I hate to admit this, but I bag my own groceries, use the self check-out

[madinmaryland]

when available, and return my cart to the cart corral or the front of the store.

The cashier has thanked me on multiple occasions for bagging my groceries.

:shrug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. I always wondered if all those do-it-yourself thingies only help to make more jobs disappear?

I don't know, but do they?

[azmouse]

3. My store still has someone to monitor the self-checkout area

and it still has checkers for when you don't want to do it yourself. I like the self-check for when I just have a few items and I don't want to wait in long lines.

But I've wondered that too. Are any jobs lost?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

17. I suspect all do-it-yourself (like voice answering phones and self checkouts)...

are for the purpose of eliminating jobs.

[crispini]

33. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

The voice answering phones, for example, *can* allow people who don't have the web a 24/7 access to basic information and free up customer service people from the boring repetitive questions so they can give customer service to the people who really do need it. On the other hand, they can certainly be used as a justification to get rid of some folks. :(

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. I remember way back when voice answering eliminated the job of a friend of mine....

It was with a large company and they had several telephone "operators." The minute they set up a VERY VERY expensive answering system, they eliminated all the operator jobs except 2.

[madinmaryland]

39. Interestingly, the elimation of operators, with high tech phone switching equipment

has given us the ability to debate these issues on teh internets and DU!!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

You mean on here? I don't know how writing one another is eliminating telephone answering operators

in corporations, government, and everywhere.

I think the Internet was designed by highly intelligent geeky folks who used the Internet to communicate with one another but even they call corporations, govt. and everywhere, and get no frikkin' answers anymore, just machines.

[madinmaryland]

48. The internet (www) was made a reality with the elimation of the old telephone switching

equipment, and going to fully automated switching. Without elimating the old AT&T operators and the old switching equipment there would be no DU or internets. Would you consider it worth saving those operators or having the jobs the internets have created?

:shrug:

[bean fidhleir]

57. You're assuming a false dichotomy. There's more than one way to implement a web-network. (nt)

[madinmaryland]

64. Huh? Please explain.

Thanks.

[bean fidhleir]

85. I'm stating a general-case rule: the number of things that can only be built in one way

is a small fraction of the whole things-that-can-be-built set.

You were trying to force a dichotomy, that without the elimination of switchboard jobs, the net could not have been built. It was a false dichotomy, unless you can offer persuasive evidence that designing and building a computer network requires the elimination of switchboard jobs.

[madinmaryland]

92. Do you understand high speed switching and the way data packets are

routed across communications networks. Suffice it to say, without this high speed switching there is absolutely no way the internet could have been developed using switchboard operators. One of the by-products of this, is obviously that switchboard operators were no longer needed. It would be nothing more than a few slow speed point-to-point connections serving a few geeks.

[bean fidhleir]

110. I suppose I do, if 30 years in engineering counts for anything

But do you understand that you're making a category error? You're presuming that "it can be done this way" implies that "it must be done this way". The other way round is correct, but what you're saying isn't. There is no reason that the development of high-speed hardware switches and routing algorithms must result in the elimination of switchboard operators. The two events are not causally connected! You're thinking like a corporation, not a human.

[madinmaryland]

113. My apologies. This being a message board, it's awfully hard to gauge the

background of people. My implication (whatever you want to call it) is that the technology has phased out the requirements for switchboard operators (i.e. the stuff from the 50's and earlier, where a person had to manually connect two lines together -- Can you explain how the internets would work under that scenario?). Obviously AT&T or whatever incarnation they are today, could keep switchboard operators, but for what use? Should corporations develop technologies that eliminate jobs? As I said and others have said in this thread and in others, is if the money saved by eliminating positions goes to lining the pockets of the wealthy owner, I am opposed to that. If, on the other hand, that money saved goes into moving those displaced workers into new positions and expanding the business, then I am for that.

I guess my one question (not really directed to you, but in general) is where do we draw the line between technology and losing jobs. And are the jobs created by the new technologies enough to offset those lost to the new technology.

[CreekDog]

87. "Mabel, post this message on the DU for me..."

[madinmaryland]

93. I sent an overnight messenger to Skinner so that my next post could be posted!

:rofl:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

58. So out of something very bad, came one thing. However, they kept the bad also. nt

[madinmaryland]

65. Can you explain? nt

[Hannah Bell]

123. how is the scanner you use significantly different from the one the clerk used?

what's the "new thing" being created (besides unemployment)?

[bigtree]

60. that's their purpose, yes

and the effect is felt in our communities. I've worked in a grocery store for 25 years.

