"We don't spank!"

[TahitiNut]

Thus said Barack Obama in the Walters interview. They talk. They discuss. They examine the behavior and explore alternatives.

They don't spank.


No wonder those kids don't act like hostages.
No wonder those kids relate PHYSICAL CONTACT with their parents as 100% good.
No wonder they're hug magnets.

Discuss.

:hide:

[dana_b]

1. I agree!

they are not afraid and touch is good. I wish that for all kids.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Time outs work well! I have 3 of my own and no hitting allowed. Spanking is for out of control

parents to attempt to feel a modicum of control.

[CoffeeCat]

6. I agree...we use time outs with our two girls...

...but they are getting older now---8 and 9.

Usually, we end up talking and we discuss. They're "coachable" now, unlike
when they were 3 and 4. That was more difficult, because I couldn't explain
like I do now.

We use time outs now, when someone needs to calm down. I position time outs,
not as a punishment, "Go to your room!" but as a cooling off period, "Look, I
think it would be best if you got some quiet time to calm down, so we can talk.
Why don't you go read in your room for 10 minutes and then we'll talk."

Parenting is difficult enough. I just can't imagine hitting my children.

The dysfunction that would bring to our family--would be paralyzing.

I applaud you for your views on hitting and spanking.

[John Q. Citizen]

12. Yes, as they get older grounding is the new time out. Yet I've not had to do

much, because once everyone is on the same wave length, problems that require punishment are few and far between.

I always tell them, "i hate to have to ground you. I want you to be able to do the fun things you like to do. So lets make things easier for all of us."

[northofdenali]

129. Grounding is the PITS for pre-teens and teens. They hate it,

and it really gets the point across! I confess to having popped my baby girl on the bottom once - she was about to run out in front of a truck and I was mindless with fear. I spent 2 days apologizing, and she was only 3 at the time.

Time outs, talking-tos, grounding - left me with a beautiful, newly married 26 year old daughter who has a masters in computer design and runs her own business. Spanking doesn't get you there!



Good for the Obamas! TRUE family values are finally headed to the White House!

[BrklynLiberal]

3. Violence only begets more violence.

[CoffeeCat]

4. One more reason to love the Obamas...

I love your analysis of this, which is very astute.

Those kids clearly adore and respect their parents. They behave because they
are confident and they know that they are loved.

When you hit--you can get kids who obey. Like you said, "hostages."

The Obama kids are love bugs...they hug their parents often and they
love being hugged and cuddled by their parents. That's obvious.

I imagine that the Obama's spend a lot of time imparting wisdom onto their
children, actually "teaching" them.

It's so hopeful...and healing to see our First Family being so healthy
and nurturing.

It's so refreshing!

Thanks for pointing it out, TahitiNut! No reason to duck behind
your rock wall! :)

[mondo joe]

5. Good for them. My daughters have never been spanked either.

They're stellar students, with a strong sense of social justice.

[Ichingcarpenter]

7. Its a learned behavior from your parents

who were beaten and past that on to you.

Spanking a child lacks a discipline mind. My brother and I said when we had kids
we wouldn't spank since my Dad left red whelps from his belt on my middle brother,
after spanking all three of us.

Its against the law in Scandinavia and in most of Europe now.

If violence is your solution then it will be your curse.

[TahitiNut]

11. Yep. I view it as a "chattel property" tradition.

Drovers used the whip on draft animals. Romans used the whip on galley slaves. Castes beat 'underlings' and monarchists used the whip for 'discipline.'

It follows the pattern of generational child abuse.

(Yes ... I was spanked as a child. Father used razor strap or belt and mother used hairbrush.)

[Ichingcarpenter]

20. Mother would get a Willow branch and father would use his belt

Edited for fencing lessons

Both of them were beaten as kids....

One time me and my brother were sword fighting with real Spanish practice swords in her 'dining room" and my mother told us to put our swords down, my older brother did and then she hit him with a switch.

She told me to put mine down and I said: "En garde" and put up a defense, we had had fencing lessons growing up in France and took it seriously, she smiled and said just wait tell your Dad gets home. I did, and she couldn't help but give me some light taps, because she saw it was funny and ridiculous.

Even thought I was 8 she never spanked me again after that.

[CoffeeCat]

22. That's hilarious!

Wow, you were a wonder child!

I think you were more self actualized at age eight, than your mother was as an adult!

There was a part of you that knew it was wrong, yet you still maintained a sense of humor.

That's a really cool story.

It's almost like...in that moment that you created, your mother was able to see your soul or
your humanity--and she couldn't hit you again.

That's very profound.

[undergroundpanther]

34. I was spanked humiliated

Until I escaped to the psych system.I had to get out of that house,so I asked my mom to take me to a shrink.
But little did I know the cruelty I faced on the adolescent wards would make things worse.I was isolated in a room alone day after day for 18 months and had mind crushing drugs forced into my body.Been restrained, wrapped in cold wet sheets.The years I faced this was 16 to 18.

Adults still believe beating a kid will make the kid submit to this sick thing humans do to each other break the kid make them compliant to demands,make them forget,make them obey sit still shut up.Don't feel and above all bow down to authority bullies.
And this is called being"civilized"??!!

Yes we all grow up to feed the corporate wealthy our time and labors until we die.And this is supposed to be a good thing??

When we let the state,corporation and authority control our lives,when we became civilized we became soul killers,and we pass that disease to the young than complain when they cannot perform or won't obey and kill.

Some people do not want to be slaves they saw what this "process" was in school at home,and do not bow down.
Those who dare to do this will be labeled, crazy, dangerous deviant,evil and they will draw scorn from the ones who gave up their souls to be"civilized",',and the authority figures,and resentful people who do not recognize the source of their angst is slavery will always see those who do not play the massive game of make believe our culture lives with a mixture of denied, but visible fear,contempt and envy.

[Ladyhawk]

29. I was beaten with a belt, too, and after a certain age...

...I vowed never to hit my nephew. One of the many reasons I never had kids was I didn't want to pass on the legacy.

[elleng]

53. (((Ladyhawk)))

Thank you.

[Le Taz Hot]

68. I can relate.

My family has a LONG history of horrific child abuse. I was beaten with whatever was handy and many times had to take "sick days" off from school if they got sloppy and hit outside the "safe zone" (areas not covered up by clothing). Although I knew I would never physically harm any children I might have had, it would have been so easy, in a moment of rage, to "play the tape" and blurt out something devastatingly hurtful. I wasn't about to take that chance. Sadly, my brother has carried on this fine tradition and spanks his own kids. I weep for them often.

[Zuiderelle]

140. I was hit with a belt as well. And also thought I would never want a child because of it.

I'm glad that life changed that for me, and I have a child now, the son of my partner, who came into my life when I was 43 and he was 3. I would NEVER touch our son in an angry way, much less spank or hit him as I was. Having him in my life has healed me in ways I never knew I needed to be healed. My daily mission is to be the parent to him that I never had.

Good on the Obama's! Respect and unconditional love is the way, not spanking. NEVER spanking.

[Dogmudgeon]

8. "Discuss." -- there should be no real need to

Treating children with respect and kindness should be one of those things that everybody just does automatically.

