Detroit whines, Nissan moves directly to all electric line up

[yurbud]

I think the real problem with Detroit is simple: the people who liked building cars and started those companies are long gone, replaced by MBA trust fund babies whose only concern is funneling money into their own pockets and those of their friends. The only difference between most of them and Bush is they have the power of human speech and can probably wipe their own asses.

The problem is, you can only get so far on scamming, and when the people who actually make things and provide real services are completely marginalized, you have entire industries or even whole economies based on nothing.

Maybe we should set up reservations for trust fund babies, like a country club with a gate that locks from the outside, give them a golf course, umbrella drinks, cocaine, and baby oil to re-enact their frat initiations, and they would be happy as clams.

And we could get some good old-fashioned geeks who wonder about the way things work to make our cars and power grid.

Nissan Stealthily on Track for Electric Car World Domination



Written by Nick Chambers
Published on November 23rd, 2008

As the dust settles out from the 2008 LA Auto Show, Nissan has clearly emerged as the car company to beat in our transportation future.

From a green perspective, even though the Mini E is getting the most hype, the Mitsubishi i MiEV is one hell of a fun car to drive, and the Honda FCX Clarity is cutting edge, those are just cars. The true measure of a car company lies in its strategies, and, after Nissan’s recent media blitz, the company has shown that there is not a single other auto manufacturer out there who “just gets it” like they do.

“What’s so cohesive and salient about Nissan’s big-picture strategy,” you ask? Here are some snippets:

• Nissan is bringing the first of their electric cars to market by 2010 in many locations around the United States. According to Alan Buddendeck, Nissan’s VP for North American Corporate Communications, this car will be priced between $22-$25K and have at least a range of 100 miles.
  
  
• By 2012, Nissan will be bringing an entire lineup of affordable electric cars (sedans, minivans, compact cars, and sports cars) to the world market. This isn’t just some limited roll-out, and they’re beyond serious about it. Their overarching business plan has been re-written to focus on zero emissions vehicles.
  
  http://gas2.org/2008/11/23/nissan-stealthily-on-track-for-electric-car-world-domination/">FULL TEXT

[Fumesucker]

1. Putting the

:popcorn: in the microwave now.

[GodlessBiker]

2. Nissan's electric car will be $22-25K. GM's Volt will be $40K. You do the math.

[JVS]

3. but but but the Volt concept car looked fucking sweet.

Until they lamed it up for production

[blue_onyx]

58. I like the production version better

I was never a fan of the Volt concept.

[yurbud]

4. Volt strategy is opposite of old Vega strategy in 70s

back then, they made an economy car so ugly, uncomfortable, unreliable and just plain embarrassing,that potential buyers would look to the next product up the line if they were diehard American-only buyers.

With the Volt, the price tag is meant to make it too expensive to be widely adopted, and seem like a toy of the rich.

[Bake]

24. Hey! I had a '73 Vega fastback!

It was attractive, comfortable, and cheap! Until the engine started burning oil as fast as gas.

Bake

[yurbud]

30. when I was eight, riding in Vegas and Pintos was uncomfortable, and I was small for my age

A Vega would be more comfortable that being locked up in steamer trunk, but not much.

[Bake]

37. It didn't have A/C, and it did have black vinyl interior.

So in the summer you could fry an egg on the seats.

But other than that, it was OK.

Bake

[yurbud]

42. did you ever try to drive it anywhere, or did you just sit in it?

[Bake]

51. Heck, I drove that sucker everywhere!

You had to keep some air moving in it or you'd die in the summer.

Bake

[ProfessorGAC]

79. That Happened To My Cousin Too

He worked in a gas station at the time, and every time he put gas in the car, he had to put in 2 quarts of oil.

Exactly what you described!
The Professor

[Bake]

80. I think it was the aluminum block engine.

The block would warp after a while and oil would leak, burn, etc.

