling someone else an "economic illiterate"??

There is a better chance of these banks being nationalized than there is that they will ever pay for the bailout in comparably valued money.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. we don't even know what is the true value of the 'assets' Paulson has purchased
. . .or what the extent of the debt will be at the bottom of the decline or even what the extent of the debt is now with these banks who've received these gratuitous inflows of public cash.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
73. You are confusing two separate topics.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 07:29 PM by Romulox
"It is very difficult to have a rational discussion with an economic and financial illiterate, but I made the point, which no one has presented contradictory evidence of, that based on the terms of the bailout and the purchase by the feds of preferred stock, that the banks will indeed by paying the federal government several billion dollars in dividends next year."

I was speaking about a thread I started to the effect that 1/2 of bailout money distributed to bank earmarked for shareholder "dividends". Not dividends to the Federal Government. "Dividends" (read: taxpayer bailout money) distributed to private shareholders. As "profits" for the mismanagement of the companies they'd invested in. You were strongly in favor of it, IIRC. :shrug:

I'll let your the foaming mouth personal attacks speak for themselves. :hi:
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I beg to differ ...

You're claiming a special power, that to predict what would have happened had historical reality been altered, and you are demanding I, and others, do the same thing from a different angle. Harry Turtledove does this. It makes great novels.

I'm dealing with what has happened, both in the recent and more distant past. If your position is based on arguing there is no crisis or that it was not as serious as all the data clearly indicate, that's your burden to prove.

No other country in the world gave out the types of monies the US government and the Fed did

As a percentage of GDP, this is false on its face.

But you're missing the larger point. Many other world leaders have been doing what *needs* to be done rather than trying to score political points. These other nations -- many of them -- have gone further than we have.

This is an economic crisis of unfathomable proportions that, despite your earlier claim, every leftward leaning finance and economic expert knew was coming years ago. It has been stuck in a political circus, of which you see the brilliant and glorious manifestation right here in our own progressive corner of the web where people decry the very same measures FDR put into place.

nor did any country world give out bailout monies with no effective oversight.

The lack of accountability between Congress and the Executive is an absolute travesty, and I don't personally know anyone who would argue otherwise.



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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. Research Project

In light of the other response to you, a thought occurs that might prove instructive if you're willing to take it and do something with it.

Do you know what the War Powers Board was, what it was designed to do, what it eventually did do, and what it, effectively became?

I ask because, if you were to look into it, you would gain some insight into the mechanics of what is taking place. You might especially be interested in its final settling of accounts when disbanded.


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I think it would be more interesting to research Rice's posts written
before the bailout.

I, alas, do not have search functionality.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. I have most of them bookmarked ...

... the OPs anyway, going back to late August or early September anyway. I've read most of them multiple times.

Anything in particular you're looking for?

Regardless, while that would indeed prove instructive -- and I assume my reasons for thinking that and yours are quite different -- understanding the history and evolution of the War Powers Board, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, and all that was accomplished by them is quite helpful to understanding today's crisis and the measures being undertaken to try to address them.

Certainly Geithner and especially Romer and Bernanke understand that history quite well.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. oh no, nothing "in particular."
Rather than going back to war powers, i think the history of glass-steagall is instructive:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

your wp/rcf riff smells like herrings.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Herrings ...
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 05:09 PM by RoyGBiv
See, that's the problem. You can cite Glass-Stegall, but you don't appear to know the backstory.

The WPB/RFC are an integral part of that history, an understanding of which is necessary even to begin to claim an understanding of the Depression and the reforms that came out of it, Glass-Steagall (the second one) being high among them.

I can offer you some citations, but they are in peer-reviewed historical journals, and most around these parts don't tend to want those.

Edit: typo
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. I know the backstory well enough. I also know something of herrings.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 05:12 PM by Hannah Bell
I smell another one, in fact.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. But you don't know ...

... clearly.

Simple questions. Do you know what they are and what they were used to accomplish? Do you know how they evolved and their relationship to each other?

If so, please explain how it is a "red herring."

If not, simple admit as much and go forward. Education is not a bad thing.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. i don't like that smell. fish & straw. stinky.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Okay then
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 05:59 PM by RoyGBiv

Yet you'll offer no reason, not justification at all.

