On this "Buy American" purism

[MadHound]

We've been seeing posts around here lately demanding that we buy American cars, buy American clothes, buy everything American(no, I won't get into terrorist foreign shopping carts).

The thing is about these posters is that they're being both judgmental and hypocritical.

Judgmental because they are blinding screaming buy American or else you're not patriotic, progressive, what have you. Well, the fact of the matter is that they haven't walked a mile in your shoes or mine. Frankly, I don't have the money to burn on buying a crappy domestic automobile that's going to last five to seven years, costing tons in repairs, only to go belly up at 70,000 miles. My money is scarce enough that I need my cars to be easy on gas, be reliable, and to last 150,000+. For me, and most others, this has meant that foreign cars have been the best bargain for my money. Every time it's come around to buying a new car, I've looked at the domestic market, and cringed at what I've seen, costly, repair prone vehicles that get worse gas mileage and are prone to die at a young age. I'll do the same the next time it's time to buy a new car, and if the domestic is a better value, then I'll buy it. But until then, it is insulting for these people to insinuate that I'm not a patriot or liberal because I'm looking out for my best interests. In fact that is what the core of capitalism is, the buyer making a rational decision on the known facts, and then getting the best bargain based on those facts. It is not up to the American consumer to buy domestic cars, waste their money on shoddy products out of blind loyalty, that's not how capitalism in this country works. Rather, that is how the Soviet system of a controlled economy worked, and we all saw how well that worked out. If the domestic car manufacturers want us to buy their cars, then they need to build a better product, and frankly if I worked for the car industry, I would be demanding, through my union, that they do exactly this since it is my livelihood on the line.

Yet do we here these workers screaming at the car companies to force them to build better cars? Do we hear the UAW demanding that Ford, Chevy and Chrysler build a better product because the livelihood of their members are on the line? No, what we hear are these workers demanding that we the consumer waste our money on crappy cars instead:puke: Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

These same people are also being hypocritical, demanding that we buy American. Let me ask them, is everything that they buy American? Their clothes, their electronics, the computers that they post with, the very food that they eat (especially produce this time of year), is all of this a product of America? Somehow I doubt it, yet they have the audacity to berate those of us with a foreign made car while spending tens of thousands of dollars on their own foreign made goods. There's a word for these people.

Hypocrites, each and every one of them.

So don't let these people try to bully you around on this subject. Just ask them where their food comes from, their bananas, their strawberries, their very computers that they post on. I guarantee you, you will be met with silence.

I don't care wear people spend their money, nor what they spend it on. I exercise that liberal value of tolerance and understanding. I understand that money is tight for people, especially during this time of year, and exercise that patriotic sentiment of compassion. But most of all, I understand that thoroughly American concept of capitalism, of getting the best bargain for your money. Thus, I'm proud to be a liberal, progressive, patriotic American, and to hell with those who try to say otherwise.

[spoony]

1. The tired old "domestics are crap" myth doesn't help your cause any.

I'm getting tired of people acting like every US car is both extravagantly expensive and total shit. It just makes you sound like you've been in a coma for the last ten years.

And please tell me who here said EVERYTHING you buy must be made in the US? We all know that isn't possible, but at the same time don't act like it's impossible to support American companies. People should buy American when it's feasible. It often is. Is that idea really so bloody horrible to you?

[Deja Q]

4. Well, it helps the cause of people who don't think like he does.

Which is an awful lot of people... even if he has a point about "Made in ___". Your point is still bigger.

[MadHound]

9. I've been buying cars for nearly thirty years

I've been driving cars for over thirty five years. I've collected old cars for over a quarter century. I work on cars inside and out. I know the strengths and weaknesses of most cars over the past seventy years, I know where I speak.

The American made autos started really declining in quality during the seventies, and continued into throughout the eighties. The nineties saw quality pick up somewhat, but still no match for most foreign made cars. The 2000's have seen greater progress in this area, to the point where there are a fair number of individual models that are comparable with foreign makes. However the domestic auto industry still has a tendency to scrimp and save on their products, that leads to either a shortened car life, or worse yet, death(witness the exploding Crown Vics, reminiscent of exploding Pintos, both made by Ford).

Overall, over the past thirty-thirty, most auto experts and critics will tell you, perhaps in not so many words, that domestics are indeed crap. Like I said earlier, the next time I need to buy a new car, I will give domestics a good look, with an unbiased eye. But if they don't measure up to a foreign label in terms of long term cost, reliability, fuel economy, and durability, I won't go with them, I don't have money to waste.

As far as calling out individual posters, c'mon, you know that's against the rules. Just peruse some of the threads that have been around the past week or so, you'll see who they are.

And know, the idea of buying American, when it's feasible, isn't a horrible idea to me. What's horrible is getting scolded for not buying American, when it is my hard earned money on the line.

[ProfessorGAC]

68. Anecdotal Nonsense Hound

Your sample set if far too small to make such sweeping statements.

I don't work on my cars, but i've been buying them longer than you and i've never had a bad car made by a U.S. car company.

So, anecdotal evidence doesn't take either one of us too far, does it?
The Professor

[AwakeAtLast]

105. ",,,i've never had a bad car made by a U.S. car company."

Please consider yourself fortunate. I've had two and they will not get a third out of me.

[ProfessorGAC]

130. You're Making My Point

Thanks. You didn't mean to but you're proving what i just said.
GAC

[SOS]

179. The 10 best cars of 2008, based on testing, not anecdotes:

Green car Toyota Prius
Small sedan Hyundai Elantra SE
Family sedan Honda Accord
Upscale sedan Infiniti G35
Luxury sedan Lexus LS 460L
Fun to drive Mazda MX-5 Miata
Small SUV Toyota RAV4
Midsized SUV Hyundai Santa Fe
Minivan Toyota Sienna
Pickup truck Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Crew Cab

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2007/04/top-picks-for-2007-4-07/overview/0704_top-picks-2007.htm

[Fearless]

183. And the most recalled: Toyota.

http://forums.trucktrend.com/70/6285978/toyota-lexus/toyota-trucks-ahead-in-2007-recalls/index.html

[ProfessorGAC]

187. Thanks

There is a truism.

Liars can lie with numbers, but the numbers don't lie. When everyone is put into the proper context, funny how preconceived notions evaporate, ain't it?
GAC

[Fearless]

188. Of course

:fistbump:

[Nederland]

199. Yes, context is everything

To wit, it is important to note two facts:

1) A big reason Toyota recalls a lot of cars is that they sell a lot of cars.
2) Recalls do not measure how reliable a car is, they measure a car company's willingness to admit their flaws. A car company that never admits to any flaws will have no recalls, but that would tell you nothing about their product's quality.

[SOS]

193. Most recalled cars 2007:

1. Volkswagen New Beetle
2. Toyota Sequoia
3. Jeep Liberty
4. Nissan Altima
5. Hyundai Tucson
6. Dodge Nitro, Jeep Wrangler
7. Suzuki Forenza, Reno
8. Volkswagen Passat, Passat Wagon
9. Chrysler Sebring, 300, Dodge Caliber, Magnum, Charger, Nitro, Jeep Compass, Liberty, Commander, Grand Cherokee, Wrangler
10. Infiniti G35 Coupe
11. Chevrolet Aveo
12. Nissan Versa
13. GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook
14. Ford Expedition

Edit to add 2006 most recalled cars:

Dodge Ram
Dodge Durango
Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra
Honda Civic
Hyundai Sonata
Jeep Liberty
Land Rover LR3
Land Rover Range Rover

Of the 22 most recalled cars, in 2006 and 2007, only one is a Toyota.

[Fearless]

195. You'll want to actually read the link then.

[SOS]

198. Your link refers principally to the Toyota Sequoia

Which you will note is #2 on the posted 2007 list.
But, again, of the 22 most-recalled cars of 2006 and 2007 only one Toyota (the Sequoia) is on the list.

[ProfessorGAC]

185. So?

Try to make a point in your next post.

[SOS]

192. The point should be fairly clear

Post # 9 by MadHound explained their trouble with US made cars over the years.
You said that "anecdotal evidence doesn't take either one of us too far".
I then posted the 10 best cars as rated by Consumer Reports, 9 of which are imports.
Non-anecdotal evidence is provided to you in regard to automobile quality.
Hopefully this has explained the point I was trying to make.

Here is the CR criteria for assessing auto quality:

Our Top Picks are the most well-rounded models in their categories. Each must meet these stringent requirements:

Road tests: Each Top Pick scores at or near the top of its category among more than 260 vehicles we’ve recently tested at our Auto Test Center.

Reliability: Each has an average or better predicted-reliability rating, based on the problems subscribers reported on almost 1.3 million vehicles in our Annual Car Reliability Survey.

Safety: Top Picks have performed adequately in overall safety if tested by the government or the insurance industry. Starting this year, they also must provide a critical safety feature, electronic stability control (ESC), either as standard equipment or as a readily available option.

[Vinnie From Indy]

106. Your post is mildly amusing in that it paints with the same broad brush that you

criticize in your, as yet, unsupported idea that all American made vehicles are crap.

The fact is that American car companies do a great job of making some vehicles. Light and heavy trucks made in America are some of the best vehicles out there. Granted, they make zero sense to buy with increasing fuel costs if you do not absolutely need one, but they are well built nonetheless.

I personally think peer pressure works. I also think that Americans should be scolded for living, in general, a lifestyle that is unsustainable, selfish and wasteful.

In the end, it is your money and posting a post that scolds the scolders is kinda funny to me. But, then again, I've had a few cocktails! Cheers!

[JerseygirlCT]

117. I'm not a mechanic, but having bought cars through the period you

talk about, I understand why I have become extremely hesitant to even look at a car from one of the "big 3". Too many bad experiences, and too many friends, relatives, etc. relating the same. Crappy cars made in the 70s and 80s. And it's not up to me to overcome that, IMO. I'm not ready to gamble thousands that those deficits have finally been overcome, when I can already be reasonably sure that another car is already tested and performing well.

And yes to the scolding. So unneccessary.

[Warpy]

11. I tested domestic cars 2 years ago

when I finally retired my old truck. They were fine.

What caused me to buy foreign was that the foreign car came with standard items that were extras on the domestic car and it had better thought out cargo space.

These aren't the same shitty cars they made in the 70s when the fools thought "economical" meant "cheap and shoddy." They're making good ones now, although the main American component of many of them is the name on the grille. No American car is 100% American these days.

[Atman]

13. No one bought the 17,000,000 cars Detroit built last year.

They were all so crappy, no one wanted them. All 17,000,000 of them. Because they were made by lazy union workers making $78, probably.

Thanks for your post. The ignorance re: this "American Car" thing is astounding. The op has bought into every bit of anti-Detroit/anti-union/anti-worker CRAP the MSM is helping promote for their GOP corporate donors. It's sickening.

.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. That was me. I told him that.

I told him to "Be an idiot, buy everything in the US... particularly one of our shitty cars which are universally equipped to spontaneously explode at mile 70,001."

I guess I should be flattered that he took half my advice.

[Chulanowa]

55. They're not crap. After all, they function

It's that foreign cars are often a better investment. Especially when it looks like the American companies are on the verge of collapse - I'm not going to buy a Ford today if it means ten years down the line the only way I can get a part for it is calling around every junkyard on the west coast.

The problem is that US autos simply aren't competitive. The US consumers are saying, give us better mileage, and the heads of the industry say in return "Bigger and more rugged? You got it!" While Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, and Volkswagon are giving us better mileage.

The era of the macho dickmeat truck has passed, but nobody seems to have told the big three. Instead they waste millions making ad after ad of their massive trucks grinding up clifffaces out in the Sonora or somewhere to show how manly their product is... But most people aren't trying to fucking haul cattle through the Badlands of South Dakota in the bed of their goddamn truck

[JerseygirlCT]

125. Better mileage, less time in the shop, built to last far longer

than 70,000 miles... that's what we're looking for.

I don't want to buy into the idea that I'll be getting a new car every 3-4 years as it seems Detroit has wanted to push in the past few decades. I want to be looking at a very long-term relationship when I buy a new car.

And I don't want to be looking at too close a relationship with the guys at the dealership service center, you know? I'd like to visit every 5000 miles or so for my oil change, occasional scheduled work and that's all.