Bake

[ProfessorGAC]

83. Yeah, That's What A Mechanic Told Him

But, he did put the time on that car. I think he bought it about 2 years old and drove it for at least 5 years. From his senior year of HS, through JuCo, and his first couple years working.

Other than the oil thing, it was a good car for him.
GAC

[Winterblues]

19. How much does Nisson's CEO make compared to GM's?

I think that is an important factor in all of this as well. Nisson, Toyota, Honda all are a team effort. No one makes more than ten fold what another does.. Compare that to GM, Ford, Chrysler...Tells you alot about their business style..

[whopis01]

78. $45,500,000 from his side job as CEO of Renault.

Nissan doesn't release details on their executive pay, but I did see that Carlos Ghosn acknowledged that their executive pay was far higher than that of Toyota, but that was because a quarter of Nissan's executives were non-Japanese and therefore required higher pay.

If you think no one at Nissan makes 10 times what anyone else made, you are very mistaken.

I don't think using someone who is getting paid millions for being the CEO of two companies at the same time while arguing that your pay should differ based on your nationality is someone to put up on a pedestal and admire.


http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4504

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-06-25-4199282966_x.htm

[Ganja Ninja]

20. Not to mention the range (40 miles per charge) on the volt is pathetic.

It's obviously designed to fail. Toyota, Honda and Nissan will all be on their second or third generation electrics by the time GM gets serious.

[CRF450]

61. Their aiming for $35k, not $40k!

[Skidmore]

5. I don't get why the auto workers don't direct some of their anger

toward the management of those companies for not exercising good financial management judgment or developing products which made sense for the times. Decades were wasted--in dollars and in design/innovation. Now when the industry wants yet again for the American public to help dig it out, any skepticism about the industry's ability to turn things around is derided.

[Odin2005]

33. Because it wouldn't matter is what I would guess, the management elite is a chummy Old Boys Club.

If you fire one CEO the next CEO is inevitably be another member of the Old Boys Club. This is what the MBA-centered model of management has given us. We need to go back to the days of Lee Iaccoca when management was created by promotion from inside the industry from people that worked hard to get up the promotional ladder.

[LWolf]

6. Japanese car makers have been ahead of the curve

for most of my life, as far as I'm concerned. Economy and reliability; either or both have always been better with Japanese models than american. I've driven a lot of cars since I got my driver's license in 1976:

Mercury, Ford, GMC, Chevy, Datsun, Nissan, Toyota, Buick, Dodge, and Hyundai.

The full-sized american trucks, Ford and Chevy, were, and so far are, better than the Tundra, which is the only full-sized japanese truck I've driven. Other than that, the American models lose every damned time. Less fuel efficient than comparable models, don't last as long, need many more repairs along the way.

Our big 3 have focused for the 3+ decades of my driving lifetime on phallus substitution rather than economy, efficiency, or reliability. In my opinion, of course.

If they want to end outsourcing, bring all manufacturing, including of parts, back to the states, and put economy, efficiency, zero emissions, and reliability at the top of their priority lists, I'm willing to bail them out. Otherwise, let's replace them with some american companies who will.

[1gobluedem]

9. Research on Asian cars was financed by their governments

Big Three had bills to pay.

[LWolf]

10. So perhaps the "bailout" ought to be directed towards research.

I'm willing to bail them out, based on the conditions I already mentioned.

[yurbud]

11. Detroit has done some great research--they just choose not to apply it

and make the same shitty, embarrassing cars.

[LWolf]

14. Yep.

Should they be required to apply it, if they get "bailed out?"

[yurbud]

36. condition of bailout: give up all battery tech patents and don't buy anymore

[drbtg1]

62. Aren't some of the patents owned by oil companies?

Thus, it wouldn't apply.

[alfredo]

15. Clinton worked out a deal with the automakers to build the next generation

of green cars, but bush shit-canned that idea for one that used gasoline to make the fuel cell fuel.

[Kalyke]

48. And Nissan makes shitty and UGLY cars.

That thing in the picture is a toad, with apologies to toads.

