NOBODY is to blame for the Walmart death

[mudesi]

What is it with this obsessive need for people to place blame for every single tragedy? For crying out loud. Sometimes things happen. Blame God if you believe in him.

Walmart could not have predicted a stampede that would result in a death. Could they have taken more precautions? Sure. It may still well have happened anyway.

Similarly, nobody in the crowd intended to trample someone to death. Once a crowd starts moving, it becomes physically impossible to stop. Let me say that again: It is physically impossible to stop a surging crowd. Either you step on the person on the floor, or you trip and fall yourself to be stepped on. It's that simple.

It was an accident. Nobody is to blame.

Jesus.

[Romulox]

1. It will be simple to demonstrate to a jury that this accident was foreseeable, and that Wal Mart was

in the best position to prevent it.

Save "blame" for your conscience, or your church. It doesn't take Perry Mason to see that Wal Mart will be found liable.

[ColbertWatcher]

3. Thank you. n/t

[liberal N proud]

14. It has been years coming

They build the hype year after year for black Friday. This incident was inevitable.

[yellerpup]

36. That is a beautiful illustration in your sig line.

Wow!

[liberal N proud]

62. The pouting republican

[yellerpup]

63. Looks just like a Puglian I know!

He's pouting hard and whining loud these days! I am on constant gloat alert around him. (I may not be a better person, but I want to appear as if I am! :rofl:)

[Deja Q]

15. Wal-mart has insurance, but as we throw in jail the man who gives the first punch

and not the other man who eggs on that punch...

[LostinVA]

2. It wasn't an accident -- Wal-Mart is legally liable

[ColbertWatcher]

4. Thank you. n/t

[Earth_First]

5. I blame the difficult economic situation that alot of folks are in...

But that's just me.

[ColbertWatcher]

17. That's what I originally thought, too.

But, after seeing photos of the store (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4554275&mesg_id=4554814), watching aerial video of the line (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=245807&mesg_id=245807), reading some stuff about crowd control (http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Crowddisasters.html) and reading about the Hillsborough disaster (http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm)...

There's simply too much information about crowd stampedes in the past and in Wal-Mart's history (YouTube video of 2006, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3eUiMHtPgQ">YouTube video of 2007) for any reasonable and responsible corporation to ignore.

Wal-Mart is clearly negligent.

They're just lucky the GOP-controlled media falls asleep on the weekends.

[earthlover]

31. People really hurting in this economy were NOT in this line!

They couldn't afford to be there, were home trying to put food on the table. Get it yet?

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

6. Blame or no

It's a grisly image blankly depicting and indicting the System.

Such a long way to fall, too.

[BeatleBoot]

7. People expect to not get trampled at places of commerce.

Therefore, the onus is on the store to prevent it.

But I digress to COMMON SENSE!

[ColbertWatcher]

27. Exactly. n/t

[AndyTiedye]

8. Who could have predicted that shoppers would bust down the door to get to a "door-buster special"?

The very name "door-buster special" condemns them!

If you are going to advertise a special, SELL the product at the special price to whomever shows up.
Give rain checks if you sell out. Anything else is both deceptive and dangerous.

[DS1]

9. You mean they couldn't have predicted the stampede that happens EVERY YEAR?

morans have taken over DU

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

11. Negilgent homicide anyone?

It probably wouldn't stick, but the manager of that Walmart is on the hook for his worker's death.

And of course there's the civil case that will be raised by that woman who miscarried as a result of the stampede...

[LisaL]

13. The woman did not miscarry.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

16. Oh, well that's good.

I stand corrected.

[oldnslo]

26. But if she does.....

She did not miscarry YET, but ya wanna bet, if she does at any time during this pregnancy, she might try to pin it on Wally Mart? Deep pockets syndrome rides again.....

[ColbertWatcher]

21. I don't think the store manager is responsible.

If you look at this video from a Wal-Mart in Elk City, Oklahoma (also on November 28, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw18_16AGv4) they also have just one guy at the door.

It looks like it's Wal-Mart's company policy.

[Art_from_Ark]

68. Cool video

I just might know the manager of that store.

[mudesi]

33. And how many people have been trampled to death over the years?

Oh, right. One.

[ColbertWatcher]

35. 96 in Sheffield England, 1989. 11 in Cincinnati, 1974. And many others. n/t

[Bake]

59. Yeah, but the Cinci thing was a Stones concert

So that makes it entirely different.

:sarcasm:

Bake

[DS1]

38. what a stunning lack of common sense you possess

[ColbertWatcher]

10. "It is physically impossible to stop a surging crowd." Which is why most venues have crowd control.

To prevent a crowd from forming.

Wal-Mart did not.

Despite many examples of this having happened in the past.

Wal-Mart is liable and they deserve a day in court.

So does Jdimytai Damour.

[Idealism]

12. Unless its a death by natural causes, somebody is ALWAYS to blame

You can't go shopping, perfectly functioning and healthy, all the sudden die, and have their be no blame. And you seriously want to bring God into Wal-Mart? Really??

[Stardust]

18. I've been trying to counter the blame-the-crowd crowd with the same argument,

to no avail. Everyone just seems hell-bent on characterizing the shoppers as greedy killers, but obviously they weren't. As far as Wal-Mart goes, well, let's hope they've learned a lesson about crowd control.

:cry: for Mr. Damour.

[ColbertWatcher]

23. It reminds me of all the people who ...

... got loans for houses getting blamed for the mess on Wall Street.

I guess some corporations are too big to fail and some corporations are too big to blame.

[ZombieHorde]

32. Someone in that crowd made the decision to push other people.

Someone thought that it was a good idea to push strangers. People who intentionally push strangers are the type of people who intentionally push strangers.

[ColbertWatcher]

39. And you can tell who they are by their look. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

50. No, I can not tell who they were, but my point was not about punishment.

[Chan790]

41. It's a lesson they should have learned by now...

I've read articles posted here for the last three Christmas seasons/"Black Fridays" in a row about people being injured in stampedes at Wal-Marts and other large box-store retailers. How many years in a row does it have to happen before they should have learned that lesson and can/should be held liable?

This death was foreseeable...it's not unreasonable for Wal-mart to be held culpable, criminally and civilly. Frankly, I feel the punitive damages of any resultant lawsuit need to be great enough to actually hurt Walmart...minimally it should seriously hurt their holiday season 2008 profits. (So yes, I want to give Mr. Damour's family >$500M. Let the Walton heirs feel actual pain and this will never happen again.)

As for the individual shoppers...we charge rioters too. Individuals in a mob do not cease to be responsible for their personal conduct simply because they're part of a mob.

[KittyWampus]

19. Walmart and any expert in crowd control certainly could've predicted it would happen

There's a long history documented in videos you can see on Youtube showing people falling in similar stampedes at Walmart and elsewheres.

[oldnslo]

20. Some effing accident

Yeah, it was an "accident", if accident can be defined as "nobody" ripping the doors off their mountings, and "nobody" running over each other to get a dumbassed discount on some dumbassed store product. I guess we should be grateful there were no gun-toters in that crowd, or somebody might have got hurt.
Somebody in that goddamned crowd started the ball rolling. Punish them as they gave. Simple and fair.

[ColbertWatcher]

25. Please read some info on crowd control.

1. the first one is from a security company that specializes in crowd control (http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Crowddisasters.html). Pay special attention to the section called "Stampedes."

2. this next one is a memorial site for people who died in Hillsborough stadium in 1989 (http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm)

3. this final link is a DU link to some pictures of the Wal-Mart store in Valley Stream before and after Damour's death. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4554275&mesg_id=4554814)

[lib2DaBone]

22. This case is a slam dunk. They are going to sue the crap out of Wal-Mart..

.... and I hope they win.

[undeterred]

24. Nobody foresaw anyone flying planes into the World Trade Center.

:sarcasm:

Except some people did.

I don't go to places where there are uncontrolled crowds because I am afraid of this kind of thing. Its dangerous and it happens often enough that Walmart should have been prepared for it.

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. you've never worked at wal-mart

a stampede was not only expected, it was planned-for.

[davidinalameda]

29. when you have unsafe conditions that existed

you have plenty of people to blame

this did not happen in a vacuum

[Warpy]

30. Offering deals on understocked items

that everybody out there knows are sucker bait is the problem.

Of course you're going to have people lining up in the wee hours, hoping to be the first to sprint to the back of the store for the two or three sale items in stock, shoving other people out of the way to do so.

That's the recipe for disaster, right there.

[Edweird]

34. Nonsense. Some selfish assholes started pushing and started this.

The jerks that refused to wait their turn and tried to rush things killed that guy, plain and simple.

[ColbertWatcher]

40. I posted some links about crowd control in post #17 above. n/t

[Edweird]

42. I've read dozens of links about crowd control. The lack of crowd control

doesn't equate to suspension of common decency and consideration. Of course, walmart will get crucified over this, but they are an easy target with deep pockets. Every lawyer out there sees dollar signs, and every politician sees an opportunity to 'grandstand'.

"There was nobody there to stop them" is not, in my non-lawyer opinion, any kind of excuse for ANYTHING, much less killing someone. It's a cop out, a way to shift blame.
I'm no fan of walmart. I'm not defending them. I just don't think they are guilty of anything.

"It is physically impossible to stop a surging crowd." I don't doubt that. I don't dispute any of the facts about 'surges' and 'mobs' and what-have-you.
My point is that the blame lies in the 'why' and 'how' the crowd surged in the first place. People pushing impatiently because things were not moving quickly enough for them. There was no fire, no fight, no nothing, just greedy jerks thinking only of themselves. If they were INSIDE and a fire broke out, this would be totally different.

It would also probably be just as 'physically impossible' to stop a Chevy Suburban that I put in neutral and let roll down a big hill. When it hits and kills someone, can I say "it was just too powerful to be stopped"? How about "there was nobody there to stop me"? Or could I just shrug and say "it was nobody's fault"? Would that be acceptable?

[ColbertWatcher]

52. Did you click on the Hillsborough link? n/t

[Skittles]

37. LOL

uh, yeah, OK

[Bluebear]

44. LOL

It's amazing, idn't it?

[Skittles]

48. the stupidity on DU sometimes amazes me more than that of the Freak Republic

yes INDEED

[gravity]

43. Sometimes shit just happens

If Walmart or anyone in the crowd knew that their actions could have resulted in a death, this wouldn't have happened.

[Edweird]

47. Based on the actions and statements of the shoppers when they KNEW somone was killed,,

I doubt that. They didn't give a shit and were annoyed by the inconvenience.

[mudesi]

54. That's exactly what I am saying (nm)

[Bluebear]

45. "Walmart could not have predicted a stampede that would result in a death." - OK, Condaleezza

[LostinVA]

46. NOBODY is to blame for the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory deaths

What is it with this obsessive need for people to place blame for every single tragedy? For crying out loud. Sometimes things happen. Blame God if you believe in him.

The Triangle Shirtwaist owners could not have predicted a stampede that would result in deaths. Could they have taken more precautions? Sure. It may still well have happened anyway.

Similarly, nobody in the crowd intended to trample someone to death. Once a crowd starts moving, it becomes physically impossible to stop. Let me say that again: It is physically impossible to stop a surging crowd. Either you step on the person on the floor, or you trip and fall yourself to be stepped on. It's that simple.

It was an accident. Nobody is to blame.

Jesus.

[AZBlue]

49. Walmart & those who trampled him are to blame and it could have been prevented.

I just don't see how anyone could feel otherwise.

[TexasObserver]

51. You're wrong. Walmart is to blame.

My opinion is based upon the law.

Your opinion is based upon your personal sense of blame, which is peculiar to you.

[Blarch]

53. What a joke.

"Walmart could not have predicted a stampede that would result in a death. "

Like they never saw a stampede on black Friday before ? ...Lets be honest now.

[npk]

55. Some are convinced flow charts could have prevented the tragedy.

Some people are convinced that flow charts and more security would have stopped 40 people that were banging on doors so hard they broke them down and then rushed a guy that they clearly could see was right in front of them. Yeah those are the kind of people that are just going to wait calmly behind a rope because some nerd with a flow chart is telling them to. Funny how some people's hatred for a business can cloud their thinking. If you really think flow charts would have prevented this tragedy then you have a lot of trouble reading between the lines.

[Bluebear]

56. "Some people"? Who? Who said anything about a flow chart?

[Terran]

57. Wal Mart could have easily predicted it

because it's happened before--just last year. Only nobody got killed.

[Swamp Rat]

58. Crowd control devices like steel barricades and retractable stanchions are a longtime industry.

For example:
http://www.crowdcontrolwarehouse.com/?gclid=CIHyuIyhoJcCFQNKxwodbyRzUA
http://www.blockader.com

Wal-Mart should have used the proven method for crowd control:

[Bake]

60. Wasn't the vic a WalMart employee? No lawsuit.

Just a big Worker's Compensation claim.

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. It's called "five minute hate."

Not "five minute think it through."

Jesus, what's wrong with you?

[donco6]

64. Why is it that I always disagree with your posts?

It's a phenomenon I don't experience with anyone else.

[mudesi]

65. Are you conservative?

Because that might explain it. :evilgrin:

[Bluebear]

69. Strange, ain't it?

[donco6]

70. Not you, too?

Well, us and 99% of this thread. Chee-rist.

[uppityperson]

66. WalMart could have predicted people would push and be unruly and have crowd control.

They didn't. end of message

[Breeze54]

67. Walmart is to blame. They did NOT have adequate police there.

:(

It was an avoidable "accident" and Walmart is definitely to blame.

[Hanse]

71. Agreed

As much as I'd like to blame Walmart and point fingers, I can't.

I don't see any reason why Walmart should have expected their sale to turn violent.

I haven't heard any good reason except for Monday morning quarterbacking as to why Walmart is liable.

[specimenfred1984]

72. Nobody tortured anybody either and Iraq's full of WMD!

And Southern rock sucks as do the people who listen to it.