Then I don't want to think about it - at all. I just want it to work. No headaches. No worries. No money out the door. No getting stranded and waiting for AAA because the stupid thing has broken down again.

That's what I want.

[Chulanowa]

149. One of the things that annoyed me...

Was the recent trend among all automakers - not just American ones - that you have to take your auto back to the company to fix any problem with it. Maybe it's just 'cause I've worked a long time as a mechanic, but that always seemed like a goddamned awful move.

Good for the company, and I guess there's a number of customers who think (for some reason) that Toyota or Ford are less likely to bilk them than the local mechanic, for whom this arrangement is a plus... But I know there's a lot of people who want to be able to work on their own cars, and there are even more people who work in auto repair around the nation... And having to take special classes and get new registrations and buy expensive tools just so you can work on the next car that rolls up to your shop is going to kill your business.

American autos are a victim of several pathologies in the American psyche - The primary one that makes me slap my head is machismo,. Everyone needs a huge, heavy, inefficient truck that's so "rugged" and "manly" it could put stubble on Zooey Deschanel's chin. Another one is our obsession with disposability. We don't want cars that last, we want cars that are better than the new one our neighbor just got!

[JerseygirlCT]

177. Oh, if I found a mechanic to trust, I wouldn't feel tied to a

dealership, necessarily. (Although I do trust the VW place I use now; they've always treated us very well and honorably. The Chrysler experience we had in the past OTOH, was horrendous, and a big reason I don't think I'd ever, ever buy another Chrysler without some seriously big reasons).

And yes, yes, yes to the machismo. I can't tell you how many people seem to feel the need to drive around in big honking pick-ups or other monsters - and you can tell they don't use them for anything but driving the family around. My neighbors, OTOH - they have trucks, because they USE the darned things. All the time. Heavily. But too often, they've become some sort of strange status symbol. Ditto on the disposable thing.

I don't want disposable. I want forever, thanks. I'd like to watch that odometer click over onto 200k. That would be fun. Was getting there on my Subaru until an unfortunate meeting with a guardrail on a rainy night ended that one...

[Fearless]

182. You are 100% correct.

The myth stems from the auto industry ALONE, which today isn't true anymore anyways. It's just hilarious how many people believe this even after the lead paint and melamine issues with China and even after they whine about outsourcing jobs to India, China, and Indonesia.

:kick:
NTF

[Dis Pater]

2. Amazing how easily the "un-American" insult is bandied about

the urge to otherize is strong in some people.

[Fading Captain]

80. To me, it's not about being UNAMERICAN

It's about deciding if you are a citizen, or a consumer.

A citizen makes sacrifices and might pay a higher price for the greater good. A consumer always looks for the best deal.

[drmeow]

3. To add to this

Where were the parts to that "American" car made? Where was the car assembled? Where were the parts for the foreign car made? Where was it assembled?

On the other hand, Consumer Reports says that American cars have been getting better as far as reliability is concerned.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Xenophobia is a big seller. But, it's funny how many "unAmerican" shoppers there are.

[Joe Chi Minh]

95. It's not about flag-waving and nationalistic slogans. It's a little thing called, "solidarity".

What a contrast it is to reads these posts and read about the service people in Iraq and Afghanistan risking their lives for each other. Not for their country. For each other. As long as you have that "I've got mine" mentality, you'll never deserve "tierra" or "libertad".

[Cleita]

6. What we need are tariffs like we used to have on imported goods that

are manufactured here. That way they can't undercut domestically made goods. People still have a choice if they don't mind paying the price.

[tritsofme]

34. Why not let consumers choose the most affordable good?

The one that works the best for themselves and their families?

Oh, and we export over a $1,000,000,000 in goods to fereners every year, I'm sure they won't get pissed out our protectionist tariff policies and respond in kind.

Good thing PE Obama doesn't listen to crap advice like this.

[Cleita]

37. Gee and I don't even give the crap advice but people with impressive

credentials and degrees in economics like Dr. Ravi Batra and Warren Buffett. You've heard of him if not Dr. Batra? President elect Obama is being led down the primrose path by Milton Friedman Chicago School of Economics, economists. I think he will see the error of his ways when he finds that their advice won't work for us anymore than it did in Great Britain, Chile or Argentina. Rolling back tariffs have caused most of our manufacturing jobs to go overseas to be made by cheap, slave labor that we can't compete with to be reimported to us. It has caused the median wage of the American worker to be stagnated but that doesn't mean that your gas and food aren't going up. It has caused a trade deficit with our dollars rolling out of the country but not much coming back. But people like you only want to see out of one blind eye that "hey I can get all that stuff cheaper if it's made in China" and I don't give a crap if I never make the wages a good union job will pay because I can get cheap stuff.

[Fading Captain]

83. Because when we trade with countries that allow $2-a-day labor

We undermine our own soveriegnty.

What is the point in having a democracy, and voting for a party to change laws, if our economic polocies undermine our laws.

[Dreamer Tatum]

74. I assume you're joking

Did we REALLY learn nothing from the Great Depression?

[Auggie]

7. Okay, how about "Consider Buying American Products..?"

[MadHound]

10. I have no problem with that,

In fact I do make that consideration on many items I purchase. In fact, if you take food into consideration, I imagine that I spend more money on American products than most of these "Buy American" hyperventilators around here.

[JerseygirlCT]

119. No problem at all with that

or especially with: "I've found that this car, or this one or this one has been terrific and worth looking at..."

It's the silliness and "buy American or else" stuff that's just, well, silly.

[MadMaddie]

8. The message should be America needs to manufacture

good quality products for Americans to buy. Other countries around the world promote their own products built within their own country.

What is wrong with pushing for America creating more industries within our own borders?

Why is this wrong? You and others have no problem with other countries protecting themselves and their workers. You have no problem with little or no Tariffs on the goods that get imported to America, but when an American product is shipped over seas the Tariffs are astronomical.

You are blaming the Unions and the workers for not demanding that their CE O's take another path to be successful. You forget that the blue collar workers don't get to participate in those decisions.

It is a fallacy that it is isolationism that many of us want our country to produce it's own goods.

Americans are more than capable of building successful industries, over the last 40 years the Republicans have made sure to destroy anything that would benefit the middle-class and any industries on American soil.

It will take true leadership to turn this country around.

[MadHound]

12. I have no problem with America creating more industries within its borders

In fact I would welcome it. I've been bemoaning the flight of US manufacturing for the past quarter century.

However I do object to some people's notion that we buy American out of blind patriotism, wasting our hard earned money on shoddy products.

I think that if you look at my posts on this subject, I've never mentioned a thing about tariffs, so please, don't lump me into some category. If we're going to all trade on a level field, then either all tariffs need to be low, or all tariffs need to be protectionist:shrug:

And yes, Unions do have a say in what gets manufactured, or at least they could if they would take it upon themselves. I don't know how many auto workers that I've talked with who knew their industry was going downhill because of the quality of their product. Perhaps if they made Quality Number 1 as one of their bargaining points, and went on strike over that, then not only would they get the full support of the American people, but they could have reversed the course that the Big 3 went down.

I'm seriously hoping that this energy industry that Obama is wanting to use to revitalize the manufacturing sector really does come about. Let's also hope that he doesn't sell it down the river and over the seas like Clinton did with the tech manufacturing sector during the ninties.

[Orsino]

17. Yeah. It's sad that the "Unamerican" label isn't as often applied...

...to the behemoths that are laying off all those union members. I feel very ambivalent about blind loyalty to our executive class.

But brand names are powerful talismans in capitalist societies, and an easy bigotry.

[Two Americas]

24. corporations and brand names

Corporations and brand names respect no borders. You are not hurting American capitalists by buying imported goods. They would rather manufacture things overseas, where they are not hampered by worker protections, unionism, environmental laws and regulation. You may, however, be hurting American workers by buying imported goods.

Being prejudiced against cheap goods manufactured overseas, often by US corporations, is not "bigotry" nor "xenophobia." Nor is anyone playing into brand loyalty. We are asking for people to look for "made in America" on products, not a brand name.

We fought long and hard to get country of origin labeling on food products. Why? So people can know they are buying food that is grown under US law and to support our public agriculture infrastructure and regulatory agencies.

[Two Americas]

14. hit a nerve apparently

What on earth is wrong with encouraging people to buy American made and grown goods?

I haven't seen anyone bullying, demanding or doing anything else wrong. The complaints are way out of proportion to the alleged offense.

[MadHound]

16. Yes, it hit a nerve

And if you haven't seen the threads and posts over the past couple of weeks castigating people for buying foreign made cars, foreign made clothes and such, perhaps you haven't been paying attention:shrug:

There is nothing wrong with encouraging people to buy American, however trying to demand that people buy American, trying to bully people into buying American, sorry, but that's just wrong.

[RB TexLa]

15. They have a mental illness. These are people who think Non-Americans are not worthy of

an American's purchase, some don't think Non-Americans are worthy of having a job.

[Orsino]

18. No, they've got a great point...

...in that our money is power, and should be wielded intelligently in dealings with the best possible employers of Americans.

But "they" seem to be missing an even bigger picture, in that Detroit is part of the same problem they purport to care so much about. It's not quite as simple as they wish--not anymore, if it ever was.

[RB TexLa]

46. Or we can spend our money with whomever we wish and remember that other human beings are equal to

Americans and just as worthy of our support.

[pampango]

61. "Other human beings are equal to Americans". You better watch it.

You could get kicked off DU for that kind of talk.

Lots of posters here seem to know that Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and anyone else that is poorer than we are, is the source of our economic problems. Our screwed up tax system and lack of health care and other social services has nothing to do with it. If we straightened up our own country (and we have some hope of that with Obama) - tax structure, health care, etc. - we could solve our problems without demonizing foreigners.

Germany has wage levels comparable to ours, perhaps higher, and better health care and other social services and they still export more than we do (and they are a smaller country than the US). They seem to be able to deal with competition from China, India and Mexico just fine.

:hi:

[Deja Q]

157. Fine. Give up your job and then we'll give you credibility.

Offshoring has not hurt America. Secure information has said to have been moved to countries that lack the laws and regulations to protect them -- and us.

Some have made jibes about the people... but is it really about the people? No. It's about policies that don't make sense... or even add up to any happy conspiracy some people would otherwise want to believe in.

And while many products are good, didn't it seem odd that there was a spate of recalls for poorly made and/or toxic products?

Whatever "globalization" is, there's no structure that rewards good work or gives an incentive. Just how cheap it is, which can mean cheaply made too. Such a philosophy surely wrecks everyone at some point?

Ditto for education; if it's about doing things cheaply and seeing current jobs go out the door, who's going to bother getting a loan or paying cash for education for a job that won't be there?

I am seeing rgbolen's point -- but let's get real: The whole is far more complex. I wonder what he does for a living -- will both of you give up your jobs as real proof of competition? Hmm, thought not.

Sorry for a choppy read of a response. I don't know what to think but I think the same can be applied to anyone in the GD forum.

[pampango]

167. You blame all of our economic problems on outsourcing and globalization. I say that

that if our country's tax structure, health care and other social service systems were more like Germany's (or better under Obama hopefully), we would be much better off. Germany has similar wages and better health care and other social services provided by their government and yet they thrive and are the biggest exporting country in the world - not the US (#2), not China (#3), not India (way down the list).

I'm not saying we should do everything the way that Germany does it, perhaps we can figure out how to do things even better in some areas. However, their example does show that a wealthy country can compete and thrive in competition with the Chinas and Indias of the world. They got their domestic act together-their taxes, health care, social services, education. They don't out-export China by paying their employees less than Chinese do, but by producing better, if not cheaper, goods.

We competed well with the rest of the world under Clinton. Bush has decimated our tax system, health care, education, etc, so that we now spend our time fighting with poor people in other countries rather than in getting our own "house" in order.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Except for the fact that american workers support our economy and pay for our schools...

... you might have had a point.

[RB TexLa]

77. There's no except. It supports the economy and pays for schools

economic activity anywhere supports schools and economies. The children getting an education somewhere else are just as worthy of it as Americans.

[Deja Q]

158. True. But at what point do we become a one-world government?

Right now it's a gaggle of incompatible disconnects.

What's your solution? Postulate some ideas and stop with the broken record routine; we all know and agree with you regarding education, et cetera, et cetera.