[Kolesar]

86. Why don't you explain what you mean rather than lobbing a two-sentence slander?

[Pab Sungenis]

41. The first GM hybrid prototype was ready in August 1969.

The Stir-Lec 1. They never pursued updating the design (which is almost identical to the current hybrid designs) until recently.

[LWolf]

82. Which means what?

Who shut it down? American drivers? Marketers? Oil companies?

[Pab Sungenis]

84. Probably a combination of all three.

The people who made "Who Killed The Electric Car" should go back and look at the Stir-Lec.

[sandnsea]

13. As well as employee health care and retirement

They have a lot of advantages that people in this country just refuse to see. Al Gore was ridiculed as much on his comments about the end of the combustible engine as he was about his "sighs". But the left is so busy bashing Obama that they don't stop to think they ought to put an ad up reminding the dumbfucks of where we could be if we had listened to Gore 8 years ago, or Kerry 4 years ago, or Carter 30 years ago.

[Fumesucker]

18. But the fact remains that the biggest advantage the Japanese manufacturers have

Is intelligent and forward looking management.

Something that cannot be said of the domestics.

[DainBramaged]

44. Don't waste your breath and blasphemy Toyota honda nissan god

[Greyhound]

27. UAW/government partnership.

It will work.

The values of these companies is so low that now is the time and this opportunity will not come around again.

[LWolf]

34. That's an idea worth looking at. nt

[Kolesar]

85. Not in this case--Nissan did not even have an electric program three years ago .. eom

[Kalyke]

90. And I think Japanese cars are shit.

Have had far more rice burners in the shop than any American car I've been around (I haven't owned a rice burner, but hubby and in-laws and pre-hubby boyfriends have).

Oh - and my car is far more efficient than hubby's. I hated driving his when mine was in the shop (to be repaired after I was rear-ended - it wasn't there for service) because mine got better gas mileage. And is more reliable.

See, I live in 2008. Not 1988.

[Ioo]

7. Why are we wanting to bail out Detroit? Lack of Vision is not a biz plan

"Why can't we sell cars the Japanese have been making for 5-8 years?"

2008 GM car is like a 1999 Japanese car

[yurbud]

12. several people have said one obvious remedy: to get the money, FIRE your execs

[EOTE]

16. And that's why they're consistently rated as equals in terms of quality

while selling for thousands less. That's why nearly every automotive magazine has rated the current Malibu as a better car and better value than either the current Accord or Camry. But what do Edmunds, Car and Driver and Motorweek know? It's not like they review cars for a living or anything. And shame on GM for offering reasonably priced hybrids. You do know that you can get a hybrid Malibu for around the same price as the 4 cylinder Accord or Camry, right? And you do know that for that price you can get a better car that gets better fuel economy and more power (more power than the Camry, anyway).

You seem to think that Japanese cars are so advanced. I know two people who own a previous generation Sentra (B15 2000-2006). The cars are fine mechanically, but BOTH of their cheap plasticky interiors are completely falling apart. These cars are a few years old and you'd think they were from the 80s. I've got another friend with a '99 Cavalier. Of course, it's a piece of crap too, just about all compact cars are. However, the cheap plasticky interior on the 99 Cavalier is still together and not falling apart like every B15 Sentra that I know of. The current and previous gen Civic are light years ahead of the current and previous gen Sentra, but they're both Japanese. And you can get a new Cobalt for thousands less than a comparably equipped Civic and get all the quality of the Civic with just a less attractive interior and a less advanced powertrain (while getting the same or better fuel economy). I've owned a number of domestic and foreign cars and I can tell you that both have made great cars and both have made abominations. However, the consensus is that American cars have never been better and more competitive.