[doc03]

95. Kroger's has one attendant working 4 self check-out

stations here. They getting maybe 4 people for the price of one when they are buzy.

[Poiuyt]

4. I always use the self check because the regular lines are always long

I figure it's best to save the regular checkout lines for people that need them or are afraid of the self check lines.

[madinmaryland]

6. That's why I do it. It's also quicker.

That said, there are very few self checkouts at the grocery stores here.

[davekriss]

31. The regular lines are always long...

...probably because they have less check out lanes and less checkers then store peek requires. They're forcing people to the self-check lines. Management prefers you use them. Jobs are lost. That is the idea.

They pay for the scanning/cash machines, which is much less then one year's salary for a checkout person. They staff one "watcher/helper" per cluster of machines (1 person watches 12 in the stores I shop), presto, far less people employed! Management transferred part of the work which employed paid labor to you, but they don't pay you for that same work (in the form of cheaper prices), instead they improve their bottom line. They profit off of the work transferred to you.

It is economically more "efficient" only because the downside of this increment of work and the (formerly paid) labor associated with it is now outside of economic measure, off the P&L, yet the corporate benefit is retained (they still charge you x dollars for your groceries but pay labor a little bit less, leaving a little more for management, profit, dividends, and, yes, checkout machine manufacturers -- that is the idea and intention behind these machines, nothing nefarious, just capitalism at work which is fundamentally exploitative and appropriative).

[bean fidhleir]

I certainly think they make jobs disappear - I won't use them!

I chat to the clerks at checkout and have mentioned that I won't use the self-serve because of its impact on jobs. Several have whispered thanks to me. They apparently see the same thing you and I do.

[madinmaryland]

18. What about the jobs created by the design, building, installation, and servicing

of the self check-out machines? What about those "skilled" jobs????

[bean fidhleir]

23. How long does it take to build a machine? A week? A day? An hour?

A cashier will be getting paid every day. But the people making the machine that replaces her will only be getting paid for an hour's work (or whatever).

[davekriss]

46. If you think the costs of...

...manufacture of the self-checkout machines (including labor to design, manufacture, install, and service) plus the cost for the "watchers" in the stores exceeds (and thus employs) more people compared to the old scenario, you're kidding yourself. If it were true, then the machines would be too expensive and store managers would reject them. The net-net is costs are reduced, that's why stores are putting them in. And the major cost -- the only cost to reduce with any significance -- is labor. That translates into a reduction of jobs.

I am not a Ted Kazinski (or whatever the Unabomber's name was), I am not against innovative achievements in productivity. What I have against this situation is that what they've primarily engineered is the transfer of labor from paid store employees (ringing up and bagging groceries), to unpaid labor (you and me), for the sole purpose of improving their bottom lines (or they wouldn't be doing it).

Now you may think what the hey and cheerily go along with the situation, but unless you are a shareholder of the grocery store you lose.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. I always use the checkers and have stopped going to the store that has self checkouts

In fact, I told one of the managers at a store that has self checkout, that I refuse to use the self checkout for that reason. He nodded repeatedly, then asked me to WRITE THE COMPANY and tell them exactly what I told him, but without telling the company that I approached him with the problem. :fistbump:

[bean fidhleir]

26. Now THAT is a humane manager! Good cess to him!

Which company is it, if you feel like saying.

I think I need to write the owners of Stop & Shop (though they're in Britain, so they mightn't care). That's the chain I usually trade at.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. It's Publix - and they have almost eliminated the self checkouts :)

Publix is pretty responsive, surprisingly.

The supermarket that keeps self checkouts going is Winn-Dixie.

I also think that it's time to bring back the service station attendants that used to pump gasoline, wipe windshields, and put antifreeze and water in the tanks. I do think there should be tipping there tho.

I remember when corporations started eliminating jobs to fill their pockets with more cash. What use are corporations if they want to run automized and strive for slavery rather than well-compensated employees?

I feel nothing towards corporations. They swallow up mom-and-pop businesses and spend MILLIONS trying to figure out how to pay employees less or dispense with them.

[madinmaryland]

41. You will be happy to give up your computer on all of the automation it has provided?

You might want to invest in a quill pen and ink instead.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. I answered you above in another post nt

[bean fidhleir]

53. I've never shopped at a Publix -or even seen one, I don't think- but Winn-Dixie has always been

annoying in many ways...or at least the ones in Texas were 30 years ago. Pity there aren't any Publixes around here.

I agree strongly with you about corporations, and that we should bring back respectable service jobs. Especially the kind that are good for people who need tiding over as well as for younger people and people who will always need that kind of job.