[MadHound]

78. So do American farmers, and American workers in other non-auto industries

Yet what the fuck were you buying when these sectors were going down the drain during the eighties? Oh, yeah, that's right, buying Mexican produce and Japanese electronics.

Get the point yet?

[Romulox]

201. Yep. The internet is THE place for revenge fantasies, and this is yours. nt

[Deja Q]

160. Who is your enemy? Would you give money to them?

I see your point, but you're living in a fantasy world.

Unless I'm wrong and there are no such things as separated countries anymore... ?

[Deja Q]

163. Cool - I recomend this toy for your whole family to touch and lick!

http://montaraventures.com/blog/2007/08/02/dont-tickle-me-elmo/

Support products that maim and kill all YOU want. Most of us are pro-life.

[Fading Captain]

85. This is too serious for ridiculous comments like that

We've got hundreds of thousands of people in this country living on company pensions.

Excuse me if I think it's MIGHTY STUPID to just allow a jolly-come lately to come into the country, free of these "entitlement" costs, and absolutely wipe them out.

[Deja Q]

159. Pensions these people paid into. It's not "entitlement" - it's getting back what they paid into.

I wonder if anybody is going to want a 401k in the future, if all the talk of it being a giant pyramid scheme is true?

[knitter4democracy]

120. Ummm . . . no.

No, I just think that I'd rather spend my money on American-made yarn that provided jobs here and was processed to meet environmental restrictions as opposed to stuff shipped all over the seas and to and from China because they're okay with poisoning their environment.

[Deja Q]

161. I can't wait to read his response to you - I'm sure he's man enough to make one.

(and you're right; regarding the lack of regulations allowing things to be made cheaply -- it's hurting every human just as equally as any idea he has mentioned. Like the rest of us, he's got his special pair of custom-made blinders on...)

[knitter4democracy]

165. There's quite the to-do in the knitting world over it right now.

We've started looking at where our yarns are coming from, and you'd be shocked at how much oil goes into even wool yarn, especially if you take the shipping into account.

Me, I would rather get yarn made here in the States out of wool raised here--much less shipping and oil involved and a whole lot more environmental controls.

[Deja Q]

156. And vice-versa.

;)

[spoony]

197. Rarely has anyone here missed the mark more than you just did.

It was jaw-droppingly bad. Seriously.

[madmom]

19. I find it totally ironic how on one thread people are la basting people for buying

foreign craps from Wal-mart and on another thread people are defending their right to buy foreign cars. Is this the beauty of hypocrisy or what?

[MadHound]

20. No, it's the beauty of holding opinions and have the right to free speech

Frankly I wouldn't have posted this thread except for the fact that people have been beat over the head with the "Buy American" meme ever since the whole Detroit bailout issue came up. Enough is enough:shrug:

[Leftist78]

21. hmm...

I have a '98 Ford that's just shy of 120,000, and I've never replaced anything that part of the normal maintenance routine (battery, plugs, wires, filters...etc). Before that I had a Chevy that had about 160,000 on it when I sold it, and the story was the same except I had to replace an alternator once. So much for the whole "American cars are junk argument". Maybe in the 80's you'd have had a point. If you have a preference for foreign cars that's fine, but if others want to criticize that decision as ignorant consumerism that harms the American economy, they wouldn't be too far off base.

[MadHound]

23. Hey, I can play anecdotal games with you too

I've got a '98 Honda Civic that's got 150,000 miles on it. I've got a '87 Toyota Corolla with over 250,000 miles on it. All I've done on either car is regular maintenence.

And frankly, if you look at the literature, the critics, those who are professionals in the field, they agree with my stance, that the Big 3 really didn't start making quality machines until the past seven-eight years.

But hey, if you want to play the anecdotal game, we can talk about the 1991 Ford Fiesta that caught fire on my girl friend. Or all those exploding Crown Vics built in the early '00's, killing fourteen police officers. Do you want me to go on?

[Leftist78]

26. Yeah Yeah

Look you have a preference for those auto makers, and that's fine. My perception of quality must be skewed because of my uncanny luck in car purchases I guess. The FACT is that buying those foriegn makers autos is supporting a policy of undercutting union jobs here in America and pumping money into a forign economy at the expense of our own. If it doesn't bother you then I guess that's good for you. I wouldn't exactly call that position progressive, but whatever. Personally, I will support good union jobs whenever I can, and as long as my "luck" holds out, I'll be buying American/union made autos.

[MadHound]

31. No, I have a preference for quality, reliability, economy and longevity in my cars

That's why I buy the cars that I do. Next time I buy a new car, I will do the same thing that I do every time, thoroughly research all the models out there, foreign and domestic, and then pick the one that best fulfills the above criteria. If that's a foreign make, so be it, if it's a domestic make, so be it. I don't have the kind of money to throw away on crap, no matter who makes it.

It isn't the responsibility of Americans to buy domestic cars just because they're built here in the US. That sort of controlled economic system is more akin to a Soviet style controlled economy. It is the responsibility of American auto manufacturers to make autos that meet or exceed the quality of foreign makers in order to retain the business of Americans. Yet for decades now they haven't done that. Instead they've given us piss poor products that are not only inferior to foreign models, but are down right dangerous(after all, you think that Ford would have learned about exploding gas tanks after the Pinto debacle, but noooo, they rolled out the Crown Vic and proceeded to kill over fourteen cops and injured who knows how many others).

And it isn't like Detroit didn't know about the problem. Since the late '70's, when the Japanese first began to clean their clocks, critics, government officials, and the market itself has screamed at Detroit to make better vehicles. Instead, they gave us crap and SUV's(wait, I repeat myself). And where were the unions in this mess? Why weren't they at the bargaining table demanding better products, in order to save their own jobs? Why did it have to come to this sort of crisis, when it could have been averted at any point over the past three decades? And you have the gall to blame the American consumer for engaging in the most basic of capitalist of practices, buying the best value for the money:eyes:

Now I understand that some American cars are actually starting to meet or exceed foreign makes, and for that I applaud them. When it's finally time to put my '98 Nissan truck or '98 Honda out to pasture, I will definitely look at the American models. After all, unlike you, with me it is all about the best value for my dollar, not an ideology.

[Leftist78]

38. Again fine

typical and cynical, but fine.

[dpibel]

43. That's Festiva to you

Then there's my '91 Festiva, still unburned after 267,000 miles with just standard maintenance.

But it's kind of a bad example for your point, what with being built by KIA, and pure Korean, except for the name.

[MadHound]

57. Yeah, then there is the issue of branding,

And what truly constitutes a true American vehicle anymore. A Chevy, made in Mexico, a Toyota made in the US, a Mazda made in Japan, but shipping profits home to Ford, what really is a truly US car in the era of globalization?

[Kalyke]

137. I can counter...

Check out the last two years' recal lists: the top recalls are on foreign cars.

And my ex-boyfriend's Nissan blew up on him and so did my ex-husband's Nissan. My husband's Beemer falls apart every three months and my in-laws' Toyotas are always in the shop. My Ford, however, never sees the inside of a shop except for oil changes.

[MadHound]

140. Hey, I can counter my own self, seeing as I have a '49 Desoto, a '51 Chevy truck and a '67 Ford LTD

That's the point I was trying to make, we can all come up with anecdotal shit, d'uh. But bring me the report of an objective car critic or expert who will say that American iron over the past thirty years is better than most of the big foreign makes. Bring me objective statistics that show that. You can't, and you know it, hell, even the Big 3 have admitted more than once that they have, for the most part, made sub-par autos over the past thirty years. At best, what you're going to find are those that say that American cars have finally caught up with the big foreign makes in the last eight years, and even exceeded them in some rare instances. But over the sweep of three decades, no, you're not going to find anybody who is objective on the matter who will state that American makes were better.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. My 15 year old Chevy truck has a quarter of a million miles.

Fuck the op and his uninformed predjudices.

He doesn't have a point now, and he didn't have a point in the '80 or before. American cars (in general) are no worse (in general) than the average import. Quality improves in the industry as a whole at about the same rate. Vegas and Yugos are outliers.

[MadHound]

56. So, is everything you purchase made in America?

The clothes on your back, the food that you eat? After all, in the fifteen years since you bought that Chevy truck of yours, I imagine that you've probably purchased about the same amount of food, clothing, electronics and other consumer goods as the original price of your truck.

You bemoan the loss of American auto jobs, yet jobs have been disappearing in all sectors of our society, lost to overseas competitors.

When you buy that food, clothes or other goods, what are you looking for in your purchase? Convenience? The best value for your dollar? Then why shouldn't that apply to our decisions concerning cars?

Hypocrite much?

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Peddle your straw men somewhere else.

Given the availability of a product made in america, I have a strong bias toward the domestic product. No one is telling you what to buy, it is you telling us (because of your vast experience with brazillians of cars) that the stuff we make here is shit.

The fact that you consider the reaction you got from that statement puzzling says a great deal more about you than those who you responded to.

But you should be commended, your brief post demonstrated (by my count) at least a half-dozen logical fallacies.

[MadHound]

76. Not a strawman at all, in fact it is the very point that I'm trying to make

You can get food that is produced entirely within the borders of the US simply by visiting your local farmers market, or by getting to know you local small farmer. Yet judging from the way that you're avoiding this question, I imagine that despite your protestation that you "have a strong bias toward the domestic product" all you do is schlup down to local grocery and buy whatever is in the produce aisle and in the butcher's case because it is convenient and a better value for your dollar.

The same rubric should then be applied to the purchase of an automobile, what is convenient and a better value for one's dollar, but you and other "Buy American" folks insist that out of some sort of blind patriotism, we should buy only American made vehicles, and if we don't, somehow we're less patriotic, less humane, and certainly not liberal. This smacks more of Soviet era controlled economy rather than what we're supposed to enjoy in this country, a free, open capitalistic system.

You can't have it both ways, either you're for purchasing all American products across the board, or you're for having an open market where people decide to purchase what is the best for their needs, and the value of the dollar in all the purchases they make. Trying to cherry pick one sector to enforce complete adherence to "Buy American" while letting the others slide is hypocrisy at it's best.

As far as the quality of US cars, as I've noted elsewhere in this thread, every single objective car critic or expert will tell that the US makes have been decidedly behind the curve over the course of the past thirty-thirty five years, and that it is only within the past eight years that they have begun to catch up or exceed foreign brands in terms of reliability, quality and value. If you can find one objective car critic or expert who says otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it, but since you seemingly have only hot air to back your ass up with, somehow I seriously doubt that will happen.

Now do you get my point, or do I have to spell it out for you?

[flvegan]

22. It also only applies to NEW car purchases.

My car was made entirely in Japan, but the only company that made any money off my purchase is the dealership I bought it from.

[LiberalEsto]

25. I agree 100% about the cars

My husband drives a 1992 Toyota Corolla. That car is now almost 17 years old. We got rid of our 1993 Dodge Caravan after replacing the transmission 5 times in 7 years.

My father-in-law had transmission problems with Buicks, one after another, until he finally wised up and bought a Toyota Camry in the early 1990s. It's still running.

I do not have the money to piss away on a cruddy car that will blow a transmission after just a couple of years.

[HughMoran]

49. Funny, I only buy American and haven't had to replace a transmission since my first car in 1977

I can't imagine ever having to replace a transmission more than once in a car's lifetime - amazing.

[LiberalEsto]

63. Dodge Caravans were notorious

for their transmission problems. We finally had an honest mechanic tell us, as he was installing transmission # 5, that their transmissions all contained metal shavings, and that no matter how many times we replaced them, the replacement transmissions would fail due to the same defect. At that point we junked it.

That damned vehicle cost us a hell of a lot of money and nearly killed my husband and daughters when its transmission failed on the Delaware Memorial Bridge during a snowstorm. They barely managed to pull the van to the side without getting hit. They ended up spending two or three days in some fleabag South Jersey motel waiting for the van to get a new trans. Of course Dodge refused to take responsibility for it, and we were stuck with the towing bill, the trans replacement, and the motel and food bills, not to mention a ruined Christmas vacation for my girls and lost wages for my husband. I was stuck in Maryland without a car, so I couldn't go pick them up.