BUT ... before a flame-fest starts, let's keep the blaming to a minimum. Most of the parents who still "believe in" spanking will be easier to reach by discussion than by insults. When attacked for it, people often strongly and emotionally fight for spanking -- the same way you would if you were attacked for something you held near and dear.

Considering that the average spanking now consists of a swat or two, instead of the "good old-fashioned" practice of a ritualized and humiliating whipping, most of the spankers are already more than half way to being non-spankers. A little tact will go a long way, and there are a lot of children who will thank you.

--p!
www.nospank.net

[John Q. Citizen]

15. That's a good point.

[TahitiNut]

88. Very true. We can see it in this and every thread about spanking.

Sadly, the repeated assertion that "spanking is abuse" or other such equally firm assertions doesn't really get through to the parent whose INTENTIONS are (according to them) pragmatic and honorable. Invariably, we hear the hypothetical of the temperamental child for whom no other disciplinary approach "works." What seems to be lost in such an example is the question of what "works" means. Did the child become less temperamental (more controllable)? Why? What REALLY changed? What other changes (effects) took place? How does the threat (it only takes once for the threat to be present every time) of physical pain at the hands of the parent change the child's understanding of the world, their own behavior, and their relationships with others?

We'll hear the iconic "This hurts me more than it hurts you." What's the lesson in this? Since when is fear any kind of substitute for love and respect?

More significantly, I believe, we have a question of how the adult-to-be finds motivation for any of their actions and efforts for the rest of their life. Are we to be more ruled by fear or love? Do we choose a behavior based on the fear of consequences if we DON'T act in that way? Do we work for a living because of fear of the consequences if we don't? Or do we choose labors of love? What's wrong with people choosing to live their lives based on a love of self, love of accomplishment, love of learning, and love of relationships with others? Why do we choose to 'train' our children and each other based on fear? Fear of starvation. Fear of being fired. Fear of losing the love of another. (What happened to unconditional love? Why don't more people even comprehend what that means?)

Do we spend more of our lives running toward what we love or running away from what we fear?

Why?

[pipi_k]

95. I agree...

even if it's only a "slap on the behind" and the parent says it changed the kid's behavior....

well, why is that?

is the kid now doing what he's supposed to do even when nobody is looking because he's been taught a value system?

or does he do what he's "supposed to do" so he can avoid punishment?


sounds something like the rationalizations for religion, if you ask me.

How many people only do what's right so they don't go to hell (get punished)?



I really have a lot more respect for people who spanked but feel awful about it than I do for people who spanked but see nothing wrong and insist they were "good parents".

I don't trust the judgment of anyone who insists they were a "good parent". As far as I'm concerned, the only good parents are the ones who question themselves.

[JackBeck]

9. We talk to our kids.

They MUST be fascists.

[elleng]

10. Should anyone wonder about the fruits of spanking:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

[Qibing Zero]

13. I saw that, and it was a breath of fresh air...

..amongst the cabinet pickings! Maybe there is hope, after all. ;)

[Jennicut]

14. My 3 and 4 year old respond to one thing...Daddy's raised voice saying "knock it out"

That is about it. I don't like spanking and they learn nothing, the time outs they won't sit through and the younger one throws tantrums during it. Reasoning is out with a 3 year old but the 4 year is getting easier to talk to. Tough ages. But they don't like their father talking in a louder tone at them at all. Not yelling, just louder. It does not work with me, I am home all day so they tune me out. They really stop the hitting, biting, taking toys away from each other. Anyone got any better tips? LOL.

[CoffeeCat]

17. I stay home with my kids too...

...and I found that going places really helps lessen bickering.

I'm sure you know this and do lots of things with your kids.

I find that even if we leave and go to the park or the grocery store--that they get along better. Adding
other kids into the mix helps too. Having a playdate with other kids always keeps them busy and fighting
less.

Also, if they have "personal space"--even if they are at the same table, helps out. If I give them a load
of Playdough or art supplies, they can do their own thing and get a break from each other, while they get
lost in their own creative energies.

I think fighting happens when they get bored. At least that's what I remember, when they were both young
and not in school full time (mine are in 2nd and 3rd grade).

I'm just warning ya now...time goes so fast! You blink--and yours will be in 2nd and 3rd grade too!

[Jennicut]

25. Yeah, they need time apart for sure. They are both girls too.

The older one goes to nursery school now and is making new friends but the younger daughter feels a bit left out and lonely when her sister is gone, though she needs a breather too. They are only 12 1/2 months apart-its almost like having twins. They do ballet together too. Its tough when we have lots of days off like right now, for Thanksgiving, and its cold outside (I live in CT). Short attention spans, plus they are double trouble if left alone in a room by themselves for more then 5 minutes. I will never forget the day I got out of the shower and they were both covered head to toe in baby powder. The older one got it out of the hallway closet after she pulled a chair over there! The two of them together, left to their own devices is never a good idea. I love them both though and know they will grow up fast.

[CoffeeCat]

30. Oh this takes me back...

Your kids sound like so much fun! When they're close in age like that, they're like two little partners in crime.
I think they're more creative when it's two sisters looking for something to do--hence the baby powder.

Do you write that stuff down? Oh, you'll want to, and they'll want to hear these wonderful stories. My kids
once dumped an entire bottle of Spongebob bubble bath in the whirlpool tub, and they turned on the bubble jets
full blast. The bubbles were up to the window--no kidding. We took many pictures. They were standing up and
you could barely see their faces peeking out. I stepped out for a minute or two!

Mine are 15 months apart. I do know that it is like having twins. They're both in diapers together and they
go through most everything together. I'm sure you get asked a lot if they are twins. We get that at least
once a week.

We're in a cold state too--Iowa. It's challenging during the winter. It's a lot of work just getting them
bundled to go somewhere! We did get a pass to the Science Center and the Zoo (they have an inside area), so
we do that a lot. We'll probably do that at least once over break.

When they're little like that, they love to go anywhere. There were days that we would take "field trips."
We'd go to PetSmart and look at the animals. Or we'd go grocery shopping. McDonald's has a Playland and
we would do that every once in a while. The library is always good, too!

[Jennicut]

35. The bubblebath thing, already done. They dumped all my conditoner out in the sink

the other day to wash the hair of their Barbies. I was cooking dinner of course. I have written a lot of stuff down over the last few years. They really are my little partners in crime but they are so adorable its hard to get/stay mad. They love aquariums and museums and just little trips to the supermarket or even Iparty to look at Halloween and Christmas decorations. They sure are fun but I am exhausted going to school part time and watching them most of the day. I am studying to be a preschool teacher so I practice my lesson plans on them! I really need to go to bed though and get up early to cook our turkey so good night and thanks so much.

[auntsue]

27. I was a nanny

to two boys 3 and 5 - Of course spanking was not an option and I don't do it anyway. Children want to please and to receive approval so I got a lot of mileage out of "the look" and "withholding attention".
I used a time out towel in a corner or some times I would say, "If you're going to be like that I don't want to be around you." OOOO they didn't like that - so mostly we had fun and some times if they got out of line I would just stop talking and put my hand at my sides - they'd "get it " pretty quick

[northofdenali]

130. Ah, yes.............. The Look.............

I remember it well from my own mom, who is now 92, and can still give you The Look and have you cringing.........

