20,000 more troops to Afghanistan? Bring back the draft

[Mari333]

the soldiers that are in Iraq and Afghanistan now are at the breaking point. 2, 3, 4 times they have been sent over, to stay for a year and then sent over again. They are deployed over and over and over again. Their trauma and stress levels are at an all time high.
This kind of re re re deployment has ruined the nation's troop morale, and undermined our armed services more then any time in history.
Unless we have a massive new influx of army volunteers (which isnt happening), its cruel to continue to keep sending these troops to even more combat and more combat over and over and over.
Armed services enlistment retention and enlistment is low. recruiting levels can only be met at this point by lowering standards for recruits, such as allowing convicted felons to enlist , which was never allowed in the past.
to send 20,000 more troops into afghanistan is to once again deploy troops that have already been deployed numerous times in iraq, whose families are living hand to mouth to get by, who are losing their jobs and homes and livelihoods because they cannot maintain a family or any semblance of a normal life whilst being deployed 3 and 4 times.
soldiers have been commiting suicide at the highest rate in 26 years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/15/AR2007081502443.html
we are at a breaking point.
therefore I would personally support a draft, if obama wants to send 20,000 troops into afghanistan.
this is the only way obama could justify a surge. he could call for a reinstatement of the draft, and provide the armed services for the personnel it needs to implement his policy in afghanistan.
anyone who supports obama on the surge would, i assume, welcome a draft, because i am sure that they are well informed as to the burden our current troops are now under.
so, if you back the troops, and you back obama's surge in afghanistan, i hope that you back reinstatement of the draft.
thank you
http://www.nsnetwork.org/node/585
'Washington, D.C. - Current and former military officers are deeply concerned about U.S. military readiness. In the wake of Amb. Crocker's and Gen. Petraeus' appearance on Capitol Hill, and ahead of President Bush's Thursday Morning speech on troop deployments, the National Security Network compiled a report detailing the breadth and depth of this concern. As Petraeus admitted this week U.S. forces are under "considerable" stress from repeated and lengthy combat missions. Our Armed Forces were already close to crisis prior to Secretary Gates announcement last April to increase troop deployments from 12 to 15 months. With President Bush now set to announce the reduction of troop deployments back to 12 months starting this summer, it is clear that this will do little to improve troop readiness or restore America's ability to address the full spectrum of threats, both at home and abroad.'

U.S. military growing weary of combat in Iraq. "Five years after the US-led invasion of Iraq, the US military is flagging under long and repeated deployments that have taken a toll on troops and hurt its readiness to deal with other crises. 'People are tired,' is the way Admiral Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, summed it up at a congressional hearing last month. In a meeting with Mr. Bush late last month the Joint Chiefs of Staff expressed deep concern about stress on the force, senior Defense Department and military officials said."











http://www.nsnetwork.org/node/585
:evilgrin:

[bobbolink]

1. the big mistake we Vietnam era protesters made was in lobbying to abolish the draft.

You're absolutely right... it's time to "spread the wealth", and bring back the draft.... for EVERYONE.

NO deferrments... no exceptions! EVERYONE!

[Mari333]

2. yeah!!! you betcha! its time. n/t

[yurbud]

4. if you started with skull & bones, there would be no draft

[bobbolink]

6. I'll say it's waaaay past time, but then... I'm a cranky old dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum!

:rofl:

:yourock:

[TahitiNut]

22. Yup. That's been my stance for over 40 years.

:shrug:

[JeanGrey]

36. That would be wonderful but you know as well as I do it will

never HAPPEN. It will never be "no exceptions".

[latebloomer]

74. How about NOT going into Afghanistan?

How about getting the hell out of the Middle East??

PS- I have a 17-year-old son and he will NOT be going to war, regardless of whether Obama thinks it's a wonderful idea.

[Selatius]

3. I won't support a draft. I see it as an issue of liberty.

If the people do not support a war, then drafting them will not necessarily make them good soldiers. The wars the British Empire engaged in were not something the American colonists wanted any part of, and the debts accrued came back them.

We spend 600+ billion each year on the military, yet when it comes to the Dept. of Education, we have "trouble" scrapping together 60 billion.

[bobbolink]

5. "Liberty" carries with it RESPONSIBILITY.