Another time a transmission quit on Christmas Day as we were driving from Maryland to visit the grandparents in NJ. Once again we had to try getting the vehicle safely off the road in the freezing cold on a major highway and wait for hours for a tow truck. A relative drove 100 miles round-trip to pick us up and bring us to the family get-together, but we had to stay in NJ for several days waiting for a new transmission to be installed.

[pipi_k]

72. I had a Dodge Caravan with about

89,000 miles on it when I bought it, used.

Two months later the transmission crapped out. Luckily it was still under warranty and the dealer fixed it.

Other than that, I got a lot of use from it for a few years and then sold it to my BIL and his wife, who basically drove it into the ground over the course of a couple of more years. Total mileage was probably over 200,000 by that time

but anyway, yeah...another Caravan crappy transmission story

[HughMoran]

104. I owned a turbo Caravan for 5 years

It was great - there was a guy that stripped one down and drag raced it into the 11's!! (that's really fast). I would never own such a large vehicle today, but the 4 cyl turbo really did pull that car along efficiently.

Anyway, the tranny worked like a charm for the 100,000 miles I drove the Caravan for & I bought it with 70,000 miles on it. Sucks to get one of those lemons made in a bad year, but it's worse to put dwon an entire industry based on your experience with one vehicle. Don't get me started on the horrific prolems I had with my ex wife's Toyota Tercel & Volvo 142. And the last foreign car I owned - a Subaru - really pissed me off when they wouldn't cover the hill-holder that caused my brakes to fail @ 10,000 miles on the odometer. They said "oh, it's not listed on the warranty document so it's not covered". I said, "that's fine, I'll never buy a Subaru again". If you knew how little money I spent maintaining my American cars (I have 3 & do my own maintenance), you'd be really shocked. I think I spend about 1/10th what people I know do - foreign or domestic.

[JerseygirlCT]

121. We had one of those awful things too

HATED that car!

[Mike 03]

27. So much of it is experience and conditioning.

My parents were Dems, I am.

My parents rejected domestic cars because they could not afford to fix them, and as a result, the cars they handed down to me turned out to be Japanese.

[Mike 03]

28. This mania, and this "you are not a patriot if you don't drive an american car"

is without question the most painful thing I have experienced here on DU.

[Mike 03]

29. Rec, by the way. I can't believe that everyone is not rec'ing this.

Otherwise we are right back to simpleminded McCarthyism.

You don't want an American made car? You are a commie.

What fucking horseshit, and what an embarrassment to an otherwise great website.

[ProfessorGAC]

70. Nobody Said That

Only Hound said that people said that. Nobody here said anything about patriotism or communism. Now, you're saying it, but nobody with the counter opinion about preferring american made products did.

It's too convenient to put thoughts into other people's heads to reinforce a point. Hound did it. Now you're doing it.

I'm not recommending this thread simply because it doesn't make any sense to make a point about high cost, durable goods, and then try to compare people buying habits with ordinary consumables.

If the premise of the thread doesn't hold water, then there's no reason to rec it.
The Professor

[MadHound]

81. Actually, if you check the flamefest threads on this subject over the past few weeks

Especially the locked one that floated around the past few days, you will most certainly find that if you don't buy American cars, certain posters will state that you're not patriotic, humane, liberal and other fun derogatory names.

The comparison I feel is apt, that most people buy what they feel is the best value for their dollar, whether it be in food, clothes or cars, and shouldn't be castigated for the choices they make with their hard earned money. If you don't understand that, I'm not sure how else I could put it.

[ProfessorGAC]

128. I Read Those

You're still taking the easy way out by making sweeping genaralization apropos of nothing.

You know that. I know you do.
GAC

[gollygee]

30. I have a "buy American affirmative action" thing

American-bought things have the edge. I look for that first. If I can't find what I want, or if something made elsewhere better fills my need, I buy the foreign thing.

I think people should know that companies move overseas even if their items are popular and even if their items sell well. It's about greed. If they can make more profits by going somewhere else, they'll do it regardless of how profitable they are with American workers. To some extent this issue involves chasing after windmills.

[LeftyMom]

35. That's pretty much my thought process.

I'd rather buy American if it's feasible, but I'm not going to buy something that doesn't meet my needs based purely on country of origin.

I do have a domestic car and I like it quite a bit, but I may well replace it with an import because Saturn no longer makes a wagon, and the similarly sized models that would meet my needs are largely imports. The closest I could do with a domestic, in terms of cargo room and functionality would be a mini SUV, and I don't like them as much.

Edit: I should add that my first priority in a car is reliability. It's a matter of economic self defense- as a single parent and a full time student I really can't afford unexpected repairs or time where I can't get to school because my car's in the shop. I love the reliability of my Saturn, but I really don't trust most domestic model small-to-midsize cars to be similarly dependable, based on both my research and prior experience.

Domestic manufacturers do great trucks, large sedans and SUVs, but I wouldn't want any of those even if I could afford them, they just don't meet my needs. They're just now starting to catch up with sedans and their wagons are still mostly full of fail.

[Gormy Cuss]

47. That's ingrained in me, as the child of a union worker.

Try to take care of American jobs first, because the people doing those jobs are your relatives and neighbors. I buy foreign-made goods all the time but only after I've failed to find homegrown goods that suit my needs or wants.

And you're absolutely right about some companies moving jobs overseas even when the company can make a profit using domestic workers. That's where tariffs help.

[knitter4democracy]

122. Me too.

I start with American-made yarns, and if those mills don't have what I'm looking for, then I look elsewhere.

As for clothing, sorry, I have to go with what's cheapest, and that's not American-made stuff. The budget's taking a beating, especially with the divorce crap starting up, so I'm going to have to go with what's cheapest but look first to see if I can afford the American-made stuff.

And I freakin' love my Ford Freestyle. Best car I've ever owned, hands down.

[ContinentalOp]

146. See, that's interesting. And I'm not trying to criticize you personally...

but just to point out the difference in perspective. To me, buying a Japanese made car is not nearly as big of a deal as buying clothing made by children in a third world sweatshop. You know that those Japanese Toyota factory workers are probably doing OK, but who knows the story behind cheap clothes made in China?

Again, this is not to criticize you personally, but just to point out that I agree with the O.P. and that some of the "anyone who buys a foreign car is an enemy to the American worker" nonsense is really hypocritical.

Perhaps it's an age thing. An older generation of liberal Democrats was brought to the party from a union perspective while some younger Democrats have a more global, human-rights oriented point of view on the issue. Unfortunately most of us, particularly younger people, aren't lucky enough to belong to a union, so there can be a degree of selfish jealousy as well. Pensions? Health benefits? What are those?

[knitter4democracy]

166. I used to never buy anything made in a sweatshop.

Then, our budget started getting out of hand and I had to cut back. I reuse stuff for the kids' school lunches or have them get the lunch when they want it, buy them far less stuff in general, and do what I can to reuse bags and recycle as much as possible. Still, as fast as they're growing, I just can't afford the better, more expensive clothes, especially not now that we're going to end up packing them back and forth between two houses.

[Lisa0825]

32. When choosing between any 2 products of equal quality, if one is American,

I will choose it. But "quality" is the key term. I don't deny that American cars have gotten better. But when I compared cars in my budget, I wasn't going to take the one reviewed with lower standards in order to be patriotic. I need a car that I will be happy with for many years, and quality has to be my first priority.

[MadHound]

33. Thanks for your sanity

That is exactly what I do. It just burns me that some folks around here jump all over people like us for shopping for quality rather than engaging in blind patriotism.

[Vinnie From Indy]

108. Ya know, until you post some specific examples from specific threads

that support your main thesis, your post is just silly nonsnese. The Professor is exactly right! He noted that you guys huffing and puffing about comments using the words "unpatriotic" and the like are engaging in straw man arguments. Let's see these posts that offend your sensibilities so!

Where's the beef?

[MadHound]

109. Apparently you haven't read this thread thoroughly,

Much less the other umpteen "Buy American" threads over the past few weeks.

But then again, it might be those cocktails at work, eh.

[mondo joe]

39. And price.

I'd add price to the equation.

Equal quality and equal price, buy American.

[Lisa0825]

42. Yes, definitely.

It's quality in the same price range that I consider. If I could afford top quality, I'd buy the best car on the market. As it is, I looked at all the cars in the $13K-16K range and chose based on the various sites' consumer and expert ratings.

[Posteritatis]

44. Given equal quality I'd be willing to pay more to buy local

How much more depends on the product (and my finances), naturally.

[mondo joe]

50. Some more, certainly.

I try to always buy local and independent, and do a fair job of it. I support independent bookstores, local grocers and farmers markets, independent restaurants and even an independent movie theater, rather than chain counterparts.

I'm willing to pay some amount more. But it has to be within reason.

[Posteritatis]

51. Oh, of course! (nt)

[earth mom]

36. If we want real change, we should harness our buying power. Otherwise we are all p*ssing in the wind

which it sounds like you are doing oh so happily.

Me, I want change and I'll do what it takes to get it.


p.s. I LOVE the American made cars I've owned and haven't had problems with any I've owned since I got my drivers license 30 years ago. I think you are looking for an excuse to hate American made cars.

[MadHound]

58. Yes, I hate American iron, that's why I've got literally tons of it in my car barn

Like a '48 Desoto, a '51 Chevy truck, and a '67 Ford LTD. Yes, I just love to hate that American iron:eyes:

Tell you what, you're doing so much to be the change, do you buy everything made in the US? How about that produce you're getting this time of year? Those bananas you like, that burger you eat at the drive through? Is that all made here in the US? Hypocrite much?

And while you have a wonderful anecdotal tale there, the fact of the matter is that you will not and cannot find any objective car critic or other such expert who will go on the record as saying that the Big 3 automakers have, over the past thirty years, been the equal in quality to many foreign makes. In fact they will tell you that through the stupidity and poor planning on the part of corporate heads, our auto industry has had it's collective ass handed to it time and again, and it is only now, within the past eight years that we've begun to catch up and gain ground.

So you expect people should have wasted their money on shoddy product out of blind corporate patriotism. Hmm, sounds more like a Soviet style controlled economy than US capitalism.

[comrade snarky]

98. I dont believe you

You should post a photo of the Desoto to prove it :evilgrin:

[Stinky The Clown]

40. Your rhetoic in makming your case is as bad or worse than that of those who you decry.

I may or may not agree with you.

But I can't get past your 'tude.

[MadHound]

59. Well, having the choices that I make with my hard earned money berated, insulted and lambasted,

Along with my character, patriotism and humanity questioned over a period of weeks does tend to make me a bit cranky. If that's a problem with you, so be it. I didn't write this to win a congeniality contest, but rather to make a point.

[Forkboy]

41. All I have to say is, DU is making me glad I ride the bus.

[NoPasaran]

62. An American-made bus, if you know what's good for you!

[unapatriciated]

142. lol

hopefully one like this...

[Forkboy]

144. Not that fancy.

They are hybrids though. :)

[Darkhawk32]

45. If we put as much pressure on American car companies to IMPROVE....

their product rather than deride and berate those who don't buy American cars, then the Big 3 wouldn't be in trouble.

[HughMoran]

48. I stopped reading at the "domestic cars are crap" meme

You are misinformed and you lost me as a reader.

I only buy American cars - ask me anything.

[MadHound]

60. Then you missed the point of this post, so I'll ask you

Is everything that you buy made here in the US? The food on your table, the clothes on your back, the electronics you play with, the computer you're typing on?

Or do you get what the best value for your money is with those purchases? If that's the case, then why should those of us who apply the same rubric to our car purchases have our patriotism, liberalism, humanity questioned? Why should we be berated and insulted because we look for value in all our purchases?

It's the hypocrisy, get it?

[ProfessorGAC]

69. How Convenient

You make your point about cars, then decide that's not what you were talking about when it's convenient.

It's not hypocrisy at all!

Big ticket items are hardly the same as consumables.
The Professor

[MadHound]

84. I really think that you need to go back and reread my OP

I've stated my point in this thread multiple times, and if you still don't get it, either you're being deliberately obtuse or incredibly dense, since most of the other people seem to have gotten it.

And over the course of a car's lifetime(at least the cars I purchase, which is generally ten years plus) you do indeed spend as much money on food and other consumables as the price that you paid for the car. Go do the math.