[Ioo]

17. Sentra is Entry Level Car - Ment to be cheap, like Focus a la.. Simple, Why the bailout.

[EOTE]

21. Yes, which is why the Sentra should be compared to other Entry Level Cars.

Like the Cobalt and Focus whose interiors don't fall apart after a year or two of owning them. And I'm quite aware that the Corolla and Civic fare much better (at a greater expense too), but the point is that the Japanese make crap cars too, and domestics have been doing quite good at avoiding them as of late. In fact, I'd venture to say that the only truly crappy car that Chevy makes right now is the Monte Carlo.

As for why the bailout should proceed, the ridiculous amount of jobs that it saves would be the biggest reason. I certainly don't think the bailout should proceed without stipulations, I think there should be a lot of them and I think that the Big Three should be forced to do a lot of restructuring as part of the bailout. But I think if a bailout doesn't occur, disaster will be the result.

[Ioo]

25. Not the point - If they are making such great cars, why the bailout.

If, what you say it true and they are making such great cars, why the bailout... where is Nissan in the halls of Cap Hill? I do not see them there...

Are they hurting, Sure they are... are they asking the US Gov for money, don't think so...

In short, I find the whole argument to be made MOOT by the fact they are asking for money... they are asking for money because no one is buying THEIR cars...

[EOTE]

31. Poor management. That's why.

GM is selling a crap load of cars. They're still the number one car manufacturer in the world. They're making the best and most competitive cars they've ever made. And in case you weren't aware, Nissan was in QUITE a bit of trouble not so very long ago. You do know that Renault now owns 45% of them, right? In spite of that, they still haven't made a decent compact since probably the early 90s. The financial solvency of an automotive manufacturer isn't always directly correlated to the value their cars provide.

[Kolesar]

89. Ha! Apply your own "critique" to Nissan, who was bailed out by Japan for $6,000,000,000

...(That's six billion dollars) a few years ago.

[taught_me_patience]

23. Car and Driver/Motor Week

take advertisement money from the big 3, and, thus, are a biased source of information. If you take a look at consumer reports, which does not have advertisment money, japanese cars almost always perform better in long term reliability then american counterparts.

[EOTE]

28. How about Edmunds?

And you honestly think that C&D and Motorweek don't take money from foreign car manufacturers too? Give me a break. And you think these magazines are biased towards domestics when the BMW 3 series has been in both of their top 10s for the past 20 or so years? Same thing goes for the Accord. And Consumer Reports has gushed about the latest Malibu. Same thing goes for the CTS (which they rate higher than the BMW 3 series or the G from Infiniti, two cars that are darlings of C&D and Motorweek).

[ContinentalOp]

45. I never even heard of a hybrid Malibu so I just looked it up.

29mpg and MSRP starts at $26k. The Prius gets 46mpg and starts at $22k.

The hybrid Camry is the same price as the Malibu and it gets 34mpg.

A regular Accord gets 24mpg, only 5 mpg worse than the hybrid Malibu and it starts at $20k.

So the hybrid Malibu may be a nice car, but if you care about the price or the fuel economy, it doesn't really make any sense to buy it in my opinion.

[EOTE]

50. The Malibu hybrid starts at under 23k.

Which is the same as similarly equipped 4 cylinder versions of the Accord and Camry. Also, real world driving conditions have returned 32 to 34 mpg average highway driving, around the same as the more expensive Camry Hybrid. And just try getting a Prius for around 22k, you just can't do it. And the overall environmental impact of the Prius and the Malibu are pretty much the same. A big reason that GM went with a mild hybrid system as opposed to the full hybrid of the Prius is because you should never need to replace the batteries on the Malibu for the life of the vehicle. The same can't be said of the Prius or the more expensive Camry Hybrid. Both require replacing hundreds of pounds of the suckers.

[Fumesucker]

53. Toyota says they have never replaced a battery pack in a Prius

Other than ones that are damaged in accidents.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm

And Toyota claims that not one has required a battery replacement due to malfunction or "wearing out." The only replacement batteries sold--at the retail price of $3000--have been for cars that were involved in accidents. Toyota further claims that the nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery packs used in all Prius models are expected to last the life of the car with very little to no degradation in power capability.