This has been written about at length in this very forum.

It's very disappointing because I know at least you are not the willfully ignorant type.

That sort of stubbornness is the problem with this whole discussion.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. fdr, mrs. junius spencer morgan: 2nd cousins.
btw, you didn't just buy me a star, did you?
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Nope ...
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 07:50 PM by RoyGBiv
Considered it, actually, 'cause I thought you already had one, but was at work and couldn't do the whole PayPal thing.

This is the final thing I'll say (in this thread anyway) about the WPB and the RFC. I'm not going into in depth because I already have, and, as your distrust shows, none of this will likely be considered relevant by those determined to be contrarians.

The WPB begat the War Finance Corporation in 1918 for war purposes. It was highly successful at its intended purpose, which later transformed into advancing loans to agricultural and banking interests in need of reconstruction assistance in the wake of the war. By the time of its dissolution, its entire capital outlay had been repaid in full.

At the beginning of the Depression the chairman of the WFC and many others who had been involved in it strongly urged Hoover to reconstituted it for recovery efforts. It would have the same function and charter and start with the same capital. Due to Hoover's ideological rigidness, he refused, citing what was *only* a difference in political ideology in that the WFC drew its supposed legal justification as a wartime measure, whereas the economic crisis did not meet that standard.

It was stupid, but this is what you get with rigid ideology in times of extreme crisis.

He instead, at length and after even stupider ideas, established The Reconstruction Finance Corporation on a similar model but with far stricter controls, effectively less net funding, and no real authority to due anything but lend to organizations (banks) who didn't need the loans. (I exaggerate, but that's how it looks on paper.) However, this RFC was eventually transformed into an effective working organization by FDR. One of his first pieces of signed legislation included Title III:

"In Title III authority is conferred upon national banks to issue preferred stock. This is a new departure in the capitalization of banks and has made possible the rehabilitation of the capital structure of associations whose assets had shrunk to such a degree that their capital was impaired; it has also aided in the formation of new banks where needed, e.g., Detroit. Dividends upon preferred stock are cumulative and at a rate not exceeding six per cent per annum. Preferred stock may be purchased by the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. . ."

OnEdit: Forgot citation: Preston, Howard. "The Banking Act of 1933," The American Economic Review, Vol. 23, No. 4 (Dec., 1933), pp. 585-607

If you have access, here's a link: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1807513

That would be the Emergency Banking Act of 1933, without which Glass-Steagall doesn't work.

Now, if that's a red herring, I'm at a loss to say what your definition of "red herring" is.

The actual text, history, and antecedents to both these acts are so relevant to the current crisis that any person in a position of authority dealing with it should be summarily taken out and slapped about the head and ears with a bucket of herring if she or he were to ignore it.

And, yes, that's the short version. *How* the RFC worked is quite instructive, and our leaders would be greatly served to emulate it in some, more direct form, unlike the mess we have now.

In any case, the passage above was the tidbit I found relevant to the previous discussion, perhaps leading to a bit of an understanding of dividends and how they play into all this. But, sadly, I don't really think a lot of people are genuinely interested in understanding. They just want to yell, so yell they will.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. However, this thread is about "how badly 'they' screwed up", with
sidetrips into who, why, & why hr pumped the bailout before the fact, but is now quoting marx.


FDR's great-aunt: laura delano astor, wife of william backhouse astor, son of john jacob astor.

FDR's aunt: Deborah perry delano forbes, wife of two forbes brothers, william howell & paul revere: john forbes kerry's great-grandfather's first cousins.

Banking & finance organizations with Roosevelts in their founding lineages: Bank of NY, Chemical Bank...etc.


"Roosevelt sticks it to the bankers, gets country moving again!"

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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. What's your point?
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 08:13 PM by RoyGBiv
If you want to talk about FDR's connection to bankers, then say so.

If you want to criticize his measures as ineffective or somehow conspiratorial, say so.

Laying out lists of names and sets of random facts don't quite cut it.

Furthermore, the subject of threads flow, as apparently you realize since, to you, "the thread" is about your interpretation of the OP and not what the OP actually intended. I'm not going to argue this point ... as you say, "red herring."