[ProfessorGAC]

129. I Read It

Let me explain:

You can have your opinion. You're entitled, of course.

But, when you immediately set your premise upon the "american cars are crap" meme, and we all know (including you) that the data doesn't support it, dropping from that to "hypocrite" doesn't work intellctually.

It simply makes no sense to go from A to B. You know that. I've read your posts before.

You've got a bug up your nose about something that really has nothing to do with american made products.

It's obvious. I'm surprised you don't recognize it. I've read your stuff. You're too smart to write something this indefensible.
GAC

[HughMoran]

100. I agree - changing the argument to fit one's purpose is annoying at best

It's just not worth my time.

[ContinentalOp]

148. Ridiculous.

You're right that big ticket items are not the same as consumables. I'm certainly not going to follow some bullshit patriotic moral code when it comes to something that costs twenty thousand dollars! Your point of view is ridiculous. You want us to buy American on the big ticket items (a once a decade purchase in my case) but ignore the thousands of little purchases we make every year? It's OK that we buy clothing made by children in third world sweatshops as long as we buy a good union made American truck? That incidentally requires us to buy a lot more foreign oil? Nice logic there.

[ProfessorGAC]

196. Who Asked You To?

Don't put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head. I never told anyone what to buy or not buy.

I just said don't conflate the issue by moving from point to point as if the facts don't matter.

How is that ridiculous, and when did i tell anyone to buy american?

That's pretty convenient too. You want to disagree with me, disagree with me, but don't make up stuff i didn't even say to find a point of disagreement. That's just as intellecutally dishonest as the earlier posters.

You buy what you want and i'll buy what i want. Neither decisions affects the other, so we'll both be perfectly happy.
GAC

[alittlelark]

53. uh, yeah.....

.....sigh.....

[Rosa Luxemburg]

64. my kettle was made in the Czech Republic

it's good.

[NNN0LHI]

65. You left out one very important and obvious detail from your OP

Whats the name of the business you are in?

What is the reason for not letting us all judge whether or not the goods and/or services your company provides are crappy? Why are you holding that information back from us?

I am sure you are all proud of the great products or services that you provide in your line of work? Aren't you?

Lets hear a little about it.

Don

[MadHound]

89. Wow, you certainly get caught up in tangentinals don't you

I farm right now, that's my business. If you want to come out and try my organic fruits and veggies sometime, go for it.

In a couple of years I'll be teaching, if you wish to send your kids to my class, go for it.

But you're missing the entire point of this post because you can't get over the fact that I dare to criticize the quality of domestic autos. Yet the fact of the matter is that any objective car critic or expert with tell you that over the past thirty-thirty five years American makes were indeed inferior to many foreign cars, and that it's only over the past eight years that some domestic models have met or exceeded the quality of foreign labels. This isn't a knock on the auto worker, it is due to the arrogance and piss poor planning by the corporate heads of the Big 3. If you can't wrap your head around that, I'm sorry, but that is the reality of the matter. Hell, even the corporate heads at GM, Ford and Chrysler will tell you the same thing.

[NNN0LHI]

91. You wouldn't be one of these farmers would you?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2008/11/obama_goes_after_farm_subsidie.html?hpid=artslot?hpid=artslot

<snip>Obama cited a GAO report out yesterday that said from 2003 to 2006, "millionaire farmers" got $49 million in farm subsidies despite earning more than the $2.5 million cutoff in annual income.

"If it's true," Obama said, "it's a prime example of waste."

[MadHound]

94. LOL, no, I don't get subsidies from the government, never have, never will

And I'm certainly not a millionaire farmer. If I were then gee, I'd have been able to everything American made over the past thirty years. Instead, I've got to get value for my dollar, just like the overwhelming number of people in this country.

[NNN0LHI]

96. I know several millionaires who demand value for their dollar like its their last one

They use those very words. I don't know?

Don

[Sex Pistol]

71. I have a Ford F-150 and a Toyota Forerunner.

They are both made in America and they are both fine vehicles.

I work hard for my money and I want my money to "work hard" for me.

[1gobluedem]

131. The difference is..

The people who built your F-150 are able to support their families on their wages. The people who built your Forerunner are actively prevented from joining a union and make lousy wages.

Apples and oranges.

[Sex Pistol]

169. Actually, it’s Pick-ups and SUV’s.

The people who built my F-150 tend to offer their loyalty to a 3rd party rather than the company they work for. That 3rd party has instigated policies that are endangering their jobs. On the other hand, Toyota workers are loyal to Toyota and Toyota rewards their loyalty with a better salary than that of UAW workers.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

[Joe Chi Minh]

73. "....that's not how capitalism in this country works." I'm not saying anything...

But seriously, you are a creep of the first water. I just don't know how you have the gall to post on here, unless there is a whole dimension missing from your personality. You must be really dumb if you think most Americans will still swallow that fifties far- right, capitalist bullsh*t, now of all times.

Nobody is forced to buy American EVEN NOW. But your position is nothing less than Ayn Rand style, "I'm all right, Jack", libertarian!

"But most of all, I understand that thoroughly American concept of capitalism, of getting the best bargain for your money. Thus, I'm proud to be a liberal, progressive, patriotic American, and to hell with those who try to say otherwise."

You're not a "liberal, progressive, patriotic American". You're a very, very sick puppy. Who's sounds past veterinary treatment. Haven't you noticed how American-style capitalism, led by your banks and Wall Street, is doing so splendidly? If you haven't you're a knave as well as a haf-wit. What are you doing on DU? GET LOST!

[Romulox]

86. It's a concerted effort to make the Democratic Party the new Republican Party.

How does the OP's economic philosophy differ from John McCain's? :shrug:

[Joe Chi Minh]

87. It's less sophisticated... I can just see MadHound lurching forward, "Not you Rom....!"

[MadHound]

90. Thanks again for proving my point

You're demonstrating what I was trying to get across. Thanks for playing, come again.

[hfojvt]

103. it depends on what the meaning of liberal and progressive are

In the post Clinton DLC era, a liberal is somebody who is liberal on social issues, even if they are very conservative on economic issues. At least in their own mind. They can say "I don't give a sh*t about the working class, but I am still a liberal."

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. Maybe you should draw a distinction between design and workmanship

I think American cars are probably well-designed, but I will laugh at anyone who tries to tell me
that the fit and finish of an American car is the same as a Japanese or German car.

When I was new car shopping, I noted peeling and loose molding on the Lucerne, loose knobs and buttons
on Cadillac instrumentation, uneven dashboard panels on a Ford, and a general sense that American
carmakers have no interest in the detail work that makes for great cars. I'm not dropping $30K on a
car that runs right, but is fraying at the edges. Fuck that.

Also, when you buy anything in this country, you're supporting the infrastructure that makes it available
for sale, which is most assuredly American. Manufacturing jobs are not holy. They are not inherently more
noble than sales, marketing, or logistics jobs.

When you import steel, you also import cleaner air (want to fry your noodle? Milton Friedman said that). That
has value that doesn't show up in GDP. I don't understand why people regard the 60's and 70's as the greatest
industrial years imaginable, when the ecology is in demonstrably better shape than it was then.

[Romulox]

82. LOL at this:"When you import steel, you also import cleaner air".

You've got it 180 degree backward. You are importing dirtier air by buying products from countries with lower environmental standards (e.g. steel from China.)

Huge Dust Plumes From China Cause Changes in Climate
By ROBERT LEE HOTZ

One tainted export from China can't be avoided in North America -- air.

An outpouring of dust layered with man-made sulfates, smog, industrial fumes, carbon grit and nitrates is crossing the Pacific Ocean on prevailing winds from booming Asian economies in plumes so vast they alter the climate. These rivers of polluted air can be wider than the Amazon and deeper than the Grand Canyon.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118470650996069354-buQPf_FL_nKirvopk__GzCmNOq8_20070818.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

[Dreamer Tatum]

88. I guess acid rain was just plain old vinegar from heaven nt

[ContinentalOp]

150. LOL, you must be new to DU!

"Manufacturing jobs are not holy. They are not inherently more noble than sales, marketing, or logistics jobs."

Hahahaha :rofl:

Don't you get it? Only union workers matter. People who work in the service industries are just scum. Below human. Never mind people who work in MARKETING. They should just kill themselves sez the great prophet Bill Hicks. :eyes:

[Fading Captain]

79. Are you a citizen first? Or a consumer first?

Don't tell me you support labor and the environment if you unnecessary garbage from a dollar store, where everything was made by workers who live in slave-like conditions, or where all the byproduct toxins were dumped into the river that supplies the town's drinking water.

Because you either BELIEVE in principles, or you don't.

And if you do, you do what you can to put your money where your mouth is.

Are you an American first? Or a consumer first?

[MadHound]

93. So do you buy all your food from local farmers

Or do you simply buy what's in the produce section this time of year?

Do you get your meat from local farmers, or do you simply grab a burger at the drive through and go?

So if I look to get the best value for my dollar, then I'm somehow not a citizen? Wow, that's a new one on me. Thanks for helping to prove my point.

[Fading Captain]

99. I shop the farmers markets all summer long

it's smart.
it keeps money local.
It keeps people off unemployment.
It keeps foreclosures down and property values up. And taxes down.
it's sustainable.

Buying whatever is most convenient and cheap is a good way to send our economy back to the third world.

[MadHound]

111. Dandy, but what do you do during the other three seasons?

Where are your clothes, electronics, the very computer that you're posting on all come from?

Take your "citizen or consumer" crap elsewhere, since you're obviously a hypocrite and not even living up to your own standards.

[Fading Captain]

133. Look, you don't give a shit about unions. Fine. You don't care about the environment. FIne

But don't call me a hypocrite, because I am doing what I can to put my money where my home is.

And if Americans don't wake up to the reality of their "me-first" attitude, we're fucked.

It's like Obama's bullshit tax plan.

Tax cuts for the middle class?
It's pandering.

We all have to pay. The rich. The middle class. Even the poor.
We ALL need to sacrifice to move our country forward.

[MadHound]

135. LOL, made baseless claims much?

I don't give a shit about unions? Really? How many workplaces have you organized? I've done it twice, lost my job over it once, was successful both times. Over two hundred and fifty workers now good union members. Fuck off with your broad generalizations and baseless, clueless claims about people like myself that you know nothing about.

I don't care about the environment? Really? How much gas do you use in those American made automobiles you buy? How much gas is burned getting that food to your table? I ride an Indian made scooter, a Bajaj, for my daily 34 mile round trip commute. Gets 100 mpg going 55-60 mph, and emits a hell of a lot less pollutant than what you're driving. And my food, I get it locally, grow much of it myself, get my meat from my farming neighbors, all of it organic by the by. Oh, and next summer, I'm putting in solar panels to light my house. What are you doing besides mouthing pious platitudes and making baseless claims? Oh, yeah, buying high pollutin' American iron and having your food shipped to you a thousand miles or more.

You are a hypocrite, thinking that you're sacrificing buying American iron, yet when the rubber meets the road, all your doing is salving your own conscience. Get back to me when you've received death threats for organizing a union, when you've actually shrunk your environmental footprint to a sustainable level.

[Fading Captain]

143. So you buy local. You buy with a conscience. Why the fuck are you arguing with me?

...

[Owl]

101. K&R!

[ContinentalOp]

151. I'm a human first.

And I haven't seen much evidence that Japanese autoworkers are suffering greatly. :shrug:

I sure have seen a ton of evidence that the Big 3 don't give one shit about our environment though.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

92. I don't think "buy American" types would have a computer to post on DU, or a TV to watch.

Unless they lovingly crafted the semiconductors in their basement workshop.

What about BMW Z3s made in South Carolina, etc.? Where does that fit in, don't American jobs make those cars?

[JeffreyWilliamson]

97. Perhaps American jobs do produce those cars...

But I've noticed that in threads where this has been pointed out regarding other brands, that it has been further pointed out that these companies don't necessarily use Labor members to produce those cars. That always seems to be the sticking point that no one has really explored. These threads don't appear to be so much about buying American, as much as they are about buying American produced by Labor. And the authors of these threads appear to be biased in this regard, as they seem to sport Labor avatars, or discuss their employment for the domestic automakers at some point during the conversation.