[BamaGirl]

76. The Winn Dixie I use

has removed the self check outs. I hope they do it in the rest of their stores.

[Cleita]

72. Yes. It's a way for the stores to save money on payroll by "hiring" the customer

without pay. I have never noticed that I got a discount doing that either. I only do the self checkout when I'm in a hurry and there are busy lines at the check outs.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

83. In a class I took, we read the text "The McDonaldization of America"

It was about automation and the increasing tendency to pass on tasks that used to be performed by workers to the consumer. Obviously, McDonald's was viewed as one of the vanguards of this trend. The author broke down just how many tasks, you, the customer do when you purchase a McDonald's meal, while paying for the privilege. Pretty interesting.

[treestar]

97. Yes, but then it creates computer jobs

Whoever designs, maintains those self checkout thingies wouldn't have had a job without the invention. Also the lady who records the robotic voice that tells you what to do would not have had a job without it.

It probably creates more jobs than it ends, and those jobs are higher paying jobs than a grocery check out clerk would be.

this kind of thinking hobbles the economy, it doesn't help.

[Hannah Bell]

103. In India.

[Hannah Bell]

106. "creates more jobs than it ends" doubt it. Design & code = 1 small team.

to create the model for 1 million stores.

Built in a Chinese factory with a labor force of < 1000 people.

[treestar]

118. That's a different issue though

The invention itself creates jobs. The factory being in the U.S. would create more jobs. That they outsource them is a problem, but the concept of the machine itself creates jobs. Just different ones.

[Hannah Bell]

122. even if you assume the machines are built here, it doesn't create "more"

jobs. they're the same machines the cashiers use, with some tweaks.

where are the "new" jobs?

the only "new" thing is you're doing the work that the cashier did, for free.

saving the owner 2 shifts of labor (e.g. 60K including bennies, fica, etc.), most of which will go into his pocket, not yours (in lower prices or whatever).

meanwhile, 2 less people in your town have jobs...& all the ramifications thereof.

[NashVegas]

133. I'm Not Convinced That's Such a Great Thing

In spite of the convenience to me, to be writing via computer right now...

The computer jobs created when the tech industry replaces jobs where humans interact with each other make our world a little less civil with each one.

The computer jobs created when the tech industry replaces human dexterity and abilities among people who get to keep their jobs, but use computers to compute numbers and automate actions, reduces human dexterity and abilities.

The next time you turn on a radio to a music station, consider that the pre-recorded voice you hear is someone who is now the equivalent of a McDonald's hamburger flipper, was a GOD thirty years ago. A god who landed their job because they had encyclopedic knowledge of music and competed head-to-head against other people with that knowledge and the ability to entertain. Their bosses were people who also had their music knowledge, and also had the ability to motivate creative people and get them working as a team. The hamburger flipper's boss? Never had to compete with their field abilities a single day in their lives. Just had to have the skillset to get ahead in the office.

This destruction of an entire industry came as a direct result of the "progress" that was promoted by the comp industry.

The fun thing is that, as soon as the corporate masters figured out how to eliminate those 60k-120k computer jobs, via outsourcing & visas, those jobs were tossed, too.

Sometimes I think the autism epidemic is evolution creating a generation of people who will be the ultimate rationalists, and push whatever buttons they're hired to without rebelling or being troubled by that little thing we call conscience.

[ozone_man]

111. Sure, the bagger is eliminated.

Whether it is the self checkout at the grocery store, Home Depot or self serve gas, it is elimination of service jobs. Arguably, there should be better jobs for people than bagging or pumping gas, so I have mixed feelings there. But for many high school kids, bagging is their first job, and that is important for a number of reasons, including establishing work ethic and exercise.

If we eliminate service jobs in some sectors, we have to create them in others. That is the biggest task for Obama. Not only to create jobs, but to create jobs with payback on the investment. Green energy, infrastructure replacement, public transportation, education, ... all have positive return on investment.

[madinmaryland]

115. I think you have had one of the best posts in this thread.

The goal is to creat jobs with a payback on the investment, both for the employee and the company. Service jobs provide payback only to the company.

[Regret My New Name]

112. I only use the self-check out if I have one or two things...

I usually prefer to get checked out by one of the cute clerks though...

[NashVegas]

131. From the Look of It, 4:1

Rarely do I see a grocery store keep every cashier lane open during peak hours. Holidays, and that's about it.

[fed_up_mother]

135. I'll bag my own groceries, but I always use a real human to check out!

Enough jobs are disappearing.