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Righto, so you get my point.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 08:59 PM by Hannah Bell
FDR, JP Morgan: 3rd cousins

JP's grandson: UK executive director, international monetary fund, head uk special forces.
grandaughter: wife of Barings scion.

great-grandson: director, bank of england; chairman of board, Barings


TIME, 1929:

Roosevelt v. Morgan
Monday, Jul. 08, 1929

At Harvard's commencement and reunion last fortnight. Banker John Pierpont Morgan stepped out of his line of march to handshake Governor Franklin Delano Roosevelt of New York.

Last week Governor Roosevelt asked his Attorney-General to investigate at once and within two weeks report upon the new $665,000,000 Morgan merger of New York utility companies (TIME, June 24).

Reason: It was "a matter of vital concern ... to every householder . . . who uses electric light or power in his home" if, through agreements with friendly companies, the Morgan merged companies would be in such a monopolistic position that "the monthly . . . bills of millions of people may perhaps be affected. . . ."


Roosevelt: Sticking it to the bankers, 1929!

Maybe R. could have just had a private word with M. at his grandma's house?

Since jp's gramma & fdr's mom were first cousins?


The investigations started...right before the crash.

Funny, that.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. No, I don't.

Because you're not making one.

You're (still) citing random factoids and assuming a point is there to be made.

If you have a point, please state it plainly.

Are you or are you not criticizing Franklin Roosevelt? If so, what is the nature of your criticism in relation to the subject of the Depression and his attempts to address it?





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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. you don't want to get bogged down in someone else's agenda.
me neither.

rice was pumping the bailout, now he can't believe how bad they screwed it up.

you want to draw parallels with rfc.

smoke, mirrors.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. The rooster crows at midnight ...

The fatman flies alone.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. eleanor roosevelt's aunt edith's husband: william forbes-morgan, jr.
koo-koo-ka-choob.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Karl Marx's daughter Eleanor
Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. km's uncle lion philips: merchant, tobacco trader, g'pa of philips' electronics founders.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 10:53 PM by Hannah Bell
philips, participant in the phoebus cartel, along with (morgan-controlled) general electric.

lion's son: banker...
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Das Kapital



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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. george washington riggs, "the presidents' banker"
son of elisha riggs, founder of riggs, peabody with geo. peabody, who was also founder of peabody, morgan, with fdr's cousin, junius spencer morgan.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. George Washington Cable
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
65. You clearly were not paying close attention to the bailout debate.
Every economist and financier in the world without an extreme ideological bent knew drastic measures needed to be taken. They disagreed on the extent and the details, but in the end the most expert and reasonable voices (people who have been criticizing Bush and Greenspan and Phil Gramm, et al for years) said, basically, "Well, it's better than nothing, and something has to be done right now or it won't wait for the next administration."

That's simply inaccurate.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Actually, it is.
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 05:40 PM by RoyGBiv

I don't know any who said they liked it.

The problem is you are reading things into that statement that are not there and are continuing to ignore the purposeful qualifiers.

I don't know any economist or financier who wasn't of the "let it burn" or "denialist" crowd who didn't agree drastic measures needed to be taken.

And "most" of the reasonable voices did indeed indicate that doing nothing would be calamitous. "Some" (and I'm pretty sure I know who you'll cite for this) said the situation wasn't as dire as most were saying it was.

You want it to be for or against, and it ain't like that. Never was, except in the push-polls and inflammatory goading some (not you, I would like to note) on DU have seem to built a momentary career around.



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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. That's interesting, isn't it.
As is the new Marxist analysis.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
53. I had the same thought.
Not that we didn't try to give him or her extensive analysis.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
14. The fetish-An interesting way
of looking at the problem.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. Yes, isn't it? Karl Marx, 1800s.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. "I can't believe they fucked this thing up so badly. "
I can, we are suffering from a radical excess of hubris at the top levels of society.

We are also suffering from a political class that bases much of its agenda and policies on purest fantasy and has for decades now.

When you use hubris and pure fantasy as the basis for making your decisions then eventual failure is all but assured.

Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad. We have had mad leadership for many years now, that they would screw the system up is a given. Although I hope otherwise, I don't think Obama is sufficiently divorced from the hubris and madness to bring us out of this monstrous debacle in which we now find ourselves.

