I Think A Lot Of You Are Missing A Key Ingredient In This Wal-Mart Story

[THUNDER HANDS]

I think a lot of people here assume that the people who were pushing and shoving to get into the Wal-Mart that killed one of the workers there were SUV-driving, upper-middle class white republicans with Bush stickers on their hummers and gun racks on the back of their pick up trucks.

Nothing could be further from the truth.


Valley Stream, NY is a heavily populated minority community, and most of the people who were in line at the Wal Mart store were lower-income black and hispanic people, most likely Democrats and most-assuredly Obama supporters.

What does that have to do with anything? Nothing at all. Except to say that you might be assuming that liberals, or Democrats, would or should never shop at Wal-Mart, but the fact is a lot of them do, especially minorities.

And it was almost all minorities who were involved in the mob that took over that store early yesterday morning.

The guy who was killed was a minority.

I don't think the people who were on line yesterday had a herd mentality. I don't think they consume just to consume and spend all their excess cash. They're hard-working people, probably not making much more than the people who work at Wal-Mart.

They line up in the early morning hours because that extra few dollars they can save on a christmas present for a loved one may mean they can afford to buy some extra food throughout the week, or afford to keep paying their rent. Sure, you might consider it misplaced priorities, buying a gift when you don't have much money, but poor people tend to be generous when it comes to others, and what they were buying most-likely wasn't for themselves, but for someone they loved.

You can hate Wal-Mart all you want, and I'm not in any way defending that retched company. I hate it with all my soul. But the people who shop there are people like you and me, struggling Americans who will have a hard time making ends meet and still want to spread some joy this Christmas.

I'm just asking you think about who these people were before you judge all of them. They were most likely behind you on line at the voting booth three weeks ago voting for the same guy you were.

[DainBramaged]

1. A dollar saved is not worth the death of a single person

[Skittles]

5. thank you

their behaviour is sickening no matter what the circumstances

[jobycom]

22. Could you expand on how that's relevant to the OP?

I just reread it, and I don't see him saying what you say he said.

[ProfessorGAC]

73. I Was Going To Ask The Same Thing, Jobycom

I don't get it either. I was hoping Dain would reply, because i don't quite understand how it applies.
The Professor

[Tigress DEM]

136. You are right, but the OP has a good point too.

WE need to realize that the people involved may well have been kind, caring individuals for the most part and find a way to hold those responsible for their choice to be there without deciding it's another evil axis or something.

When I was a kid, parents knew if you go round with a gang and someone does something stupid or God forbid gets shot, guess what? It's going to be too late to tell you, "Don't fuck up your life by being in a gang." Same principle. Need alternatives and strong words/actions backed by compassion for those involved.

WE HAVE to become a nation where DEATH BY SHOPPING is NOT OK, but it may require a scalpel instead of a sledge hammer to remove the rot.

[liberalhistorian]

183. Nobody who steps over a dead man after

a door has been broken down, and who then goes right on with shopping, and then gets irate and continues to shop after being told of the death and told to leave because of it, is a "kind and caring" individual. That's bullshit.

[Two Americas]

151. that isn't what caused it

When you are in the middle of a crowd, and a stampede starts, it is completely irrelevant what your ideas are, what your beliefs are, how smart you are, or what your motivations or morals may be. You move with the herd or you die, and the herd is upon you in a fraction of a second. You stay on your feet if you can, or your life is at serious risk. It all happens so quickly, that there is absolutely no time to think it through. When people are packed tightly together, and one person - one person - panics, the whole crowd panics - in an instant.

It is entirely irrelevant why the crowd formed, or what sort of people are in the crowd. It is disgusting that people here in these discussions are implying that this was caused because the crowd was composed of a certain sort of people.

In the situation I survived, the people in the front of the march, packed into a narrow street, were viciously attacked by the police, and had damned good reason to panic and flee for their lives. The problem is that there was no where to run, and the whole crowd panicked. Everyone in the crowd had damned good reason to panic - their lives were at risk. I was with two comrades, and we were all young and strong. We locked arms and moved quickly with the panicking crowd, trying as hard as we could to avoid stepping on the many who had fallen. We were being continually pressured from behind us by amazing force and jostled. At some point in the run, each of us fell more than once, and was then dragged and lifted back up to our feet by the other two. Had two of us gone down at the same time, we may not have survived. As it was, we were badly bruised and bloody.

You had better believe that assholes talking about it later blamed the victims - "what were they doing marching anyway, the idiots? You would never catch me doing anything so stupid. I blame them!" To listen to that contemptuous and hateful blame the victims talk right after surviving that experience is to stare into the blackest depths of human depravity, in my opinion, and it is sickening to see some of the comments here.

It takes some sort of profound lack of empathy for one's fellow human beings to blame the people caught up in a crowd stampede.

[True_Blue]

180. I was in the middle of a stampede once

The force is overwhelming! The people behind you are pushing you forward and shoving you into the people in front of you. I had absolutely no control over where I was going. There is no where you can go except where the crowd is pushing you. I was terrified that I was going to be knocked down and trampled to death. You really can't understand the force of a stampede until you're in the middle of one.

[amyrose2712]

214. Totally agree....I have been to many a concert

in the front row with a general admission crowd. Granted, they are nothing like The Who concerts in which people were trampled but when the mosh pit starts you better really secure your footing, and make sure you move with the crowd or you can get "a boot to the head". I went to Woodstock 94, we were very close to the front during Henry Rollins band, when not only a mosh pit of 100s at a time broke out, a few assholes decided to stretch a tarp over a large portion of the crowd(of which I was a part of) and decided to start moshing and running on the top. Which meant they were running our heads, under a tarp in the pouring rain, surround by 450,000 other raving moshing lunatics. I'll tell you what you had better move or you are done for. I surely understand the "herd/mob mentality", however, I don't get the anger and continued shopping after being part of a killing, no matter how it occurred.

[dkf]

2. I wondered about something kinda along those lines...

Do most of these shoppers go all crazy because they love a good bargain? Or is it because this is the only way they would be able to get whatever they are buying.

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. well, the crap the wal-mart sells can be found at any regular store

but between the hours of 5 and 11 the prices on black friday are usually much lower, sometimes 10's to 100's less.

For a lot of people, that's a HUGE difference. Someone who would get on line at midnight for a $400 tv would never get on line at midnight for a $600 or $700 tv.

[rebel with a cause]

64. It is not only Wal-Mart where this craziness happens either.

Day before yesterday the people started lining up at Best Buy here a full 24 hours (7 a.m.) before the sale began. By noon there were 14 people in line for the next day's sale. Who knows how many were there by the time the doors opened the next morning. I didn't get out yesterday.

[SammyWinstonJack]

75. I understand that but still it's no reason to push and shove their way into a store, is it?

That's the part I don't understand. :shrug:

[alarimer]

92. It's Wal-Mart's fault for only stocking a handful of the bargains.

Typically, they will only stock 3-4 of the really cheap stuff in any store. This causes people to do this kind of thing. Fuck Wal-Mart. They are the worst fucking company on the planet and I hope they get sued to death by the family of this worker. I hope they go bankrupt.

[wtmusic]

4. "poor people tend to be generous when it comes to others"

IMO there's no correlation between income/generosity.

The people in line didn't have a herd mentality - they were thinking about no one but themselves, and getting what they wanted first. I'd be surprised if any of them voted.

[goclark]

17. That is a pretty broad brush you are painting

the shoppers with ~ I would believe that many voted.

I have seen the people that shop at my local Wal Mart go into the store and how happy they are with the prices.

I don't shop there because I don't like their politics or policies but that is IMO.

[Raschel]

23. Good Answer!

[Two Americas]

49. yes there is

Studies have been done on this.

You must not have much experience in demonstrations or marches. "Herd mentality" is a very real, and deadly thing. It can happen quite suddenly, and no one is immune. It is no reflection on the character, morals, or intelligence of the people involved.

[kas125]

61. "herd mentality is a real thing." I was one of the women who went to

a Palin rally to protest the war. Once those men saw our banner, they were determined to take it from us. They pulled, they pushed us, they threatened, one got my corner of the banner away from me and I quickly grabbed it back. He, then made a fist and put his arm up as if to punch me in the face. I just looked at him for a minute and then I asked, is that what you REALLY want to do, hit an old lady?" One could see the change in his face as if he'd realized what he'd been about to do and it seemed to shock him to find himself with his fist cocked to punch a woman old enough to be his mother. That herd mentality is definitely a real thing and it can be deadly dangerous.

[Tigress DEM]

137. Yeah, it's why our trusted leaders get in line when enough people vote.

When the numbers of people watching and speaking truth to power get large enough not to be ignored politicians who are pulling crap or thinking about pulling crap suddenly become afraid of the "mob mentallity" which is a degree of intent and focus higher than the "herd mentallity".

[Two Americas]

148. this is different

We are not talking about mob mentality, nor groupthink here. We are talking about the dynamics of a crowd of people that is in panic. It has nothing to do with why the crowd formed in the first place, nothing to do with the people's thoughts, motives, beliefs, morals. attitudes or intelligence.

[kywildcat]

72. Yes, and I survived the Who concert December 3rd, 1979

Herd mentality is very real-it has nothing to do with race, religion or political stripe. It happens in Europe and North Africa at soccer games, at concerts and shortly after the Dec. 3rd concert another stampede killed people to see the Pope.

[starroute]

107. I once got involved in a riot under similar circumstances

A movie theater in Boston had offered a free midnight preview showing of the latest James Bond movie for anyone who showed up in a trench coat, so a couple of friends and I hauled out our most plausible raincoats that could maybe-pass-for-a-trench-coat-in-a-dim-light and set out.

Once there, we joined the line outside the theater and waited. And waited. And waited.

We later learned that so many people had showed up really early that the theater had just let them all in and then locked the doors. But nobody explained that to the people who kept arriving.

The crowd became larger and larger and angrier and angrier. Eventually, a few of the people at the front started pushing against the doors.

The thing about being in a crowd like that is that when it surges, you surge with it. Everyone is tightly packed together, you have no individual choice in the matter, and just to stay on your feet you have to push in the same direction that you're being pushed.

I'd experienced something like that on a smaller and tamer scale in high school lunch lines, and it's always frightening, because once that surge takes over, you no longer have free will. It's not even a matter of mob psychology -- it's more like being caught in heavy surf at the beach or having your car go into a skid. All you can do is roll with it and hope to get safely out the other side.

And it only takes a small number of individuals in a crowd to set it off.

In this case, the theater doors eventually started breaking under the pressure of the surging crowd, but around the same time the cops showed up and the whole thing degenerated into a sort of free-form riot. I ran off down a side street to get out of it, and since I'd gotten separated from my friends and the subways had stopped running for the night, I ended up walking a couple of miles home.

Lesson learned. Since then, I'd choose to run in the other direction rather than ever get into a situation like that again.