[alittlelark]

16. My kids would likely prefer spankings to the 1-2 hour 'talks'

we have with them when the need arises.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

18. We have never

used spanking - My kids are now 8 and 9 and they are horrified by the thought of parents hitting their kids. I was not only spanked, I was beaten and had some pretty terrible injuries due to a maniac mother and a spineless father who would never dare say anything to defend me. I was emotionally abused and physically abused. I could never do that to my children - they are not my PROPERTY. They are special, little souls who deserve to be treated with love and compassion.

Yes... they have pissed me off but spanking? Never.

[CoffeeCat]

21. My kids are the same ages as yours...

...and we don't spank at all.

I was raised like you, as well. I had a manic mother who had very serious problems, and I suffered
great physical and emotional abuse.

I think it's amazing that we were able to not repeat that cycle. It seems like many in this thread
were physically abused, but didn't go on to do the same. That's really remarkable and commendable.

I consider myself the matriarch of a completely new family--one where children feel loved and nurtured, not
fearful and hopeless.

I try to do a good job. I know what NOT to do, but my parents were such bad role models, I'm kinda
figuring it out as I go along, with my husband.

"Special little souls who deserve to be treated with love and compassion." Well said!

[QueenOfCalifornia]

24. Awwww....

:pals:

[npk]

19. 100% agree with the Obamas

There are always better alternatives to spanking a child.

[cliffordu]

23. I don't have any kids and I still spank.

uh......wait a minute.......


:hide:

[undergroundpanther]

26. Spanking is horrible

it breaks trust.
Imagine being HIT by an adult who says if you hit a sibling or neighborhood kid bullying you,that hitting is wrong,this is coming from someone bigger,who knows more than you(as a kid) knows,Someone who you totally depend upon for EVERYTHING.Someone who says they love you.

Words VS actions, disparity/dishonesty,that is the definition of abuse, it is the mind fuck at the core of it.
Don't Spank.Yeah parents it takes effort to control yourselves, but be the adult, not the bully in the equation.Don't hit your kids.Remove yourself,give YOURSELF a time out.Whatever but do not hit.If adults were treated and dehumanized as kids are treated by too many adults they'd be howling for a lawyer. Think about it.If what you call "discipline" is done to your child ,would get you arrested if you did it to another adult,why is it OK to do it to your own child.WTF??!!
If you do not want bullies don't teach your children to be one by BEING one,parents.If you don't want to be victimized don't set your children up to think being a victim is a normal part of a relationship by victimizing them. Have the self control yourself,parents, to stop the cycle of violence.



"As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”
BORIS SIDIS, from "A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education" in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919
http://www.nospank.net/main-x.htm
http://www.nospank.net/

[Ladyhawk]

28. The father of the 8-year-old sociopath did spank.

It may not mean anything. :shrug:

[JohnnieGordon]

31. Only a Marxist pinko would spare the rod! n/t

[CoffeeCat]

33. Only a cowardly bully...

...with no self esteem would find pleasure in powering up on a defenseless, innocent child.

Abusers are the biggest cowards in the world.

[JohnnieGordon]

57. I was obviously being sarcastic

Or at least I thought I was obvious!

[ConsAreLiars]

32. Whenever I worry about Obama's appointments and such, I remember Sasha and Melia

in the full glare of public attention, enough to turn most kids into self-consciously awkward poses or attempts to find cover, just simply being a part of and enclosed in their family. Happy, healthy, vibrant. Not fearful or constrained.

Spanking and beating and yelling doesn't get that result.

My kids were never hit, and both are caring and progressive and make me proud.

[Ichingcarpenter]

39. The cycle of Violence is hard to stop

both me and my brother made the effort to stop that pattern.
But a rapier wit can do damage too that can also wound the soul
and leave scars the rest of their lives.

We all still have far to go and must realize children are little human beings too.

[ConsAreLiars]

42. I had a mixed upbringing.

Almost completely benevolent, but one episode sticks out - my German grandpa got out the razor strap and taught me that being able to hurt someone smaller is not the kind of power I would ever respect or bow down to. I refused to cry, and all he got for his trouble was adding one more push toward me turning into a commie pinko gay-loving hippy egalitarian.

[Ichingcarpenter]

45. My name is Luka

My name is Luka
I live on the second floor
I live upstairs from you
Yes, I think you've seen me before.

If you hear something late at night,
some kind of trouble some kind of fight
Just don't ask me what it was,
Just don't ask me what it was,
Just don't ask me what it was.
I think it's `cos I'm clumsy
I try not to talk too loud,
Maybe it's because I'm crazy
I try not to act too proud,

They only hit until you cry,
and after that you don't ask why
You just don't argue anymore,
You just don't argue anymore,
You just don't argue anymore.

Yes, I think I'm okay
Walked into the door again,
If you ask, that's what I'll say
and it's not your business anyway

I guess I'd like to be alone
with nothing broken, nothing thrown
Just don't ask me how I am,
Just don't ask me how I am,
Just don't ask me how I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZyxYL753w4

[ConsAreLiars]

51. Thanks. Being hurt, as she describes/sings is far different from

the relatively harmless experience (like mine) of being hit and getting pissed.

(edit out stray ".")

[Ichingcarpenter]

52. Well, Its still one my favorite songs

But, I think its as much for grownups about grownups.

Or governments against citizens.

Than it is for just a kid called Luka.

[stlsaxman]

64. one of the greatest, most powerful songs ever written. thanks.

[undergroundpanther]

46. thank you

For remembering the cruelty of verbal abuse, and the terrible wounds that verbal abuse causes.
Sometimes what a bully thinks is funny is actually sadistic verbal abuse.
If we want a world that can handle freedom and peace we must
stop abuse. Stop it especially for the kids..words can hurt like a knife in the heart.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[byronius]

37. Two kids, no spanking, ever. Straight A's, good kids.

I grew up hating spankers. Still have a bad violence trigger about it. People who do it in front of me get confronted.

[AyanEva]

38. I was spanked

I turned out fine and I consider my parents to be excellent parents. I think calling them cowards and bullies is completely unfair and serves no useful purpose. Not to mention, it's kind of offensive. In moderation, I see nothing wrong with it. It's old fashioned but if done right, it works. Now my parents version of spanking was just enough to sting a little and never with metal parts of belts or hard wooden spoons or the hard heels of shoes (house shoes with rubber soles, that's a different story). It was actually fairly rare that they did it and we REALLY had to screw up for them to resort to that. Usually it was "go to your room" or being sent to a summer camp that we hated or something. This is probably because both grandfathers beat their kids (my parents) more than spanked them and my parents were very careful NOT to be like their parents. I think it's more prevalent in the Black community, although it's certainly not a hard and fast rule.

[Luminous Animal]

40. Spanking is abuse

Yes, spanking is physical abuse. It sole purpose is to mold behavior through pain and fear.