If I was a religious person I would pray for a god or gods to rescue us, for all of us to have to depend on the wisdom of a single individual to effect the drastic change needed in our society is terrifying to me. There is an upper limit to human wisdom, intelligence and ability, it would appear that Obama approaches that limit as closely as any politician we have seen in a long while and I can but only hope that is enough.







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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. Not exactly the first time such a ruling elite has come acropper either.
:thumbsup:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
18. I dunno
"complex, fantastical, imaginary systems for circulating money" sounds like gambling to me.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
43. Interesting post. You borrow Karl Marx's categories & part of his analysis, but then
couch the bigger picture in terms of "screw-up," as if what's occurring were accidental, anomalous, just the result of some larcenous people making some stupid decisions.

I.e. you manage to defuse & disappear the crux of Marx's analysis, the context of the vocabulary he created (fetish, alienation, etc.) - it's not an accident, not an anomaly, but a regular, inevitable & necessary phenomena of capitalist production regimes.

Considering you were pumping the bailout hard just a few weeks ago, this is funny.



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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. It was just "bad management"
Everything will be fine now.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. especially since the 'bad managers' are still in place
. . . yet, Hamden supports a bankruptcy for the automakers which would require their 'bad' managers to leave.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. ho-ho, fascinating.
yes, it's so interesting how the folks managing the people's money are the same folks who started & pumped the derivatives scam. notably the morgan & goldman alumni.

& so interesting, the uses of "bailout".
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. one of Citibank's (group's) advisers, now working on the 'rescue' team
Edited on Tue Nov-25-08 04:48 PM by bigtree
reportedly supported and lobbied for the removal of the Glass-Steagall Act, the push which resulted in the 1999 rollback of part of the Act which allowed banks like Citibank to go into the insurance business - a move which bears most of the blame for the fix we're in now with failing banks tied up so completely with these other enterprises.

from Wiki (for the curious):

The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLBA) allowed commercial and investment banks to consolidate. For example, Citibank merged with Travelers Group, an insurance company, and in 1998 formed the conglomerate Citigroup, a corporation combining banking and insurance underwriting services under brands including Smith-Barney, Shearson, Primerica and Travelers Insurance Corporation. This combination, announced in 1993 and finalized in 1994, would have violated the Glass-Steagall Act and the Bank Holding Company Act by combining insurance and securities companies, if not for a temporary waiver process.

Did you guess the name of the adviser?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. It wasn't only Citi, it was all the majors. Long before the Clinton era.
And the Fed, most notably that famous Morgan alumnas, alan greenspan.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

Beginning in the 1960s, banks lobby Congress to allow them to enter the municipal bond market, and a lobbying subculture springs up around Glass-Steagall. Some lobbyists even brag about how the bill put their kids through college.

In the 1970s, some brokerage firms begin encroaching on banking territory by offering money-market accounts that pay interest, allow check-writing, and offer credit or debit cards.


1986-87

Fed begins reinterpreting Glass-Steagall; Greenspan becomes Fed chairman

In December 1986, the Federal Reserve Board, which has regulatory jurisdiction over banking, reinterprets Section 20 of the Glass-Steagall Act, which bars commercial banks from being "engaged principally" in securities business, deciding that banks can have up to 5 percent of gross revenues from investment banking business. The Fed Board then permits Bankers Trust, a commercial bank, to engage in certain commercial paper (unsecured, short-term credit) transactions. In the Bankers Trust decision, the Board concludes that the phrase "engaged principally" in Section 20 allows banks to do a small amount of underwriting, so long as it does not become a large portion of revenue. This is the first time the Fed reinterprets Section 20 to allow some previously prohibited activities.

In the spring of 1987, the Federal Reserve Board votes 3-2 in favor of easing regulations under Glass-Steagall Act, overriding the opposition of Chairman Paul Volcker. The vote comes after the Fed Board hears proposals from Citicorp, J.P. Morgan and Bankers Trust advocating the loosening of Glass-Steagall restrictions to allow banks to handle several underwriting businesses, including commercial paper, municipal revenue bonds, and mortgage-backed securities. Thomas Theobald, then vice chairman of Citicorp, argues that three "outside checks" on corporate misbehavior had emerged since 1933: "a very effective" SEC; knowledgeable investors, and "very sophisticated" rating agencies. Volcker is unconvinced, and expresses his fear that lenders will recklessly lower loan standards in pursuit of lucrative securities offerings and market bad loans to the public. For many critics, it boiled down to the issue of two different cultures - a culture of risk which was the securities business, and a culture of protection of deposits which was the culture of banking.