[Selatius]

8. Responsibility means disobeying unlawful orders, such as invading a country like Iraq.

For that, I cannot in good conscience support enabling the current course any longer.

The money could be used to rebuild New Orleans and the gulf coast, rebuild the nation's infrastructure, fighting poverty, providing affordable health care, providing opportunities for all. Instead, it is being used to smash bodies and lives and to saddle children and their children's children with untold debt.

[Mari333]

10. so do you support the 20,000 surge in afghanistan?

if you dont, then i understand not wanting a draft.
:hug:

[bobbolink]

11. RESPONSIBILITY means serving your country.....

You could do it as a CO, serving in other capacities, if you don't want to carry a gun(that would be *MY* option).

But claiming "liberty"... nope, that's a copout.

The Swiss have mandatory service, and it's kept them out of wars......

For many reasons, we need to do the same here.

NO EXCEPTIONS!

[Selatius]

15. That's NOT a copout. The Swiss? That's a cop-out answer.

They have a policy of neutrality as a matter of national policy.

I've already had one: Viet Nam.

I will not stand idly by and let something like that happen again. Imagine 40 years from now another moron like Bush getting into power but this time with the power of the draft. No way. If the US weren't an empire, I'd reconsider, but at current, it is an empire.

[bobbolink]

18. It WILL keep happening, until EVERYONE has a stake in the game!

This "liberty" libertarian crap is what is making it all possible!

[Selatius]

21. There was a fucking draft during Viet Nam, and it happened anyway.

My family suffered through that war. I lost relatives and good people because of that shitstorm of a war. You people here can be so damn insensitive.

[uppityperson]

45. The draft did not stop Viet Nam. There are other ways to stop wars than throw more bodies

into them.

No draft.

[bobbolink]

84. If you will remember that far back, people weren't yet "questioning authority"

Vietnam sparked the beginning of people learning to speak out against unjust governmental issues, and it took quite a while for that to gain steam.

MANY people NOW are suffering, but it's not nearly as visible, because it's poor folk, and people of color. The tragedy is that people don't speak out in behalf of others so much.. that's only us radical activists who mostly do that. It has to HIT THEM directly before they speak out!

Let there be many more muddleclass people and it will become much more visible and obviously WRONG.

You want to talk about insensitivity? You know, your charge against me is sooo hilarious, because DUers LOVE to tell me to stop being so sensitive..."Grow a skin" is the sweet way so many hear love to criticize. So, your criticism is just backlash because I'm talking about something you dont' want to hear.

Here's the insensitivity... I'm homeless and have been for quite a while because there is a severe lack of low-income housing. What PUSH do you see DUers give to that issue? What have YOU done about it?

You want me and others to care about you and your family (which we do), but I haven't seen any great effort on your part to do the same.

NOw, you wanted to take this to a personal criticism level, and I'm damned sick and tired of defending myself against misplaced anger. So I strongly suggest you cool a bit, and look at the less than perfect parts of you before making charges that are meant to hurt, but are only ridiculous.

OR>.. you can escalate the warfare.

[wuushew]

33. How would you establish fair wages for such a large pool of slaves?

Lets say they're 100 CO for every 10 grunts. Would positions be created to make work for all these people not interested in killing? Would productivity improvements or automation be allowed in the fields that conscientious objectors go into?

If a military organization can realize savings by not going through new training cycles every two years would it not have a vested interest in doing so to divert more money for killing?

You could end up having an imperial military AND a fucked up command economy instead of a pacifist society. Universal conscription didn't make the U.S.S.R any less aggressive.



America used to fully demobilize after each war she fought. Since the invention of the permanent military we have spread suffering far and wide.

[TahitiNut]

29. Good luck on that :unlawful order" thing. Let me know when a COURT agrees.

Unless and until folks actually carry through and obtain such a judgment in a court of law, it's just so much bullshit rhetoric. Posturing. Hot air.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

109. Forced Conscription does not = Liberty or Responsibility. eom

[Mari333]

7. i am only saying, the people who support obama's surge

i am sure they would be 100 percent for a draft, because i know they must be well informed and compassionate as to the trauma our troops are in now.

[Selatius]

9. Then let them volunteer. There is no need to mention "draft" in that sense.

[Mari333]

12. well, thats just it

a lot of them support the surge but dont want to enlist. or have their kids enlist.
theres the rub.

[bobbolink]

14. I say round up every Hummer driver and kids!!

:evilgrin:

[NNN0LHI]

23. Problem is I know some parents who would be tickled pink to have one of their kids drafted

The one mooching off them and living in the basement. They would buy all their buddies at the tavern a round just at the thought of it. Thats the way it was back during Vietnam too.

Don

[JeanGrey]

39. And many a kid has grown up in the service. There is no

doubt about it. I encouraged both of mine to look at the military as a possible. One son ended up in Job Corp and in the volunteer forest fighters and ended up in many states fighting fires. It snapped him up fast and matured him. The year he spent there did more to make him grow up than the five years previously.

[NNN0LHI]

44. Before Bush I used to recommend military service to young adults who inquired

Now I regret doing that. Bush just ruins everything he touches.

Don

[JeanGrey]

48. I don't go that far. I still think the military is a noble career and

can be good for many kids.

[bobbolink]

13. Yes, we're doing great with the "volunteer".... POOR FOLK!

Make everyone poor, so they have no options but to join the army.

:grr:

It's time to look at this with eyes open, instead of focused only on ourselves!!

[Selatius]

16. I believe in a second New Deal, but thanks for setting up a straw man to try to nail me with.

And that New Deal doesn't involve war or maintaining an unsustainable empire.

:eyes:

[bobbolink]

20. Two completely different things. Talk about strawman!

When EVERYONE knows they will have to serve, the Latte attitudes and the Hummer attitudes will change.

Until then, it will be the POOR folk who fight and die.

You're talking two different things... I'm sure you're aware of that.

[Selatius]

24. It's the same damn thing. If you spend on war, you don't spend on people.

Or as one person said to me, "More money for the war, less money for the poor."

[bobbolink]

27. You KNOW that's not what I'm saying!!

We don't have a draft now, and I don't see you compaining for low incme housing!

Outta time... you go..

[Selatius]

28. What the FUCK are you to accuse me of not complaining?

I've been forced to sleep in my car more than a few times in my damn life. You don't know me, so get off my fucking case.

[bobbolink]

86. No, I don't know you, and you don't know me. That didn't stop you from leveling charges at me.

The difference is that I'm not swearing at you.

It seems to me that the answer is for people who are basically on the same side to try to understand each other, rather than to shout and call names.

Look at your words.

How in the world do you expect countries in the Middle East to make peace with each other, when you choose to blast someone who shares most of your ideas and beliefs????????

I'm not making you an enemy. I'm stating to you that there is more than one way of looking at this, and some of us believe strongly that a "volunteer" (which is really isn't) armed force is NOT the way to have an involved electorate.

[bobbolink]

85. YEah, lots of blather about that.

I guess you didn't notice that they were still able to find 700 BILLION for the corporate bigwigs????

It's all a matter of priority, isn't it?

[uppityperson]

47. The poor suffer more during time of draft also.

I doubt you can or will read this, but want to express my thoughts anyway.

The rich and powerful can buy their kids way out of the draft. The poor can't. No draft. No how.

[newfie11]

34. Right on!

There is no way in hell I support a draft. We invaded a country that we had no legitimate reason to do so. Now to go into Afghanistan will only lead us into Pakistan and so on. This is insane and there will be no end !

[Phred42]

17. Vietman War ended when the 2-S deferment was ended.

Once almost ANYONE could get drafted the kids and their parents woke up.

This is why we should ALWAYS have a draft.

[Mari333]

19. Its always easier to send other peoples kids to war isnt it n/t

[bobbolink]

25. EXACTLY!

Making the responsibility lie on the shoulders of the people who are already invisible and people don't care about... it makes it easy for TPTB to USE them.... we ALL need to take responsibility!

[Lifetimedem]

26. I have always favored a draft

It was one of the few common generational experiences that transcended race, culture and social position ,

I love to hear the now aged men that were drafted discuss their common experiences and laugh or cry together.

They used to say you sent away a boy and got a man back .

BUT if it comes back there should be no excuses to opt out.. the day you are out of school, high school or college you should have to serve,both men and women, healthy and handicapped.

Todays world does not demand one be in top physical condition to serve in many positions .

[Mari333]

30. if people want a 20,000 troop surge to afghanistan

then they should be willing to have their sons and daughters drafted. the volunteer troops are at breaking point. that is all.

[Boojatta]

37. "there should be no excuses to opt out.. the day you are out of school, high school or college..."

Given that the Wright brothers didn't invent the airplane as part of a project at high school or college, they would have had no exemption from military service under your plan. However, if inventing the airplane would have simply been an excuse to avoid doing military service, then why is there an Air Force? Isn't the Air Force just an excuse to avoid being in the Army or the Marines?

[uppityperson]

50. The draft has NEVER transcend race, culture, social position, economics.

The rich and powerful were always able to pull strings to get their kids out.

"They used to say you sent away a boy and got a man back ." They lied. Being drafted does not make a man out of a person.

[Lifetimedem]

107. The service teaches discipline,

self control , responsibility and camaraderie . All developmental skills that we see less and less of with our indulged younger generation.


It is true that many of the powerful were able to avoid the draft, but many also did serve.

The first real integration experience of a generation was in the military during Vietnam.

[uppityperson]

108. The draft, however, FORCES people. There is a difference between learning and being forced

Why do many in the military dislike the draft, those who are forced into the military?

Having a draft is a good way to experience integration? Being forced into the military is a good way to learn discipline, self control, responsibility and camaraderie?

There are better ways. Ask those who are "backdoor drafted" now if that is true. As those who have been stop-lossed, or offere military or prison, etc. Ask Steven Green or Abeer (never mind, he raped, killed, mutilated her while in the military, where he was rather than prison).

No draft. No way.

[latebloomer]

75. Well, today you send a boy

and you get a destroyed hulk back, physically and emotionally.

If you're lucky.

[Lifetimedem]

103. PTS

Used to be called "Shell Shock" in another era, it is not a new condition .

Non military people,often suffer from it as well.


The military has been overworked in this administration.. on that we can agree

[latebloomer]

110. I used to work for the VA

and got a fair amount of training on it.

PTSD occurs during every war, During the Vietnam war they limited tours of duty to 12 months (13 for Marines) in an attempt to alleviate it, and it still was rampant.

Now, with people serving 3, 4, or 5 tours, I can't imagine how bad it is.

[elocs]

31. Well, the way this thread is deteriorating I think its another one to hide.

I am really, really growing weary of this place.

[Mari333]

32. how so? why weary?

its a legitimate question , the need for a draft in case of a surge.

[elocs]

83. It's not so much this particular question, but the DU attitude overall that is getting me weary.

The constant picking at and picking apart anything that Obama does.

As far as a draft goes, people with money and means will always find a way out (Bush, Cheney--what was the socio/economic makeup of our military in Vietnam?). A draft might make a good talking point here, but I never see it happening again and if Democrats propose it and support it they will pay the price for doing so. Besides, Obama has said that service to the community is just as legitimate national service as serving in the military. I shudder what to think what a president like Bush would have done with an army of over 500,000. Sure we have Obama now, but who is to predict that there is not another warmonger in the future. I wonder how many here would support a military draft if McCain would have won?

[JeanGrey]

35. What? I can't believe I am hearing this! After all these years of

a phony war fought for oil that we need to be out of, NOW you are saying Obama needs to reinstate the draft?

[Mari333]

38. only if he wants the 20,000 troop surge in Afghanistan n/t

[JeanGrey]

40. Well apparently he does as he has stated as such and I am

surprised that more people aren't upset about this. Why is a good thing under Obama and bad under anyone else?

[Mari333]

41. well,thats why I started the thread

I was curious as to whether people who supported the troop surge by Obama would also be in favor of supporting a draft, because of the dire circumstances concerning our troops. We certainly cannot continue a surge into Afghanistan with the troops we have.

[JeanGrey]

42. I can't believe we are even considering war on anyone.

Isn't that why we elected Obama?

[Mari333]

43. well, thats what i was hoping for

but I have read so many DUers supporting the escalation of war in Afghanistan and the troop surge, which Obama says he is going to do, but no one seems to remember the lack of troops we have or the circumstances they are in.
Ergo, I suggested a draft. I havent seen anyone who supports Obama's troop surge respond in the affirmative, however.

[JeanGrey]

46. This is blowing my mind. I can't believe that people

actually think this is a good idea.

[Mari333]

49. well, there are a lot of DUers who support Obama's troop surge

and Obama himself says hes going to send 20,000 more troops to Afghanistan. Troops that have been deployed 3 and 4 times already to Iraq and are ready to collapse. Thats why I asked the original question.

[Selatius]

51. The reality is he is going to get those 20,000 troops from Iraq. He won't touch the draft issue.

Let's say we send the 20,000 into Afghanistan, and a few months later Osama is found dead. What then? Are we going to spend tens of billions of dollars trying to fight Afghani guerrillas up in the mountains and try to rebuild the country at the same time?

[Mari333]

52. yes, he will get 20,000 weary weary weary troops from Iraq

who have been deployed 4 and 5 times over and over again. and will be redeployed again and again in Afghanistan.
Who are being used over and over til they are ready to drop.
I would think anyone with an ounce of compassion would think of the troops in this scenario, and demand a draft so that the troops can be replaced at some point.
That is, if they (anyone) supports the surge.

[uppityperson]

53. Do you think they will get misused in Afghanistan like they are in Iraq?

[Mari333]

54. deployed over and over? yes, theres no one to replace them

recruitment retention is all time low, as is enlistment. and the mental health problems now are epidemic amongst troops.

some real words from the troops:

http://ivaw.org/faq

Service members are facing serious health consequences due to our Government's negligence.
Many of our troops have already been deployed to Iraq for two, three, and even four tours of duty averaging eleven months each. Combat stress, exhaustion, and bearing witness to the horrors of war contribute to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a serious set of symptoms that can lead to depression, illness, violent behavior, and even suicide. Additionally, depleted uranium, Lariam, insufficient body armor and infectious diseases are just a few of the health risks which accompany an immorally planned and incompetently executed war. Finally, upon a soldier's release, the Veterans Administration is far too under-funded to fully deal with the magnitude of veterans in need.

[uppityperson]

55. Not just deployed but misused.

You need not lecture me on real words from troops as I know ones that have been in Iraq multiple times. You need not lecture me as I know ones with mental health issues, both from the Iraq debacle and the Viet Nam debacle (they were drafted).

Do you think they will get misused in Afghanistan like they are in Iraq? Do you think they will be treated better than they were in Viet Nam, when they were drafted?

[Mari333]

56. I personally think they will be deployed over and over again

because there is no one to replace them. Thats one of the issues a lot of people who support the surge seem to forget. They think there is some magic inexhaustable supply of troops out there . there isnt. There are weary tired insane guys out there who have been deployed over and over and over again who dont want to do this anymore.

[uppityperson]

57. I understand the deployment numerous times thing, but ALSO wonder if you ALSO think

they will be misused, like they are in Iraq, and like they were in Viet Nam when they were drafted.

[Mari333]

58. well, to begin with, deploying people 4 and 5 times is misuse

as for other benefits and perks, I would like to think that an Obama admin would put the troops first (benefits, body armour, pay, etc) , but how much good is that when they are used over and over again? what did you mean by misuse? deployment for year after year after year constitutes misuse to me, personally.

[uppityperson]

60. Lack of support, no clear mission, lack of support when they return home

Misused/assigned to things they weren't nec trained for or can actually do. Lack of support so when atrocities are done, they get covered up. Lack of support or mental health care while they are there. Lack of support when they return home to recover from the crap they experienced. Asking them to "take" a section, then pulling them back and making them "retake" it the next day. Sending troops to attack places and people that aren't a problem. etc.

yes, multiple deployments are misuse. Wondering about other types of misuse.

[Mari333]

62. well,I would hope that the misuse you describe

would not be as blatant. but when you have a lot of weary depressed overworked soldiers you are asking for trouble. I hope that our troops will be treated better now that Bush is going, but sending them to afghanistan is already, imo, in the shape they are in, a big mistake.

[uppityperson]

64. sending them to afghanistan is already, imo, in the shape they are in, a big mistake.

I agree. Having a draft would be a big mistake also. Too many believe the draft stopped VietNam, but it didn't. It won't stop a war now. And no, it would never be equitable.

For those who want a draft without loopholes, good luck. I will never believe those in power would authorize a draft with no loopholes. It won't happen.

Anyone who works for having a draft, I will fight you in any and every way I can. No draft. No how.

[bobbolink]

90. Sadly, as long as it's "them"... those people over there, it simply doesn't register.

When it becomes ALL of us, then we will think more about the issues you are raising!

[sam sarrha]

66. Afghanistan is Feudal lawless war lord cesspool.. it will not change till the population frees

themselves from Islam.. that will not happen.

its sad.. like that old car i had that i kept trying to fix over 2x times what it was worth.. sometimes you just got to wipe the tears and walk away.

[bobbolink]

89. It shouldn't surprise you. MANY of us have been saying this for a very long time now.

And there were those who were RIGHT decades ago when they disagreed with abolishing the draft.

[JeanGrey]

100. Well it DOES surprise me we elected Obama on an ANTI-war

platform and now he is getting support to start another one?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. It would cause "dying for your country" to lose popularity.

Better burnt draft cards than burnt bodies.

[zorahopkins]

61. NO More Troops ANY*HERE!

There should be NO more US Troops -- ANY*HERE!!

There is NO reason to have any US troops in Afghanistan.

It is time to bring the troops -- every single one ot them -- home -- NO*!

Dear President Obama -- *ar is NOT the ans*er! End this stupid, senselesss *ar -- NO*!

Bring the troops home!

note: I am protesting the continued occupation of our *hite House by the illegal and immoral Bush/Cheney regime of thugs and cronies, so I do not use the letter bet*een "V" nad "X".

[sam sarrha]

63. get the hell out of every muslim country and become independent of oil period. allah is Merciful and

deals properly with his own.. leave them to their own.

with a Manhattan type project for conservation, solar, wind, algae oil and hemp oil we can can become independent not only of arab oil but our own oil..

do it and do it quick.,, with a nationalized program and put all the profit to paying off ALL THE NATIONAL DEBT.. before we become slaves of the Chinese, forever.

with cheap/clean power we can make all our own shoes..etc be free and have an equatable bottom up economy

[latebloomer]

76. Totally agree!

I have been very disturbed by Obama's plans re Afghanistan.We need to end our involvement in the Middle East, and put our money and resources to new sources of energy, rebuilding the country, and thereby improving the economy.

[Thothmes]

65. Really do not think a draft

is in the cards. Democratic President, Democratic Congress = Draft (shades of LBJ and Vietnam). With the economy circling the drain, suspect that the lines will lenghten at the recruiters office without the incitive to reinstate conscription. I do not have any problems with a draft, just make it fair and universal.

[Mari333]

67. so, we can all count on the economy tanking

to replenish our war weary troops....

[Thothmes]

70. Would say that it is pretty well tanked as we speak

Also, army exceeded it recruiting goal for last quarter.

[Mari333]

71. yes, we allow convicted felons now.

so basically, if we let the economy tank even more, it will be good for the country, because then we will have this huge supply of really really poor people available to us to use for our occupations.
the corporatists must be delighted.

[Thothmes]

81. So did Lyndon Johnson.

I never infered that we should allow the economy to tank for the benefit of armed forces recruiting. In down economic times, the service sorta becomes the employer of last resort for a lot of young people that cannot find better work. IMO we are starting to see this occur.

[tritsofme]

68. Nobody hates the draft more than the military, and apparently no one hates being in power more than

you.

[Mari333]

69. um , okay. I have no idea what you meant.

nonetheless, the military is running out of options. and they cannot keep recycling kids over and over. something has to give.
namaste. :hug:

[tritsofme]

73. There's no greater cure for the ills of the Republican Party than having a Democratic President and

Congress reinstating the draft.

Selective Service is probably the single most hated government program in existence, and for that reason alone will never be reinstated except in the most extreme circumstances.

And the only ones who hate the draft more than voters are the military's top brass. They don't want to deal with a bunch of pissed off 18 year olds that want nothing to do with military service any more than their parents do.

[Witchy_Dem]

72. Your Signature, I'm Assuming, Is Freeperish?

As is this post.

You're either under 30, childless, or a right-winger. All three?

Bring them all home now.

[noamnety]

77. You are so far out of line with that post, I don't know where to begin.

With all due respect, you need to check yourself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x589501
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2275445

[Mari333]

78. there was method in my madness

a. I am against the war in Iraq.
b. I am against the war in Afghanistan and against the troop surge.
c. I am against any semblance of a draft.

Nonetheless, just as I suspected , no one who supports the surge of 20,000 troops to Afghanistan will support their own kids going.
peace out.

[Witchy_Dem]

80. My apologies then. I missed the whole tongue-in-cheek thing.

I also never do any research past or present on current posts so I took your word as what you believed contrary to the opinionated post in response to my question.

What's up with the link at the bottom of the OP?

[RedCappedBandit]

79. A message to anyone who wants to send me, or any of my peers, to war:

FUCK YOU.

War is wrong. No exceptions. There is one way to prevent war. Peace. Hence, I am a pacifist. I refuse to kill in the name of nationalism.

[Shiver]

82. Curious...

What about those that don't want peace?

[RedCappedBandit]

91. You try to make a great point, but you fail

Obviously, if there were a great demand for the defense of our freedoms, people would be willing to sign up. The current situation, however, as is the case with most wars, has nothing to do with defending liberty. It is imperialistic, greed motivated war mongering. Therefore, proposing a draft, even as a means to discourage further war mongering, puts innocent lives at risk for no reason. This is unacceptable.
By the way, the only people who don't want peace are the power hungry pigs like those running our very own country. These are the same people who would support drafting the powerless masses to do their bidding for their own personal gain.

[Shiver]

92. I wasn't trying to make a point, great or otherwise.

It was an honest question.

There are many who don't want peace, those you mention among them. Those that take delight in fear and chaos. Those who take power through bloody coups. Sociopaths and serial killers. What do you do about them? They won't accept the peace you wish, and forcing peace on them is antithetical to the idea.

Your anger is counter-productive.

[RedCappedBandit]

93. I don't think it is counter productive

That isn't to say it is productive, either. It is just a rather useless response to the fact that people on a place like DU that i call my "internet home" if you will would be willing to send me to war, to make a political point or otherwise. It's a rather reasonable response, IMO.
As for sociopaths.. yes, I am aware of their existence. I don't think they exist in large enough numbers to bring about a violent society in general, though. I am of the opinion that if we preach peace and love from a young age, the overall culture will reflect that. Unfortunately, our society is one that embraces violence and hatred far too frequently, hence the world in which we live is not a peaceful place.

[Shiver]

94. Controlled, focused anger can be productive...

...provided it's guided into a proper form through a proper outlet (I prefer writing and painting, personally). It's only useless when unfocused - anger for the sake of anger, or anger because it's easy

I don't disagree with your opinion on the draft, however; the draft, for any reason, is a foolish idea, especially if used purely for symbolic/political purposes. Personally, I support mandatory civil service, be it with the armed forces, local communities, teaching, Peace Corps, whatever - it'd be up to the individual. That's beside the point, of course.

Sociopaths are a rarity, yes, but they have the potential to do great harm, in small communities and large countries.

There is something to be said with starting people on the path to peace young; personally, I'm a strong advocate for achieving peace with oneself and letting it reflect upon the rest of the world. Good attitude, good actions - they all build up, growing slowly but strongly. Anger merely builds quickly into a great crescendo, gaining attention but usually negative.

(BTW, I'm in a bit of a literary/philosophical zone right now, so forgive me if this seems very meandering or stream-of-consciousness...)

[RedCappedBandit]

97. You and I are in agreement, then

:hi:
I support the idea of civil service, as well. However, I'm not sure it is a good idea to let the government mandate any sort of service.. people "should" just want to volunteer when they are able to do so. I plan on doing americorps, followed by peace corps, during an interim between college and grad school.

[bobbolink]

95. So, you want "peace" but you call people like me "power hungry pigs"

:crazy:

[RedCappedBandit]

98. ...

a) I don't know who you are and never addressed you
b) Unless you're a power hungry pig, no, I wouldn't call you one
c) People who start wars typically do so to gain power. Can you even show me an instance where this is not the case? In the post you responded to, I already made it clear that defending yourself against an aggressor is perfectly acceptable, so there will be no need to bring up such a situation again.
d) If you don't support peace, are you sure you belong on DU? If you do support peace, i have no idea why you would have even made the assumption that i was referring to you, or anybody on this thread, as a power hungry pig.

One last question. How does calling anyone a power hungry pig contradict the fact that I want peace? :)

[bobbolink]

101. whoa...... you need to rethink your committment to peace!

You have taken off on all kinds of assumptions, and are obviously really angry about this topic.

I again suggest that you READ the logic that we are talking about, rather than going to war against people who are on your side.

Calling us all "power hungry pigs" because we see a rationale in re-instituting the draft.... not only over the top, but certainly not what I'd call "peaceful".

Furthermore, suggesting that I don't "belong at DU" is against the rules, and VERY unpeaceful. I deserve an apology for that, and if you keep it up, you can be sure I will alert on this breaking of the rules.

Have a fine day.. and try to take a deep breath before insulting more DUers, eh?

[RedCappedBandit]

102. Yeah.. that was kind of my point

I wasn't calling you, or any DUer, a power hungry pig. I was calling people who want war power hungry pigs. I understand that, even those here advocating a draft, WANT peace. We just have different methods of achieving it. I thought I made that pretty clear, hence my defensive post.
I suggested that you didn't belong here only if you truly thought you did not want peace, which is what you would have implied by suggesting I was calling you a power hungry pig. Not going to apologize because you tried to call me looney for calling out DUers when I did no such thing.
It is clear that this is all a misunderstanding, and my response was simply my attempt at pointing that out.

[superduperfarleft]

87. If you support the war on the Afghan people, you should enlist.

Same thing we've told Iraq war supporters over the years. There's no difference.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

88. If we didn't wage unnecessary or illegal wars, the draft shouldn't even be an issue. Our troops work

for the Industrial Military Complex and the war in Afghanistan is No Different!

BTW.... How many draft age kids do you have? I have two and I don't want them to be fodder for bullshit.

[bobbolink]

96. The draft should ALWAYS be an issue.

Everyone has responsibility for their country.

People should all grow up knowing that, and knowing what that entails.

Maybe it would be good for you to read the rest of this thread, and understand the thought behind it, before emotionally yelling "Bullshit"

[RedCappedBandit]

99. Agreed

"using" the draft to teach people that war shouldn't be such a widely accepted "solution" is a terrible idea IMO. We don't need to put innocent lives at risk to rid our society of the ignorance inherent in any mindset that would support war.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

104. No Draft!!!

This whole war is bullshit! It was based on a lie! There were no WMDs in Iran. We were gotten into this war by GWBs insane desire to top Daddy's little Desert Storm adventure. My spouse and I will emigrate to Canada if this obscenity is reinstated. Why in the hell should our young people die in a war for the Military Industrial Complex. Who died and left the US gov't. as God?

[Mari333]

106. title is : afghanistan not iraq. hugs.

[OhioChick]

105. Screw that.

Bring home ALL of our military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan now. (My thoughts without talk of a draft, BTW)

[lies and propaganda]

111. MY BIL leaves for his third tour tomm..

In the last six months his job went from Aapache helicopter mechanic as it always was.. to lead convoy driver, to fucking GUNNER on the lead convoy truck. Its like they want him to die.

|He developed a stutter after his third tour and the doc just told him he needs shoulder surgery for a torn rotator cuff, which his Sfgt said was elective so they ship out tomm.

I am with you. Poor Southern kids shouldnt be the only thing that fight for this country.

[bobbolink]

113. My thoughts are with you, and your BIL!!!

this is sooo sad, and so criminal!

I truly believe that if there were a draft, this would NOT be happening, because the American people would NOT stand for this... if it involved them more deeply!

:patriot: :pals: :patriot:

[Mari333]

114. (((((hugs))))))))

I went thru this in 2004. michael is home now. they almost send my other son bobby.
just huge huge hugs
:hug:

[Joe Fields]

112. Absolutely no draft, PERIOD!

Would not even consider it. Not with either of these two wars we are in. What we NEED instead is cooperation from the U.N., plus a commitment from neighbors in the region to help stabilize Iraq. A hell of a lot of diplomacy will be required to do this, but it is preferable to a draft, which I would strenuously oppose.