[AyanEva]

41. To a certain extent

When parents go overboard, it is. In moderation, I really see nothing wrong with it. I have the feeling we're never going to agree on this point. My parents were NOT abusers and I love them dearly. While you have every right to judge them, I have every right to strongly disagree with your judgment. I honestly think the difference in perspective is because it was definitely a cultural thing for us. I do respect your opinion, I just happen to disagree with it.

Meh. I think I'm the only one in this thread with this particular opinion. It's probably best if I just leave. :/

[Luminous Animal]

47. I was spanked, too.

Nearly everyone my age was spanked by both parents and teachers.

When my mother saw how my sister and I were raising our children, she apologized to us. This apology was totally unprovoked. We'd never complained to our parents or "took them to task" for spanking us. We are adults, after all, and understand the norm of the times. My sister and I adored our parents. Our home was our sanctuary. But we both decided the one thing we could do without with our own children is raising them with fear of physical abuse.

The difference of perspective is, quite simply, changing your perspective and living a different life.

[undergroundpanther]

49. cultures can be cruel

It is normal in some in some middle eastern cultures to cut off the clitoris of young girls.Thier mothers, older sisters,aunts do it to them.It is a "rite of passage" they say, it is religion, it is a cultural norm over there. If you think culture is an excuse to hit someone smaller than you who is totally dependent on you you are mistaken it has NOTHING to do with culture...Culture,it is not valid excuse, it is like all other excuses our culture employs to protect the one hitting and the fantasy of ownership.It is denial.In this way you perpetuate the suffering.

[surrealAmerican]

66. You may be taking some of the statements on this thread ...

... too personally. ALL parents make some mistakes, it doesn't mean they're bad parents, only that they're fallible humans. I remember being spanked a few times myself, and would certainly not describe my parents as abusive.
I think when I was a child most parents were lead to believe that spanking was a "normal" part of raising children. They didn't even know they were supposed to look for alternatives. It didn't make them bad parents or bad people, but it still was not the best way to let their child know they'd done something wrong.
Now most parents do have some impression that spanking is not the only way to raise children. Parents who feel they have alternatives, don't spank. The negatives effects of spanking always outweigh the supposed benefits.

[Silent3]

79. I have no children of my own...

...so in some ways this is a bit theoretical to me. I, of course, do have my own experience as a child, and I don't think my parents, who did spank, were very good parents.

That said, I find it hard to believe that all kids can be talked into good behavior in all situations. For example, what do you do when kids are pre-verbal, old enough to cause lots of harm but not old enough to understand a lecture on the dangers of touching a stove, or why it's wrong to drag the cat by the tail, or wrong to draw all over the wall with crayons?

Even if it's not spanking, at some point some sort of physical intervention is going to be necessary I'd think -- slapping the hand that's reaching for the stove, rescuing the cat, taking the crayons away.

What about the fact that children are temperamentally different, and that examples of particular parents raising well-behaved kids without ever spanking just might not prove a universal truth that applies to all situations?

The big problem with my parents and the spanking they did is that they were quite obviously angry and not in control of their anger. The way they bickered angrily with each other underlined their own lack of emotional discipline. However, despite having grown up with that, I can see some limited situations where spanking, done in a controlled way with the right attitude, could be effective, non-abusive, and end up leading to kids who are better adjusted rather than traumatized.

There must be some studies on this sort of thing, and maybe even a few without no driven by obvious agenda or bias. What does the data say?

[BoneDaddy]

111. Thank you for some reason

it is refreshing to hear it.

[Number23]

139. Exactly

I can see some limited situations where spanking, done in a controlled way with the right attitude, could be effective, non-abusive, and end up leading to kids who are better adjusted rather than traumatized.

I feel exactly the same way. I have a two year old now and have a three step "discipline" process: if she deliberately does something that mommy has told her not to do 1) mommy gets down to her level, looks her dead in the face and says "stop it." If she does it again 2) she gets a time out on mommy's lap for a few minutes. If she (willfully, foolishly) does it again 3) she gets the two taps on the hand and more time out on mommy's lap. We haven't had any issues beyond step 3.

And to be honest, I was spanked and I could never see myself spanking my baby the way I was spanked. Never. But this idea from the folks on this thread that 2 and 3 year olds can be "reasoned" with is mind-blowing. I'm sure everyone just loves it when their kids come over. :eyes:

[Number23]

138. No, you're not the only one with this opinion

I honestly think the difference in perspective is because it was definitely a cultural thing for us.

I was spanked too. The person who spanked me the most was my grandfather, and I would have walked through fire for that man. He was the most loving person I know. And he WHUPPED MY ASS when the need arose. Belts, switches the whole nine.

There are lots of different reasons for spanking, and some are good and some are bad. My grandad was a black man growing up in the South in the 1920's and had to endure things that many folks on this board could never imagine. Stuff *I* could never imagine. And he was not abusive but he was determined that I would understand what was and was not acceptable behavior. And you best believe I learned that lesson well.

[undergroundpanther]

44. From one luminous

Animal to another,I agree with you it IS abuse and must be called what it IS.IF we are to ever break the generational cycle of abuse that creates this culture of denial and authority games .Saying one thing and denying it by action,our culture condones abuse. I think children are human beings worthy of not being treated as chattel or emotional dumping grounds for frustrated parents,or parents denying how cruel their own parents were..Kids are beaten humiliated or even raped by parents who also say they 'love' them it's pretty common for abuse to happen.This is why our society is so sick.

[Luminous Animal]

48. If we can't respect the weakest amongst us...

we will never grasp compassion.

[undergroundpanther]

50. Yes

But to learn compassion some will have to give up habits of domination and let that lie called"authority" over others and'ownership' of children die.Those with power are loathe to identify with those without it.Because when they do they might feel shame and remorse guilt and horror at what they have done.And people with power do not want to face reality that they can harm others and do,and the reality of how power is abused in their own hands.

[BoneDaddy]

112. Why do you point to the most extreme cases

to make your point. It is not abuse to spank your kids when appropriate

[BoneDaddy]

108. Sometimes pain and fear are necessary

Now I am not saying it should be the first, second or tenth option, but it is an option and necessary at times.

[NNN0LHI]

62. If you grew up thinking spanking was alright you didn't turn out fine

Any time a grown up person uses there physical size to beat up on a little kid for any reason it is abuse.

You were abused. Take my word on this one.

Don

[undergroundpanther]

43. A thought...

It's easier to say that in the second World War the Jews were passive. It's easier to say that the homeless bring it on themselves, that rape victims are asking for it, that molested little girls are too seductive and children who are beaten are most likely hard to handle anyway. The paradox is, as a result of our very blamelessness, people just don't like us -- or rather, what we as victims represent.

In Blaming the Victim, William Ryan looks at the way American society blames poverty on the poor, rather than on inequality. He argues that people blame the victim to maintain the status quo. They're concerned, but they won't take action. To do that, they would have to give up something.

I'm no social scientist, but I can see how this works for child abuse. To take action, people would have to acknowledge that most child abuse is committed by relatives and family friends. We would have to admit the vicious reality that people who are supposed to love can act as if they hate. This violates everything we want to believe about ourselves and stains our vision of the family. But the fact is, if we honored our children, we wouldn't beat them. What's more, we wouldn't let others beat their children. Instead, we have a form of slavery in which parents -- especially fathers -- have near-absolute power over their children. We respect ownership rights, and call it respect for privacy.

Yet we know that child abuse is horrible. We know it's a blight upon our social landscape. Perhaps because we know just how bad it is, we work hard to shut it our -- by interpreting that scream down the hall as high spirits. That thump overhead as an accident. We seek culprits outside the family -- most recently at day care centers. No one wants to point a finger at the real perpetrator.

William Ryan says people "reconcile their self-interest with their humanitarian impulses" through an artful compromise--blaming the victim. It's a tidy and convenient solution: no real systematic change is called for; the roots of abuse and injustice go untouched. To admit how many children are violated in the garden of family love would be to admit the soil is poisoned.


This sizable population of adult survivors has not yet organized and is barely recognized. Much can be done to help us; little is, reflecting individual and collective inability to face the truth. To quote Alice Miller, "How is anything ever to be changed in a society if cruelty is not seen for what it is?

http://nospank.net/silence.htm

[Dogmudgeon]

54. Not just Michelle and Barack -- also Mary and Abe

From http://www.nospank.net/riak131.htm

... the parenting style of President and First Lady Lincoln. Their housekeeper, Mariah Vance, tells this story:

The missus always seemed to favor Willie. She said, "Willie, precious, tell Mother what you and Taddie were doing."

Willie was smart, and he answered meekly, "We were only playing."

But the missus asked, "How playing? Tell me about the pipe and this smoke. Give me the pipe, Taddie."

Taddie held the pipe in back of him for a spell, and then finally shoved it toward her. The missus looked at it, smelled it, and said, "Come to Mother, boys."

Taddie boldly stepped forward, but Willie hung his head and lingered.

"Now, boys," she said, "I know you were playing, but this is an order from Mother. No more such playing."

"But Mother," Willie said, "those men at your party last night smoked and chewed and you didn't tell them to stop. Why should they have more privilege in our home than we have?"

She answered: "Men can choose or can limit themselves when it comes to vices. But little boys must be guided or directed by parents who love them. Your father would not do what he would not have his boys do. You know he would not want you to pattern yourselves after men who are careless about their habits. Don't you want to please your dear father?"

They both of course said they do. No spanking, no scolding. That was the way Mr. Abe and the missus managed those boys. I never saw anything like it, for those boys went back to making soap bubbles without another word.

--p!

[H2O Man]

55. Very good!

Nominated.

[okieinpain]

56. sorry me and my wife spanked. n/t.

[Prophet 451]

58. Good for them

Spanking kids... Every piece of research I've ever seen says it does nothing except relieve the adult's feelings. People use all kinds of euphemisms, my favourite being "discipline". "Discipline", as Terry Pratchett once said "means 'do what I want or I'll hit you'".

Here (England), there is a common misconception that spanking has been banned (it hasn't) and every time the BBC has a topic on it, the board (which is, like many, dominated by the extreme right) comes alive with idiots protesting that the reason our youth is apparently so terrible is because they weren't hit often enough. The solution to a youth culture already infested with violence is apparently to inflict even more violence on it. Spanking doesn't instill discipline, it instills fear.

As for adult sex games: Does nothing for me but hey, so long as we're talking consenting adults, have at it.

[Jack_DeLeon]

59. I wish more parents would spank and discipline their kids in public...

It was rare that I was spanked when I was growing up because I was a well behaved kid.

However not all kids are, different circumstances require different actions.

Its sad when you go out somewhere and there is a mom shopping with her kid and they are just acting up and screaming at the top of their lungs. The parent does nothing and just acts indifferent, are they hoping the kid will just shut up on its own, are they are afraid that if they discipline in public people will say something, or do they just not care anymore and want to die? I have no clue but I wish they would just smack the kid tell them to shut up so the rest of us wont have to put up with their kid.

[mnhtnbb]

61. Discipline does not require spanking. It does require letting children know

that unacceptable behaviors will have consequences.

I was spanked and beaten with a belt as a child; I raised two boys without spanking. They did not misbehave in public. I also knew when to take them with me, when they'd had enough, when they needed a snack or a break from shopping.

One son is a freshman at UNC - Chapel Hill with excellent grades; the other son is working and successfully living on his own.

I hate seeing small kids being smacked around in public. They are behaving that way because
parents have not figured out what the kids need--and sometimes kids do not need to be dragged
around shopping all day--whether it's love, attention, or discipline.

[surrealAmerican]

67. There are other alternatives.

You don't, as a parent, choose between hitting your kids or completely ignoring them. I do agree that letting your children misbehave in public is wrong, but that doesn't make hitting them right. You might try wishing those parents would pick the kids up and leave.

[JerseygirlCT]

70. Not the way to handle the situation AT ALL

Spanking would do nothing to settle that.

The child needs to be removed from the situation. Unfortunately, the parent usually doesn't want to leave - it's not what *they* want. That's what you're running up against there - parents who don't want to be bothered. It's not the kids who need disciplining there - it's the adults.

Hitting children because they're bothering *you* is sort of sad. So I hope you're kidding.

[WhollyHeretic]

71. "I wish they would just smack the kid tell them to shut up" I really fucking hope you never

have kids or are even allowed around them.

[pipi_k]

77. Why are the kids acting that way?

Because their mother LETS them.

It's not their fault, it's hers.

So what's the answer to that?

Just smack them. Inflict pain and humiliation on a kid just because its mother never taught it how to act in public. Kids don't learn this stuff on their own, you know...they aren't born knowing how to act like human beings.

So lets see how this solution doesn't even make sense...punish the kid for not knowing how to act because his dumbfuck parent didn't teach it.

Yeah...good one.

Oh, and the kid is making noise already...so smack it and cause it to really scream and holler.

That makes sense too.

:sarcasm:

[gollygee]

86. Spanking for tantrums doens't reduce tantrums at all

They should move the tantruming kid away if at all possible so he/she doesn't annoy everyone else, but the best thing for a tantrum is to simply wait it out.

[glowing]

123. You know what I do, now that he's 4.. doesn't work with a 2 yr old..

but if he starts whining or acting out in public.. which doesn't happen often anyway.. I do it back to him.. he looks at me like I'm crazy, and then gets embarassed because he knows that he looks like an idiot.

[Fireweed247]

126. that's a great idea

I do that sometimes, start acting like the kids with my husband and then everyone starts cracking up. Breaks up the mood and helps with self reflection.

[JCMach1]

60. The difference is GOOD PARENTING...

in this case...

However, someone should write a book: "When Bad Kids Happen to Good Parents"

[stlsaxman]

63. and hence a wonderful First Family Elect!

thanks TahitiNut!

[AccessGranted]

65. Hmmmm....Guess I'm A Bad Parent (I Smacked My Children)

I raised three sons alone as I got divorced when they were small and it's hard as hell to raise boys into men by yourself. They were pretty good kids, but they did act a fool sometimes and I cannot tell a lie, I had to jack them up a few times and give them an ass-whooping and I'm not ashamed. They are 16, 23 and 25 now and productive members of society, happy and three of the sweetest, most pleasant, polite young men you'll ever meet. We all have a great relationship - lots of respect, love, friendship and understanding and sometimes we laugh at the times I had to whack the crap out of one of them. They are also extremely close to each other and love each other very much.

Of course, as an intelligent, rational parent, I did consider everything and talked to them about things they did or didn't do. We discussed and explored alternatives, but there are times when quick disciplinary action is called for. Like the time we were in the grocery store and I told all three of them to go to the cereal aisle and pick out some cereal. An old lady walked up to me and said, "Miss, do you have three sons?" I said yes and she said, "Well, they are fighting in the cereal aisle." I went over there and all hell had broken loose. After I got them all separated and they all pointed the finger and blamed each other I let them have it. Yeah, I know violence for violence is never good, but oh well. That was one of only two fights they ever had and that's when they were very young. I never left them alone in the cereal aisle again.

Well, I must have done something right because they don't drink, no drugs, totally respect females, no police involvement. I hated to do it, but try turning three sons into decent men by yourself and keep them in line. My mother used to beat me senseless when I was a kid - hot wheel track, tree branches, go-go boot, belt - whatever she could grab. I have never, ever been that harsh, except for the occasional whack. I always hated that and thought it was a cruel method of discipline but as a parent I did what I had to do. That time-out, sit-in-the-corner, you-can't-watch-tv crap doesn't work and I couldn't say "I'm going to tell your father".

[WhollyHeretic]

72. "I had to jack them up a few times and give them an ass-whooping"

You should be ashamed.

[BoneDaddy]

76. Shut up

God some liberals are so fucking judgemental.

[WhollyHeretic]

78. Yes I am judgmental about child abuse.

[BoneDaddy]

98. A smack on the ass

is not child abuse. Child abuse is strapping a kid to a chair and whipping them with an extension cord. I work with DYFS cases ALL the time and even they do not consider spanking child abuse.

[AccessGranted]

81. Don't You Just Love Perfect People?

Whew!

[BoneDaddy]

101. Yeah

it gets really really tiring and typically this kind of crap comes from people with no kids.

[WhollyHeretic]

107. I do have a son. I have managed to raise a very kind child without hitting him

[BoneDaddy]

109. Wow how tough is it to be so perfect like you

congratulations.

[WhollyHeretic]

110. Thanks. It is nice to be intelligent enough to raise a child without resorting to violence.

[BoneDaddy]

113. I guess not intelligent enough

to recognize sarcasm however. Although I am pretty sure you were trying to be superior once again.

[WhollyHeretic]

115. I didn't recognize your sarcasm?

:rofl: :rofl: You are pretty funny but I'm guessing you don't know why. Have a good day.

[shanti]

125. did you raise three sons by yourself??

BIG DIFFERENCE!

[H2O Man]

127. I raised two.

[shanti]

133. by yourself?

we're talking single mom here...

[AccessGranted]

80. Those Are Just Slang Expressions People Use......Duh!

Of course I didn't whoop my children's asses or abuse them. Yes, I spanked them. Would you like to write properly. What planet are you from? Have you never used American slang? Silly.

[AccessGranted]

83. Why Did You Just Post That One Line....Are You From Fox News?

Did you really even read what I wrote or just "jump the gun" - That it was just isolated incidents to stop them from fighting as boys often do when they are young. Oh, I guess I shouldn't say "jump the gun" either. It's a slang expression.

[Zuiderelle]

141. It's one thing to make a mistake and express remorse...

But you almost seem proud of the fact that you used physical abuse, and sorry, but, that's what spanking is, to discipline your boys. Isolated incidents, great. But you don't even express remorse for those isolated incidents. There's no judgment from me for making a mistake, but there's judgment when you don't even feel bad about it.

Hitting a child is wrong, no matter what the circumstance. This coming from a child who was hit for anything and everything. It didn't change anything, but love would have changed everything.

[Midlodemocrat]

136. .

:applause:

[babylonsister]

131. I was one of 5 recipients of a spanking occasionally, and

we're all alive and kicking; the baby just turned 50.


Like you did, we were disciplined. I have no problem (now) with it.

And I know kids that weren't who caused endless big problems for their folks.

One is not better than the other, depends on the kids and situation.

[JerseygirlCT]

69. Not surprised

I would have been shocked to hear differently. And very, very disappointed, needless to say.

You do not need physical violence to raise good kids. I know. I've got two of them myself. I rarely have raise my voice, in fact.

[pipi_k]

73. Parents who spank are terrorists

and let me tell you why...

I was spanked as a child. I was also slapped in the face, kicked in the ass, shoved, threatened with physical violence, and verbally abused.

I grew up expecting that anyone who was angry with me would express their anger through physical violence. That made me afraid of "making" anyone angry. It also taught me that, while being hit (and verbally abused) was a scary prospect, it was probably "normal". And so I got into a series of relationships that a person who had never grown up that way would ever tolerate...because being abused is NOT "normal"...and should not be.

Ever.

So, yes...I believe that parents who spank or call their kids names are terrorists of a sort...although they're really only passing on what was done to them as children.

The cycle has to stop.

[BoneDaddy]

75. No you were physically abused

and parents who spank are not terrorists. I love when people do shit like this. It is not only drama queen behavior it is totally judgemental. You take an infantile black or white view of the world and see no gray.

On one end of the continuum you have child abuse and I believe you were closer to that end. Most people fall in the middle. I believe that spanking should be rare and that those parents who give a crack on the ass every once and awhile are still good people. If as a parent you resort to spanking as the first option all the time, well then that certainly needs to be looked at.

[pipi_k]

85. Excuse me, but

if you knew me better you would definitely not say to me that I see things in terms of black and white.

Let me tell you something...even a slap on the behind, for some kids, would set them up for feeling worthless, depending on the psychological makeup of the child.

Parents who spank or slap like to justify their actions by saying they only do it to "get the kid's attention"

bullshit.

There are only two scenarios involved in spanking a kid...either the parent is angry when he does it, or he is not angry.

If the parent it angry when he spanks a child, it means he has lost control of the situation.

If the parent waits till after he's cooled down to spank the child, it means he's spanking the kid long after the incident that triggered the spanking has passed. Kind of cold blooded, if you ask me.


And if a parent spanks when he's angry there's only ONE message that's being sent out...if someone doesn't do what you want..if they don't behave the way you want...it's OK to spank them.

Oh...and another question I like to ask parents who spank...

why is it OK for them to spank kids for doing wrong things but it's not OK to spank their coworkers...or their neighbors...or the nasty cashier....

If an adult is acting out and you want to "get his attention", do you slap, punch, or spank him?

No.

Why?

Because:

1. You'll probably be hit back
2. You'll find your ass in court


If slapping/spanking adults is not OK, then it's NOT OK for kids.


You don't teach kids to get the behavior they want from other people by spanking or threatening to spank them. Period.

[pipi_k]

121. Something else I wanted to add regarding the parents as terrorists theme...

Parents are the original terrorists. The very first terrorists a kid will meet in their lives.

If we want to take the definition of a "terrorist" as someone who attempts to control the behavior of another person(s) via the use of fear...