I've personally noticed that the quality of domestic automobiles has improved over the last 7 - 8 years, after suffering for a long time, (with the exception of trucks, which have maintained a constant high quality). When I get ready for my next new car, I plan on looking into several domestic models for this reason. I will also be looking into factors such as gas mileage, style, options, and ease of use. I prefer standard transmissions, and that will also likely be a sticking point when I go have a look.

Quality that rivals or is better than import models aside, it's hard to dismiss the incompetence of the leadership at the Big 3. How did they get themselves up to Capital Hill the other day? It would be easier to understand some of these "buy American" threads if the primary posters would take time to address the criticisms towards their companies' leadership and decisions, instead of imply that those with criticism, (some justifiable, some not), are anti-American, anti-Labor, or just put everyone who disagrees with them on Ignore. I don't remember which specific thread it was, but one of them almost appeared to be an attempt to draw out any posters who did not support Labor without question specifically for the intent of putting those people on Ignore.

There is a lot of history to show that Labor Unions in the US have helped the plight of American workers, not only those in Labor Unions but also those who are not. But the posters in some of these threads seem to have a "you are either pro-Labor or anti-American", my way or the highway thing going on. They aren't helping their case, just as the CEOs of the Big 3 didn't on Capital Hill when they attempted to explain that the government had to give them the money or else, but when asked couldn't explain what they would use it for or exactly how much they needed.

At the same time, people should probably understand that a lot of the sentiment in these threads is probably coming from a fear that if people don't purchase more American automobiles, or if the government doesn't give the automakers a bailout, that they may very well lose their jobs--jobs that they are very proud of, and in some cases have shared across several generations. While we shouldn't jump on the McCarthy bandwagon, we could probably do a little better at understanding that these posters, and many other people, are hurting right now.

[hfojvt]

102. you sound like you put being a capitalist ahead of being a progressive

"In fact that is what the core of capitalism is, the buyer making a rational decision on the known facts, and then getting the best bargain based on those facts."

The core of progressive, liberal or compassionate is something else. The "best bargain" or the $$$ are not supposed to come ahead of the human considerations if you are a progressive.

[Leftist78]

107. Don't bother

The op doesn't seem to see the correlation between one's political opinions and one's interactions with the world at large. To him, politics is apparently a kind of table discussion, and principals are not something to live in the world. Concepts like supporting Union jobs don't enter into the equation with someone like that. Conservatives apparently aren't the only ones believing that money trumps humanity.

[MadHound]

110. So, I should waste my hard earned money on a product that is of less value?

I don't know about you, but I don't make enough money to be able to afford that.

But if you want to talk about supporting unions, let me ask you, how many workplaces have you organized in your life? I've done it twice, how about you?

But hey, if you just want to make blind assumptions about my politics and my lifestyle, go for it. Who am I to stop somebody from making a fool of themselves.

[Leftist78]

113. I'm not telling you what to do with your money

Here in my household (not that it's any of your business) we gross about $60,000 a year. We have one non-union manufacturing worker and one dental assistant. If that seems extravagant to you then I feel sorry for you. We may not have much money, but we have our principals which apparently you do not.

As a matter of fact, I have been involved in a failed organization attempt that nearly cost me my job, and I'd do it again if the support was there at my plant. I don't know how things are where you live, but down here in SC organizing doesn't come as easy as in some places.

[MadHound]

116. What you're essentially telling me is that if I don't waste my money on a shoddy product

Then somehow I'm not a progressive or liberal. Whatever, but I'm more than willing to stack up my liberal creds against yours any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I did lose my job in one case, and nearly did so in the other, but was successful both times. And frankly I don't see that South Carolina would be any tougher than organizing in Missouri. After all, I got death threats, threats of physical violence, car damaged, oh, and lost my job:shrug:

You say you have principles, let me ask you, do you buy everything American? Food, clothes, hey, what about that computer you're typing on? Hypocrite much.

And speaking of principles, how can you live with yourself driving that pollution spewing piece of American iron? I'd much rather buy an Indian scooter and shrink my environmental footprint, but hey, that's just me:shrug:

Oh, and for your information, you're household is currently pulling in more than mine does, but hey, exercise your right to be a judgmental ass anyway.

[Leftist78]

132. I didn't say you're not progressive in views

but your actions say something different. If you don't see it that way, that's on you.

"And frankly I don't see that South Carolina would be any tougher than organizing in Missouri."

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'll make you a deal, I won't presume anything about Missouri and you do the same about South Carolina, but I'd be willing to wager there is no state in the U.S. more hostile to unions than South Carolina.

"You say you have principles, let me ask you, do you buy everything American? Food, clothes, hey, what about that computer you're typing on?"

I have a small garden of my own during summer, and I get all the vegetables that are available locally at our local farmers market during its run each year. My mother has chickens, so we get all our eggs from her. I also shop at a local grocery store that is well stocked with local produce and milk. Cloths are difficult, but I do what I can. Every pair of work boots I have ever owned has been made in the U.S. or they didn't go on my feet. See the point is, that when there are viable union, local, or American made options available, I buy those things. Some things are easier than others. Incidentally, cars are the easiest. Nobody is perfect, but making the effort goes a long way. Now take your assumptions about my hypocrisy elsewhere.

"And speaking of principles, how can you live with yourself driving that pollution spewing piece of American iron?"

We all have to do things that fit our lives. Sadly, public transit in my town is nonexistent, but we did move to an area in town that is 3 miles from my girlfriend's work, 7 from mine, and walking distance to downtown where we do a lot of our shopping and eating out. It's not perfect, but again it's a way of making our lives line up better with our ideals. Try it sometime, or don't, I don't really care either way.

[MadHound]

138. "We all have to do things that fit our lives." Thank you, I think that you're finally getting it

Judging people based on one single action that they take is stupid, foolish and insulting. We all do indeed have to do things that fit our lives, that includes the purchase we make. I by a foreign make automobile because it is the best value for my dollar. I raise a large garden, and preserve over a year's worth of food because it is the right thing to do. I ride an Indian made scooter because it is easy on gas and easy on pollutants. I get my meat from my farmer neighbors because it is the right thing to do(including that it is organic and cheap to buy in bulk). I'm putting in solar panels next spring because it makes sense in the long run, economically and environmentally.

Thus we do indeed do things that fit our lives, and strike that balance that is right for us. To judge people on one single action, to berate and insult people based one that one single action is wrong, foolish and insulting, and that is what the point of this thread is all about. Thanks for finally getting it.

As far as union organizing, like you said, we'll have to agree not to presume. But if we ever meet, hey, we can always compare scars;)

[hfojvt]

153. that's not what you said in your OP

about not judging somebody based on a single action.

"I don't care where people spend their money, nor what they spend it on. I exercise that liberal value of tolerance and understanding. I understand that money is tight for people, especially during this time of year, and exercise that patriotic sentiment of compassion. But most of all, I understand that thoroughly American concept of capitalism, of getting the best bargain for your money. Thus, I'm proud to be a liberal, progressive, patriotic American, and to hell with those who try to say otherwise."

What you say there, is that you recognize no principles that guide the purchasing choices of a progressive. The only valid principle is "total self indulgence" - the capitalist one. Saving money comes ahead of any other principle, like solidarity with other workers, concern for the environment, concern about animal cruelty, etc.

And you are willing to condemn people to hell based on a statement or two. "to hell with those who try to say otherwise." is an acceptable judgement, but "to hell with people who buy foreign cars" is "stupid, foolish, and insulting."

[MadHound]

164. Then apparently you simply have a problem with either A: Reading Comprehension

Or B: Being deliberately obtuse in order to further engage in a flamewar. Either way, it's become exceedingly apparent that trying to carry on this discussion with you is pointless. If, after reading through this entire thread, you don't get what myself and others are trying to say, then further discussion will not change that.

[hfojvt]

176. that's kinda funny too

you start a thread insulting some DUers in pretty harsh language and I am the one who wants to further engage in a flamewar.

Speaking of reading comprehension, or writing for meaning

"Either way, it's become exceedingly apparent that trying to carry on this discussion with you is pointless."

Carry on this discussion? You may not have noticed, but this is your first reply to me. Before you write off the possibility of "further" discussion, you might try a little discussion in the first place.

[Omaha Steve]

112. Extended warranty

Gets you way past 70,000 miles on a USA made car.

[MadHound]

114. No need when my '87 Toyota has a quarter million miles on it and still going

As is my '98 Honda with 150,000. Haven't had to take either in except for regular maintenance items. Never have bought an extended warranty, never have needed one since I invest in quality from the beginning.

[NNN0LHI]

127. What models of Toyota and Honda did you have to only go in for regular maintenance items?

And did you purchase them new?

Don

[MadHound]

139. A 1987 Toyota Corrola, a 1998 Honda Civic

I bought both new, both still run fine, though I don't take the Toyo out that much anymore, it's becoming more of collectors item, joining my other collected iron, a '49 Desoto, a '51 Chevy truck and a '67 Ford LTD. However I still love the Toyo in the snow, it's saved my ass from a crash more than once with it's great snow handling.

[NNN0LHI]

155. Your 1998 Honda Civic appears to be one of the most recalled vehicles of its kind

But you said above you only brought it in for regular maintenance items? And you said you really liked it?

Something is bad wrong with what you are claiming.

Don

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/1998/honda/civic/recalls/index.html

Used 1998 Honda Civic Recalls
Recall ID # 06E032000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: APR 18, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 845

Recall Date:
APR 18, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN EAGLE EYES AND SONAR HEADLIGHTS AND CORNER LIGHTS SOLD AS AFTERMARKET FOR USE ON 1988-2005 HONDA CIVIC, 1990-2005 HONDA ACCORD, AND 1990-2001 ACURA INTEGRA PASSENGER VEHICLES LISTED ABOVE. HEADLIGHTS AND CORNER LIGHTS THAT ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT WARNING.


Remedy:
TOM MOTORSPORT WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER REIMBURSEMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF NONCOMPLIANT LIGHTS. THE RECALL BEGAN APRIL 17, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT TOM MOTORSPORT AT 626-968-4007.


Potential Units Affected:
845


Notes:
TOM MOTORSPORT, INC.
Recall ID # 06E023000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING:HEADLIGHTS - Get Details
Recall Date: MAR 13, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING:HEADLIGHTS
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 292000

Recall Date:
MAR 13, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN ANZO COMBINATION HEADLAMP ASSEMBLIES SOLD AS REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES. SOME COMBINATION LAMPS ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS WHICH FAIL TO CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, "LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.¿


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH.


Remedy:
ANZO WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND REPLACE THE HEADLAMPS FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL BEGAN MAY 9, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT ANZO USA AT 909-468-3688.


Potential Units Affected:
292000


Notes:
ANZO USA, INC.
Recall ID # 07V512000 - FUEL SYSTEM, OTHER:STORAGE:TANK ASSEMBLY - Get Details
Recall Date: NOV 01, 2007
Component: FUEL SYSTEM, OTHER:STORAGE:TANK ASSEMBLY
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 6545

Recall Date:
NOV 01, 2007


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
ON CERTAIN COMPRESSED NATURAL GAS (CNG) VEHICLES, IN THE EVENT OF A SEVERE INTERIOR FIRE IN THE AREA OF THE REAR SEAT, THE CNG TANK MAY BE HEATED UNEVENLY, PREVENTING THE PRESSURE RELIEF DEVICE FROM VENTING THE CONTENTS OF THE TANK AS DESIGNED.


Consequence:
THIS COULD RESULT IN A TANK RUPTURE, EXPLOSION, AND EJECTION OF THE TANK FROM THE VEHICLE.


Remedy:
DEALERS WILL INSTALL A HEAT INSULATOR MATERIAL TO THE REAR SEAT BACK. AN INTERIM OWNER LETTER WAS MAILED TO OWNERS BEGINNING NOVEMBER 26, 2007. WHEN PARTS ARE AVAILABLE, OWNERS WILL BE RENOTIFIED ASKING THEM TO BRING IN THEIR VEHICLE FOR REPAIR. OWNERS MAY CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009.


Potential Units Affected:
6545


Notes:
HONDA (AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.) Q63
Recall ID # 06E026000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: MAR 23, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 61944

Recall Date:
MAR 23, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN PRO-A MOTORS CORNER LAMPS, TURN SIGNALS, AND HEADLIGHTS SOLD AS REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES LISTED ABOVE. SOME COMBINATION LAMPS THAT ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT WARNING.