In March 1987, the Fed approves an application by Chase Manhattan to engage in underwriting commercial paper, applying the same reasoning as in the 1986 Bankers Trust decision, and in April it issues an order outlining its rationale. While the Board remains sensitive to concerns about mixing commercial banking and underwriting, it states its belief that the original Congressional intent of "principally engaged" allowed for some securities activities. The Fed also indicates that it will raise the limit from 5 percent to 10 percent of gross revenues at some point in the future. The Board believes the new reading of Section 20 will increase competition and lead to greater convenience and increased efficiency.

In August 1987, Alan Greenspan -- formerly a director of J.P. Morgan and a proponent of banking deregulation -- becomes chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. One reason Greenspan favors greater deregulation is to help U.S. banks compete with big foreign institutions.


1989-1990

Further loosening of Glass-Steagall

In January 1989, the Fed Board approves an application by J.P. Morgan, Chase Manhattan, Bankers Trust, and Citicorp to expand the Glass-Steagall loophole to include dealing in debt and equity securities in addition to municipal securities and commercial paper. This marks a large expansion of the activities considered permissible under Section 20, because the revenue limit for underwriting business is still at 5 percent. Later in 1989, the Board issues an order raising the limit to 10 percent of revenues, referring to the April 1987 order for its rationale.

In 1990, J.P. Morgan becomes the first bank to receive permission from the Federal Reserve to underwrite securities, so long as its underwriting business does not exceed the 10 percent limit.


1980s-90s

Congress repeatedly tries and fails to repeal Glass-Steagall

In 1984 and 1988, the Senate passes bills that would lift major restrictions under Glass-Steagall, but in each case the House blocks passage. In 1991, the Bush administration puts forward a repeal proposal, winning support of both the House and Senate Banking Committees, but the House again defeats the bill in a full vote. And in 1995, the House and Senate Banking Committees approve separate versions of legislation to get rid of Glass-Steagall, but conference negotiations on a compromise fall apart.

Attempts to repeal Glass-Steagall typically pit insurance companies, securities firms, and large and small banks against one another, as factions of these industries engage in turf wars in Congress over their competing interests and over whether the Federal Reserve or the Treasury Department and the Comptroller of the Currency should be the primary banking regulator.


1996-1997

Fed renders Glass-Steagall effectively obsolete

In December 1996, with the support of Chairman Alan Greenspan, the Federal Reserve Board issues a precedent-shattering decision permitting bank holding companies to own investment bank affiliates with up to 25 percent of their business in securities underwriting (up from 10 percent).

This expansion of the loophole created by the Fed's 1987 reinterpretation of Section 20 of Glass-Steagall effectively renders Glass-Steagall obsolete. Virtually any bank holding company wanting to engage in securities business would be able to stay under the 25 percent limit on revenue. However, the law remains on the books, and along with the Bank Holding Company Act, does impose other restrictions on banks, such as prohibiting them from owning insurance-underwriting companies.

In August 1997, the Fed eliminates many restrictions imposed on "Section 20 subsidiaries" by the 1987 and 1989 orders. The Board states that the risks of underwriting had proven to be "manageable," and says banks would have the right to acquire securities firms outright.

In 1997, Bankers Trust (now owned by Deutsche Bank) buys the investment bank Alex. Brown & Co., becoming the first U.S. bank to acquire a securities firm.



40 years of "screw-ups". ho-ho.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. I'll never forget the first time I heard a software bug called a "software anomaly".
As though mistakes and errors were anomalous and not the result of bad programming, it was still good code, it just had anomalies. That really told me where I was (in the belly of the beast), and what sort of discourse was to be expected.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
51. We should do more bartering, since our dollar is going to be destroyed.
And in the amount of time it takes to sell something for cash and then buy something else of value, the value of the cash itself will have declined.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
52. Very well done Hamden Rice.
When economists of any political stripe spout nonsense (like Greenspan did) that "too much employment is a bad thing", people need to treat it with the contempt it deserves.
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