For those of us who have cell phones and other devices with NiMH batteries, that claim may sound unrealistic. Over time, the battery's charge longevity seems to wane, resulting in shorter and shorter usage between charges. Eventually, the battery becomes worthless and we buy a replacement.

But in the case of most electronic devices, the batteries tend to get fully charged, then nearly fully discharged before being charged again. For the power pack in the Prius, at least, Toyota says this would greatly shorten the life span of the battery.

[EOTE]

59. They must have advanced since the first generation model.

Even accounting for the batteries lasting the life of the vehicle, the sheer quantity of batteries used in a full hybrid system also has an environmental impact, even if they're never replaced. Also, you can get a true mid-size interior and seat five comfortably in the Malibu and (once again, more expensive) Camry hybrids.

[ContinentalOp]

64. I guess you're talking about the impacts of nickel mining?

The batteries themselves are fully recyclable.

[ContinentalOp]

54. I'm sure you can get a better deal on the Malibu than any Japanese car...

considering the current economic situation. But to be fair I just went off of the MSRP listed at each company's website. Still, a quick search of local dealerships shows that the MSRP on Malibus is around $26k which is around what I paid for my Prius.

And you're wrong about the batteries. They have a warranty for 100,000 miles and there are plenty of first generation Priuses on the road with more mileage than that, still running on the original batteries. Note that the car doesn't instantly die as the batteries wear out but the MPG starts to drop.

[EOTE]

56. Mileage drop is a fairly significant factor.

You could supposedly use the car solely with the internal combustion engine and no batteries whatsoever. However, your fuel economy wouldn't be that of a hybrid. No one would be forced to replace any batteries unless you were using a plug-in hybrid, but it still removes a lot of value from the car. Light hybrid systems tend to be easier on batteries than systems like that used in the Prius

[Fumesucker]

63. Not according to Toyota..

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm

To get maximum life out of the Prius battery pack, the car's computer brain does not allow the battery to fully charge or discharge. Toyota says that for the best service life, the Prius battery likes to be kept at about a 60 percent charge. In normal operation, the system usually lets the charge level vary only 10-15 percentage points. Therefore, the battery is rarely more than 75 percent charged, or less than 45 percent charged.

If you're familiar with the Prius, you know there's a battery-charge indicator on the instrument panel. Toyota says this isn't the charge level per se, but rather a state-of-charge window. The top of the window represents about a 75 percent charge, the bottom about 45 percent charge.

According to Toyota, the life of the Prius battery pack is determined more by mileage than by time, and it has been tested to 180,000 miles. Supporting this are first- and second-generation Prius taxis in Canada that have reportedly traveled more than 200,000 miles without suffering any battery problems.

[DainBramaged]

65. DON 'T BOTHER THIS IS AN IMPORT LOVING THREAD, WHY SPOIL THEIR BACKSLAPPING?

[hoboken123]

94. Whining

Very attractive trait.

[ogneopasno]

8. Yeah, but they're still cashing in on those Pathfinders, Titans, and so on, all of which are as ugly

as the car you posted there.

[spoony]

22. Sorry if our pleading for our lives offends your delicate ears

Or interrupts your simplistic "Foreign good, US bad" industry analysis.

:eyes:

[Ioo]

26. I am for the bail out, I know lots of lives are at stake...I do not want to put good money after bad

I want to know why we should give money to the same people that ran the damn comps into the ground? How does that solve the issue?

That is all I ask, for a few heads to roll at the top.

[yurbud]

32. We would help those workers most by getting rid of managers who are more Wall St. scammers than car

builders.

[yurbud]

38. just realized: that sounds like Bush "support the troops" argument. Detroit is using workers as

human shields, claiming that if we don't help the companies, the workers will get hurt.

In reality, the suits don't give a rat's ass about workers and would gladly make them into dog food if they could get away with it.

To really help the workers, you've got to pull the gun execs are holding to their head away.