[Tigress DEM]

138. My last time at the Rose Parade in California was not too fun.

I was one of those kids whose high school did a fund raiser by having the choir kids and families work on putting the flowers and such on the Rose Parade floats. It was really cool and some of us would go with the floats to make sure no one picked off the expensive flowers before the last judging at 4:30 or 5:30 am. I had a friend that weighed 250 and had a don't mess with me face. I was the one who could get between them and the float quickly and talk people into waiting until after the final judging.

The last year I was there it was like some 2 million people along the 5 1/2 mile parade route. Once I did my job I started heading home but the crowd stopped at one bottle neck behind some bleachers. We were in front of a huge house with a great lawn that had a high chain link fence temporarily set up to protect it from being tromped on. The bleachers kept one side blocked, the fence the other. People were picking their kids up and putting them on shoulders because we were packed so tight there wasn't any air down at that level, but we just shuffled and tried not to be claustrophobic and eventually got out, but it was about 1/2 an hour to travel 20 feet.

I guess if someone's dog got loose and started chewing someone up, we might have bolted. Or if a bee hive dropped in the middle.

[Two Americas]

192. very well said

"The thing about being in a crowd like that is that when it surges, you surge with it. Everyone is tightly packed together, you have no individual choice in the matter, and just to stay on your feet you have to push in the same direction that you're being pushed."

"You have no individual choice."

"It's always frightening, because once that surge takes over, you no longer have free will. It's not even a matter of mob psychology -- it's more like being caught in heavy surf at the beach or having your car go into a skid. All you can do is roll with it and hope to get safely out the other side. And it only takes a small number of individuals in a crowd to set it off."

"And it only takes a small number of individuals in a crowd to set it off."

[wtmusic]

142. I'd like to see your study that says "no one is immune"

to shoving a door down and trampling a human being to death. There may have been people who were caught in the middle, there were many who were not. No reflection on their character/morals/intelligence? I'll disagree wholeheartedly, and give them a big fat zero in all three for letting their goddamn 40% off turn them into animals.

Btw I've been in plenty of demonstrations and marches that got out of hand. Each time, I and many others got the hell out when things got dangerous.

[Two Americas]

145. it is here

Posted to another thread. I can try to find it if you like. But as I, and many others have said, when you have experienced it first hand you never again have any more doubts about it. Have you read the first hand accounts here from people? Do you doubt them?

[wtmusic]

147. Yes, please try.

Sorry to be cynical, but I get a rash when someone I've never met asks me to trust them. :-)

[Two Americas]

154. no problem

I think people have difficulty imagining this. I know that it was one of the most bizarre and frightening experiences of my life, and I had no idea whatsoever before that what people were talking about.

[Two Americas]

155. here is what was posted, wtmusic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4555982

Not a study - sorry, my mistake - but informative, I think.

You raise an interesting point and I will see what studies have been done on this.

Thanks.

[liberalhistorian]

186. No one is immune?

That's horseshit. I would never step over a dead body to go shopping and then get angry and refuse to leave and continue shopping after being told of the death. Neither would anyone else I know. Those people bear just as much blame as Walpuke's policies.

There are some of us who are able to resist the crowd and herd mentality. Human beings are not all animals and savages, we do have free choice as to how we respond in such situations.

[Christian30]

99. Not true

Studies have repeatedly shown that people who earn less money give a higher percentage away to charity than do those who earn more. In fact, the trend is that the more one has in terms of income and wealth, the smaller percentage of that income and wealth will be given away.

[Midlodemocrat]

185. That's a completely different study that Giving USA, which is

the standard in the non profit world. I would like to see a copy if you have it, please.

[dsc]

101. actually repeated surveys of charitable giving do suggest a correlation

between income and generousity and that it is negative. We hear about high profile gifts of the very rich but survey after survey, after survey shows that the lower the income the greater percentage given.

[wtmusic]

143. Higher income households give a lower percentage, but more of them give

-Higher income donor households, those with incomes of $100,000 or more, give a lower percentage of their income on average (2.2 percent of income) than do those with incomes under $50,000, who give 4.2 percent of their income.

-However, higher income households are more likely to give: 93 percent of higher income households reported donations of $25 or more to charity, compared to 56 percent of lower income households.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=26736

[Midlodemocrat]

184. Actually, that is incorrect.

The wealthiest people in this country are among the most generous. Gates, Buffett, Adelson, Soros. Adelson has donated hundreds of millions of dollars, a great deal of it anonymously.

[Dis Pater]

6. Please let the haters cling to something.

[libnnc]

170. So long, asshole!

[Midlodemocrat]

187. Jesus!

FINALLY!!!!


:thumbsup:

[readmoreoften]

190. Good lord.

[dorktv]

7. Being poor is no excuse for being stupid.

And it IS stupid to rush a store like that.

Wait in line, be courteous to others, and while you may not get what you want right away-you can always come back later. (when the season sucks so much that the stores drop their prices even more.)

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. let me put it this way

Wal-Mart sets up a scenario where you get on a line, it's not a single line, it's a line of 5 to 7 people wide at the big double-door entrance. The line starts to form at 10 or 11 the night before because Wal-Mart advertised that this would be "THE BEST SALE OF THE YEAR, A ONCE-A-YEAR EVENT SALE" and draws literally thousands of people.

Then it does ABSOLUTELY NO CROWD CONTROL. IT doesn't have cops out there. It doesn't have guards out there. It doesn't have people watching the back of the line to make sure they're not shoving the people in front of the line.

The reason this poor worker got killed wasn't because the people in the front of the line ran him over, it was because the people in the back of the line shoved the people in front of them and the people in the front of the line couldn't stop themselves. If they had stopped, or tried to stop, they would have been on the bottom of the pile too.

Courtesy doesn't mean anything when a retailer basically sets up an every-man-for-himself event.

[Pale Blue Dot]

16. I'm not denying that Walmart is responsible.

That in no way excuses ANYONE who simply HAD to have a 50" Plasma screen TV - even if it killed someone. And trust me I know that this could have happened just as easily in a wealthy Republican suburb as it did here. That does NOT excuse anyone from this evil, selfish act.

[dorktv]

26. Yeah pretty much.

[Hannah Bell]

35. No one there went in with the intention of getting a TV even if it killed someone.

And I'd be willing to bet serious money that the majority didn't know anyone had been trampled or died.

Evil normally implies intentionality. The people in the crowd had no intention of killing someone when they went Christmas shopping.

However, Walmart definitely had the intention of generating more sales by assembling a huge, tension-driven crowd to fight over scarce goods offered within a narrow window of time.

[THUNDER HANDS]

36. in addition

when you set something up so that everything looks like it's on sale, people will buy anything they can get their hands on, so people rush to get in the store as quickly as possible to get ANYTHING because they think EVERYTHING is on sale, even when it isn't. In fact, only a few items are actually on sale on black friday at Wal-Mart.

[BoneDaddy]

82. Wow

you should have been the defense lawyer for Hitler, you spin so well. Regardless of race, these people were behaving like animals.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

98. Nice. Godwin's Law invoked. n/t

[BoneDaddy]

198. Goodwin's law or not

the reality of the situation is that when you attempt to hold people culpable for that which they are culpable for and someone defends them is such an aggregious fashion, then Goodwin's law applies as a metaphor for arguing from the EXTREME as Hitler is typically the culmination of that which is WRONG or EVIL in modern society. So from a point of deep sarcasm, yes, arguing to justify the animal behavior of those at the Wall Mart, it is appropriate.

[Gormy Cuss]

104. Which people? Which of the est. 2000 people were behaving like animals?

What's your proof connecting any individual? Those who trampled the staff aren't necesarily the ones most culpable. Being pushed forward by a mass of people doesn't make you guilty of anything other than being in the front of the crowd. The people who were pushing and removing the hinges from the doors, now that's another story.

Ultimately though the store management and by extension the corporate office promoting this event without regard to crowd control issues bear most of the responsibility.

[npk]

166. Um, maybe the poster was refering to the people who were shoving the

emergency workers who were trying to revive the man laying on the floor. These people were acting like animals. That's what I call it when you are shoving medical personnel out of the way when a man is lying motionless on the floor after being trampled to death.

Wal Mart can't be blamed for that.

[Gormy Cuss]

181. That's a different part of the story.

Of course if people were shoving emergency workers (as opposed to being pushed into them by the crowd) they deserve to be charged, but Walmart is culpable there too because it created the situation in the first place.

As has been posted ad nauseum, this isn't the first time they've had uncontrolled crowds for these events at Walmart and other retailers. All of the retailers who sponsor these events are aware of the potential for out-of-control crowds. It's not exactly a new phenomenon that staff and customers are injured in such events when insufficient crowd management techniques are used. What makes this stand out is that somebody died.

There are good reasons why large public events require permits.

[BoneDaddy]

199. That is my point...

if these were a bunch of white hicks...the accusations against wall mart would be a minimal issue.

[BoneDaddy]

197. Okay

that's great. The store is responsible. None of the individuals in line bear any culpability. Give me a fucking break.

[Darth_Kitten]

103. People still have free choice......

when people were told someone was KILLED, they still continued to shop, because, hey, they waiting in line so long. :eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

200. When they continued to obstruct medical personnel

it is a fucking problem.

[Pale Blue Dot]

44. Yes. I agree.

That STILL does not excuse the people.

DO I believe that Wal-Mart should be held liable and forced to pay big bucks to this man's family? ABSOLUTELY.

Does that mean I excuse the actions of this crowd, who gave in to this crap and were fighting over something completely unnecessary? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And if people are saying that this crowd could not have been expected to control itself because of its race, then that betrays a different but no less potent form of racism.

[Hannah Bell]

46. a "crowd" by its nature can't be blamed for anything. It doesn't have a head,

but no single individual can overrule its direction. It's a mindless entity. The moral ruler you're applying - doesn't apply.

If you've ever been caught in one, you know. I've stayed away from them ever since. But it took the bad experience to know to do so.

[Pale Blue Dot]

48. Bullshit . Excuses. nt

[Hannah Bell]

56. No, predictable reality.

[ProfessorGAC]

74. I'm With You, Hannah

I know you probably weren't expecting that! I don't see how anybody can blame the "crowd". What does that even mean? That if 5 people would have tried they could have held back the rest of the tidal wave?

The problem is letting people stack up outside the doors, having nobody there to encourage patience and order, and INSISTING on waiting until the EXACT moment to open those doors. That just creates pent up excitement, when it could have been greatly minimized by just opening the doors 5 minutes early.

This is on the store, not the crowd.
The Professor

[conscious evolution]

100. Absolutely correct.

A couple of people is all it takes to turn a crowd into a howling mob.But once it starts it takes on a life of its own.
I know.I have done it before.Many,many years ago,me and a couple of buddies used to play with crowd manipulation tactics for fun and games.One time we set off a riot.That shit scared the crap out of me and I have never done it since.

[Two Americas]

51. panic in crowds

I was in a march once years ago, and up at the from of the march - hundreds of yards from where I was - the police apparently charged the crowd with batons. That started a panic, and within an instant I saw hundreds of panic stricken faces turned my direction and a wave of humanity running full tilt toward me. There is nothing to do but turn and run yourself - no time to think - and try as best as you can to not fall and to not step on those who have fallen. People who have never experienced this cannot imagine it.

[wtmusic]

144. The difference

In that case you are trying to save your life, in the other you're trying to save $29.95 on an iPod.

Your life is worth more than $29.95, isn't it?

[Two Americas]

157. not relevant wt

You could be caught in the crowd looking for a light or chatting with a friend and have no intention to shop. You could be in a crowd that formed for a completely different reason. A crowd that panics and stampedes has nothing to do with any of that. 90% of the people have no choice but to move with the herd. The alternative is possible death.

[juno jones]

93. I agree.

I was caught in seemed to be some kind of riot on New Year's '97 near Union Square in San Francisco. We were trying to find a bar that we were supposed to meet others at. We turned a corner and walked right into a seething crowd. Once we'd gone a few feet, we tried to backtrack, but we couldn't, we were carried along by the crowd and into a cul de sac formed by barriers and riot police. My friends and I helped people up who were sucked down under the crowd. I was so grateful to escape that. I never want to see that happen again and this incident was a reminder.

[wtmusic]

146. Oh please.

A crowd is made up of individuals, and from each of them we can expect some level of personal responsibility.

There were those who were stuck and couldn't help it, and I'll bet there were hundreds of others who, while this man lay on the floor gasping his last breaths, were in the aisles grabbing their precious booty. They can be blamed for plenty, as can the store for not taking idiotic humans into account and having appropriate procedures in place.

[Atman]

176. Actually, a crowd does have "a head."

Crowd behavior and crowd control are like sciences unto themselves. And a big industry. Crowds, under certain circumstances, are very predictable. Wal Mart chose to eschew the predictably. Their actions (or inactions) undoubtedly fomented this "riot." We here about these stampedes every year. This isn't something new this year. The death could have been avoided, period.

.

[ColbertWatcher]

191. "The death could have been avoided" Yup. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

188. This is something I still don't understand about this.

If I pulled into the parking lot at 4:10, and saw this mob, it would logically mean to me that there was no way I was getting one of the 3 $128 Blue Ray Discs unless I was willing to risk life and limb for it.

Did it not occur to any of those people at the back of the line to simply go home? That they missed their chance at cheap electronics this year?

Or was the lure of said electronics so incredibly great that they figured as long as they were there, they'd attempt it?

I don't think I'll ever get that, but I detest crowds and wouldn't go to one of those things if you paid me.

[wtmusic]

152. It would be an interesting study

to ask this group of people anonymously if they could save 50% on a bigscreen TV, someone at the store would have to die, but they would never be held accountable - would they accept?

We both might be surprised at the results.

[Hannah Bell]

30. Yep, Walmart set the stage, offering extremely reduced goods on

a single day in order to get a huge, hyped-up crowd of people in the building, who, influenced by the crowding, tension & competition, would buy thoughtlessly, led by emotion.

Walmart could sell the same goods at the same price in a longer window of time, but they WANT the crowd, the competition & the emotion - because they sell more.

Predictably, most of the good "liberals" here are lining up to demonize the shoppers as "animals".

I suppose they blame concentration camp inmates for "bestial" behavior too.

The stage managers set the scene, the players only act their parts. Walmart created the artificial scarcity situation, & theirs is the primary responsibility. Once you're in the crowd, it controls your movements; the people behind you can't see if someone's down in front of you; they can't see their feet; you might want to stop, but you're pushed along.

Any situation where large herds compete for scarce goods will play out similarly; it's well-known, has been for a very long time.

Why I never go to sales: I hate the energy. But I have enough money & free time, & few enough desires, to choose that option comfortably.

[Dis Pater]

43. You seriously comparing shoppers who drove, walked, rode a bike, hitched a ride,

took a bus, or jogged to WalMart and waited anxiously to get in to concentration camp prisoners?

And then this- "Walmart could sell the same goods at the same price in a longer window of time, but they WANT the crowd, the competition & the emotion - because they sell more."

they could sell the same longer but they sell more? huh?

[Hannah Bell]

55. I assign the responsibility to those who set the scene.

And if you don't think Walmart (& all retailers) deliberately create situations of artificial scarcity to generate tense mobs & impulse/competive buying, think again.

It's the same technique realtors use when they tell you someone else wants the property, so they need your answer today.

They don't have to offer the reduced goods on a single day. They don't have to have only 5 of the item, they don't have to not tell people in the ads there are only 5.

All these are techniques used consciously to generate pavlovian responses, the automatic reactions of people in situations where desired goods are scarce.

There are videos on the web of the same mob scenes from years past, with people being knocked over. Yet walmart didn't change their MO, knowing this. Why not?

Because it generates profit. Even if the dead man's family sues, they'll realize more profit with this technique than with techniques that don't create mob scenes.

[BoneDaddy]

85. Gimme a break

the people PRIMARILY responsible are the ones who did it, not Wal-Mart. Now if you want to assign secondary responsibility, then you may be correct but the people there were the ones MOST responsible.

[LiberalEsto]

96. Walmart could have issued numbers

to the first people in line, like some other retailers do. Then the others on line could have chosen whether to stay or go home. Instead the company opted to allow a riot.

[NashVegas]

90. It's Not An Excuse, But Sometimes, It's a Reason

Made worse by economic segregation.

[Pale Blue Dot]

8. THEY TRAMPLED A MAN TO DEATH TO GET "THINGS"

I don't care about their race, creed, political affiliation or economic situation. Those responsible, those who continued shopping and did not help, are evil, evil people.

I worked in retail for almost 20 years and I know that evil assholes come in all colors, sexes, sizes, religions and economic backgrounds. We should not defend these people for ANY reason. Instead, we should be having a national conversation about our "American" values and what is really important. That conversation is long overdue.

Stop defending this. Walmart was and is evil. So were these customers.

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. I'm not defending them

I'm just saying don't be so quick to judge all of them. There were 2000 people in line and I'm sure if they could, almost all of them would have stopped and helped the guy, but they were being shoved by people behind them.

There were assholes there, low, degenerate people, to be sure. But it wasn't all of them.

Wal-Mart is an evil corporation to be sure, but not everyone who works there, nor everyone who shops there, is evil.

[Pale Blue Dot]

21. I'm not judging all of them.

But I will judge most of them. And I promise you, I've been judging most of them all day, assuming that this was happened in a wealthy area, up until the past couple of hours.

I respectfully submit that it is time to talk about whether it is EVER appropriate to get up at 1AM on a family holiday to get to Walmart and fight for an $800 TV. THIS NEEDS TO STOP. America the consumer nation is dead.

What could we have done to save the victim?

[THUNDER HANDS]

27. I can tell you a lot of things that could have been done to save the victim

number one, a partition could have been put up every 30 customers so that rushing the front would have been avoided.

number two, walmart could have made it clear what the process would be, 30 people go in at a time, wait 5 minutes, then another 30 people go, ect. everyone on line would have known what the procedure was and not treated it like a mad scramble to get to the front as quick as possible.

number three, walmart could have taken inventory of the items it had one sale in the fliers and told people online, "look, we have X-number of these HDTVs and X-number of laptops," and starting from the front of the line taken a list of who wanted what sale items and taken names and had them ready for THOSE CUSTOMERS ONLY and then told the rest of the people in line that they would have to come back another time if they wanted those particular items. I did that two years ago with the Nintendo Wii. We had eight in stock and there were 10 people in line the night before black friday. I told the last two people "look, I know you're planning on spending the night here, but there's a better than not chance that you're not going to get one today, I'll have the store take your name and number and call you when we get more in." They appreciated that and didn't get angry and left the line. Keep in mind, I did that ON MY OWN and not on the authority of Wal-Mart.

number four, it could have hired private security guards to monitor the line as crowd control.

number five, it could have served coffee and donuts to people in line to calm them down and keep them happy instead of tense and angry.

that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

[Pale Blue Dot]

42. All are excellent points. And Wal-Mart should be held resonsible for all of them.

The customers should be held responsible for #6, that they should care more about human life than a 50" TV.

[BoneDaddy]

201. They should be accountability number one

Wal-Mart is beholden but their responsibility is secodary. Those who did the act are primary.

[RamboLiberal]

78. Good points and according to the NYT they knew trouble was brewing

The throng of Wal-Mart shoppers had been building all night, filling sidewalks and stretching across a vast parking lot at the Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, N.Y. At 3:30 a.m., the Nassau County police had to be called in for crowd control, and an officer with a bullhorn pleaded for order.

Tension grew as the 5 a.m. opening neared. Someone taped up a crude poster: “Blitz Line Starts Here.”

By 4:55, with no police officers in sight, the crowd of more than 2,000 had become a rabble, and could be held back no longer. Fists banged and shoulders pressed on the sliding-glass double doors, which bowed in with the weight of the assault. Six to 10 workers inside tried to push back, but it was hopeless.

Suddenly, witnesses and the police said, the doors shattered, and the shrieking mob surged through in a blind rush for holiday bargains. One worker, Jdimytai Damour, 34, was thrown back onto the black linoleum tiles and trampled in the stampede that streamed over and around him. Others who had stood alongside Mr. Damour trying to hold the doors were also hurled back and run over, witnesses said.

Some workers who saw what was happening fought their way through the surge to get to Mr. Damour, but he had been fatally injured, the police said. Emergency workers tried to revive Mr. Damour, a temporary worker hired for the holiday season, at the scene, but he was pronounced dead an hour later at Franklin Hospital Medical Center in Valley Stream.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html?ref=nyregion

I think they should've hired some police to keep this from happening and had a queue instead of a mad mob with your suggestions.

[Realityhack]

123. Yep. They set themselves up for it... and now

they are already bracing for the lawsuit saying they had adequate security.

[BoneDaddy]

83. Amazing how you can make the people responsible

victims. That is sad.

[madinmaryland]

105. The people who bull-rushed the store bear no responsibility?

At the least they should be ashamed of the behavior.

[BoneDaddy]

196. Ashamed?

They killed a guy. Seems like more than ashamed to me and to blame the store is such utter bullshit

[Realityhack]

122. No he isn't

He is simply pointing out that Walmart shares a lot of the blame here for creating conditions that lead to this. Of course the individual people are fully to blame. But that is not an excuse for failure to have adequate crowd control in place.

It's not like nothing like this has ever happened before. Stores know what can happen on black Friday, some plan well... others do a poor job and create dangerous conditions.

[BoneDaddy]

195. I do not disagree with his post

I am merely pointing out that trying to excuse those accountable (all the people rushing over another human being till he is dead) are primarily accountable.

[Raschel]

29. I agree. When I was in retail we had to try to force the doors shut due to tornado warnings.

Old White ladies were still asking where certain items were as we tried to force the doors shut.

Pure ignorance no matter who, what color, why, where.

[JVS]

52. They trampled a man to death to get away from the huge crowd crushing them

[ColbertWatcher]

135. Because there was no crowd control. See pics in post #68. n/t

[Two Americas]

160. yes

Of course. It is stunning to see the lack of imagination and empathy some are displaying in their comments on this subject.

[NashVegas]

128. They're No Different From Dick Cheney, Then

Except that Cheney hired others to kill for him.

[JerseygirlCT]

163. I've got to agree

I have a pretty good idea of the area, too. I was under no illusions about rich Republicans shopping there, never fear! Rich Republicans don't shop at Wal-Mart anyway. They don't need to.

Poor people can be every bit as consumer-minded, every bit as selfish, every bit as concerned about nothing but their own shopping list and bargains...

I think the real take-away here is a wake-up call to every one of us to stop and examine our own thinking and behavior. What would we have done? What do we do every day?

[Lorien]

178. The root of it all:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x245076

[Doremus]

9. What possesses crowds of people to stampede over soccer?

It's just a game.

Mob mentality is not to be trifled with. Working a crowd into a frenzy -- for whatever reason -- without taking proper precautions is irresponsible and, as we know since it's happened before, sometimes deadly.

A little advanced planning goes a long way. Other big box stores manage their sales without this kind of result. Best Buy hands out coupons an hour before they open. No coupon, no item. No reason at all to push and shove. Easy. But apparently too much effort for WalPuke.

[Realityhack]

124. Very well put.

Mob mentality is well understood. And trampling has happened before during sales. Wallmart holds a lot of responsibility here.

[madinmaryland]

10. I assume you are referring to my thread.

My real question has nothing to do with the folks who were shopping there. It is more that why were they drawn there and why is it so important to them to be there at 5:00am and put on a mad rush into the store.

Yes, it was a sale, but the same crap would have been on sale a couple of weeks later. Also, if you don't have the money to put out for that crap now, then why would you risk your utilities for that crap. I'm sorry, but going thru bankruptcy doesn't make me feel real happy when fools who can't afford to buy shit go out and do it anyhow. I've been living on the brink for years and it pissed me off when people value shit more than their family.

[kurt_cagle]

12. The Christmas Buy-fest

Part of this is the inculcation of guilt into the American populace through generations of advertising. The message presented by the marketing execs is subtle but devastating - The Christmas season is not about getting, but about giving. If you don't give at Christmas, if you skimp on presents or buy anything less than the newest or the best item for as many of your friends and relatives as you can, then you're a scrooge, a selfish, evil person. So people buy not out of love but out of desperation borne of guilt: "If my Katelyn or Jon comes down the staircase in the morning and finds nothing under the tree, then my kids will hate me for being a bad parent". This means that you end up buying things that the kids (or anyone else) frankly don't need often at a time when money is tightest (as an independent contractor, the holidays are always painful for me), and even if you regularly give your kids things that you feel are good gifts (a computer program helping them in school, or a new wardrobe for your teenage girl or some books for an avid reader) through the rest of the year, if you don't buy, buy, buy at Christmas time, then you're a failure.

In a way, it's a brilliant marketing strategy - snobbishness generally only appeals to those people who are by nature fairly self-centered anyway. Guilt, on the other hand, is something that the rest of us carry around with us - and worse, marketers use a kid's natural strategies at fulfilling their own needs as the foundation for it - in essence, pitting parents against their own children.

One thing that I think is happening is that people are beginning to wake up from that cycle of marketing induced guilt, but only very slowly. It's a seductive strategy, especially for people who tend to be fairly generous-natured to begin with, and one that can lead to devastation and heartache in the months after Christmas as that unsustainable splurge due to that guilt needs to be paid for. Of course, that's not going to stop those same marketers from continuing the strategy, especially when the economy is tanking for them too.

Maybe, more incidents like this will wake people up to the insidious rot that we've let permeate our culture.

[catnhatnh]

25. Very nice post....

It's good to see some energy spent producing light, instead of heat.

[joe_sixpack]

139. The sad, almost hidden truth about the buying frenzy

is that it has to be stoked to keep our economy going. The normal, and sane reaction to an economic crisis is to revert to outdated but laudable concepts such as thrift, delayed gratification, frugality and belt tightening. But we built a house of cards and a freak of a never slowing economy based on an irrational desire for immediate consumer goods supplemented by cheap and easy credit. Welcome to America.

Those in the upper echelons of government know that people are starting to do what it's expected they would do, i.e. cutting back and paying down debt. But that won't do in this situation, cause without millions buying crap they don't really need or can barely afford, even more workers would be out of a job. The downward spiral could then get really nasty. So that is why we see the government pissing away money it doesn't have in an unprecedented effort to try to avert a natural and normal reaction to a slowdown and recession. Here's the secret..... we can no longer handle our economy not growing, not only that, but growing at an acceptable rate. We can't handle it for a quarter, not for a month, not ever. Imagine what that means for our poor planet.

So what a perfect way to kick off the Christmas season. Stir up the masses so that it looks good on TV. Get people to get up early and queue for hours, just to be the first to get some plastic or electronic thing that you could surely find for a similar or lesser price at any time on line, or even at the same store later. We complain when we're treated like sheep but we still can't help but volunteer to stand in line to get fleeced.

[littlebit]

13. They're idiots plain and simple.

Most of the crap Walmart was selling for "cheap" this morning will be even cheaper in a few weeks. Hell I just got back from the Walmart here and some of the stuff they were advertising has already been reduced even more. Nothing in that store was worth that mans life. The saddest part about all of it is people there didn't care. When they were asked to leave a lot of them got mad because they had been waiting in line all night. How selfish is that?

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. very selfish

very selfish indeed.

But the blame lies squarely on Wal-Mart, and as someone who has worked there, and worked on black friday there, I know how this could have easily been prevented - and I'm going to be sure to let the lawyer of the worker who died know that when I find out who he is and contact him.

[littlebit]

24. Walmart policy does have a lot of blame in it

But they don't have all of the blame.

[Hannah Bell]

38. Walmart is the only single actor who had it in their power to prevent what occurred,

& the only single actor who intentionally created the conditions that caused the death - for their own benefit.

So I think they do.

Mob behavior isn't a new discovery, & neither is mob behavior in competition for scarce goods.

[Donnachaidh]

33. yeah, and that lawyer will be hung out to swing for YEARS

And the employee's family will see SHIT. The lawyer will certainly get his fees.

Walmart had it's sales, the family has a dead body, and probably even funeral expenses, knowing how CARING Walmart is - and lawyer fees trying to get satisfaction. Yeah, you'll give him that magic info -- how much do you want to bet that Walmart's lawyers already have defenses for anything you could tell this lawyer?

Yeah -- jumping on an employee's chest and snapping bones is SOOOO much easier to do when there is a 40 inch plasma TV waiting for you at the end of the aisle. :sarcasm:

[JI7]

18. i disagree, these people most likely don't even vote

[elleng]

19. Thanks Rat,

you're right.

[Mind_your_head]

20. Yep, those people who stormed that Walmart and killed that guy

are media-loving, abandoned people who are just barely "hanging on to what they've got", because who the h*ll ELSE would do that?!?!?

[VPStoltz]

28. Americans will keep on struggling if no one takes a stand...

and stops shopping at those places that buy only from overseas producers. Of course, who doesn't? BUT, you have to start somewhere. I get by just fine not shopping at Wal-Mart on a teacher's salary and I am proud to say I've never set foot in one.

[Donnachaidh]

31. and as long as you use the *I'm struggling* meme to excuse shopping

at a big box store that has DESTROYED the local stores - you'll do NOTHING to help fight against corporations who have helped devastate the jobs in the US.

But you go right ahead with your excuse -- but why don't you just put it in terms everyone can understand, and is the new creed in the US --

FUCK YOU -- I've GOT MINE.

[BoneDaddy]

87. and this is a creed I see by many americans

regardless of race or class. These threads to not put the responsibility on the very people responsible smacks of ultra liberal victimology that refuses to place accountability on those responsible.

[NYC_SKP]

32. They weren't there early to get better prices on electronics so they could afford FOOD.

As nice as that sounds.

If I'm not mistaken, the big sales were on electronics, like xBoxes and HDTVs, and it's very unfortunate.

And certainly people who shop there, including for food, are less likely to be Republicans.

Times are hard and, unfortunately, people are able to pay less by shopping at Walmart.

Whoever they were, however they vote, they were there to buy largely unnecessary goods.

They, and most of the rest of us, pray at the alter of consumerism.

[Hannah Bell]

40. Who cares? In the greater scheme of things, desiring a cheap TV is

small on my sin-o-meter.

To me, deliberately setting up a mob scene so people would buy more under the pressure is worse.

Walmart could have offered the same number of goods over the entire holiday shopping season. There was no reason they had to be offered "one day only" except to generate a mob with an artificial sense of scarcity, i.e. a panic.

As well as which, the techniques of crowd control are well-known, & Walmart used none of them.

To generate more panic-driven profits.

[Breeze54]

59. unnecessary for whom? Do you have a good TV?

"they were there to buy largely unnecessary goods."

:eyes:

[Critters2]

156. I have a TV. How "good" does a TV need to be? Which TVs are worth killing for,

and which are worth shopping at a normal hour at a normal pace for?

These people weren't shopping for milk and bread.

[prayin4rain]

34. Also 99.9% of them were not aware of what was happening and would have done

something about it if they could.

[Realityhack]

125. Care to back that up?

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that most of those people would have done anything even if they knew what was happening. Group behavior is fairly well understood. Most people take no action especially when others are around.

Yes most of them did not know what was happening.
No they would not have done something about it if they had.

[FloridaJudy]

37. Has anyone here ever *been* in a human stampede?

I have. When the Oakland cops charged into a crowd of peace demonstrators in Berkeley during the sixties. I still have nightmares about it. Believe me, most people have no control in that situation. You're being shoved from behind, and can't see what's happening in front of you. It takes every ounce of strength you've got just to stay upright. You can't think clearly: you panic and want to run like hell, but can't because of all the people pressing in on you.

That's probably what happened to the majority of those shoppers. The ones behind were shoving forward, and the ones in front had nowhere else to go. The ones in the back hadn't a clue that a human being was being crushed to death, and the ones in front had no way to move but forward. As some one put it, the laws of physics were against them.

Yeah, there probably were some callous brutes who continued to shop even after the tragic situation became obvious, but I doubt that anyone in that crowd came with the clear intention of buying an HDTV even if they had to kill someone to do it.

And I do blame Wal-Mart. As soon as it became obvious the crowd was out of control, they should have ordered their employees to stand well clear of the door. It's not worth anyone's life to guard a bunch of cheap crap from China.

[Hannah Bell]

39. Thanks for that. I've been there too (not quite as bad as your situation, though!)

It's hysterical reading some of the comments here - as if people were willfully knocking others down & kicking them to get to the TVs.

And yes, Walmart is to blame 6 ways to Sunday.

[JVS]

53. If a company is going to tout its sale to get huge numbers to show up, they need crowd control

[Two Americas]

54. yes

I have been in that situation. I too still shudder when I think about it.

I am certain that what happened was crowd panic, and that is deadly and nothing to scoff at.

You are describing crowd panic very well. The hateful and judgmental opinions being expressed on this thread are horrific.

[Breeze54]

60. Well said and crowds can be brutal ! !

I don't like crowds for that reason. Was in one for the fireworks on New Year's Eve
and people started shoving and there was no where to go. Freaked me out.

[Lars39]

86. I once fell in a haunted house and was trampled by just a few people.

Absolutely horrifying feeling.

[kywildcat]

164. Yes, as I've posted elsewhere-Dec. 3rd, 1979

11 people where trampled at the Who concert in Cincinnati. It's easy for people to get on their high horse and judge. Unless someone has lived through one-and a serious one at that-they can't possible know what it's like to be powerless against 19k people-to be unable to move your head, your arms and even your legs or feet a fraction of an inch to catch a breath or to relieve the pressure on your chest to fully catch a breath. What it's like to feel yourself falling and have absolutely no way to reposition your arms or your feet or ANYTHING to brace yourself, and who you would fall on top of, and who would fall on top of you. Unless people have lived through it, they have no way to fully understand the powerlessness.

[Marrah_G]

212. These people went on to shop and refused to leave when asked to

They had not one thought of compassion for the people hurt and killed. They thought only about their own shopping. They had to be forcibly removed.

The trampling may have been due to the herd mentality. But not the thoughtless and inhumane behavior afterwards.

[Midlodemocrat]

189. That's not the same thing. It's also not the same thing as

screaming Fire in a crowded theater and creating a mob scene.

These people placed themselves here to purchase cheap crap. Not for a higher purpose and not because someone else put their lives in danger. They did that to themselves.

I've been in plenty of 'crowd' situations involving thousands more than this where the people behaved in a totally appropriate manner.

This was greed. Pure and simple.

[Marrah_G]

211. You may be right about the herd stampede issue but you are missing something

These people went on to shop....they were not horrified. They did not care that someone died. When asked to leave the store so the police could secure the scene and care for the injured and dead they refused to stop shopping.

So while they may have been pushed from behind......they decided that a man's death and injured people......people whom they had stepped over on on...... were less important then their Christmas shopping.

That is sick and shameful.

[Gwendolyn]

41. Mostly anyone who lives in Nassau County is strange or rude...

... what shall I say...:)

[THUNDER HANDS]

45. strange, yes, rude...

fuck you.

;)

[Gwendolyn]

47. well fuck you too, in a nice way...

:)

[JVS]

50. I don't think stampedes are really about shopping, soccer, rock concerts, etc.

One enough people get into one space, it's all about trying to get out. And while we see people stampeding into the walmart and tut tut about rampant consumerism, for those running in it's about getting away from the several hundred people behind them.

[Gwendolyn]

57. Say what you like, but basically people round these parts are rude, rude and rude.

Doesn't surprise me at all. You can't go to a grocery store without an incident. For some reason, the empathy gene has passed them by. Sorry, should have specified, White especially, and then minorities. People here are just assholes. Point blank.

[onenote]

94. really? Every day, every hour there is an "incident' in every grocery store?

Wow. Every time I've stopped in a grocery store in Nassau County it must have been a once in a lifetime moment where no incidents occurred.

You're not just painting with a broad brush. You're throwing the whole can.

[Realityhack]

129. This is why so much of the blame falls on Wallmart and the police force

Obviously others deserve blame as well, but this was entirely completely predictable. Both Wallmart and the police force should be ashamed of their actions which lead to this. Well run events don't turn out like this.

[Breeze54]

58. Thank You, Magic Rat !!

Thank You for pointing that out!

Great OP!!!

:kick: & Recommended

[silverojo]

62. I didn't want to mention it until you did

But I did notice how predominantly black the stampeding crowd was, and I found it dismaying. We have our first African-American president trying to lead us with hope. And then you have people like these, reinforcing the worst racist stereotypes, acting like gangsta thugs with no feeling for anyone...merely driven by greed, just like the MTV rappers who mindlessly drown themselves in "bling".

I also think it proves a certain inherent reverse racism in ourselves, here at DU. We just assumed these were white people, and I myself said it was a typical Republican attitude that caused people to do this. Are we really so overly PC, that we're brainwashed into thinking that only white people are capable of being immoral? That only white people are superficial enough to value possessions over people?

It really has me rethinking a lot of my own beliefs. White Republicans, as awful as many of them are (esp. the RW'ers), are not the root of ALL evil. I'm sure there were Democrats, as well as Republicans, in the stampede that killed this poor man.

I also know that the small-town Republicans who are my neighbors wouldn't think of behaving that way.

So it makes me realize why Obama wants to work with people from both sides of the aisle. Because he's willing to look beyond stereotypes and pick the person who's right for the job.

It's not about party affiliation or the color of your skin. It's about the heart, soul, and mind of the person.

I've learned a lot about myself in the past few hours, and I've gained even more respect for Barack Obama.

[Raineyb]

208. Excuse you?

You're using a mighty broad brush to paint the people in the crowd. It was a crowd. It is so easy for a crowd to turn into a stampede when no one does anything to try to control the mass of people. That's why entities that are responsible and give a damn do something to control the flow.

How easy it was for you to immediately run to the most negative stereotype.

I learned something about you all right. You are a bigot.

Regards

Edited to remove the reference to being a progressive as I have no evidence of progressive beliefs.

[RandomThoughts]

63. Poverty and the fear of not being able to care for those you love.

I find the sadness is how our own poverty can be used to get us to allow workers elsewhere to be treated wrongly. And to get us to treat our own neighbors as a lesser.

If you want your society to allow bad treatment, make them choose between survival and acceptance.

This is the true evil of corruption, the scorched earth of evil, that knows this method brings everyone lower and lower, deeper and deeper, the downward spiral.

There are some that rule, that believe society must be constantly set upon each other. They must war and fight, for as soon as a brother loves his brother regardless of religion, race, creed, class, or so many trumped up social statuses, once we no longer fight each other, we are allowed to think, and suddenly the veil is removed from the secrecy of the few, that have set us against one another too profit and to hide in the smoke and dust of our battles.

And this is their rational, if the masses are not given enemies within their own ranks to fight, the masses will turn on the ruling body to seek information or comfort, or even to seek justice.

Ideal minds... think. And a thinking population is the greatest fear of those who rule unjustly.

Also notice how I say that people would demand equality from leaders, yet this would be perceived as a battle. So to them, to keep the masses battling each other is not an evil, it is a trade off, or a release of pressure that will always exist, and something they do not want released on them. However justice, real justice, and equality would also release the pressure, since their would be less to find objectable. But the few like their status, even if it is not justice, so they must hide and distract.

[BoneDaddy]

88. Utter crap

I can't believe you actually believe this shit.

[RandomThoughts]

114. How could I believe it

Especially with such a sound and thoughtful rebuttal from you. :)

[Two Americas]

119. oh really?

You cannot believe that anyone would believe in the traditional principles and ideals of the political Left, the Union movement, and the Democratic party and you call those "shit?"

Here is someone who agreed with the poster you are attacking.

A Rendezvous With Destiny

The defeats and victories of these years have given to us as a people a new understanding of our government and of ourselves. Never since the early days of the New England town meeting have the affairs of government been so widely discussed and so clearly appreciated. It has been brought home to us that the only effective guide for the safety of this most worldly of worlds, the greatest guide of all, is moral principle.

We do not see faith, hope, and charity as unattainable ideals, but we use them as stout supports of a nation fighting the fight for freedom in a modern civilization.

Faith - in the soundness of democracy in the midst of dictatorships.

Hope - renewed because we know so well the progress we have made.

Charity - in the true spirit of that grand old word. For charity literally translated from the original means love, the love that understands, that does not merely share the wealth of the giver, but in true sympathy and wisdom helps men to help themselves.

We seek not merely to make government a mechanical implement, but to give it the vibrant personal character that is the very embodiment of human charity.

We are poor indeed if this nation cannot afford to lift from every recess of American life the dread fear of the unemployed that they are not needed in the world. We cannot afford to accumulate a deficit in the books of human fortitude.

In the place of the palace of privilege we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
June 27, 1936

[BoneDaddy]

194. wow you are amazing

being able to justify righteous freedom from religion and government with the absolute uncounscious machine greed that stomped a man to death. You should hang out with Rove you are so good.

[Gwendolyn]

65. Honestly, it's the place. White, black, doesn't matter what color, the people

who live there are beyond hope. They are mean and strange people. And it's not about poverty or white privilege. The people who live there are basically not right in the head. All of them.

[Berry Cool]

66. Anytime a stampede happens, you have a crowd "mob" mentality

and it's dangerous, because it as a group has no brain...it's just a mob of people pushing and pushing and pushing, its only thought to get from Point A to Point B (for whatever reason), with no thought given to who might be trapped or smothered or crushed underfoot...all it knows is, the back of it is in THIS place, and it wants to get to THAT place.

No one is operating as a thinking, feeling individual anymore. Everyone is acting as part of a faceless mass...that way, no one has to feel responsible, it was the group that did it.

It's scary. And it can happen to any group of people, anytime. All you have to do is tell a bunch of people you have something they want in limited quantities and that in order to get a crack at it, they have to come to a certain place at a certain time. Or something they want to see, and seats are first come, first served (at least for the best ones). Or just go to any packed building, and tell them the place is on fire.

You will be horrified at the carnage you will witness.

[ColbertWatcher]

67. Here are two pictures taken at the Valley Stream Wal-Mart before the doors opened ...

The first one shows what the crowd looked like as you looked away from the store.



The second shows the entrance.



Notice what's missing?

[ColbertWatcher]

68. More pictures of the store.

This image shows the single door at the front of the store. Note the man at the right of the picture close to the store and the sign on the wall behind him.



Here is what the side door on the left of the above image looks like.



This shows a cop and the sign from the first image pointing to where the "line" was supposed to form.



These images were taken by the same person, moments apart. You can see the sign on the wall of the front of the store in this one.



In the next one, you can clearly see the front door through the side door in this image:



This series of pictures shows there were at least two entrances for people to get in, and no organization whatsoever.

[Dukkha]

118. the "Always" on the front looks like it was written in blood

and it's meant as a loyalty order to the masses

[ColbertWatcher]

132. I think you nailed the meaning, but the imagery is pushing it a little. n/t

[wtmusic]

150. Calling it a "blitz line" does nothing to fan the fires, does it? nt

[ColbertWatcher]

162. It looked like they only had one sign up.

How could people on the other side of the store know where the line was without a sign or proper security?

Whenever a movie theater has a highly anticipated movie, they have signs, those damn rope line things, security and other employees making sure people don't crowd the doors are in the right spot and don't get nasty in the line.

I've read several posts about how some stores hand out tickets to people standing in line one for every item they have in stock. When they run out, the store informs everyone else that they will have little to no chance of getting said item.

Wal-Mart wanted a stampede and did everything to insure they got one.

Now they don't want to suffer the consequences for their actions.

Anyone surprised a temp opened the door?

[TexasObserver]

69. When crowds stomp someone to death, it's the responsibility of the entity in charge.

Walmart, in this instance.

They put their employee in a predictably dangerous situation, with bad consequences.

Crowds can surge in a way no one in the crowd intended.

[LatteLibertine]

70. Honestly

Fuck anyone that would run over another human being for a piece of plastic shit.

You're responsible for what you do, and these assholes are no different. Plain pure and simple, they suck.

We all know Walmart sucks and that's not excuse for this event.

[WolverineDG]

113. Well, honestly

Fuck you too. Have you ever been in a panicked crowd? I have. You could be stronger than Superman & you'd still be forced in the direction that the crowd is going. The only thing on your mind at that point is to get out of that crowd alive & in one piece.

When I was caught in such a crowd (thanks to some asshats who decided to tear gas my school as a prank), I wasn't able to stop until I got outside the building & there was enough space to get away from everyone else. Until then, though, I & the other 3000 students were funneled through the hallways, thrown against lockers & slammed into closed doors. My right shoulder is still fucked up from that, thanks kindly. I didn't know until later that one of my friends, who had been sitting next to me when we got up & had to run for it, had fallen & was being trampled. If I stepped on her, am I responsible? I don't know if I did or not; I don't recall her falling down. I couldn't even put my arms out to push people away or make more room for myself, couldn't stop, couldn't turn around & go another way that was less crowded. When you're in a large crowd like that, you have absolutely no control over anything that happens to you or anyone else.


dg

[MzYvonne]

71. Key Ingredient In This Wal-Mart Story?

Yes, selfishness. Wal-Mart and the stampeding herd all had a self serving agenda in mind

[ColbertWatcher]

134. And Wal-Mart is to blame because they didn't provide sufficient security or ...

... any planning whatsoever. See post # 68 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4554275&mesg_id=4554814

[Blarch]

76. Think about it.

If you were to walk over somebody, would you know it ? ...of course.

These people chose a 30$ DVD player over human life. There should be arrests, people should be jailed , the store should be sued silly.

The people who bum rushed the store are the same people who go through Xmas and never say the words Jesus, or God ...it's all about consuming, as an Atheist, it disgusts me.

[Raineyb]

117. I doubt that in their attempts to avoid being crushed themselves by the crowds

they weren't aware of who if anyone they may or may not have stepped on. That's what happens when crowd control is nonexistent. The blame lies solely and completely on Wallmart.

Regard

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

77. IMHO were not just from Valley Stream (& Nassau Co.). Valley Stream borders Queens and is only

about 20 minutes from Brooklyn. The only Wal-mart "game" in town.

This is a tragic story.

A few years back I went to my local Wal-mart on a Black Friday, here in Westchester. It's 5 minutes from my home. No one stampeded into the store, but once I was in there, the sheer volume of bodies made me claustrophobic, close to a panic attack...that had never happened to me before. If any emergency happened, chaos would have erupted. I got out of there as soon as possible.

[RamboLiberal]

79. More info on the story from Newsday FWIW

The stampede began when people who had gathered well before 5 a.m. in the rear of the line began pushing, cascading the people in the front into the sliding supermarket-type doors, which were knocked off their hinges, Fleming said.

Augustine, 26, said the melee began just after a Wal-Mart employee told the crowd the store would open earlier than the scheduled 5 a.m. opening. The employee then said it was a joke. This angered the crowd, leading to people trying to rush the store, Augustine said.

Frightened employees initially used the doors as makeshift shields to defend against the onslaught of shoppers, she said.

At that point, lots of people were on the ground, she said, not just Damour.

-----

Wal-Mart defended its security, a store executive said in a statement on Friday. The chain says it hired additional security personnel, staffed the store with more employees, and erected barricades, said Hank Mullany, president of the company's Northeast division.

-----

Jim Carver, president of the Nassau County Police Benevolent Association, said the police department should have planned better and specifically assigned more officers to patrol high-traffic shopping areas, like the Green Acres Mall area.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/nassau/ny-listam295945786nov29,0,6659497.story

A police spokesman said there were half-dozen officers assigned to the mall that night. A NYT story said that the police were called at 3:45am to quiet the crowd. Seems to me that Wal-Mart and the local police knew this was a brewing problem that morning.

[aikoaiko]

80. Trampling accidents: you can't see your feet and you can't stop for fear of being pushed down

Its really very easy to happen and can happen almost anywhere a lot people of packing in and moving.

It was an accident. Sad accident.

[The Backlash Cometh]

81. This is exactly how I pictured it went down.

[1776Forever]

84. There was talk on the radio Thursday about Big Screen TV's for under $400 & items way under priced.

This is what those people probably read and heard on their TV's and radio's. This was in Columbus, Ohio and the local guy was doing a "what are you going for tomorrow on Black Friday" show. He had a woman call in and say she wanted to go to Wal-Mart and pick up a 40" HDTV for $386. I looked on the net later and didn't find anything like that advertised by Wal-Mart for that small amount nor was it in their print add. So where do these "legends" gain support from? I think people like you said are driven by the idea that they too can have a HDTV for themselves and they think if they line up and get their first as in a race they can get it. This leads to the stampede idea and the "blitz" line that was posted on the wall.

I personally went to another store yesterday at 9:00 am that had 50% toys advertised and low about behold they still had a nice selection! The line took an hour to get out of but to me it was worth it to be able to buy my Grandkids 1 item each for 1/2 cost! There was no shoving because there were enough items. Wal-Mart typically has from 4 to 10 items in each store and that again breeds this get-it while you can attitudes.

My 2 cents - Wal-Mart was and is responsible for this and this kind of false and dangerous advertising gimmick should stop! If they can't have at least 100 of each item and maybe even do a lottery type drawing somehow so there is no stampede then don't do it!

[Jennicut]

95. Some people don't want to stay "lower class" and figure its a step up

In the cities its like having that HDTV means you are a step above others. I had a friend from a very poor city in CT, Bridgeport, and he told me its status in the city. You are looked up to if you have more "stuff". Consumerism has taught the poor kids that they need to have those sneakers, that ipod, that video game, etc to be cool. Lots of commercials are directed at these kids. Some have killed over sneakers or a jacket. It makes me very sad that the need to want an object has become so important in these communities. I guess its because things never get better there, to rise up out of circumstances like this requires more then products and bling but these kids are sold a lie. Cities have not gotten any help in 8 years so its gotten worse and worse.

[1776Forever]

111. Excellent points! You are so right on here. I remember as a young mother of 5 feeling terrible at

Christmas when I couldn't buy my kids the TV toys they advertised back in the 70's. I was young then and have grown up now to know that these are just "feel" good commercials that make someone think if they have this "stuff" it will make you "feel" good and be like the rich kids. I can see your point clearly! This is another mark on Wal-Mart that they have no depth or morals to understand this could have happen for this very reason!

Thank you for your post!:fistbump:

[deutsey]

89. Very good point. Consumerism is the root problem, imo.

It transcends political and class lines.

[Realityhack]

130. How is consumerisim to blame for a mob?

Lots of places run sales without stampedes. Consumerism may be a problem but in this case the problem was wallmart creating a mob situation with absolutely no control whatsoever.

[deutsey]

174. I either didn't make my point clear or you're not getting it

I believe consumerism, with it underlying marketing philosophy of manipulating our desires, fears, whatever, creates a mentality that can lead to this kind of tragedy. Why do people who do this or fight each other over fucking Cabbage Patch Dolls, or whatever is the "must have" thing, do what they do?

It's a general critique I was making.

[Eurobabe]

91. Yep times are tough, esp. in Philly suburbs

Lots of folks shopping at the Wal-Mart in Cheltenham, nearby were the neighborhoods that put Obama over the top in Philly. People need to stop being so goddamn self-righteous and judgmental over this. Everyone is appalled that a human being was trampled. We get it.

But it's the working class people who are getting slammed in this economy, and if they can save a buck so they can make a car payment, who can blame them for shopping at Mao-Mart?

[Atman]

97. Another angle, most in regard to "awareness" and education.

Okay, we've all been involved in at least one "Wal Mart is killing America!" thread. That is one component...the people that tend to be willing to camp out in front of a cheap store in order to save a few bucks on an crappy Chinese made DVD player are generally not very informed citizens. Seriously. I know it's a broad-brush statement, but informed people know how Wal Mart makes it's money...by demanding ridiculous prices from it's Chinese slave-labor suppliers, and putting local businesses into the crapper.

But the people stampeding the doors are NOT "news watchers." I doubt that many of them have heard the warnings about how bad and how long this recession will be. If they've watched any news, it's likely on Fox, which never lets on that there is anything bad happening in the world if it will negatively impact their corporate backers. Looking at the video of the CRAP these people are stampeding each other for...it's amazing. Do you think ANY of them thought "You know, maybe I'd better hang on to this last little bit of cash I have left just in case I don't have a job next week?" Why would they. If you aren't aware of a particular problem, you're not likely to act in such a way as to help avoid it.

I'd love to hear an actual news guy stop and interview a dozen of these people and ask if they have any idea about what is going on in the economy. After all, they rarely talk about it on "Next Top Model," "Cops," or "Charm School."

Six or seven months from now, many of these people will have $400 flat screen tvs, but no cable or maybe even electricity. Because they didn't plan. They didn't bother to understand the world around them. They didn't pay attention to anything but the hype.

.

[Darth_Kitten]

102. Sorry, but there's never any excuse to being so callous and stupid......

no piece of shit item from Wal-mart, no bargain, no nothing is worth stepping over a dead body to buy a bag of crap.

People have their priorities skewed. Who cares who they voted for.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

115. If it was a real stampede,

then it may have been impossible to stop. You are pushed forward and are unable to put the brakes on.

[Joe Chi Minh]

106. To imagine that man was killed deliberately or even through wanton

carelessness is very wrong. No-one would have foreseen the consequences of that stampede, and those behind the leaders, would have been unable to hold back/stand still, or they would have been pushed over and trampled, too. In fact, once they ran forward, THE ONES AT THE FRONT COULD NOT HAVE HELD BACK THOSE BEHIND THEM.

The mistake was to permit, never mind instruct, an employee to try to hold back such a crowd. Aren't those kinds of stampedes at sales normal in your country? They are in the UK - whether at Tescos or Harrods.

[codjh9]

108. I agree with most of what you said, but you still can't trample people to death!!! n/t

[BootinUp]

175. The people that knew someone had fallen were being pushed

forward. The people doing the pushing weren't aware and had their heads up their asses. But that is the way all these kinds of crowd injuries occur. There is no way for the people at the front to stop.

[DeschutesRiver]

109. No excuses, at least not that I am buying

I don't give a fig about this line that these were "people like you and me." They got together in a group, they KILLED a man, and they freaking laughed as people tried to save him.

Sorry - not in a million, bazillion years would people who are "just like me" kill someone over plastic trinkets. Never. For other reasons? Maybe so - to protect family, to survive, you could name a few situations. But I know people "like me" and nope, not in the past 50 years have any of us killed someone for toys or trinkets, or allowed ourselves to act this badly. This has nohing to do with who they are superficially, or what category of "types' they are - this is about who they are inside their skins.

Since it is about more than the exterior appearance or economic position, or political or religious belief the person has, this kind of behavior can happen no matter the group - yep, even the rifle rack, Bush bumper sticker SUV driving Walmart crowd. I am not letting killers off the hook, no matter what social-economic group to which they belong.

These people chose to behave like the basest of animals - they showed they were more than capable of taking a life if it was in the way of a "sale". I am judging them by their actions, and I hope their future Christmas's are filled with hell on earth for what they participated in, esp. those who found it humorous.

If these are people just like you, I'd suggest you ditch them and find people of real caliber and compasion and good nature to hang around with as soon as possible. Most of my family was working class poor - not in a million years could I see my mom or dad participating in or laughing at a man being killed who got in the way of their shopping.

Seriously - can you imagine yourself or your mom or best friend rushing past a dead guy, screaming that you must be allowed to shop because you'd waited in line for a long time? Taking a door off its hinges to toss aside to get a cheap chinese piece of electronics? Laughing at some dumb guy who just wanted to get a little extra cash by working temp, lying in your pathway dying in front of your eyes? You could not only keep shopping, but be pissed off that they wanted to close the store so they could help or at least remove the dead worker first? This man will have no more Christmas ever, nor time with those he loved - this is funny?

I am not exaggerating when I say I know people who not only would NOT do any of that, they are appalled and disgusted by this event where people decided of their own free will to behave this way.

[DeschutesRiver]

112. And for the record, I am hoping Wal-Mart gets its sizable ass sued from here to Sunday for

setting up this situation, where innocent people could be killed by animals like this. Wal-Mart had more than enough warning that this situation was going to kill someone, sooner or later.

[Realityhack]

131. I think you are missing something about the way mobs behave.

The people at the front of the mob where presumably the first to hit this man. But did they cause it? Could they have stopped even if they wanted to without being run over from behind and trampled themselves?
Of course not. Once the entire crowd gets moving as a mass it is nearly impossible for single actors to stop. And it is driven by people in the rear who can't see what is happening at the front.

So which people specifically in the crowd are to blame?

The people in the crowd are to blame but I think you are oversimplifying things.

[DeschutesRiver]

161. I can try to put it another way.

I have an understanding of mob psychology. I also have an understanding of free will and choice. So in that way, yes, I would place blame on anyone who exercises their free will to be a part of some event like this that every year is known to cause harm, if not death. This may be another example of oversimplification, but if those attending an event like this can read well enough to understand the concept of "we need to get there early to get the trinkets we want because supplies are limited", then I'd wager they can understand the danger of a crowd situation like that, and probably in addition to reading sales ads, have also read previous accounts of what has happened at these black friday events in the past. Still there is the question of do some of them have the requisite knowledge to understand this prior to choosing to attend.

I blame Wal-Mart, in large part, because what happened was entirely foreseeable. I blame the crowd in the same way - completely foreseeable that this could happen. I choose not to attend these kinds of events, why? Because I have read about what happens each year when hundreds of people gather to fight for possession of three or four trinkets. I don't want to be hurt, or to hurt anyone else. Maybe it is part of being a responsible human being to avoid dangerous situations - I think people forget that there is such a thing as a complete accident. Unexpected, unavoidable. We can't just quit being responsible and call whatever results an "accident."

I don't see this as some sort of random event/gathering that a person had no control over attending, but it is still a good question about those people in the back of the crowd. Had they only read about cheap deals, but not the yearly well publicized stories of how easily this gets out of hand? Since accidents are part of driving on a freeway, and people still choose to drive on those freeways, do we blame the people in the back of the 100 car pileup?

My sense is that if we all know, including Wal-Mart, the foreseeable risks in this behavior, then I'd assume most of the people standing in that line accepted that risk, and as evidenced by their laughter, didn't feel death was enough of a consequence for them to avoid crowds like this. Would you have kept shopping, even if you'd been in the back of the line and had no idea of the potential consequences of a mob gone mad? Surely a dying human should trip a signal for these "unaware" mob people to get a clue about what just happened? At that point, the mob movement forward was done and these charming humans were off to their individual fun sections of the store to shop until they dropped.

It was the behavior of those who laughed, kept rushing to shop, and grew outraged over being refused access to the trinkets that should be held accountable - I'd start the blaming right there. I keep going back to the people I know, who aren't rocket scientists, and no, even had they arrived clueless, not one would bitch over their curtailed shopping privileges due to a man's death by mob.

[Stardust]

202. I'm wondering about your repeated assertion that the crowd laughed

and became enraged when they were told to leave...is this on video? Because, until I actually see that behavior, I'm very skeptical. Don't send me a link, because I honestly don't want to see it. I just want to know if it's factual or just more mainstream bullshit designed to inflame us.

[DeschutesRiver]

206. Here is one thread - I'm on dial-up which is going too slow right now or I'd find the others

This thread is about a video shown on CBS - actual footage of the rescue attempts, so not msm spin, but the real video deal for you to judge if you wish:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4553622

Note: With dialup here, I only watch videos if there is a dire need (and I had no dire need to see and confirm the laughter by members of this shopping mob); but I couldn't find a reason to doubt the DU posters who replied on this thread (read it and see what you think).

There is at least one other thread which mentions newspaper accounts of shoppers not wanting to leave the store, angered in fact that they were being asked to leave, because they'd spent so much time waiting in line. Per these accounts, Wal-Mart had the worker's dead body removed and then reopened the store at noon (as far as I am concerned, catering to these shoppers who seem to think this is all a joke or an inconvenience).

If my dialup didn't suck tonight, I'd look that up too, but you can do the same. Main point is that this info came from DU'rs, and seemed reliable, and I am deeming these two things factual for myself, at this point. I'd say I am horrified by this, but recently human nature seems cruel and way out of control on many levels, so I am starting to regain my cynicism about such things.

[Stardust]

207. I hope I didn't appear to doubt you...I'm just skeptical of the msm nowadays. Thanks. nt

[DeschutesRiver]

213. Not at all! And I had a hard time believing it too, until I saw that thread.

I also feel there is a ton of manipulation going on in the msm at present. Well, also on the internet, too - can't be entirely sure of information without digging a bit. I'm not known for being all that trusting (because I've had experience being taken for a ride:).

Take care.

[Two Americas]

110. rugged individualism and panic in crowds

I think that the people blaming the people int the crowd are arguing from a "rugged individualism" point of view - they fancy themselves above the people in the herd, and would never be part of that "idiocy."

But there is a contradiction in that.

It only takes a small number of people in a crowd to start a panic. 99% of the people are not panicking because they are stupid, let alone "greedy" or whatever, they are moving because they have to move or their life will be in grave danger. Once panic starts you move or you will be trampled.

It occurred to me that those few in the crowd who start these panics may well be the "rugged individualists" in the crowd, determined to do what they want to do as individuals and contemptuous of the crowd.

The people here looking down on those in the crowd and expressing what can only be called hatred toward them, think "I would never be in that situation!" But what if they were? They would move against the crowd. They reject the herd. They are above it all. The same rules don't apply to them. They are not like those sheep on the herd. They are autonomous individuals, vastly superior to those stupid people in the herd.

[davidthegnome]

167. Interesting

Here I thought we were suffering from that rare illness known as a sense of responsibility. I don't see anyone denying that Walmart is to blame, but tell the man's family, tell his friends, that the crowd that ran over him was made up almost completely of the innocent. Tell them that no one in that crowd ought to be held responsible.

Interesting how 99% of them are in a panic because if they don't move they'll get crushed..... by what? The other 1%? Interesting math. It takes a small number to start a panic, but not because "they know they will be trampled". I've been in much larger crowds in numerous situations, including lines, and somehow not a one of us was in a terrible panic.

I would never be in that situation, frankly, because I'm older and wiser than I used to be - wise enough to avoid such crowds. Secondly, I'm not an idiot who goes to a Walmart on black friday for some new highly over-rated crap. Thirdly, this particular "rugged individual" would most likely have been trampled along with that poor man for refusing to move.

To deny that those people who trampled this man are responsible for his death is beyond absurd. Sorry, I don't care if you're running from a fucking herd of elephants, there's no excuse. They deserve to be held responsible, and I certainly hope that they will be, to whatever extent possible.

By denying their responsibility, we encourage their lack of responsibility and encourage them to commit further acts of extreme stupidity in the future.

[Two Americas]

169. oh they will hang someone

They will find a scapegoat. Fear not. The demand for vengeance will be satisfied.

[nichomachus]

116. The veneer of civilization in the US is very very thin

If you want to see real violence, wait until gas is rationed -- or wait until food is in short supply. Then, you'll see blood.

And it cuts across all class lines.

[Karenina]

177. BIG OL' BINGO!!!

[jazzjunkysue]

120. Truly "poor" people aren't in line at walmart. That's not a legitimate excuse.

Poor people are in line at the soup kitchen or salvation army.

These were middle class people who wanted to be part of an annual disgraceful public greed ritual.

They knew exactly what they were doing and why they were there.

And panic only counts when machine guns, tanks, or fires are involved.

This story upsets people because it reveals greedy americans for what we are: Selfish.

We let third world people starve and die for our "way of life." We occupy entire countries for our oil.

This is a metaphor for america.

Support the troops. God bless america.

[Realityhack]

121. " I don't think the people... had a herd mentality." Then you are quite dull.

It doesn't matter what the mean income was, what their skin color is, what they drove.
There WAS a heard mentality. It happens just about any time you get a bunch of people together and is aggravated by them being excited.

You can say the heard mentality was all about getting in to get a bargain but it is still a heard mentality.
And I noticed that you didn't mention them not leaving when the store tried to close.

[girl_interrupted]

126. Magic Rat something is troubling me about this story

Walmart was flat out wrong for not supplying enough merchandise & security, especially at the Green Acres Mall. There have been so many incidents of violence , there, in the past few years. Shootings, stabbings, muggings, etc. But there are other aspects of the behavior of these shoppers that just leaves me flat out cold.

When Jdimytai Damour and other employees told the shoppers they could not enter, they pushed through anyway, the doors were literally ripped off their hinges. So a lot of the pushing and shoving came from the front of the line, to begin with. Once Jdimytai Damour was knocked down, other employees tried to help him, but were shoved aside. Once the police arrived & were able to get through, Damour lying on the ground, in full view of the shoppers, receiving emergency medical care, they went right on with their shopping. If you are involved in a traumatic incident, like a stampede, and you know a crowd may have forced you over someones body, and you see other people injured, including an 8 months pregnant woman, would you just go about your shopping, like nothing happened? For me that would have been one hell of a traumatic event, and the last thing I'd want to do is shop.

In addition when police had announced they were closing the store because of a death, the shoppers started bitching. I find that absolutely deplorable.

I've gone to many of Black Friday shopping sprees. Yes, you wait out in the cold for hours, thats nothing new, bargain hunters love it, its a tradition with them. But I have never seen anything like what occurred at the Green Acres Shopping Mall. The attitude of these shoppers was just so callous, no interest in the people injured or the man killed, none.

I just feel sick to my stomach about the whole thing. In the local papers, Jdimytai Damour was described as a man who loved poetry, a guy just trying to do his job. A guy who got in his car & rushed to pick up a friend on 9/11, after he crossed a bridge by foot, to get out of Manhattan. A guy always willing to help others.

The whole thing is so senseless & heartbreaking. Walmart is partly to blame and I hope they get the pants sued off them. But as for those shoppers, they also share in the blame, not only in action, but in attitude. Talk about Mans Inhumanity to Man. I understand police are now going through video tapes to see how this started, and I hope those responsible, are held accountable for their actions, and criminally charged. There was just no excuse for this.

[Realityhack]

127. Girl... I think you may have replyed to the wrong post. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

133. I hear what you are saying, but it STILL has to be a two sided coin.

We had to do a lot of education to get poor people in the south to not vote against their best interests and take the rest of US down with them.

I've been poor. I've shopped at Wal-Mart, but there is a mentallity in America that you shop til you drop or you are a bad parent if your kid doesn't get "the toy" for Christmas that they all want. We HAVE to become a country that is about MORE than shopping - especially anyone who knows what Christmas is really about.

Wal-Mart DOES try to get by with the least amount of employees to get the job done and I don't think they generally give a rats ass about the safety of their employees, so they HAVE to change that.

Look at it this way. A LOT of people didn't realize that the cords from mini-blinds hung near a baby's crib was a possible death sentence until it happened.

BUT NOW that people know, if you go to a friend's house and they have that situation, as a responsible friend you have to help them find a way to change it so it isn't a danger to their child. Put the blinds down all the way and tie the cord up as high as needed to make it safe and cut off the excess.

SO there has to be some simular way to make this madness STOP. As a society, we can NOT tolerate DEATH BY SHOPPING.

[AZBlue]

140. I'll admit it: I'm forced to shop there myself.

I am really struggling financially right now and when it's this bad I have no choice but to shop there because unfortunately their prices are that much lower.

After yesterday's death though, I will try to go only when absolutely positively necessary (althought I was pretty much doing that already). I realize that the people who trampled that poor man are just as much to blame as the store, but I doubt I'll be able to go there without thinking of him.

[Spectral Music]

141. Rat, you are correct. Wal Mart is to blame for that man's death however

They should have known their clientele and prepared accordingly, and the should NEVER have put a temp at the front door. I hope the guy's family sues Wal Mart.

[ColbertWatcher]

159. "NEVER have put a temp at the front door"

Regardless of whatever job he was hired to do, Wal-Mart placed one person at the entrance, where not one, but two (and possibly three) groups of people converged.

Wal-Mart should get their asses sued into bankruptcy.

No bailout for you Wal-Mart!

[pitohui]

149. interesting post, esp. since i'm so unfamiliar w. that part of the country

i have to admit it crossed my mind that people stampeded because 1) they really needed to save the money or 2) they really needed the money they would make by re-selling the items

but then i heard "long island" and figured it was all rich society ladies and i was a bit puzzled, figured it was something like a joyce carol oates thing (she has some good gothic tales set in new york!)

i didn't see the video footage and had no idea of the actual demographics of the store

now it makes me wonder if my particular walmart, which does have a large white and well-to-do demographic, is handled differently from a walmart with a primarily minority customer base(i use the one in covington so never have occasion to visit others elsewhere around new orleans) -- we have visible police and security pretty much all the time -- if the others are not given security just as good, it seems pretty shitty and yah racist


well i guess it will all come out in time, we shall see

[Critters2]

153. Not people like you and me...well, not like me.

I don't believe any material thing is worth another person's life...or even getting up before dawn. Nor do I think a big screen TV will make my Christmas more meaningful.

[demokatgurrl]

158. I judge them no more than I judge all of us

in this country. We have gone over the edge in our need to consume. WAY over the edge.
This was a frenzy- no matter who was involved, what their ethinicity or economic status or party affiliation.
I can (pretty much) buy that they are not to blame, but our society certainly is.

There's something wrong right away with a country whose whole fucking economy runs on a materialistic orgy of buying known as "CHRISTmas".

[OwnedByFerrets]

165. Thats a pretty good post...nt

[WorseBeforeBetter]

168. Standing in line to buy cheap shit from China isn't the only way to "spread joy this Christmas."

(I suppose I should say "on line" since it's LI.) I can think of DOZENS of gift ideas that don't involve getting up before dawn or trampling store employees. And they're not Bob Cratchit looking to feed Tiny Tim with savings from their big screen TV purchases.

Americans need a huge fucking attitude adjustment, and I don't even see it happening in the middle of economic meltdown. Sigh.

[EC]

171. Wherever there is a crowd, there should be preplanned crowd

control...period...WalMart has security...were there the needed amount? were the security trained in crowd control? Did Wally plan for crowds by having a system in place? Were numbers handed out as people arrived? What? What kind of control was there?


I'm sure we know already...one security guy, trained to call the cops for shop-lifters....these black friday activities were trouble all around in my opinion...just give the damn discounts without all the damn gimmicks...I'm tired of the poor and middle-class being used like gladiator type of entertainment for the rich...the reality shows included...what desperate people will do for money...

[HCE SuiGeneris]

172. A pathetic OP

You are trying to exonerate the people that callously killed another human while attempting to shop for frivolous material possessions.

Liberal or Republican or Independent... this isn't the issue. You are one messed up individual -- don't know what your intent is... but your rationalization is very twisted.

[puebloknot]

173. No sale. They didn't trample anyone to death while surging forward to vote.

This is herd behavior, and I have to assume it was inspired by a herd mentality.

While they are putting more food on the table with the money they saved while buying a gift for a loved one, one family is grieving over the permanent loss of their loved one.

There have been people crushed to death at soccer games by a largely white crowd at soccer stadiums throughout various parts of the world, so we don't need to assume that criticism of this behavior is racist in nature. The soccer stadium is not to blame because people within it, or trying to enter it, were a frenzied crowd. The behavior is simply abhorrent in nature, no matter what group does it, and no matter what was *so* important to them that the lives of others became unimportant.

Making excuses for bad behavior only helps to further it.

Many of us are struggling Americans, though admittedly many of us here at DU are probably struggling at a higher level than the people in this news story. But no piece of merchandise is worth a life.

[hendo]

179. How on earth

do these variables make it okay that they trampled someone?

If you are an a** and you voted for Obama, that doesnt make you a better person, you are still an a**.

Just saying.

[liberalhistorian]

182. First of all, you have NO idea who the

majority of them voted for, none. Just because they're mostly lower income and minority does NOT automatically mean that they're democrats and Obama supporters. Hate to break it to you, but many lower income and minorities voted for McCain. Your blanket assumption on that is just as bad as the blanket assumption that they were all driving gas guzzlers and had hefty wallets and were just plain greedy.

Secondly, I'm sorry, but I WILL judge them for their horrendous, sickening anti-human behavior. There is NO excuse for doing what they did, none. There is NO EXCUSE for STEPPING OVER a dead man on the floor after BREAKING THE FUCKING DOOR DOWN AT 5 A.M. and then becoming irate, shouting angrily and continuing to shop after being told of the death and told to leave 'cause the store was closing. NO EXCUSE IN THE WORLD. And no, they are not "just like me." NONE of the Obama supporters I know would have ever even considered doing such a thing. Those people were, in the words of one witness, nothing short of "savages." Period. It has nothing whatsoever to do with class status, income, or race. It has to do with your character as a human being. And I hate to say this, but if they HAD been richer and white, I don't think there'd be any threads on here apologizing for their behavior.

Yes, Walpuke bears equal responsibility for their lack of security and crowd control and failure to take other simple measures that most other retailers take in such circumstances (handing out numbers instead of the first come, first served nonsense, etc.) that would have easily prevented this tragedy. But Walpuke's responsibility does not negate the shoppers' responsibility. They share blame equally.

[Stardust]

193. Thank you. I grieve for all involved.

[amborin]

203. was there anything in the store they really needed, crucially needed?

weren't they after flat screen tv sets?

regardless of what demographic slice they came from, their behavior was sickening, and it's played out by EVERY demographic slice, in its own way

Americans are addicted to TV

Herbert Marcuse referred to TV and the media as "passive totalitarianism"

a gov't didn't need guns in the street, tv would do it better

Americans are addicted to TV, to commodities, to more and more stuff....

we've lost sight of our core human values

[Ex Lurker]

204. I question whether they were lined up trying to

save a few bucks so they could afford groceries. I guess I'm just more cynical than that. Yeah, Wal Mart shoulders a majority of the blame. But I'm not giving the mob a pass on this. In the picture I saw a lot of people with cell phones. That tells me that while they may not be wealthy, they're not on the edge of destitute.

[Hippo_Tron]

205. I don't see why people can't wait until after Christmas to give gifts

I suppose that's easy for me to say because my family never actually celebrated Christmas. But honestly everything is far cheaper after Christmas than it is on Black Friday. If people want to get a nice gift for a family member or friend but are trying to save money because of the hard economic times, why don't they just wait until a few days after Christmas to buy the gift? I know it's not ideal but as Jagger said, you can't always get what you want.

[tom_paine]

209. Lots of very wise threads started on DU recently. This is one of them

These are things that need to be said, that those of us who dislike Wal-Mart need to hear.

Thanks.

:hi:

[Marrah_G]

210. I don't care who they are or who they voted for- They are sick

They literally ran over a dying man- stomped on him like trash, and then went on to SHOP. They didn't leave horrified. They were traumatized over what happened.....

THEY CONTINUED TO SHOP.

This is sick, twisted, disgusting and those people should be ashamed....but they are to self-involved to be ashamed of their inhumane and disgusting behavior.

I been so poor in the past that my children had NO Christmas.

Never would I have run over a dying person and continued to shop as if they werre nothing more then refuse on the floor.

NEVER.

These assholes wouldn't even vacate the store when requested...so the police could try to save the injured and secure the scene.

SELFISH

SELFISH

SICK