How many parents have used the threat of Santa Claus not bringing a kid Christmas presents if they're "bad"?

How many parents have brought their kids to a mall or department store to sit, screaming in terror, on the lap of Santa, just so they can get a photo and go, "Awww....isn't that cuuuuuute!"

Anyone ever have their mom tell them not to swallow watermelon seeds because they'll grow a watermelon in their stomach and it'll burst?

Or not to swallow gum because all the wads of gum will stay there and stick to each other and the kid will die?

How about..."Just wait till your father gets home!"

Oh, here's one involving guilt..."You should eat your broccoli/peas/fish sticks/whatever...think of all those poor starving children in (whatever country)"

No parent actively sets out to fuck up his kid's life...at least I hope not...but NO parent can sit there and say that this or that action...even if only done once...like a slap on the butt...will NOT have a negative impact on the kid at some point.

Any parent who uses fear to control his kid's behavior is, IMO, a terrorist.

[BoneDaddy]

74. I have spanked my kids maybe twice in their life

not hard and maybe one sharp slap. I am neither proud of it nor am I ashamed of it. I was frustrated and after one crack, they straightened their behavior. It was through their pants and not bareassed. I do find posts like these to be somewhat ridiculous though because they are presented in an either/or, black or white manner.

I have known kids whose parents have spanked them and they turned out just fine and I have known kids whose parents never spanked them and they are the most entitled spoiled brats who think their reality and needs trump everyone else's.

Of course I am not talking about assault, but a swift single slap to the backside is not abuse.

[AccessGranted]

82. Same Here But I Just Got Ripped A New One Because I Said It

Well, at least we're honest.

[pipi_k]

91. Well at least you're not proud of it

Again...

One swift slap to the behind...for what reason?

to get the kid's attention?

Is that how reasonable adults get the attention of others?


Not that I'm picking on you personally, understand.

I just don't get the logic of people using a slap to get someone's attention...or teach them a lesson...or whatever rationale people want to use for administering a slap to a child - whose reasoning skills aren't even developed yet, when they wouldn't even consider doing the same thing to another adult.

[BoneDaddy]

103. Do you have children?

My guess is no. I say that because if you did you would realize those very human moments when you behave imperfectly. In your perfect world you may be right, but the rest of us live in reality.

[TahitiNut]

92. Fear is a very powerful motivator.

It is also a very common motivator. It doesn't take a "9-11" every day to cause the behavior of entire populations to change. It's very effective ... if behavior is the only result desired. The question (imho) is whether that's the desired result to the exclusion or subordination of other objectives.

[BoneDaddy]

100. no argument from me there

as usuall TN you bring some balance to an often unbalanced situation, ty.

[shrike]

99. I have to wonder if people know no other way to discipline

other than spanking. So if they won't spank, they won't discipline at all.

I remember talking with a pre-school teacher who said that many parents of the kids she dealt with had no clue how to discipline, so they just threw up their hands.

BTW, I agree, a swift slap to the backside is not abuse.

[BoneDaddy]

104. I totally agree

I am not, by any stretch, arguing for assualt on children, but spanking is not abuse.

[ismnotwasm]

84. Yeah, well

When my kids were little, and I was a very young mom, I rarely spanked them. I also lacked consistently positive parenting skills. I remember If I ever spanked or hit them, it was ALWAYS out of frustration or anger, and NEVER out of a sense of guiding my children to better or safer behavior. So while in my case hitting was rare, when it happened it was abuse as far as I was concerned.

Yet I hear parents defend spanking, and it's usually a kind of a 'the kid was throwing a fit in a shopping mall just to get attention' defense. Or "What they need is a good swat on the butt"--- I do understand, but having been in that place, I understand just a little too much maybe. There are alternatives.

Short story. I have a friend, who had a very troubled life at one time losing custody of her children. The kids went through things no children should.

By the time she straightened out her life and got them back, one of her kids used to have melt downs from hell, and I mean frighteningly violent.
There is a technique, and I forget what you call it, but she would just hold this child, hold her for hours if that was what it took, no violence, no anger, held on to her physically until the child calmed and was able to interact with her environment. It's a much longer story, but it was one of the most incredible success stories I've ever seem. The child had seen too much violence in her life already. What more would have done to her, I don't want to imagine.

[pipi_k]

87. Exactly, and thank you for saying it...

I've already gone through the litany of what I took at the hands of my own parents, and which I, in my ignorance and youth, passed on to my own children.

My parents saw nothing wrong with what they did.

I spanked my kids as well...and when I think of it, I am physically SICK.


If I could go back and do it all over again, knowing what I know today, I would have done so many things differently. And one of those things being that I would never have raised a hand in anger against them.


I'm actually more hurt about the emotional harm I may have done my kids than what was done to me.

[ismnotwasm]

118. It's hard isn't it?

Hindsight. My children are adult now and we talk about things. They understand a lot, and have forgiven a lot, and what's wonderful, is they aren't passing along generational violence to their own children. Breaking the chain, as they say. I'm a step mom too, and thank goodness I had figured it out by the time I was given the special gift of getting to mother non-biological children. (And of course, biology didn't, and doesn't matter to us)
:hug:

[undergroundpanther]

134. my sisters didn't

spank, and their kids are amazing.
I myself chose to not EVER have kids because I never want to force a being to face the horrors of life here I faced and I don't think I could have handled it with the kind of stress I deal with.I don't hit,ever but when I used to watch my sisters kids,Sometimes I would have to hand the kids to another adult,and get my ass out and chill sometimes,take a time out.

Sometimes being a good parent is not being a parent.
Most people do not think of it that way.

[lame54]

89. We found that out with Lieberman

[Versailles]

90. My thoughts...and concerns.

I applaud the Obama's for their strength and intelligence for dealing with things this way.

I'm 31 and just got married on the Nov. 15th. My wife and I have been talking about kids and while we know it is a couple years away, it got me thinking about this very subject. And unfortunately it brought up some bad memories. It wasn't often, but my dad had a temper when I was growing up that would sometimes spill over into the realm of the physical punishment. I remember the first day of high school, my dad wanted to take pictures and I didn't. I just wanted to go to school and get it over with...I was terrified. After repeated refusals to get into the picture, I got into the car to wait for the ride to school. My dad reached through the window (which was down) and hauled me out of the window by my neck. This was just one incident, but one of the most prominent and terrifying. It has put a strain on our relationship as adults. It has never been directly discussed and I personally don't want the confrontation.

I know that I've developed some of my father's temper. I've worked EXTREMELY hard to eliminate that part to the point where, much to my wife's frustration, I shut down emotionally during an argument and become very logical and impassive. Add to this a borderline bipolar dissorder. My biggest concern is that with our kids in the future, I won't be able to control that. I worry about it constantly. I hate it when I lose control of my emotions and it is terrifying that I am that out of control. I am scared that I will unintentionally scar them emotionally the way my father has done to me.

[Kalyke]

93. At their ages, I agree.

However, as a mother of an extremely accident-prone 17-month-old, I have to resort to some butt pops to keep her off the furniture. She's already suffering a black eye right now from climbing on the bed and falling down on her face. Sigh. How do they do these things so fast? I was at work and her Dad was standing in the same room, tying his shoe!!

I can't reason with a 17-month-old and I would prefer my pops on her diapered butt to another black eye any ole day.

(For the record, it's just a shiner. She was taken, immediately, to the doctor for an exam. No fractures, thankfully, and her eye is fine - but, boy, she doesn't look pretty right now).

However, I also have a 9 year old. I haven't "spanked" him in so long, I don't remember, to be honest. He wasn't as much of a daredevil as his little sister, though.

[pipi_k]

96. I understand your frustration, but

the very fact that you admit to having to give her repeated "pops on her diapered butt" means that whatever "lesson" you're trying to administer to her isn't getting through...so why continue?

I mean, is it working? Obviously not. She continues to climb on the furniture and injure herself.


Maybe the time has come when you need to be creative and daredevil-proof your home somehow....close doors to rooms she should not be in...keep her in a confined space with a playpen or baby gate, etc.

[Joe Fields]

94. The Columbine shooters were never spanked.

Your thesis statement doesn't hold water.

In other words, there is nothing simplistic or cut and dried when it comes to parenting. Absolutist statements are absurd.

[TahitiNut]

105. Well, there ya go.

I know that we can rely on the Gospels of Harris and Klebold, no matter how extensively revised, as the pole-star of parenting. After all, everything we ever wanted to know and were afraid to ask was fully and accurately reported by the paradigms of honesty and virtue in the aftermath of Columbine. Ave.

[Joe Fields]

142. I just love the way you make your arguments.

They go something like this: Obama never spanks his children. His children are darling. Therefore spanking is evil.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

There are a million little things involved in parenting. You may want to take a look at them, because it is in those million minor details that good parenting derives from.

[noamnety]

117. Logic flaw, sorry.

I think we all get that parents who don't spank can still be ineffective or neglectful for other reasons.
We also all get that kids can have psychological problems that transcend parenting issues altogether.

A troubled or violent kid can be raised by parents who don't spank, yes. That doesn't disprove the OP.

[Joe Fields]

143. I don't have to disprove the OP. His logic is so flawed, that the

argument is ridiculous.

If you are to make a strong case against spanking a child, then a well thought out argument, backed by overwhelming evidence would be required. Otherwise, it's no argument, but rather an opinion, and an uninformed one, at that.

[noamnety]

146. It's sort of like an OP about smoking

There've been enough studies at this point that the only people who refuse to acknowledge a link between smoking and cancer are the willfully ignorant. Someone posting about smoking and cancer doesn't need to cite the evidence in every OP about it - it's common knowledge.

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9708/14/nfm.spanking/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-27-spanking_N.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/14/health/webmd/main1042550.shtml

[shrike]

97. A former acquaintance of mine told me about his two sons

One was so sensitive he'd have never spanked him. It would have destroyed the kid. All he'd have to do was look at him and say, "I'm very disappointed in you," and he'd go in his room and weep.

The second son was like a battle ax. One day he did put him over his knee to spank him (he used his hand.) The kid looked up at him after a few swats and said, "That didn't hurt."

[Sparkly]

102. That says a lot.

I was like the first kid. My parents didn't spank and rarely even raised their voices, but if they raised an eyebrow I was devastated.

My daughter, though, is like the second son you described. My tendency was to raise her as though she were like me, though, and I didn't spank her. I've often wondered whether I should have.

[BoneDaddy]

106. You just described my two children

one is like the former and the younger is the latter. Different things work with different kids and for those on here who are "all or none" or "parents who spank are terrorists" are either not parents or believe they are so fucking superior to use humans.

[Robb]

114. I was spanked sporadically, and I turned out awesome.

Not everything works for every child. Anyone who thinks so is an idiot, or is trying to sell you a book, or both. :shrug:

[hfojvt]

116. so they believe in torture?

There's a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where Spaceman Spiff has been captured and is going to be tortured by the aliens. "You don't scare me," he snarls. "I can take anything you can dish out." The alien says, "See if you can handle this - a calm discussion of rational principles" The last panel shows Calvin in the living room with his dad saying things like "When I was your age ..." and Calvin is standing there going "aaaaaauuugghh!!"

[Karenina]

119. A colleague had her nephew spend summers with her

to give him relief from his family environment. He was beaten at home. She talked.
One day I was there after some minor mischief.

Auntie: We need a sit down.
Nephew: Auntie, do we HAVE TO?
Auntie: You know what I'm talking about?
Nephew: Yeah. (By this time she had him trained well beyond the what-did-I-do phase). We were just... Damn Auntie, do we HAVE TO TALK? Can't you just HIT ME or something and get it over with?

He stomped off to the sitting room to compose his thoughts. I nearly imploded stifling my laughter. He LOVED visiting his Auntie.

[wtmusic]

120. Timeouts

applied early on and consistently eliminate the need to spank. Ever.

[Balbus]

122. I've heard of a little boy that got spanked exactly 1000 times...

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

[Fireweed247]

124. Spanking is barbaric

We should be more advanced at this point, but then we are devolving into an idiocracy...

There is always ALWAYS another way. We are not allowed to hit other adults if they aren't doing what we want, so why are we allowed to hit the most vulnerable in our society? Why don't we just hit the elderly for moving so slow while we are at it? Children are only being children and looking to adults to illustrate the way they should behave. I wonder what happens when you teach children to hit because you don't like their behavior??....

At our house we have a point system to earn video games. If you cause problems you lose points and eventually your game. If you do great things, you earn points and extra game time.

[Joe Fields]

145. Hyperbole is barbaric.

Maybe when you learn the difference between corporal punishment and real physical abuse, your input on this subject may have a little more merit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

128. Spanking is to becoming a fucked up person like unsafe sex is to getting AIDS.

The behavior doesn't always cause the outcome, but most of the occurrences of the outcome are from the behavior.

[20score]

132. I was a single father for ten years and never spanked my kids. But time and time again

someone would tell me I'm screwing up my kids because they need to be spanked. My children are all close to me and turned out great. (My youngest is 15 and on the right track.)

[tsuki]

135. There were times that I wished my Daddy had spanked. He was

one to discuss and examine. I usually ended up feeling an inch high because, in the end, I knew I was wrong.

[bliss_eternal]

137. I really like (and appreciate) this thread...

thanks Tahitinut. I didn't know this about the Obama family. It's great to see so many positive parenting stories on this thread. Especially after this:

Girl punched dad during spanking, 16 yo charged w/domestic battery:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4553102

:scared:

This is one of the things I dislike about places that have a strong religious based influence. Lots of "spare the rod, and spoil the child" type thinking that influences the way laws are enforced. I could be wrong, but I believe Florida is such a state.

[whatchamacallit]

144. Sometimes I forget how lucky I am to have the kid I have

In the 17 years he's blessed my life, I've never had to take a hand to him. Not once. The idea of physically punishing him is totally alien to me.

Edit: I thought I'd add that my old man, a marine corp officer, never spared the rod on my three brothers and I. Mater of fact, he'd do that thing where if you didn't rat out the sibling who committed the punishable offense, all four of us would get the switch.