[TrogL]

29. People think electric cars are zero-emission - they're not

Around here we have basically zero "green" electric energy. No solar, no geothermal, no wind turbines - it's all coal, oil or gas.

I got in a discussion a few weeks ago with someone about renewable energy and he was saying a locally-run electric car must be zero-emissions. I pointed out that the car had to be charged somehow, either by plugging it into the local, polluting grid, or by running its internal engine.

Eventually, he got it.

[LWolf]

35. All depends on where the electricity is coming from.

Zero emission cars won't be "green" unless there is a concurrent investment in alternate energy sources.

[yurbud]

39. even connecting to old fashioned energy, they can be greener than cars because of the efficiency

of large scale generation.

[ContinentalOp]

46. Better to control the emissions at a few power plants than at millions of tailpipes.

And a shift to solar and wind energy will ultimately mean 100% zero-emission cars. But studies have shown that even using dirty coal fired plants, electric cars are less polluting than internal combustion engines.

[crispini]

69. I buy all my electricity from Green Mountain - 100% renewable.

Can't wait to buy me an electric car sometime!

[ContinentalOp]

70. Interesting. I never heard of that company but I just looked them up.

So you're in Texas? And the deregulation there actually allows you to choose your energy provider? That's really difficult to understand coming from CA where deregulation gave us Enron instead of customer choice! I wish we had something like that.

[crispini]

72. Hahaha, yes, I guess deregulation did do a good thing. BUT,

the person I know who has the BEST electricity rate belongs to a non-profit provider out of Garland (of all places) and they don't get to choose, because they're part of a co-op. They do get a good rate, though.

[XOKCowboy]

75. It's all part of a process. While electric cars are being developed...

we get more and more coal and nuclear power on the grid replaced by solar and wind power. If we'd been subsidizing solar and wind since Jimmy Carter suggested it we would be way ahead of the process by now.

[BleedingHeartRN]

40. Good point about the "MBA trust fund babies" ruining companies

My husband is experiencing the ill-effects of what I refer to as "corporate neoptism" now. He works for what used to be a great, progressive company that was experiencing high growth and was a great place to work. Less than two years ago, they started eliminating the guys in management who knew what they were doing in order to promote this little clique who all got their MBAs together into VP positions. They are so top-heavy now, they're all running around like chickens with their heads cut off to prove their worth. No offense to anyone with an MBA, but they're a dime-a-dozen around here and the fundamental problem is none of these yahoos have any experience in the field in which they should be experts. It's caused some serious problems for the company, but boy, they can make one helluva spreadsheet. It's a fine example of the "Peter Principle."

Good for Nissan! We've almost always had a Nissan, and I'm glad to hear that they're going to start mass-producing highly fuel-efficient cars at reasonable price.

[DainBramaged]

43. And when will all of these cars be available to buy????

Gosen was against electrics, now he's for them?

[dysfunctional press]

49. before you reply, you should probably read the post...

# Nissan is bringing the first of their electric cars to market by 2010 in many locations around the United States. According to Alan Buddendeck, Nissan’s VP for North American Corporate Communications, this car will be priced between $22-$25K and have at least a range of 100 miles.

# By 2012, Nissan will be bringing an entire lineup of affordable electric cars (sedans, minivans, compact cars, and sports cars) to the world market. This isn’t just some limited roll-out, and they’re beyond serious about it. Their overarching business plan has been re-written to focus on zero emissions vehicles.

[DainBramaged]

52. We'll see, Goshen has been an electric car disbeliever. Time will tell

until then, Gas by my house is $1.679 a gallon. America will once again ignore the past. Mark my words.

[dysfunctional press]

66. they just had a story on the local news(chicago) about how nissan is pulling out of the auto show...

the story didn't say a word about electric vehicles- only that nissan had no new models to display for the show this year...combine that with this article, and it sounds like they might be overhauling the product line..?

as far as the cost of gas is concerned- i think (hoprfully) that it's going to be different for americans this time- once bitten twice shy- they've had a glimpse of the future that is right around the corner, and it scared some sense into a lot of them.

[Fumesucker]

67. F150 sales are within a percentage point of where they were pre gas spike

So I think that Americans are moving back to big vehicles pretty quickly.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior and we've seen this scenario play out before.

[ContinentalOp]

68. Ouch. Nissan, Suzuki and Mitsubishi all pulled out of the Detroit show too.

As well as Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Land Rover and Porche apparently.

I don't think it has to do with a lack of new models, just that they're trying to save money in bad a bad economy.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081124/AUTO01/811240443/-1/rss
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi081124-autoshownissan,0,1886960.story

[XOKCowboy]

76. That's the Trade Show business for ya...

A cancellation fee is minuscule compared to what they would have paid to exhibit to an audience that wasn't buying. The trade show business is almost as bad as it was after 9/11. I can't blame any of the companies. I do feel sorry for the tradesman who'll lose the work.

[dysfunctional press]

81. the news story said that nissan gave 'no new models' as a reason for it.

nt

[Kalyke]

47. Oh good God - more electrical problems for Nissans to have.

They have tons. I had two different boyfriends have their Nissans lost due to electrical engine fire.

And, that thing is the epitomy of UGLY, to boot.

[Initech]

55. I've been driving my Nissan for a year now. No problems whatsoever.

I think the key is knowing where the car is built. Mine was built in Canton, Mississippi. If you get one that is built in Mexico, that's where you need to watch out.

[Fumesucker]

57. We've had two Nissan Altimas an Infiniti J30 and a G20

Combined mileage nearly a million on the four cars since we buy used and usually with fairly high mileage.

Other than the Bose radio and a knock sensor in the J30 never had an electrical problem.

[Kalyke]

87. And the average American can't afford either of those.

My Mustang cost $20,000. Yours cost $30,000 or better. $10,000 is a lot in today's economy.

I'm speaking of AFFORDABLE cars.

[Fumesucker]

91. Paid $4500 for the J30

Drove it for 100k miles plus.

$2600 for the G20 and drove it for about 80k.

Besides, I was replying to someone who claimed Nissans had major electrical problems and pointing out that the four we owned had two electrical problems among the four in nearly a million total miles.

And the G20 retailed for around $21k new when it was last sold..

Like I said, we buy well used and drive them until the wheels fall off.

[mdmc]

60. go!

[RollWithIt]

71. So ummm, the bailout should force GM & Ford to modernize, pretty simple

Kind of tired of the Ford & GM bashing. I owned a Mustang for years, loved the car.

[Initech]

73. Kick ass. My car loans should be up in 2010.

My next car will use no gas whatsoever. I'll either go with the Honda FCX Clarity or an electric vehicle like Nissan is preparing.

[ContinentalOp]

77. Really? A hydrogen fuel cell car? I think those are B.S.

A $600/month lease!? And where would you refuel? People like Bush and Schwarzenegger love the idea of hydrogen fuel cell cars because they push the finish line further down the road and ignore the fact that we could have electric cars NOW.

[old mark]

93. Hydrogen fuel cells won't happen. It takes more energy to

separate the hydrogen then compress it than is released from it, and that energy would probably be from coal fired plants.
Hydrogen is great in theory, but it is not practical.


mark

[Strelnikov_]

95. Yep

http://www.efcf.com/reports/E21.pdf

[Kolesar]

96. good graphic...eom

[upi402]

74. They have the solution NW! The EV-!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJAlrYjGz8
"Who Killed the Electric Car?" was a great flick. Detroit has it RIGHT NOW, not 2012.

[Kalyke]

88. But the aveage person can't afford it.

Right now, to break even, the Volt would cost $50,000. That's too much. They're trying to get the technology on par with our pocketbooks.

[AngryAmish]

92. How do people without garages charge their cars?

Street parkers.

That will take a lot of infrastructure.