Remedy:
PRO-A MOTORS WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER TO REPURCHASE THE LAMPS. THE RECALL BEGAN ON APRIL 3, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT PRO-A MOTORS AT 323-838-2988.


Potential Units Affected:
61944


Notes:
PRO-A MOTORS, INC.
Recall ID # 06E064000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: JUL 17, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 4029

Recall Date:
JUL 17, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN TRADESONIC COMBINATION LAMPS SOLD AS REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON THE ABOVE LISTED PASSENGER VEHICLES. COMBINATION LAMPS NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.


Consequence:
LACK OF AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS IN THE LAMPS WILL DECREASE LIGHTING VISIBILITY TO OTHER DRIVERS AND MAY POSSIBLY RESULT IN A VEHICLE CRASH.


Remedy:
TRADESONIC WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND REPLACE THE LAMPS FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING JULY 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT TRADESONIC AT 626-934-8884.


Potential Units Affected:
4029


Notes:
TRADESONIC
Recall ID # 06E025000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING:HEADLIGHTS - Get Details
Recall Date: MAR 21, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING:HEADLIGHTS
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 1450

Recall Date:
MAR 21, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN POLI-AUTO COMBINATION HEADLAMP ASSEMBLIES, P/NOS. 11-728, 11-728D, 11-710, 11-419, 11-713, 11-703, 11-704, 11-708P, 11-735, 11-725, 11-726, 11-716 (P&C), 11-721-1, 11-733, 11-729, 11-730, AND 11-732, SOLD AS REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES. SOME COMBINATION LAMPS THAT ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, ¿LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.¿


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT WARNING.


Remedy:
POLI-AUTO WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER TO REPURCHASE THE HEADLAMPS AT ITS ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING APRIL 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT POLI-AUTO AT 305-477-1356.


Potential Units Affected:
1450


Notes:
POLI-AUTO, INC.
Recall ID # 97V193000 - AIR BAGS:FRONTAL - Get Details
Recall Date: NOV 01, 1997
Component: AIR BAGS:FRONTAL
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 9558

Recall Date:
NOV 01, 1997


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER VEHICLES. THE FRONT PASSENGER AIR BAG MODULES HAVE BEEN IMPROPERLY ASSEMBLED. THE CLOTH FLAPS COVERING THE FOLDED AIR BAG MAY HAVE BEEN TUCKED IN TOO FAR.


Consequence:
THIS CONDITION COULD PREVENT PROPER DEPLOYMENT OF THE AIR BAG. IN A CRASH, AN IMPROPER AIR BAG DEPLOYMENT COULD INCREASE THE RISK OF INJURY TO A FRONT SEAT PASSENGER.


Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPAIR THE FRONT PASSENGER'S AIR BAG MODULE TO PREVENT THIS PROBLEM FROM OCCURRING.


Potential Units Affected:
9558


Notes:
AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
Recall ID # 99E015000 - UNKNOWN OR OTHER - Get Details
Recall Date: MAY 10, 1999
Component: UNKNOWN OR OTHER
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 943005

Recall Date:
MAY 10, 1999


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
EQUIPMENT DESCRIPTION: ACCESSORY DRIVER-SIDE FLOOR MATS USED IN 1996-1998 HONDA CIVIC VEHICLES. DUE TO THE SHAPE OF THE FLOOR ON THESE VEHICLES, A MISPOSITIONED FLOOR MAT COULD INTERFERE WITH THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL.


Consequence:
THE FLOOR MAT COULD PREVENT THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL FROM RETURNING TO THE IDLE POSITION.


Remedy:
IF A CUSTOMER HAS A GENUINE HONDA DRIVER-SIDE FLOOR MAT, DEALERS WILL INSTALL A POSITIVE FLOOR MAT RETENTION SYSTEM CONSISTING OF A GROMMET IN THE FLOOR MAT AND A PIN BRACKET IN THE CAR.


Potential Units Affected:
943005


Notes:
AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
Recall ID # 08E050000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING:HEADLIGHTS - Get Details
Recall Date: AUG 11, 2008
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING:HEADLIGHTS
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 1921

Recall Date:
AUG 11, 2008


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
K2 MOTOR IS RECALLING 1,921 AFTERMARKET HEADLAMPS OF VARIOUS MODELS SOLD FOR USE ON THE ABOVE LISTED VEHICLES. THESE HEADLAMPS ARE MISSING THE AMBER SIDE REFLEX REFLECTOR WHICH FAILS TO CONFORM WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, "LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT."


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER SIDE REFLEX REFLECTORS, THE LIGHTING VISIBILITY MAY BE AFFECTED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH.


Remedy:
K2 MOTOR WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER A FULL REFUND. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING SEPTEMBER 2008. OWNERS MAY CONTACT K2 MOTOR AT 1-909-839-2992.


Potential Units Affected:
1921


Notes:
K2 MOTOR CORPORATION
Recall ID # 06E040000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: MAY 15, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 1648

Recall Date:
MAY 15, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN E SPEED RACING COMBINATION LAMPS SOLD AS REPLACEMENT EQUIPMENT FOR USE ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES LISTED ABOVE. SOME COMBINATION LAMPS THAT ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT WARNING.


Remedy:
E SPEED RACING WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER TO REPURCHASE THE LAMPS. THE RECALL BEGAN MAY 10, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT E SPEED RACING 909-923-3636.


Potential Units Affected:
1648


Notes:
E SPEED RACING
Recall ID # 06E060000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: JUN 29, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 87745

Recall Date:
JUN 29, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN AAI MOTORSPORTS COMBINATION LAMPS SOLD AS REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON THE ABOVE LIST PASSENGER VEHICLES. COMBINATION LAMPS NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, ¿LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.¿


Consequence:
LACK OF AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS IN THE LAMPS WILL DECREASE LIGHTING VISIBILITY TO OTHER DRIVERS AND MAY POSSIBLY RESULT IN A VEHICLE CRASH


Remedy:
AAI MOTORSPORTS WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND REPLACE THE LAMPS FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON AUGUST 1, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT AAI MOTORSPORTS AT 909-923-9188.


Potential Units Affected:
87745


Notes:
AAI MOTORSPORTS USA, LLC
Recall ID # 06E044000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: MAY 22, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 1215

Recall Date:
MAY 22, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN J & A AUTO ACCESSORIES COMBINATION HEADLAMPS SOLD AS REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON THE ABOVE LISTED PASSENGER VEHICLES. SOME COMBINATION LAMPS THAT ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT WARNING.


Remedy:
J & A AUTO ACCESSORIES WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND OFFER TO REPURCHASE THE HEADLAMPS. THE RECALL BEGAN ON JULY 10, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT J & A AUTO ACCESSORIES AT 310-327-4981.


Potential Units Affected:
1215


Notes:
J & A AUTO ACCESSORIES
Recall ID # 02V120000 - ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH - Get Details
Recall Date: MAY 16, 2002
Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 1000000

Recall Date:
MAY 16, 2002


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
ON CERTAIN SEDANS, COUPES, HATCHBACKS, AND SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES, ELECTRICAL CONTACTS IN THE IGNITION SWITCH CAN DEGRADE DUE TO THE HIGH ELECTRICAL CURRENT PASSING THROUGH THE SWITCH WHEN THE VEHICLE IS STARTED.


Consequence:
WORN CONTACTS COULD CAUSE THE ENGINE TO STALL WITHOUT WARNING, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.


Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE IGNITION SWITCH. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN JUNE 14, 2002. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009 OR ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238.


Potential Units Affected:
1000000


Notes:
AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
Recall ID # 06E038000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: MAY 08, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 724

Recall Date:
MAY 08, 2006


Model Affected:
1998 HONDA CIVIC


Summary:
CERTAIN ALFAOTTO COMBINATION HEADLAMPS SOLD AS REPLACEMENT LAMPS FOR USE ON THE ABOVE LISTED PASSENGER VEHICLES. SOME COMBINATION LAMPS THAT ARE NOT EQUIPPED WITH AMBER SIDE REFLECTORS FAIL TO CONFORM TO FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARD NO. 108, LAMPS, REFLECTIVE DEVICES, AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.


Consequence:
WITHOUT THE AMBER REFLECTORS, THE VEHICLE WILL BE POORLY ILLUMINATED, POSSIBLY RESULTING IN A VEHICLE CRASH WITHOUT WARNING.


Remedy:
ALFAOTTO WILL NOTIFY OWNERS AND REPLACE THE HEADLAMPS FREE OF CHARGE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON MAY 10, 2006. OWNERS MAY CONTACT ALFAOTTO AT 626-656-2992 OR VISIT THEIR WEBSITE AT WWW.ALFAOTTO.COM.


Potential Units Affected:
724


Notes:
ALFAOTTO AUTO ACCESSORIES
Recall ID # 06E049000 - EXTERIOR LIGHTING - Get Details
Recall Date: MAY 24, 2006
Component: EXTERIOR LIGHTING
Model Affected: CIVIC
Potential Units Affected: 27176

[MadHound]

168. Hmm, that's interesting, the vast majority of those seem to deal with amber refletors

Which we have. I found the one about compressed natural gas interesting, and yes, potentially lethal. The only real dangerous one in that group looks to be the excessive electrical current passing through the ignition system. And I find it amusing that you're trying to push the number count upwards by including the recalls on replacement parts, not OEM that came with the car.

But frankly, the only recall notice that I've had is on the floor mats, about six months after I got the vehicle. My wife and I thought it was rather funny that we'd be getting a recall notice on floor mats. Or perhaps more of a sign of Honda's concern with quality, when after all, Ford's were getting recalled for stuck throttles, loosening lug nuts, and for exploding upon impact(OK, I admit, that last one came out in 2001 9 years after the problem first started occurring) But hey, if you really want to try and make the case that missing amber reflectors and sliding floor mats are in the same league, much less the same ball park as stuck throttles and exploding gas tanks, by all means, go for it. Just don't expect people to take you seriously.

Oh, and do you really want me to get into the recalls surrounding Chevy and Chrysler products? No, I didn't think so.

But the one I found most amusing was the problem that most of the time happened when the car was parked, engine fire due to faulty cruise control switch. That recall involve nearly 6 million vehicles ranging from the years 1994-2002, the fifth largest recall in history.

Nice try, but really now, trying to compare recalls over reflectors vs recalls over engine fires is rather disingenuous of you. Still and all though, rather amusing.

[NNN0LHI]

172. You are the one who stated as fact that your vehicle only went in for regular scheduled maintenance

Apparently after thinking about it for a while and after seeing what I posrted you realize that I know your claim was untrue i? And you have the nerve to call me disingenuous. Unbelievable. I have never witnessed such gall.

And all those OEM parts that were recalled had to be licenced by Honda to produced them. Otherwise they wouldn't be on this list. So all these recalls are in fact Honda's problem.

You can sure bet I am wondering about how many many other occurrences you have had to bring your cars in for unscheduled repairs that may have have just slipped your mind.

Don

[MadHound]

175. Oh puhleeze Vulcan, get a grip

Let's see, take it in for oil changes, brakes, oh, and to get a new floor mat. Hmmm, I think you can understand why that last one slipped my mind, since it wasn't actually work done on the actual engine or body.

But then again, no, perhaps you don't understand. It looks more like you are so desperate to make your point that you seize upon anything to try to get it across.

So are you honestly comparing getting a new floor mat to getting the tranny replaced? To having the car catch on fire?

Give it up dude, you're becoming so involved in your little games that you've lost sight of reality.

[NNN0LHI]

178. You already forgot the air bag and ignition problems that you had to bring your Honda junk in for?

Thats what I figured. Selective memory.

Don

[MadHound]

180. Umm, I didn't have to bring in my car for an air bag or ignition problem

Where do you get that I did? The air bag problem only affected 9600 vehicles, and if you read for comprehension, 1997 models. Umm, my Honda is a '98 model:shrug:

But the ignition recall, gee, why didn't you mention that it affected 1999 models? I'll write it off as a reading comprehension problem on your part, though some would say that you're being disingenuous to serve your own ends.<http://www.hondaproblems.com/recalls/Civic/1999/>

Any other feet you would care to stick in your mouth, or have you had enough of your ass handed to you by now?

