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I worry about the "false centrism" that passes for "moderation" these days.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:58 PM
Original message
I worry about the "false centrism" that passes for "moderation" these days.
The Republicans for years have been on the attack against our party. They planned it that way, they organized it, they used their "noise machine" to destroy the word "liberal". They made Democrats fearful of being too different than the Republicans were. And when the Democrats tried to be like them....they scorned us.

They openly admitted they would not even try to be nice about it all.

Right wing leader said they would be obnoxious in attacking the Democrats.

Our movement must be highly provocative. The thing we have most to fear is that we will be ignored.

Cultural conservatives must understand the predicament we are in. We must be willing to take measures that perhaps we would be unwilling to take under different, more ideal circumstances. We will have standards--we will never try to justify dishonesty, destruction of the personal reputation of our opponents, cheating, assault, etc., in the service of victory for our movement. However, we will not consider ourselves above appearing "unseemly" or surrendering some our personal dignity. We must be willing to shake people out of their complacency--which means being obnoxious if the situation requires it--because given the fact that the dominant leftist culture is safely ensconced, complacency only serves the interests of our opponents.

It is not enough to say that conservative philosophy is more sensible than that of the Left. If we leave it at that, we will only attract "sensible" people to our movement. But "sensible" people do not go to the barricades, they do not make great sacrifices for a movement. And the experience of the conservative movement has shown this to be the case. We need more people with fire in the belly, and we need a message that attracts those kinds of people. As Plato said, "madness comes from God, whereas sober sense is merely human."


They did not want to attract sensible people. They felt sensible people would not go to the extremes required to win.

They had no intention of being nice.

We will maintain a constant barrage of criticism against the Left. We will attack the very legitimacy of the Left. We will not give them a moment's rest. We will endeavor to prove that the Left does not deserve to hold sway over the heart and mind of a single American. We will offer constant reminders that there is an alternative, there is a better way. When people have had enough of the sickness and decay of today's American culture, they will be embraced by and welcomed into the New Traditionalist movement. The rejection of the existing society by the people will thus be accomplished by pushing them and pulling them simultaneously.

We will use guerrilla tactics to undermine the legitimacy of the dominant regime. We will take advantage of every available opportunity to spread the idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with the existing state of affairs. For example, we could have every member of the movement put a bumper sticker on his car that says something to the effect of "Public Education is Rotten; Homeschool Your Kids." This will change nobody's mind immediately; no one will choose to stop sending his children to public schools immediately after seeing such a bumper sticker; but it will raise awareness and consciousness that there is a problem. Most of all, it will contribute to a vague sense of uneasiness and dissatisfaction with existing society. We need this if we hope to start picking people off and bringing them over to our side. We need to break down before we can build up. We must first clear away the flotsam of a decayed culture.


In trying to accomadate that very loud Republican noise machine, many of our Democrats moved their way. It was easier to do it than fight such an overwhelmning media conglomerate. They called it the center, but it wasn't the center at all. It was the conservative right.

George Lakoff pointed out the dangers involved in this kind of centrism. He compliments Obama in trying to work in the true center, but the rest of his words show how hard it will be.

No Center, No Centrists

Barack Obama has it right: Get rid of the very idea of the right and the left and the center. American ideas are fundamentally progressive ideas — the ideas this country was founded on and that carry forth that spirit. Progressives care about people and the earth, and act with responsibility and strength on that care.

....."The very idea that there is a "center" marginalizes progressives
, and sees them as extremists, when they simply share fundamental American values. The term "center" suggests there is a "mainstream" where most people are and that there is a single set of views held by that mainstream. That is false.

..."My colleague, Glenn W. Smith, has pointed to the DLC strategy of getting as many "swing voters" as possible and the minimum number of base voters needed to win. That is why the DLC and Rahm Emanuel argued against Howard Dean's 50-state strategy and for a swing-state alone strategy."

...."But worst of all, the DLC has been cowed by the conservatives. They have drunk the conservative Kool-Aid. As Harold Ford intimated in his debate with Markos Moulitsas: To win you have be a hawk on foreign policy, a social conservative on abortion and gay marriage, and not raise taxes. Nonsense.


Howard Dean talked about this "false centrism" in 2004. I think this very kind of centrism is why we need to be so on guard now in every way. The very ones who have been using this "center" politics for year without realizing they were moving too far to the right....are the ones being put in positions of power right now.

Those like Dean and Lakoff who warned about it are not being heard much from right now.

Here are some words from Dean in 2004 about this "false centrism"...which could easily take over our party for good. This is a turning point for us. It is not about Barack Obama per se. It is about the bubble surrounding him now, and the people who have his ear.

Dean says learning to trust the grassroots is not easy but is necessary to grow the party.

Without the involvement and commitment of people at the ground level, you don't really have a party. You have no pool from which to draw future congresspeople, senators, and presidents. And you have no genuine excitement.

..."He says "the truth is when you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values--so you keep losing.


We have to reconnect to the base.


He has more to say about using that false kind of centrism to fail to connect to the base.

In recent years the Democrats, in our pursuit of big dollars, have neglected the people we're there to serve. We let our connection to our base atrophy and have forgotten, as they say in politics, who brought us to the dance. In service to a falsely named "centrism," we've sidestepped every major request from labor unions, especially on including worker protections in our free-trade agreements.


The quotes are from You Have the Power, 2004.

This may have been from 2004, but it has warnings for us today. Look what is happening now with all the lectures to the big three auto makers and the unions....while Citigroup and others get off without even a slap on the hand.

I don't see that the grassroots have much power right now. Some of the bloggers are coming to that conclusion as well. It's not popular to speak up, but it is necessary when those who advocated that false kind of center are getting all the power.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't have too much to add to your thread except one observation.
As a general rule, whenever someone in the US says "centrist" in terms of economic policy, they usually mean center-rightist or simply a rightist, which should not be confused with the ultra-rightist elements. (A right winger is infinitely better than an ultra-right winger any day of the week) A center-leftist would come across as a "far leftist" in terms of economic policy in the US. Even a proposal for a modest increase in tax rates for the upper 1 percent would invoke accusations of extremism and so forth.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. And "left" is just as bad a word as "liberal" .
Center and right are the only two positions tht are acceptable. The media is amazing, they have done their job well.
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Recommended. n/t
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Repiggies Can Be as Nasty as They Want and Get Away With It. We Can't
That's because they own the news. We don't.

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
61. However, maybe our Change candidate can change that
How about a nice juicy Executive Order that returns the Airwaves to We The People, and undoes all the gains Big Media made under the 1996 Federal Communications Act.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. my thought is this -- obama and others talk about the 'left'
as though we were controlling something -- anything.

we haven't been.

progressives, liberals, leftists -- don't have to absorb the right -- we haven't been 'at war' with them.

it's one of my major objections to this kind of thinking.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's "learned" language from the Republican noise machine.
It really is. I need to go back and read the book again in sections. It is so long, but there is so much in it.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. well yeah -- it comes from paul weyrich and others from the 70s.
my objection is simply that the 'left' will be in the same place they have always been.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I have a thought that maybe if we keep saying that the left is quite intelligent..
that maybe we can change the talking points. :shrug:
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. you would think, huh? nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Or it just might be hopeless. Liberal and Left....they may be permanently damaged.
It took us so long to even catch on to what they were doing....we may never be brave enough to say liberal is a good thing. At least not those in the public eye even in our party...they seem a little ashamed of the "left".
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. you may well be on to something.
the 'left' really does have a thing called 'values' -- but we can't even get those seriously discussed -- i.e. real impeachment based on real infractions.

or a serious discussion of programs that help the working poor, lower and middle classes -- health care spring to mind?

we're in a curious situation.
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scubadude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. Read "On Bended Knee" by Mark Hertsgaard.
He shows how the media is controlled by an astute power wielding administration. The Reagan administration is discussed in the book. Look how successful they were!

These tactics have been in use since before the WWII but were really mastered during that time by the propagandists. Once our media became totally profit driven, during the mid to late 60's, there was little chance for true journalism. Reagan created the "lazy media" phenomena by restricting access to anyone not following the "line of the day" and also by preparing spoon fed stories which were disseminated repeatedly throughout the day. He also pushed through the elimination of the fairness doctrine to drive the last nail into the coffin of the free press.

These factors plus the war to drag our countries self observed identity to the center right. Hopefully by bringing on advisers well mired in the center right Obama will lend an air of accredibility to an actual move to the left. If he can control these peoples message properly and manage the media as the Republicans have for 40 years he may be able to pull it off.

Best,
Scuba
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
50. Nonsense ... after these 8 years, Republican is the dirty word ---
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #50
60. There are already warnings against governing "liberally"...
and not just from Republicans. Our Democratics are just as bad.

Bob Kerrey, Democrat... warned against liberals being dangerous to Obama

Al From, so-called Democrats warns Obama not to be partisan.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
48. Excellent point ...
Except the historical tradition that our nation and all peoples -- equality for all --

the ideals of democracy -- are all liberal concepts.

JFK made a wonderful speech about being a liberal and its true meaning --

I'll see if I can find it --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. JFK on being a liberal --
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Thanks for the link.
Need to reread that.
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zeos3 Donating Member (912 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. Cali and I will dispute your worry. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Feel free to dispute. I am simply giving my opinion.
For what its worth.

Not surprised you will dispute it.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well, *I'm* unhappily surprised you sound disapproving. I've always thought you and I got along. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Did I sound disapproving?
?
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Well, I don't know how to interpret this:"Not surprised you will dispute it." n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Someone always disputes me....it was kind of a joke.
Kind of like a resigned feeling that I would be disputed.

Not directed at you or anyone.

Just that I expect disputes. :evilgrin:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
39. You will dispute the points in the article by making no points?
What kind of argument is that?

Your comment contributed nothing to the discussion.

Stop it.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Ridiculous, I have received personal attacks in my mailbox
for being "gratuitously rude" in responding to a long running dispute between longterm members that does not involve me. This is my and our discussion board. Don't attack people personally and ask me to sit back.

Give me a break, you folks who know who you are. If you have an argument, bring it on. Personal attacks are unwarranted and unwelcome. If some of you think you can carry on longrunning unreasoned PERSONAL disputes on our discussion board then go take a flying leap. Is that gratuitously rude? Sorry.

Bring a reasoned argument or shut up.

And I have been called an immature flamer for fighting for reasonable discourse in a "RUDE" way. Omg, give me a break.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. the current corporate version of "center"
is WAY to the right of any pre-Reagan republican.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Yes, I think so.
They just keep calling it center and hope we won't catch on.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
51. Where was the "center" re Slavery, Genocide, Torture---Equal Rights, Human Rights --????
Such "center" ideas serve only as r-w propaganda for fatal compromise to capitalusm ---
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
17. Centrism is code for conservatism
The "centrist" DLC is the true conservative "party" of the U.S. - as in the party dedicated to preserving the status quo, the most literal definition of conservatism. OTOH the Bush government was a government of the Radical Right, governing very much from its "base". It was a RADICAL government, not a "conservative" one. Hence Obama's victory represents only a political shift from the radical right to mainstream conservatism. From a progressive political perspective there is still an awful lot of swinging left to do.

Bringing on board conservative DLC retreads does not represent a "broadening of the base" nor an attempt to reach out to more "conservative" elements of American society who did not support Obama. The DLC retreads are Beltway insiders who are not the "basis" of anything except that of their well-heeled sponsors. Consequently, honest progressives should feel no need to "reach out" to a narrow group of Beltway elitists - they need to be consistently opposed from Day One. Instead, those that progressives need to reach out to are the so-called "conservative" working class who actually want radical change in the economic sphere, but cannot overcome cultural barriers to support someone like Obama (which, BTW makes Obama potentially an excellent tool for maintaining the divisions in the American working class). The "conservatism" of these are not at all represented by the very real conservatism of the DLC Democrats whose sine qua non is the unconditional defense and preservation of the capitalist system and U.S. imperialist hegemony.

A "centrist" is someone who cannot admit to the systemic failure of the society. Through this stubborn blindness, they reveal their own fundamental loyalty to the social system as a whole.

At some point ya gotta ask the obvious...where's all this corruption coming from anyways.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Interesting post, lots of good points.
I agree the DLC took our party over in the late 80s, and they talk like they are the real party.

They have decided they are the party now, and we are the fringe elements.

Thoughtful post.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. The Radical Right shift really pooped on "conservative" Republicans
I've really seen this out here in the West. People who considered themselves Republicans and voted such for years - completely disgusted by the rightward "values" shift of the Repub party, where economic considerations were nowhere to be seen. Especially older voters.

They either stopped voting or went with Libertarian or Independent candidates. What they want is what they always assumed was "fiscal responsibility."
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. In earlier times
would those that you describe fall into the general heading of 'populist'?

That's a notion that I have gleaned as relates to the strain of political 'conservatism' that is predominate in the West. I could be wrong.

I wonder what is the sense of class consciousness in all of this.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Absolutely
Populist.

Class consciousness is difficult to describe, but the Western experience tends to find us "feeling" as though we're outsiders. There's little economic pragmatism in the wedge-rages and tv churnalism about race, gender issues and religion.

Probably why Independent and Libertarian candidates do better in the West than anyhwere else.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. "A 'centrist' is someone who cannot admit to the systemic failure
of the society. Through this stubborn blindness, they reveal their own fundamental loyalty to the social system as a whole."

What you said.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. I wish I could recommend your post
:thumbsup:
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
23. Quite right.
Now watch this drive :)
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MattSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R
I learned after Dean got "Deaned" in 2004 to be skeptical about everything.

Everything I've observed in the last three weeks tells me it's still a good policy.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. The "left" has less voice when our party is back in power...
than we did when the GOP was in power.

It's easier to push us aside now. They just do not acknowledge our existence.

:shrug:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. How much power did you have when the GOP was in control?
Please. And everyone who disagrees with you is not left but centrist?

Disagree, as usual.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You know what?
Good by for a while. This is a fine post, there is nothing wrong with it....

There is differing, and there is putting down most everything I say. You have been doing that too much lately. Bye for a while.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Too bad you disapprove of discussion when someone doesn't agree
with you on a discussion board. Oh well.

I didn't put down anything, I disagreed.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. You disagreed without making any points, just a personal attack
This is not the first time either.
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suzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #33
45. Reading the news every day about the 'burrowing', the destruction of the civil service...
And remembering all the other outrages of the past eight years, it strikes me that it will take the incoming administration a while just to get back to Center, or even Center Right.

Left may take a little longer.
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hangman86 Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
31. "Intellectual," "bleeding heart," "environmentalist"
Edited on Thu Nov-27-08 11:06 PM by hangman86
These titles are actually used to criticize the left! So many people today say these words as if they were spitting out nasty tobacco. But last time I checked, learning, caring about your fellow man, and caring about the environment were fucking good things. That's how big, and loud and manipulative the right-wing hate machine is. They take our positive qualities and use them against us! And what's saddest off all is that members of our own party by into it.

"Gee I hope I don't come off as too intelligent, caring, and supportive of the environment!"

And that's why so many sheep in this country voted for the exact opposite in 2000 and 2004. Gore was too smart and cared too much about the environment. Kerry was too smart and cared too much about the violence in Iraq. Instead we voted in a dumbass, polluting, war criminal just because he seemed like the best person to have a beer with!:beer: :grr:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. "They take our positive qualities and use them against us!"
Yes, they do. Very good point.

:hi:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
32. Obama ran as a centrist, McCain ran as a conservative
I, for one, and pleased with the campaign he ran and its results.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. Centrism is a MYTH. Don't "centrists" have their own websites?
Repeating the idea that Obama is a centrist is confusing terms. Obama said he was from the Progressive wing of the party. "Centrist" is not mainstream. It is not Independent. "Centrism" as used by the corporate media and some others is a myth.

Lakoff explains in more than just his books that centrism is a false idea. His theories are based upon SCIENCE.

Here is a very brief introduction.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/no-center-no-centrists_b_60419.html

Lakoff books are required reading for every self-identified Progressive.

If after reading his books and still not convinced then maybe science isn't for that person and maybe there is a "centrist" site out there that would better suit those folks.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. Obama rejected the far left's call for a government take-over of the health care system
He also advocted sending MORE troops to Afghanistan.

He moved to the center AND won the election.

Politics is a science, but it is also an art.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Individuals can hold a mix of rightwing and leftwing on different subjects
I appreciate the comment about art and science, I really do. However, it is inappropriately applied.

It does not refute what Lafoff said about "centrism" being a myth.

We are repeating a rightwing FRAME when we use the word center in this way.

FRAMES may be an art, but SCIENCE does explain the effectiveness of framing.

There are so many fears in the public and so little discussion between the general public and the Progressives of our views on healthcare and Afghanistan that PE Obama may have just been being a pragmatist when it comes to these issues. Those two subjects while they can be simplified would require complexity in a discussion that corporate media is unwilling to address.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Pragmatism is a key component of Centrism as opposed to rigid adherence to
an ideology outside of the mainstream.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. No, I disagree with part of your statement. Here is where the art
you talked about comes in. Pragmatism might be considered an artful use of compromise?

Pragmatism is something that either rightwing or leftwing may possess.

Rigid adherence to ideology is in conflict with pragmatism and compromise though.

I cannot confuse compromise or pragmatism with being in the "center".

Thanks for the discussion : )
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Discussion of pragmatism and compromise on DU
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. Welcome to my world.
;)

K&R. :kick:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
41. The Democratic Party ignores Lakoff and Dean at its peril.
I would like to thank you for responding with strength, patience, and kindness to the few that have attacked you personally rather than debate the points you make. It's so much easier to say they disagree and then whine when you respond rather than participate in a reasoned discussion. Will that sort of behavior go away on its own? Is it happening because they are afraid your arguments will somehow undermine support for PE Obama? It's almost like supporting PE Obama is a higher priority than standing up for Progressive values.
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
43. I think about this alot.
Edited on Fri Nov-28-08 07:16 AM by RandomThoughts
The republican smear and fear tactics, and their use of defining and capturing labels to be used against people, and even to rally the meaner side of people has always bothered me. And yes it is on both sides at times. The comment you quoted when the guy spoke about people at the barricades, I can only see him talking about 'manning the barricades' against those on the outside of the system. A system that has benefited the few for a long time.

How do you stand up to someone who just keeps swinging the bat at you. How do push back without becoming them and then losing the high ground, and losing the positive opinions of so many that want a better way.

I think of the part of the movie Gandhi, where the Indian people walked up to the guards knowing they would get hit by the butt of the rifle. But every time the side that wants to be that way, does it, more people see what they really are. And more people walk up to the front to say no to corruption and power.

So how many times can you take the rifle butt... as many times as it takes for people to see who people really are.

I like post like yours, an analysis without anger, just shinning a light on their methods and goals. From your perspective of coarse(not saying it is wrong), but it allows us to think on it, and helps people develop thought on the issues.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
44. Have you heard of "The Tugboat Theory"?
The Tugboat Theory states that when a huge ship or oil tanker comes to port it uses a tugboat to help get it to the dock. The way that happens though is, the tugboat does not try and push the ship sideways or push the bow over to steer it. There is too much inertia involved. The tugboat puts itself right along side the ship in the same direction as the ship and then gradually begins to nudge the ship toward the new direction the tug wants it to take. I think that is what we are going to witness in this center alignment of our country. It is going to be a very gradual realignment. Maybe over a decade or more but with a steady progress toward a new and liberal center for America..
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Had not thought of it that way.
Interesting thoughts. :hi:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. Or ..."You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train" by Howard Zinn ---
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
55. Interesting that, even here at DU,
supposedly "one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards," there is a constant barrage against the left, and a steady pressure to reframe "liberal" as center, rather than "left."
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. I agree, very frustrating it can be, nt
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