[CountAllVotes]

2. I see Costco has this now

another batch of jobs down the drain ... :(

I guess it is faster but I really need the help with my groceries, etc., especially at a store like Costco!

:kick:

[Sydnie]

5. I bag my own too

but mainly because they don't teach the baggers how to bag any more. They give them the bare bones basics (don't put cleaning things with food) but they don't show them how to properly bag anything anymore. I got tired of heavy things being bagged with my delicate fruits (a quarter pint of blackberries is too expense to be crushed with canned beans for example) so I bag my own now. They seem to only care about the number of products they can shove into one bag rather than the condition of the groceries once they leave the check out stand.

The advantage for me is, I can bag things by priority and by category. Priority by packing things in bags that need to go into the house first (frozen, refrigerated for example) and by category to make it easier to put away in the same cabinets once they get into the house.

It's time and money saving for me to do that.

[bean fidhleir]

38. I also bag my own - but that's from my experience when I could trade at a co-op

Stop & SHop around here for a long while was hiring people with developmental handicaps to bag groceries, and it was nice chatting to them. Now there's only a few left, and it takes a fair amount of interaction to pick up on their limitations. Maybe the others didn't work fast enough to suit the bosses. Or maybe to suit the more soulless customers: I watched one woman give my favorite bagger, a young woman with Down syndrome who was very cheerful and proud of her job, a hard time because she put something fragile in before something heavy. I wanted to say something scathing to the idiot, but she was away before I could get my wits together.

(When I bag my own, I try to make it a point to tell the bagger I'm giving them a small breather :) )

[CrispyQ]

82. I actually prefer the self checkouts.

"...they don't teach the baggers how to bag any more." We bag our own too, for this very reason.

The checkers also lack training. They no longer count out your change. I don't expect the coin to be counted, but at the very least I would like them to fan out the bills so I can see what's there instead of handing it to me in a wad. Many times, before I've even counted it, they've started the next order & the next customer is pushing me out of the way. I've had checkers send the next customer's items down the belt before all my items are bagged! Also, in my area, 'thank you' has been replaced with 'have a good one,' if you even get that.

I was a checker for many, many years & I know it can be a trying job. You're on your feet all day & lots of customers are PO'd about the price of groceries. But, as a customer, it's not unreasonable to expect a checker to count out change, say thank you & not rush me at the end of an order.

If they want to keep their jobs, they should do it right & treat me like a valued customer, not an annoyance.

[dysfunctional press]

125. one reason i like to bag myself is that i can double-bag everything to get more of the plastic bags

those things have so many great uses and it's nice to have them on hand.

[Misskittycat]

7. I always use the cashier. I think I'm saving jobs, though I might be mistaken.

[madinmaryland]

14. Look at it this way. There will be cashier jobs lost, but jobs will be created

designing, building, installing, and servicing the self-checkout machines. Assuming that they are American made and built.

[bean fidhleir]

19. Look at it this way: a cashier gets paid every week. A self-serve gets bought only once

Markets wouldn't be buying them unless they were saving money.

[crispini]

34. They do have to be maintained

and upgraded, and serviced. There are jobs there, but there are fewer, and a different class of job.

[bean fidhleir]

43. And only a fraction of a person per machine. If the preventive maintenance

schedule is once a month for an hour (I don't think it's anywhere near that), then how many cashier jobs does maintenance represent? Some fraction of 1 person. Big savings for the company.

[madinmaryland]

49. So your point is that we are to keep jobs that are "inefficient" in order to keep

low paying and often dead-end jobs?

[bean fidhleir]

55. Yes.

[bigtree]

56. I resent the 'efficiency' excuse

Would you rather there were no cashiers at all? Sorry to scold, but do you realize how much we're hurting for hours here? Most of those positions are part-time and filled with folks who desperately need full-time work.

[madinmaryland]

62. A couple of things. First, I never indicated getting rid of all cashiers. If self-serve

machines can be added for the clients that want them, then great. Second, and much larger, is why we are fixated on keeping cashiers jobs rather than trying to create full-time and permanent jobs that are careers. We seem more interested in shipping those overseas rather than keeping those "middle class" jobs here.

BTW, we all are hurting.

[bigtree]

70. I'm just speaking from experience.

I don't think there are as many jobs in my community from making self-serve registers.

[Art_from_Ark]

128. Not everyone wants a full-time, permanent job as a career

Depending on where they are in their lives, some people would prefer to have a part-time, non-skilled job for at least a short time, like high school students, college students, some housewives, and some semi-retired people.

[Hannah Bell]

105. "Efficient"? Someone's still doing the work - you. But you don't get paid for it, not in cash,

not in lower prices.

Yes, it's more "efficient" to get free labor.

[madinmaryland]

109. Huh?

:wtf: are you talking about. If it takes 15 minutes to get through the regular check-out lane vs. 5 minutes to go through the self check-out lane, then yes it is more efficient for both me and the store. It is faster to go through the self check out lane (at least in my personal experience, I can say that).

You must be pissed that I also rake my own leaves and clean my own damn house! Sorry I don't hire people to do every single thing in my life. Sheesh.

[Hannah Bell]

121. I'm not sure why the snark is needed. You're doing exactly what

the checker did, but for free. That's the efficiency.

If you make 6 shopping trips/week, you "save" an hour/wk, or 52 hrs/yr.

The grocery chain "saves" 2 full-time positions (e.g. 60K/yr in wages & benefits) at each store.

[davidinalameda]

86. but aren't those better jobs?

I'm guessing that a maintenance person gets paid a lot more than a cashier

[bean fidhleir]

89. You're being disingenuous.

[doc03]

99. That self-serve machine doesn't take lunch breaks,

doesn't get tired, don't need no cigarette break, health insurance, Workman's compensation, unemployment compensation, social security, doesn't get pregnant and doesn't bitch and whine all the time. It's a Republican's dream employee. :sarcasm:

[izquierdista]

25. American made and built?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Surely, you are joking! When has anything "made in America" NOT been a candidate to be shipped overseas to "save on costs". If there is a cost savings to be made by cutting American jobs out of the loop, you can bet it's being taken. Oh well, it will make for a stable middle class in the rest of the world, while the only jobs left for Americans will be to sign up with the military.

[madinmaryland]

37. That really is the crux of the matter. Quality jobs are being sent overseas,

leaving only service jobs in this country. I would much prefer we have design/build type jobs than cashier type jobs.

[petronius]

8. I tried to use the self-check once: "Please rescan... Please rescan... Please rescan...

Please rescan... Please rescan... Please rescan... Please rescan... Please rescan... Please rescan..." :eyes: Maybe they work better now - my experience was a long time ago.

I suspect that the self-checkers do reduce jobs (one person to monitor ~5 stations rather than 5 checkers at five stands), but I wonder if they're actually a cost savings when you factor in customer frustration and an increased theft potential...

[madinmaryland]

9. I had that problem 10 years ago, but today, that is a very rare occurance.

[flvegan]

10. You might as well bring a gun and execute a couple cashiers.

:sarcasm:

[madinmaryland]

11. Just remember, guns don't kill cashiers....

cue the gun gang!

:rofl:

[doc03]

100. How you going to hold up a self-serve machine they ain't

afraid of no gun?

[Gormy Cuss]

12. No need for the gun. Use the shopping carts. n/t

[Stuff213]

13. I get so frustrated in the self check out line. Always have something that won't scan.

[madinmaryland]

15. Welcome to DU!!!

[Stuff213]

16. Thanks. And Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

[Midlodemocrat]

20. I usually bag my own as well, unless I have a ton of groceries.

If it takes me forever to put them up on the belt, I don't feel as though I'm helping by stopping to bag. I bring my own bags, too and usually have to intercede with them because they almost always want me to use their plastic bags.

[flvegan]

28. You might as well offshore grocery bagging to India.

:eyes:

[doc03]

101. Well when I go to the store I always bring a shopping

cart in from the parking lot. I use the self-check-out, bag my groceries in my own bags and bring the shopping cart back inside the store. If everyone was like me Kroger could cut their work force in half and our grocery prices would go down. :hide:

[tabatha]

21. I always bag my own bags - not because I think the baggers are deficient.

I do it because I can't just stand there watching someone else do it - and it speeds up the line.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. You think that's bad? We recycle and haul the stuff to the recyclers.

Thus depriving the garbage collectors of jobs. We also put on sweaters rather than crank up the heater, thus depriving power plant workers of jobs.

We're destroying 'Murka!

[azmouse]

27. I'm surprised reading this thread at how many stores don't bag groceries

for their customers.

It's done by the checker or a helper automatically here. I'm in the Phoenix area.
There never is a question of having to do it yourself.

[crispini]

36. I quite often bag my own.

Especially when I bring my own bags, which seems to throw them for a loop, unless its Whole Foods, who offer 5 cents off a bag when you BYO. Wish more stores would do that.

[azmouse]

51. Our stores here are encouraging people to use our own bags.

Most, if not all, give 5 cents off for each bag we bring.
Phoenix wants to eliminate the plastic bags within the next few years.

[MineralMan]

29. Where I shop,

At the closest Cub foods in Minnesota, they seem to hire the cashiers on the sole criterion that they be slow and grumpy. I've yet to see one of them smile or even say hello when I go through the line. The store doesn't bag groceries, but that's fine with me.

Well, they put in four self-check stations in the store and I switched instantly, just to avoid dealing with the sour-faced people at the regular counters.

I was doing that the other day, when a regular cashier, who had been rude to me several times in the past, was working the line next to the self-checkouts. She made a comment to me about the self-check stations taking away jobs.

I replied that her attitude on previous occasions was the very reason I was checking myself out. She was the one who was chatting up her sister while I waited for her to do her job once. She took her sister's baby from the sister during this conversation. The infant promptly barfed on her. She gave the kid back, then started handling my groceries after wiping baby vomit off her hands onto her pants. When I commented on the unsanitary nature of handling food with vomit on your hands, she sneered at me. I walked away from the line and out of the store.

So, screw her job, I say. When the store hires some friendly, personable cashiers, I'll switch back. That's not in the cards, though, I think. So, I'll keep checking out for myself.

[bean fidhleir]

61. I've found that whenever a clerk seems grouchy, there's nearly always something going on

in their life that's not good, and that a quiet recognition ("Bad day? You seem gloomy") that they're a human being, not an automaton does a lot. You could try it, you never know.

[MineralMan]

66. I've tried...

I am one of those people who like talking to cashiers and the like. I'm friendly, non-intrusive, and always smiling. In this particular store, I've tried and tried, but to no avail.

At another market I go to, the staff is friendly. Just not at this one.

[Robb]

30. Screw that.

I jump behind the counter and cut my own freakin' meat.

Also, I shell my own shrimp. By the she shore. :D

[mondo joe]

40. I use self check out for smaller quantities, because it's faster. In the regular line, I'll

bag my own if there's no one to do it but the person ringing up the items. Most often there's a person doing bagging.

[Giant Robot]

42. I bag my own usually

I guess I am a bad citizen because I try to choose the fastest option. I consider grocery shopping a chore and don't like to spend long amounts of time doing it.

However I do use cashiers over self chech out. It has been my exerience that cashiers are always faster, given equal numbers of people in line. Heck, even if there are more people in line with the cashier I will still go there.

I do try to return my cart to the proper place but I only view that as being polite.

[pampango]

45. I wonder if some wish that tractors and bulldozers hadn't been invented,

so that masses of laborers could do what those heavy machines do. Likewise, email may cost postal jobs, calculators might have reduced the need for many accountants, electricity the need for candle makers and live musicians.

All these things are just fancier tools like the first sharpened rock that made cutting things easier. I suppose that there have been those throughout history who have looked at each new invention or device as a way to hurt people. Ahh, for the good ol' days when most Americans were subsistence farmers and used horse drawn plows to till the fields. When 98% of us were farmers, I bet there was little unemployment, though life might have been a little rougher.

[bean fidhleir]

67. I just don't think it's a good idea to enrich the wealthy few at the expense of the working many

What good do you see in doing that?

[pampango]

75. I see plenty of good in having tractors and bulldozers. I really don't want

farming and building techniques to go back a couple of hundred years in time, even though I sure some people were enriched in the tractor and bulldozer industries.

What good do you see in going back to the days when people didn't have tools to work with, just so we can maximize the number of laborers employed?

[bean fidhleir]

81. I think there ought to be a respectable living-wage job available for everyone who wants one

Nobody should ever be out of work if they don't want to be.

[Hannah Bell]

107. straw man.

[gollygee]

47. I've had problems with the checkers not liking my cloth bags

so I more often self-check and bag my own to avoid that hassle.

[Vinca]

50. I often bag my own groceries, but I'm too technically challenged

to use the self checkout.

[tularetom]

52. I tried it once but I was buying beer and wine

And the frigging machine refused to compete my purchase until a manager came over and insured it that I was 21. This took 15 minutes while the lines at the cashier stands just kept moving right along. So I won't use them unless I have only a few items and no alcohol.

On the other hand my wife refuses to use them at all. She's a firm believer in the "putting people out of work" school of thought. She doesn't bag her groceries but she brings her own homemade cloth bags to save paper or plastic.

[bigtree]

54. Self-checkout costs cashiers hours and jobs

[zorahopkins]

69. ATM's, Too

Don't use ATM's!

They put people out of work!

And we should all DEMAND the elimination of self-service elevators! Think of all the elevator operators that are out of work!

And bring back telephone operators! No "direct dial" local or long distance calls!!!

[bigtree]

71. False dichotomies

. . . but have at it. I suspect your job isn't on the line.

[zorahopkins]

73. Oh, Please

Please spare me.

[bigtree]

78. no

[madinmaryland]

91. Color me stupid, but the definition of dichotomy is

"division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups: a dichotomy between thought and action. " Where is that being made.

From what I can tell, the arguments list above are perfect examples. The argument you seem to be making is that so what if a bank teller loses her/his job because of the ATM, but it is important to keep the cashier's job?

Please explain this to me.

Thx.

[bigtree]

119. you know how I feel about this

I admit they're convenient. Good for you, that you're taking advantage of all of that. I'm not asking you to defend your own habits.

I really don't know what point you're trying to make here. If it's a statement of your independence, then good for you. But, there are consequences to everything we do. It shouldn't offend you to hear that these self-checkouts have affected jobs and wages. A someone whose job and wages have been directly affected by this opportunistic automation, I'm conscious of, and sympathetic to those impacts every time I choose to go through the regular checkout.

They have reduced the need for several cashiers and affected hours as well as jobs where I work. I don't believe those are outweighed by the jobs created in the self-serve manufacturing industry, at least not in my community where folks have depended on these jobs.

But, like I said, good for you that they've made your own life easier and that you've managed that level of independence and self-reliance.

[madinmaryland]

120. On a slightly off subject, if your profile is up to date,

we live in the same town. Can I assume you work at one of the groceries in our town? As you know, there really isn't any opportunity in Columbia to use self-serve machines, unless Harris Teeter has added them (I can't afford them). Aren't most of the grocery stores in Columbia unionized? Are the unions fighting to keep the cashier jobs or have new jobs created to replaced the jobs lost to the self-serve machines?

[bigtree]

134. Giant

United Food and Commercial Workers Union . . .

Old fight, lost.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

59. Where I live, most people help pack their own groceries unless the store is slow and

cashiers from other checkout lines act as baggers. To me this seems to be a non-issue.

As to the carts, I usually return them to in front of the store or the outdoor cart rack. No biggie.

[MineralMan]

63. Here's a cool self checkout prank...

I'm a big, tall, old white guy, and live in Minnesota. So, when I go to the self-checkout at the supermarket, I always press the Spanish button, so the machine gives voice prompts and prices in Spanish.

You oughta see the looks I get from the other shoppers. In many cases, they seem offended that Spanish is even available. One guy actually said to me, "Why the hell are you listening to that Spanish crap?"

I just told him that it helped me with keeping my Spanish comprehension up. He just shook his head.

The best part, though, is when a clerk is needed for some reason. Even though they clear the same things on the same screen all the time, they're just totally befuddled if the screen prompt is in Spanish. I have to translate it for them, and, even then, they're confused.

[zorahopkins]

68. Que Bueno!

What a hoot!

I bet those rubes out there in Minnesota hate you!

[AlCzervik]

74. i don't for 2 reasons, i have self check out and i always have cigarettes or something that

"Needs a key". i don't ever mind bagging my own stuff because i like to get out in with as few bags as possible therefor avoiding taking the cart out to the parking lot.

[itsrobert]

77. I think stores should charge by the pound

You roll your cart onto a scale and you pay via automated machine per weight. Quick and out you go. No need for bagging, just throw all you crap in truck. Carts should have a cord on them and they automatically return to the store just like those vacuum cleaner cords return to the vacuum when you give a quick tug.

[Zavulon]

79. I never do.

I am not a violent guy, but I almost put my fist through one of those fucking self-checkout machines recently. But I digress.

I will never bag my own groceries or return a cart unless I get a substantial discount for doing so.

[stillcool]

80. My first job was at a grocery store...

..if there is a bagger I don't interfere, but if it's just the check-out person I bag. The self check-out electronic voice is very irritating to me. She and I often have problems so I try to avoid her.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

84. Yet the shittiest and most horrid jobs are still done by humans.

I used to work in semi-conductor manufacturing. Over the years I watched as more and more tasks by humans were taken over by robots. At this point, the typical computer chip plant has practically no humans on the floor. It's all robots with a few technicians and engineers monitoring everything from a control room. We're talking wafers with microscopic circuits that can be ruined with the slightest glitch. Yet, the robots pull it off mostly without a problem. At the same time, no one has figured out how to make a machine to pick lettuce. Or maybe they could but it's so much cheaper to pay desperate people slave wages to do it.

[bean fidhleir]

90. Most of that is a domain issue: chip fab is a perfect domain for robots

because the requirements of doing a small number of well-defined tasks over and over endlessly at a scale too small for human muscular control is perfect for robotics.

Picking lettuce is a less-well-defined task. Which nevertheless could be automated, but more easily in a hydroponics farm than a dirt one. But most lettuce farms are dirt farms, still.

[Bluebear]

88. I will not use anything that costs jobs (self check-outs)

[zorahopkins]

94. Sooooo, You Don't Use

So, you do not use:

1. ATM's (cost the jobs of tellers)
2. Push-Button Elevators (cost the jobs of elevator operators)
3. Self-service gas stations (cost the jobs of service station people)
4. Operator-free phone calls (I assume you always dial "O", and have the friendly person on the other end of the phone place your calls for you.)

[Bluebear]

96. ATM's do not cost the jobs of tellers. There is no teller at the ball park. for instance.

I realize you're trying to be cute here, but I stand by my post. If there is a live person or a "self-check-in" stationed at the same place, I will patronize the worker, so sue me.

[zorahopkins]

98. ATMS Allow THE MAN To...

ATM's simply allow THE MAN to not employ someone.

If people did not use ATM's at ball parks, but demanded a way to get quick cash, then THE MAN would be FORCED to hire tellers at the ball park.

It's that simple.

DEMAND tellers!

Oh, and DEMAND elevators with operators (instead of push-buttons), too.

We need all the jobs we can get!

[depakid]

102. In Australia, you have to put a dollar coin into a slot to get a trolley (shopping cart)

in the larger markets.

When you put it back in the row, you get your dollar back. Local groups also sell tokens for charity.

Makes a lot of sense, and I'm surprised the idea hasn't caught on in the states.

[Michigan-Arizona]

129. Aldi's grocery store had them

This was many year's ago & it was maybe 50 cent's to use a cart, which of course you got back when you returned it.

[bklyncowgirl]

130. They still do. It costs a quarter. You also have to pay for bags or bring your own.

Aldi reciprocates with very low prices and looking at their posted help wanted ads they pay pretty decently.

[dynasaw]

104. I bag my own and self check out

because checkers can be insufferably rude in recent times. I refer mainly to the habit checkers and baggers have of talking to each other as if the customer were invisible. I don't want to hear the gossip between checker and bagger which at times this includes details of their most intimate activities or nasty jabs at someone. Obviously what was once known as professional behavior is no longer required. It is also irritating to stand in line waiting while some chatty type decides to have a long conversation with the checker while the line behind grows behind her/him as s/he natters away obliviously.

I am also, what one Duer called "a chess puffer" because I return my carts to the front of the store: There is nothing more irksome than stray carts in parking slots, carts running wild across parking lots, and carts filled with someone else's garbage. Does it take away jobs? I guess most of those who take this position don't use ATM or online banking? It's regrettable, but automation has been a fact of life for over a decade. Not returning carts is a form of littering.

[doc03]

108. There is a small IGA store just up the road from me

they have real cashiers and people that bag your groceries and carry them out to your car. I think that store has about as many employees as the big Kroger store and other than what Kroger has on special their prices are much lower. These chains that are eliminating all the cashier jobs certainly don't pass any savings to the customer. The Kroger store has a Union but they have 3 or 4 different pay scales depending on when you started working there.

[Joanne98]

114. LOSER

[madinmaryland]

116. Nice post, Joanne.

:rofl:

[Joanne98]

117. Thanks!

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

124. i absolutely LOVE the self-checkout.

especially when there's only one cashier open, with a line 10-people deep waiting to check out. i liked it even better when the grocery store had biometrics- because you didn't even need to have your wallet with you to pay, and if you bought liquor at the self-checkout, you didn't have to wait for the clerk to come over and verify your age.

[sohndrsmith]

126. Is that unusual?

That's the only way I ever do it, unless forced to do otherwise...

I can't think of a reason to do everything you mentioned differently - is there one?
Now I'm curious as all get out... Is there something wrong with it? Am I missing something?

[Bucky]

127. You're creating jobs for computer repairmen whenever you use the self check out

I usually kick them, jam up their paper receipts, or scratch the glass surfaces, just to help the job market grow.

[theboss]

132. I am in favor of anything that limits my human interaction

If someone could invite a robot wife, I would be happy.

My wife possibly less so.

[Ilsa]

136. Me too. I bring my own bags that i recycled from

curtains, and check myself out. And I get pissy over shoppers not keeping the cart corral tidy. Carts end up in parking spaces and ramming cars when people don't do their part.