[NNN0LHI]

181. The roll out for your 1998 model was September 1997. All the auto makers do that

That is why the airbag recall for your 1998 Honda was in November 1997.

And the ignition problem? You just happened to miss that one too?

What I don't understand is why you felt the need to lie about this to begin with? Soon as I called you on it you all of a sudden remembered about the floor mats that were causing your cars throttle to stick open because of a design flaw you already stated wasn't there.

But you continue to dissemble and prevaricate like I didn't catch you lying at least once in this thread already.

And maybe its just me but once I catch someone lying I tend not to believe much of what they say after that.

And your Honda had problems with the ignition in the 1998 and 1999 model years. Probably more.

Yours wasn't recalled for it until MAY 16, 2002. See:

http://www.internetautoguide.com/auto-recalls/09-int/1998/honda/civic/index.html

MAY 16, 2002 | Recall ID# 17151 Show Details

MAY 16, 2002 | Recall ID# 17151 Hide Details


Recall Reason ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH
Recall Date MAY 16, 2002
Model Affected CIVIC
Potential Units Affected 1000000


Recall Summary
ON CERTAIN SEDANS, COUPES, HATCHBACKS, AND SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES, ELECTRICAL CONTACTS IN THE IGNITION SWITCH CAN DEGRADE DUE TO THE HIGH ELECTRICAL CURRENT PASSING THROUGH THE SWITCH WHEN THE VEHICLE IS STARTED.


Consequence
WORN CONTACTS COULD CAUSE THE ENGINE TO STALL WITHOUT WARNING, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.


Remedy
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE IGNITION SWITCH. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN JUNE 14, 2002. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009 OR ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238.


Notes
AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.




All those units of your model and year Honda were recalled in May of 2002 and you are telling me yours wasn't one of them? It must have been a magic one?

See why I tend not to believe people after catching them in one lie?

Having fun are you?

Don

[JeffreyWilliamson]

184. "Lie" seems a little strong...

See why I tend not to believe people after catching them in one lie?

Okay, this one strikes me as a little over the top. Sorry to insert myself here guys, but here's what I mean.

Until Hurricane Ike washed out my 1995 Honda Accord and ruined it, besides replacing the timing belt and regular maintenance, it was a great, reliable car and cost very little to keep going. Aside from being an automatic, (which I can't stand), it was probably the best car I have ever owned.

Here's what I just found on that website regarding my car's model and year:

http://www.internetautoguide.com/auto-recalls/09-int/1995/honda/accord/index.html

OCT 04, 1996 | Recall ID# 9577 Hide Details

Recall Reason AIR BAGS
Recall Date OCT 04, 1996
Model Affected ACCORD
Potential Units Affected 164139

Recall Summary
THE SUPPLEMENTAL RESTRAINT SYSTEM (SRS) ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNIT CAN CAUSE THE AIR BAG TO DEPLOY UNEXPECTEDLY.

Consequence
THIS TYPE OF UNANTICIPATED AIR BAG DEPLOYMENT COULD RESULT IN ABRASION TO THE HANDS, ARMS, OR FACE OF A PROPERLY-POSITIONED FRONT SEAT OCCUPANT, OR COULD CAUSE MORE SERIOUS INJURY TO AN OUT-OF-POSITION OCCUPANT.

Remedy
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE SRS ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNIT IN THE AIR BAG SYSTEM.

Notes
AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.

Oops, I never knew about that recall, and thus never took my Accord in to have the air bag control replaced. The air bag system never deployed by itself, and thus I never thought there was a problem.

Does that make me a liar, too? Earlier in this post I stated that my 1995 Honda Accord required nothing more than regular maintenance, aside from replacing the timing belt.

[MadHound]

194. You're so far gone that you're not even reading the facts that you're posting

On the airbag issue, did you catch the figure that only 9558 models were recalled? Out of 860,471 cars sold. Hmmm, let's see, that means that .01% of Honda cars were sold. Odds were way against my Honda having a bum airbag, so you can quit trying to claim that I'm lying on that one.

As far as the ignition goes, look at the wording of the recall: "ON CERTAIN SEDANS, COUPES, HATCHBACKS, AND SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES" Get that key word? CERTAIN

Over the four model years covered, Honda sold a total of 4.18 million vehicles in the US. Of those 4.18 million vehicles, 1 million were recalled for the ignition problem. And please, before you go off half cocked and totally stupid, reread your own post and note that this recall affected "CERTAIN SEDANS, COUPES, HATCHBACKS, AND SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES" Not just Civics, but models across the Honda spectrum. That means that my particular model had approximately a 1 in 4 chance of having a bum ignition. To further complicate matters on your part, Civics came in different models and styles themselves, depending on the engine, option package, etc. Gee, dumbass, that seems like fairly good odds that I didn't get a bum ignition switch now doesn't it.

You keep trying to pin the word lie on me, but the fact of the matter is you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and your own facts, figures and links are backing up MY position.

But hey, if you want to keep on playing this game, keep on making yourself look like a jackass, go for it. It's not face that has egg on it, it's yours, and all that you're doing everytime you respond is making yourself look more and more foolish, and more and more like a jackass.

[JerseygirlCT]

115. I'm sorry, but I agree with you - particularly about the cars

It's not my job to overcome decades of crappy US cars, leading to their bad reps. If they're indeed building better cars now, they're going to have to do the work to start convincing people that's the case. It's not my job to take the chance. We've made that mistake a couple of times, and it cost us. Not likely to jump again anytime soon.

I do try to avoid anything made in China. Because it's usually crap, and because it's usually made under pretty awful conditions. So I do look at clothing labels, for example.

But really... do we need to tear into one another? Is there not room for individual choices and civil discussion about them?

[MadHound]

118. Sorry if you don't like the tone of the OP, frankly I thought I was being fairly mild

Especially considering I've had my ass ripped a new one over and over the past few weeks by the "Buy America" crowd around here. Sorry if I offended, but I was trying to make a point and vent some steam.

[JerseygirlCT]

123. No, I was totally agreeing with you!

And saying "sorry" to all those who seem to like to dump on people lately about the idea that they might not want to throw away thousands just to be sure they pass "Buy American" muster!

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[MadHound]

124. My bad then, and thanks for your support

Combination of lots of homework and getting over a horrible cold. Peace:hi:

[JerseygirlCT]

126. No problem - I worded that badly!

:hi:

[npk]

134. It all boils down to Capitalism

The reason most companies in this country have their goods made in places like China is because the cost of manufacturing in this country is too high, cuts into profits. The cost of living is so high in this country, compared to most other countries around the world, that US companies would have to pay a more competitive wage, i.e. a higher wage to workers in this country, especially in parts of this country were the Union controls labor. The U.S. companies would rather save money with overseas manufacturing where the cost of living is not as high and there is no union to enforce higher wages. U.S companies have shipped those manufacturing jobs overseas where they can pay workers less, and shed overhead costs, and increase profits, and that has resulted, in part, to the state our economy is in. This country is loosing more and more high paying jobs, because they are being shipped overseas. Most of the jobs that are being added in this country are low paying jobs, so the employment numbers that suggest we are adding more jobs, thus improving the economy, are very misleading. It's the greed of companies and the exploitation of capitalism that has led to this mess. Soon there want be any more "true American made goods" left to purchase. We have become a country of imports, and fewer and fewer exports.

[Deja Q]

162. Henry Ford was a capitalist too. And he knew how to make a stable company.

Look him up.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/btford.html

http://inventors.about.com/od/fstartinventors/a/HenryFord.htm

And in ways, unions have gotten out of hand, but at some point nobody will be able to AFFORD a damn thing if it's all about reintroducing slave wages. As we've currently seen and heard, even upper class luxury firms are suffering.

[Kalyke]

136. If American cars are such crap, why is my husband trying to pay

down his foreign piece of crap to trade it in on a Ford (like he had before) because the foreign piece of crap breaks down every three months and the Ford he had never did?

God, I wish people would come out of 1988.

[MadHound]

141. I don't know, I'm not your husband, go ask him.

Meanwhile, if you're going to continue to play this anecdotal bullshit, tell me why cops are abandoning Ford Crown Vics in droves? Oh, yeah, that's right, because they continue to blow up, killing and injuring cops. One would think that Ford would have learned this lesson in the seventies with the Pinto, but know, I guess that had to roll it out again for the new millennium.

[ContinentalOp]

145. What really pisses me off is that the same people who think buying a foreign car is anti-union...

anti-worker, and unamerican, seem to have no regard for people who aren't lucky enough to belong to a union. And they'll turn around and blast entire industries with ease. Those damn evil bastards who work in marketing, or the entertainment industry, or as trial lawyers, or god forbid, work for a corporation like...gasp.. DISNEY!? Evil of evils!

If you don't work for the almighty god of MANUFACTURING you somehow are not worthy of consideration.

[Waiting For Everyman]

147. My '96 bought new Malibu has been great at 250K miles.

It doesn't even get routine maintenance from me because I've been broke that long.

The Subaru I traded in for it on the other hand, was a continual and awful lemon for 5 years.

[NNN0LHI]

174. My neighbor across the street from me own two newer Nissans that the hoods are up all the time

I asked him what was up and he says the Check Engine Light comes on every couple of months on them and the dealer keeps charging him over three hundred dollars to turn off every time he brings one of them in.

He thought he got a great deal when he bought them. He was really bragging them up for a while. Not so much any more.

He has a For Sale sign on one of them.

Don

[madmom]

152. Yeah but y'all know if you shop at walmart you're the devil incarnate!

[louis c]

154. It's where not wear

spell check won't catch that mistake, but I'm sure I get your point.

I own two Mercury's and they are great cars. This "American made is crap" stuff is baloney.

Maybe Germany nad Japan can make our tanks for us too. We wouldn't want shoddy military equipment.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

[MadHound]

170. Thank you spelling Nazi!

And while you may disagree with me based on your own anecdotal experiences, the fact of the matter is that you won't find one objective car critic or expert who will state that American cars have kept up with or exceeded most foreign makes over the sweep of the past thirty years. At best, what they'll say is that American cars have finally started to catch up to the competition, in certain models, over the past eight years, and possibly even a few models exceeded the foreign competition. But overall, they will tell you that over the past thirty years American car companies have lagged far, far behind.

Thanks, I think I'll go with objective expert opinions than the anecdotal evidence of anonymous internet posters.

[Edweird]

171. Well, that settles it. Since bananas come from someplace else, we don't need living wage jobs.

I mean, it's all so crystal clear. Blue collar jobs that can pay the mortgage and put your kids through school and provide benefits? Pshaw! Let's outsource and bring in illegals to do those jobs. I mean, after all we import some strawberries from somewhere! We'll just be grateful to fight for 50 minimum wage no benefit fast food jobs 500 at a time. Now THAT'S what I call patriotism! Seriously. Since somebody somewhere else made some component of the computer I'm using, none of us should have a decent standard of living. How perfectly sensible and logical.

:sarcasm:

[Midwestern Democrat]

173. Self-delete

[BlooInBloo]

186. I can't imagine buying an American-designed car.

[Romulox]

189. That's because you're a "progressive"! nt

[BlooInBloo]

190. It is? Fascinating.

[cornermouse]

191. I look for American on the label of the food I plan to eat.

I'm tired of being poisoned by China. Ditto on plastic food storage containers. Lest there is a misunderstanding, if I plan to put it in my mouth and it says made in China or distributed by __________, I put it back on the shelf.

Cars? A lot of our roads are falling apart. Damage from the road or from rocks picked up by the tires of the car in front of you is a consideration. Cost of gas is also a consideration and a reason for buying foreign cars. If American cars had the same mpg's I would buy American; preferably Ford.

[ogneopasno]

200. I buy American unless there is no alternative. I read the label of every damn thing I buy.

I don't know why people think they can't do that.

Everyone should take a day and look at the label of everything they're wearing, eating and using. There'd be some surprises.

[Romulox]

202. I stopped caring about "buying American" when > 50% of the cars on the road were foreign makes

I also support a massive increase in H1B visas.

Manufacturing shouldn't be the only industry sacrificed to the "global economy"; white collar workers should have to suffer too. :hi: