Girl dies on cold walk; dad charged with murder

[cali]

6 hours ago

TWIN FALLS, Idaho (AP) — An Idaho man has been charged with second-degree murder after his 11-year-old daughter died walking in the snow after their vehicle got stuck.

Fifty-five-year-old Robert Aragon of Jerome banged his head on the table Monday in court.

Sage Aragon and her 12-year-old brother, Bear, were being driven to their mother's house in West Magic on Christmas when the truck got stuck in the snow.

Authorities say the father let the children out to walk the 10 miles to their mother's house. They say he drove back to Jerome after freeing his vehicle.

The worried mother called police. The boy was found that day and survived, and the girl's frozen body was found the next morning.

Temperatures ranged from 5 degrees below zero to 27 above.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hb-VFoUeYKIJdSPEqW5Jrm5Jc0owD95CP8CO0

Wo what do you think? Are the charges warranted? They sure are in my book.

[Drunken Irishman]

1. Yes.

What kind of man leaves his children alone in the cold like that and tells them to walk 10 miles?

Lock him up and throw away the key.

[Joe the Liberal]

2. Wow.......

What a great father :sarcasm:

Couldn't he have just unstuck his truck and then driven them the rest of the way?

[Chulanowa]

3. I believe they are

He dumped his kids into a potentially fatal situation (well, more than potentially, tragically) and then to top it off, did not follow up. Had he actually tried to catch up with them after freeing his car, then I could see him as at least somewhat sympathetic, if not that bright.

But he left them there. If it wasn't possible for him to go any further past where he got stuck, then he should have kept the kids with him.

God damn.

[Skittles]

4. that is hideous negligence

absolutely criminal indeed

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. The charges sure as HELL are warranted.

But he'll be punishing himself for the rest of his life, I'm sure.

[Drunken Irishman]

8. Or by someone else in prison.

They do have a code in there and many prisoners are fathers that love their children and if they find out what this fuck did, he's either going to be killed, or severely beaten.

[arcadian]

28. Is it like the Carny code?

Prison code... please.

[Drunken Irishman]

49. Oh don't be naive.

If you don't think there is a chain in prison, you're fooling yourself.

And child abusers/murderers are right at the bottom.

[Maru Kitteh]

108. It's like the pirate code man, I saw it in this movie with Jhonny Depp.

But really, they're more like guidelines.

[LeftyMom]

150. That's absolutely true.

Men who are known to be in prison for a crime related to child abuse either don't make it back out or wish they hadn't. After all, a disproportionate number of men in prison are abuse survivors.

I don't know if the same is true for women. They're less violent, almost all are in on drug charges.

[sandnsea]

6. I'd bet he was drunk

I can't imagine anybody sober dumping their kids off in that kind of cold. Unreal what people will do.

[fizzgig]

7. what a rat bastard that man is

what kind of father does that?

shit, what kind of person does that?

[JI7]

9. at first i felt bad for the guy and thought this was wrong

until i read that he had them walk out alone while he still tried to get his car to work.

just disgusting.

yes they are warranted.

[depakid]

10. More detailed information here:

http://www.sunvalleyonline.com/news/article.asp?ID_Article=6175

The daughter was wearing a down jacket, pajama bottoms and snowboots.

[cali]

12. Unfuckingbelievable.

There was another adult in the car. And no one notified the authorities util 7 pm on Christmas night, hours and hours after the kids had been wandering around in a blizzard in frigid temps.

[uppityperson]

47. The boy was wearing only his long johns, after discarding his jacket and shoes. (picts here...)

(text/words from OP )
Bear Aragon was found here, at a BLM restroom, 4.3 miles from his father's car.


This view looks east along West Magic Road, one mile from Highway 75, approximately where Sage Aragon's body was found, at far right, early Friday morning.

[LisaL]

133. The child probably got delusional from the cold and that is why

he discarded some of his clothes. I think if you are close to freezing to death you start feeling as if you are hot.

[uppityperson]

134. That was my thought also, getting hypothermic.

Had frostbite on his leg, story says. Those poor children.

[JerseygirlCT]

182. Two adults?

Man, it gets even worse.

[Mind_your_head]

11. Don't EVER find yourself in a tough situation........even though we've been shown

Katrina, et al....we're "on our own". Don't make a mistake (even though you *I* know NOTHING of survival techniques..."what does 'technique' mean, the child who wasn't left behind asks?)

:-(

[cali]

15. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Katrina

I have no idea what point you were trying to make with your word salad post, but having lived in Northern Vermont for almost 3 decades, I do know quite a bit about winter survival. I would NEVER EVER EVER let any child hazard the conditions these kids were set loose in. Hell, I wouldn't let an 11 or 12 year old venture off unescorted on a 10 mile hike in the best of conditions.

[WinkyDink]

20. Your point? IT WAS TEN FRICKIN' MILES FOR A FREEZING CHILD, FGS.

[recoveringrepublican]

21. huh? He just made a tough situation worse. I grew up in North Dakota

Many times I was in a disabled vehicle. My parents kept me in the damn car until either the car got back on the road, or another one came to get us. There was no reason for these children to be walking by themselves. If anything the fact they didn't show up at their mother's would have sent people out looking for the entire party. This was lazy parenting, not a victim of circumstance.

[uppityperson]

48. Me too. You don't walk away from the car.

You can survive much longer inside than outside. Esp wandering down a road in a blizzard in a rural area. 10 miles?!? In a blizzard? Good lord. There is something seriously wrong there.

[pnwmom]

67. The father sent them off, and when the car was working again -- he didn't go

after them, but he went home instead. And he didn't even call the mother to tell her he'd abandoned them in the freezing cold.

He was probably drunk.

And yes, he deserves the sentence.

[Maru Kitteh]

111. What the FUCK are you talking about?

[uppityperson]

114. It's the Sheriff of Rottingham!

[Maru Kitteh]

129. .

:rofl:

[yardwork]

171. Did you read the article? The father took care of himself and condemned his children to death.

He stayed warm freeing his vehicle and drove home. He sent his children on a ten mile walk in below-zero temperatures.

[MrSlayer]

13. That is something you do to someone who harmed your daughter.

That is not something you do to your daughter. This guy should hang.

[Mind_your_head]

16. self-delete

[Berry Cool]

14. Charges completely warranted.

What he did makes no logical sense in any way, shape or form.

[The_Commonist]

17. Not warranted.

Manslaughter, not murder.

[cali]

22. well, it depends on how the laws are written in Idaho

as to whether it constitutes murder. Intent to kill is not always part of the legal definition of murder.

[DevonRex]

39. Allowing your kids to walk 10 miles in a blizzard isn't manslaughter.

That's murder.

[supernova]

75. I hope you never reproduce

edited: not worth it.

[The_Commonist]

113. That's a "Stunningly Superficial" response.

Sorry... been having fun with that one today.

So, you're going to take out your anger on people who probably essentially agree with you on most things? That's OK, I can take it. Did you happen to read the definitions below? Basically, murder is the result of some form of assault as well as intent, while manslaughter is more likely due to gross negligence, which seems like the case here. The penalties can be just as severe for manslaughter, and should be in this case. If they can prove intent, then it's murder.

But since I imagine you are not interested in arguing about semantics, I'll just await the smarm...

(p.s. I have reproduced, and they've all grown into quite lovely young adults!)

[Gwendolyn]

121. Looks like the charges also include felony injury... so guess they have it covered?

[LisaL]

176. I think felony injury charge might be for the son.

The second degree murder charge is for the daughter, obviously.

[Gwendolyn]

183. Oh yes, I didn't say it well.

I meant that even if the more severe murder charge didn't stick, probably they'd at least get him on the felony injury. :)

[aikoaiko]

18. I would have thought manslaughter would be the charge but it depends on state code.

From http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

Manslaughter
The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

Manslaughter is a distinct crime and is not considered a lesser degree of murder. The essential distinction between the two offenses is that malice aforethought must be present for murder, whereas it must be absent for manslaughter. Manslaughter is not as serious a crime as murder. On the other hand, it is not a justifiable or excusable killing for which little or no punishment is imposed.

Second Degree Murder
second degree murder n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility. Second degree murder is different from First Degree Murder which is a premeditated, intentional killing, or results from a vicious crime such as arson, rape, or armed robbery. Exact distinctions on degree vary by state.

Either way, I hope he is guilt ridden every day he spends in prison and may there be many days.

[demodonkey]

19. According to the news report the surviving boy's legal first & middle names are "Bear Moonshine"...

...Sticking him with that as a name for life is child abuse. Seriously. Small wonder that a parent who is that thoughtless would also allow his children to leave their car and walk 10 miles in a blizzard in their pajamas.

Sickening.

[marshall]

27. When you live in a community called West Magic names like that sound normal

I would imagine the town was started in the 60's by hippies fleeing the big city. They're all probably still wearing tie-dyed shirts and using 70s lingo that would make the Brady Bunch look modern.

[truedelphi]

53. Hey I was a hippie and I resent that

The commune I lived in TOOK IN People that the police didn't know what to do with.

One time there was a 93 year old man living in his truck, 20 degree weather and worse in Central WI. Social Services was closed for four days over a holiday weekend. The police knew we'd help and brought him to us. We took him in, gave him his own room and tried to persuade him to stay. A delightful guy, full of vim and vigor once we warmed him up and gave him a few meals. Stories and songs and total gentleness.

He said he didn't want to impose, and left at 2Am the third night in our care. We went out trying to find him and never did. Nor could the police locate him after that either.

We may have worn tie dye but we were not idiots or neglectful!!

[semillama]

154. I think the family is Native American, from the photos.

So "Bear Moonshining" isn't that odd a name in that context.

[Fumesucker]

23. Something that boggles my mind is this:

No one stopped to help a child (or children) walking in a blizzard?

There aren't enough details to tell but I'm guessing the kids walked by the road..

[LisaL]

24. WTF are you talking about?

I sincerely doubt anyone else was driving by and then didn't stop.

[Fumesucker]

30. They were out there for hours...

*Zero* traffic passed by?

I find that hard to believe.

[LisaL]

31. Yea, I am sure the cars were just zipping by out there in the snow.

:eyes:
Take a look at some photos of the area.
http://www.newwest.net/city/article/idaho_girl_dies_in_blizzard_father_charged_with_murder/C108/L108/

[Fumesucker]

35. I realize everyone wants to hate on the dad..

That's quite understandable..

But to acknowledge that some other people probably just drove by these kids makes it harder to focus the hate purely on the father.

FWIW, I spent the night in a car stuck in a snowdrift with my dad and younger brother when I was about 13, I have personal experience of a very similar situation.. If we had run out of gas we quite possibly would have frozen to death.

[LisaL]

36. Give me a break. Did you look at the photos?

The road doesn't exactly look full of cars if you get my drift.
I fail to see how you can "acknowledge" that some other cars drove by when you have no evidence to support that whatsoever.

[Fumesucker]

37. It's not hard to get photos of empty roads, even in places where there is considerable traffic..

We know for an absolute fact that there was at least one vehicle on that road, why are you so resistant to admitting there could easily have been more than one?

At any random moment I could walk out in front of my house on a road that ends in a cul-de-sac and take a picture with a strong likelihood that there will be no cars in the picture, and yet there are at least a hundred cars a day that pass my home.

[uppityperson]

50. Georgia isn't Idaho. Have you ever been in a blizzard? I have. Grew up in midwest and you DON'T leav

you do NOT leave your car in a blizzard. You do NOT send an 11 and 12 yr old out to walk home, 10 miles, in a blizzard, in boots, pj pants and coats. Blizzard means high winds, snow, you can't see any distance, blowing snow smooths out any tracks. Temp is low, windchill makes people colder faster. No, if you want your kids to catch a ride with someone, you have them wait WITH the car, then flag down a passing car.

Their car was stuck in a snow drift that blocked the road. Why do you assume other cars were passing by? If any did, the kids would be much more likely to survive if they stayed WITH the stuck car and flagged someone down, rather than sending them out into the freezing temps and hoping someone driving by would stop.

[Seldona]

72. We drive our kids to the bus stop and wait below 20 degrees.

With windchill exposed skin can freeze in minutes at the temps involved here.

I have been stuck with kids in the car in a blizzard. It never entered my mind to have them do anything but sit in front of the heaters and wait while I tried to get moving again.

This was pre-cellphone, so we all left to go to a house about a half mile away to use their phone. They were not only kind enough to keep the kids at the house, but the other father and I took his truck and got my car out.

This is just ignorant and tragic on so many levels.

[uppityperson]

78. Here is Wind Chill chart, for those who don't know about such things.

Growing up in the midwest, in the winter the news would report how long it would take for exposed flesh to freeze. As a child, I couldn't understand how they figured this out. Did they really send a naked person outside and time how long it took to turn into an icicle?





http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/conversion/windchillchart.html

Wind chill temperature is defined as that temperature in calm air which provides the same chilling effect on a person as that for a particular combination of temperature and wind. The chart below allows you to estimate the wind chill temperature for a variety of temperature and wind speeds. For example, if the temperature is 35° F and wind speed 15 mph do the following: 1) find 35° F on the top row, 2) read down to the row with 15 mph, and 3) read the number in the intersection. In this example, the figure is 25° F.

The importance of the wind chill index is as an indicator of how to dress properly for winter weather. Wind chill does not affect your car's antifreeze protection, freezing of water pipes, etc. In dressing for cold weather an important factor to remember is that entrapped insulating air warmed by body heat is the best protection against the cold. Consequently, wear loose-fitting, lightweight, warm clothing in several layers. Outer garments should be tightly-woven, water-repellant and hooded. Mittens snug at the wrist are better protection than fingered gloves.

Wind speeds greater than 40 mph have little additional effect on chilling. In using the table below, values of wind chill below -10° F are considered bitterly cold. Values of wind chill below -20° F are extremely cold -- human flesh will begin to freeze within one minute!

[Seldona]

84. Great chart.

I am surprised at the number of people even here in Wisconsin that don't get windchill.

One more thing, I had a winter safety kit in the car as well. We had blankets, flares, chemical hand-warmers, etc. It can mean the difference between a harrowing experience and disaster.

[uppityperson]

88. Even here in Pacific NW I have an emergency car kit.

It can mean a difference. In midwest we had sleeping bags, hand warmers, snacks, flares, cat little, shovel, etc. It can mean a difference.

[Fumesucker]

96. As a matter of fact I have spent the night in a car stuck in a snowrdrift in a blizzard..

I was about 13 at the time and was with my dad and younger brother. We would have possibly frozen to death if we had run out of gas.

Just because I live in Georgia doesn't mean a)I've lived here all my life or b) Have never been anywhere else.

[uppityperson]

115. I am glad you survived.

[semillama]

155. Google map of West Magic Road

http://tinyurl.com/97ve3x

(The marker is the West Magic Resort, not where the kids were found)

Doesn't look like a road that gets that much traffic even in good weather.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

191. If you're saying that, you have most likely never experienced a real blizzard

Given blizzard conditions, anyone with any brains will stay home. I've driven in white-out conditions, and it is NOT something I ever want to do again.

[liberalhistorian]

192. You obviously don't live in a rural western area like that.

I do, and I can tell you that it's not unusual at all for HOURS to go by before even one car will come along, especially in blizzards. And anyone who spends three minutes in an area like that knows that you do NOT ever leave your car in weather like that, and you don't ever send kids off on their own in that kind of weather. EVER. And you sure as hell don't drive back to your town after freeing your car without ever checking on your kids out walking in a fucking blizzard for miles. The murder charges are more than warranted.

[GreenPartyVoter]

56. a) He should never have sent them off to walk the ten miles in the first place, so yeah

I'm "hating" on the dad. It is so easy to get lost in a blizzard.

And b) he freed his car, so why didn't he chase the kids down?

[DeschutesRiver]

42. Absolutely believable

I live in a remote area, takes 6 miles of bad road to get to the nearest "highway" - which might have zero traffic on it for hours and hours during a bad snowstorm. Sometimes I drive it 20 miles to the nearest town during good weather and don't pass one single other vehicle.

And by the same token, if someone did happen to be on the road at the same time my truck was disabled, they stop and ask if I need help (has happened to me a couple of times). Out here we all stop and check on the welfare of anyone we see that looks stranded or in trouble. Something that never happened as frequently when I lived in a much larger city environment. But you do take your chances if no one happens to be using the highway, or like friends of mine, whose car went off the road into a deep gully and no one that did pass by could see them (if they hadn't had Onstar, they would have died there - that has happened out here also).

This guy probably didn't parent them much better in the good times than he did during this emergency. Nobody reasonable sends their young kids out in a storm to walk 10 miles while they and another adult fiddle with fixing the car; and worse, don't even follow up on whether the poor kids made it or now.

He likely did what he usually did when parenting - rolled the dice, took his chances. These dice didn't roll the right way, and now someone needs to take away his freedom for a damned long time. He wasn't a dad or a parent - he was just a sperm donor.

[GreenPartyVoter]

57. And even if someone did stop, kids have a lot of Stranger Danger drilled into them. They may

have opted not to take the ride figuring they were safer out in the storm. (Although if it had been me, I would have called the cops to come and pick them up.)

[wolfgangmo]

175. But in a rural area they likely knew anyone who might have stopped.

It is very unlikely that any stopped because they would have known the kids and visa versa. The kids would have taken the ride or the adults would have insisted or called the mother who likely was on speed dial.

[Fireweed247]

51. This story is horrible and the father is obviously brain damaged

but I agree with you, it is difficult to believe that no one passed on that road. I live on a very rural road but cars go by all the time. It is a general understanding here(in Alaska) that when someone needs help the next person that comes along helps no matter what. This was Christmas though so perhaps everyone was home with their families.

[Fumesucker]

101. Thanks for your support..

I was starting to think that I was the only one who looked askance at this aspect of the story.

And if I were to see a child walking on a road in a blizzard there is no way I would leave them even if they wouldn't get in the car I would stay there until they either collapsed and I could drag them into the car or they got somewhere safe.

[uppityperson]

105. There is something wrong with the Dad, indeed.

I would not SEND any child with me off to walk 9-10 miles, unsupervised, in a blizzard. Even if they had snowpants.

Of course we are looking askance at the father, there is something wrong with him indeed. Aside from the dead and hurt children aspect, of course we are looking at him and wondering wtf he did this for, what his problem is as he was dead wrong to do this.

[LisaL]

118. Looking at what aspect of the story?

Is there any information out there that anyone was driving by, saw the kids and didn't stop?
Not as far as I can tell. If anybody had reported that people drove by those kids but didn't help that would be one thing. But there is no information about it that I could find anywhere. This looks like a rural area. Frankly I doubt anyone would drive by kids walking in these conditions and just keep on driving. People might be afraid to stop to pick up a grown man, but not to help kids?

[uppityperson]

122. Oh. My. Goodness.

I am arguing the same side as lizzy and cali here. Huh, sometimes it happens. Hi guys.

[LanternWaste]

131. I imagine that even if there were passers-by...

I imagine that even if there were passers-by on a lonely stretch of road, blizzard conditions could quite easily cause a local white-out preventing our hypothetical passers-by from seeing anything beyond the hood of their car...

However, I simply do not think it's out of the ordinary at all to imagine that no one had driven that road other than the players in the OP due to the weather, the holiday, and the realtively low population density.

Edit: typo

[unapatriciated]

178. I have to agree with you...

I used to live in Mammoth Lakes, CA. One winter we had a very bad blizzard and white out. I had to walk just a short mile home from work. You could not see more than a few feet, it took me over an hour to get home.
I was dressed in thermos, ski pants, jacket, hat and gloves, it was the coldest longest walk of my life. The roads were closed so no traffic.

[Gwendolyn]

136. The kids weren't on the road.

It took hours to find them, with search and rescue teams from all over. Included a snow plow, snow mobiles, deputies, a vet and a dog. Had they been walking along the road, there wouldn't have been such an effort required.

They obviously took the short cut across farm land or field.

[uppityperson]

137. Or they lost the road, as can happen in a blizzard.

blowing snow, low visibility, can wipe out tracks and you can easily lose a road. Even as an adult. Those poor kids.

[Gwendolyn]

143. You're right. It's been awhile since I've been stuck in one.

Don't know why I'm answering so much on this thread. Guess I just feel so terrible for those kids, and the fear they must have felt on top of the cold.

[Blue_Tires]

199. population density?

fwiw my car broke down one night in Kansas, and as I walked about 6 miles to the nearest 'main road' I didn't see a car....and this was in the middle of summer....

[Cleita]

59. There isn't that much traffic on those roads in the summer. I can imagine

that there was no traffic on Christmas day in a blizzard.

[gollygee]

130. Have you ever lived anywhere that had blizzards?

1. Not many people drive during them.

2. There is almost no visibility. You can't always see a few feet in front of you. It makes lots of sense that they wouldn't have been seen.

[Marr]

151. You ever been to Idaho?

It's not exactly a bustling megalopolis. And during a blizzard? Nobody's going to be out there.

[wolfgangmo]

174. If there was a blizzard they may not have seen them.

Northern prairie blizzards are pretty severe.

Notice that the kids froze to death.

[marshall]

25. I would guess the man had problems with his ex-wife

Probably resented having to drive his children to her house. They probably had had numerous fights about issues with the kids, and he took it out on them.

[K Gardner]

26. Murder? No. Involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide, yes.

[LisaL]

29. You don't know all the details of the case to know what

charges are warranted.

[K Gardner]

119. For god's sakes, I responded to a post that asked for a fucking opinion. Get a life.

[LisaL]

159. Do you have a clue as to what discussion is?

[cali]

34. I suggest you

do more reading. Read about the Idaho criminal code and more details of what happened.

[K Gardner]

117. Good lord, no sense getting snippy. The post asked for a comment.. I made one, now I'm told

to read the Idaho Criminal Code? WTF??

LOL. DU has gone over the edge these days. From now on, perhaps people who don't want an opinion shouldn't ask for one, or ask people only who give the CORRECT opinion to answer.

[Marr]

153. Well yes, of course.

I mean- you disagreed, so obviously you're ignorant. ;-)

"So what's your opinion?"

"I think X."

"WRONG!"

[LanternWaste]

156. Or possibly just a valid...

"or ask people only who give the CORRECT opinion to answer..."

Or possibly just a valid, well-reasoned, possibly even lightly-researched opinion.

[varkam]

173. Some states don't have manslaughter - they use degrees, like this one.

It's 2nd degree murder, which is probably akin to voluntary manslaughter.

FWIW, I agree that a 1st degree murder (which is what I assume you're referring to) charge is not warranted

[Kansas Wyatt]

32. YES, he knew that was too cold.

[unapatriciated]

33. Even on a nice day...

A 10 mile walk is brutal
at 2-3 mph it would take them from 3-5 hours to get there - on a nice day

[DevonRex]

38. And the brother had part of his leg amputated because of frostbite.

This is more horrific than words can describe.

I also want to know why it was 7:00 p.m. before anybody notified authorities. And why was it "friends of the mother" who did it and not either of the parents. Blame surely rests MUCH more squarely on the father's shoulders. But I can tell you it sure as hell wouldn't take ME hours to report that my kids were walking alone in a blizzard.

[NorthernSpy]

169. The delirium of hypothermia makes its victims think they're burning up...

So they strip off their clothes and start losing their extremities to frostbite.


It's horrible.


:cry:

[kiva]

40. Yes to charging the father.

Poor kids! Reading the part where the little girl couldn't go any further and was going to return to her dad's car was heartbreaking--dad's car wasn't there because dad got it started and was nice and warm at home!!!

[firedupdem]

41. What a dumb man...

Those poor children. My dog doesn't even like to go out to do his business when it's that cold and he allowed two children to walk in that kind of weather. Horrible Story.

[Eric Cartman]

43. I think the charges are a little high...

he'll probably end up with unintentional manslaughter... unless he was drunk.

My question, whey the fuck didn't he drive to pick them up after he got unstuck? That makes no sense.

[GreenPartyVoter]

58. The fact that he didn't follow up or look for them may be what bumped the charge upward

[Eric Cartman]

74. That's what I was thinking too.

[LisaL]

125. I imagine so. What is reported that he drove back after he got

his car out. If he didn't drive toward the mother's location to make sure the children arrived, or pick them up along the way, that ought to bump the charges upward.

[JuniperLea]

44. Oh, hell yes!

Ten miles in the snow? What an idiot. Unfortunately, he deserves all the pain he is feeling right now. I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone, but you know how it goes... Karma.

[fed_up_mother]

45. YES the charges are warranted!

[Mad_Dem_X]

46. He didn't check to make sure they'd made it?

First of all, you don't make your kids walk ten goddamned miles in the snow and freezing weather. Secondly, after freeing his car, he didn't go on to check to see if they had made it to their destination safely? WTF?

My answer is yes, the charges are warranted. At least the little boy is still alive.

[Withywindle]

52. Absolutely warranted.

WTF? Not many adults could survive a 10-mile walk in that weather, much less children.

And he didn't go looking for them after he got the car moving? Didn't call the mother? Didn't call police?


These are NOT the actions of someone who gives a shit about the children.

[Cleita]

54. Having traveled and spent a lot of time in that part of Idaho, there are huge

stretches of lonely highway through wilderness and agri lands between the few and far between cities and towns. I know. DH and I were stuck for eight hours once on the same road from Jerome before we could flag down a farmer to call us a tow truck when he got some place where there was a telephone. The father probably had a choice of letting them freeze there while waiting for help or walking to their mother's hoping the exercise would keep them warm. Apparently, he was able to free the vehicle afterwards.

My only questions are why he didn't go down the same road looking for his children or why didn't he telephone the mother after he got back to Jerome? In this day of cell phones was there no service in that area (very possible)? Or maybe he didn't even have a cell phone. I think I need to know more about the circumstances and more about the father before I pass judgement.

As far as walking the ten miles, these locals are very tough people and walking ten miles is not a big deal for them even in winter. The low temperatures could be a key. For anyone who as endured below zero temperatures, you know that you don't feel colder past 5 degrees above or at least I never did even though it would go way below zero, I didn't feel any colder beyond a certain point. The problem is that you will freeze faster and sometimes not even know it other than the frozen moisture around your face. If the children paused to rest, they would have frozen very quickly in those temperatures and not even known what was happening.

[cali]

60. baloney. to put it kindly.

the father faced no such choice at all. First of all there were two adults. Secondly, the kids were wearing pajama bottoms with nothing under them. Your post is utterly ignorant, ridiculous and irresponsible. I sure hope you don't have kids.

The father should NEVER EVER have let two young children go off in freezing blizzard conditions on remote roads with a 10 fucking mile walk in front of them. They could have stayed in the car, huddled together with the window cracked and the heat running intermittently while dad and his friend dug the car out.

And don't even begin with that moronic shit about how "the locals are tough and a ten mile walk even in blizzard conditions is just peachy. That's just sooo fucking stupid.

I live and have lived for nearly three decades in a place where winters are hard as hell. I wouldn't even have dreamt of letting my kid walk alone for 10 miles in any season let alone winter.

Your post is beyond the pale.

[Cleita]

66. Bull shit from a know it all.

You run around this message board like you are some kind of goddess with all the answers. All I'm saying is to ask more questions which you apparently can't. I'll bet when this story plays out that there are many factors that played into it that makes it make more sense and probably more tragic than you can imagine when all the facts are known.

[cali]

68. Look, I'm sorry I lost my temper over your post

but no, there is no possible excuse for dad. you simply don't ever, ever let a kid go off in those conditions. And yeah, it won't surprise me if Dad and his friend were drunk, but that doesn't make it any more excusable.

and yeah, of course. I think I'm some sort of a goddess. :eyes: sheesh, do you realize how silly you sound?

[Cleita]

76. You just can't help insulting people can you?

I think a little humility on your part would be in order so that you think before you post.

[cali]

79. lol. it's hopeless to try and be civil to you.

and you are so wrong about this situation. you don't let your children wander off in an isolated area in blizzard conditions, no matter what. Period. And yeah, living in a harsh winter climate in a rural area, I do know a little bit about it- though really all it takes is common sense.

I pity people who have trouble grasping something that basic.

[Cleita]

93. I hope you never have to sit on a jury where you have to really delve into

these situations before you pass judgement and another insult in your post and you call that being civil.

[cali]

100. I've sat on a jury

and I apologized to you and got rude and nasty back. You really shouldn't be preaching.

[Cleita]

103. Maybe you don't know when you are being insulting and your apology

complete with insult was no apology but you being condescending and snooting down your nose at me, which you do regularly. Excuse me if I'm not turning the other cheek.

[Stephanie]

185. you're absolutely right

there is NO excuse for sending kids on that hike in a blizzard in pajamas. i grew up in MT and I can imagine those conditions. it's not even fathomable to send kids off alone in that weather.

[uppityperson]

86. bwahahahahaha

" Bull shit from a know it all."
"You run around this message board like you are some kind of goddess with all the answers."

[pnwmom]

87. Pajamas bottoms? This father couldn't have been sober.

I hadn't read that detail. This was despicable.

[hfojvt]

109. I used to walk over five miles a day as a 12, 13, 14 year old

carrying a bag of papers, sometimes having to wait half an hour for the papers to be dropped off. Thinking about it now, I am sure that I never wore longjohns either, so I wonder how my legs did not freeze. Some days I would wear a snowmobile suit and then a parka on top of that (and I remember getting too hot sometimes in that get-up), and sometimes mom or dad would show up with the car on a Sunday morning, which was the only day it wasn't an afternoon paper.

Of course that's a five mile walk when you are never more than 200 feet from a house.

I find it kinda Darwinistic that people would travel in that kind of country without preparing for the weather or trouble, and carrying many more layers of warm clothing and blankets and candles, etc.

[gollygee]

139. I agree

It's ridiculous to think that a well meaning dad would send kids who aren't properly dressed for the winter to wander 10 miles in a blizzard. The chances of them making it there alive were really really slim. It was beyond stupid IMO. He either wasn't sober or something, or it was on purpose, IMO.

[uppityperson]

61. 10 miles in a blizzard is the key here. And no, they could have "exercised" to keep warm @ car

IF there wasn't a blizzard, perhaps they should have walked, all together. But there was a blizzard. And I don't care how "tough" you are, sending them out in a blizzard without adequate coverage was wrong.

Obviously this was a big deal.

Blizzard=winds=windchill.

Staying with the car, moving around in or next to the car, cuddling up together in the car, wrapping in whatever was in the car, even helping dig the car out all are better ways to get warm than walking in winds without adequate clothing.

[Cleita]

63. You are asking children to think of those things when their father apparently

was out to lunch. Maybe he was drunk and I never said he was smart, only tough, like the potato farmers are in that area. I'm not defending him. It's just that these stories out of Idaho like the Joanne McGuckin story of parental neglect turn out to be far more tragic than the news paints them, especially from outsider city people. I need more information before I pass judgement.

[uppityperson]

65. No, I am challenging your statement on "very tough people" and "exercising"

also trying to pass on information that perhaps someone may think of if they find themselves in this situation.

Edited to add that if he was drunk, that still is no excuse to do what he did.

[Cleita]

73. Did I miss something? Was there a gym around?

Exercising?

Yeesch! Everyone who has had to brave snow and walk from a broken down car knows that keeping the blood moving with walking and running keeps you warmer. If you don't know that then I don't know how to explain the sweat on athletes to you. Idaho people who for the most part a rural people who are farmers or woods people are very tough and have learned some very unique survival skills. You would know that if you ever lived there. They are also some of the poorest white people outside of Appalachia living in a more unforgiving northern climate and many are inadequately educated due to having to quit school to go to work at an early age.

Now will you please get over arguing with me over semantics and get to the real point. What were the circumstances that led to this tragedy? We don't know yet. I'm trying to put a human face on this because the same immediate smear job was done to a woman from Idaho named Joanne McGuckin, who was accused of being a bad mother and put in jail on felony charges when it turns out that her biggest problem was being dirt poor and unable to cope with her circumstances and take care of six children when she was widowed after her husband died from MS without any health care because they couldn't afford it after he couldn't work anymore and was cut off his health insurance. The Republican local government really botched helping this family too preferring to beat them while they were down instead of giving them the assistance they needed.

LOOK FOR MORE INFORMATION AND FACTS BEFORE YOU PASS JUDGEMENT! I Believe if you do, you will find a bigger tragedy is underneath this one.

[uppityperson]

83. Here is your quote " hoping the exercise would keep them warm"

"The father probably had a choice of letting them freeze there while waiting for help or walking to their mother's hoping the exercise would keep them warm".

No, walking in a blizzard won't keep you warmer than jumping up and down by the car, or helping dig it out. And no, rural Idaho people don't have special "toughness" that allows them to survive windchill freezing in blizzards. If you really fell they did have some special toughness and survival skills, explain why the one died and the other barely survived.

Here is my post on windchill: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4736055&mesg_id=4738254

If you cannot see the difference between an athlete and kids walking, underclothed, in a blizzard, rather than keeping warm by the shelter they had, I pity you.

You don't leave shelter in a blizzard, if you are under dressed and are not near enough another shelter to get there safely.

[Cleita]

89. I was trying to think like the father might have.

Quoting me doesn't tell us what was going through his mind, but I present a possibility. But I see what is going on here. Everyone has jumped in to be Judge and jury and anyone who tries to bring another reason that he acted as he did will be crucified alongside the father. Until we know what kind of father he was, there are no answers yet. But go ahead and nail away.

[uppityperson]

90. I was replying to what you wrote. I am sure there are reasons he acted as he did.

In this situation, though, he was wrong.

[Cleita]

91. Of course what he did was wrong because there was a tragic outcome.

However, are we condemning him for lacking judgement for whatever reason, drunkeness or stupidity? Or are we accusing him of being mean and uncaring? We don't know do we?

[uppityperson]

102. I am condemning him for what he did.I do not know the reason, and may condemn him more or less

when the reason comes out, if it does. I am saying he was WRONG to do this.

AND I am saying that, for future reference, people should learn to NOT do this in the future. STAY by the car, STAY with the shelter UNLESS you are adequately clothed and MATURE enough to not do so. 1 adult can work on digging out the car, the other can work on helping the kids survive. Keep warm BY the shelter.

THAT is what I am saying. Now, go fight with someone else since what you are saying is not my issue here.

[Maru Kitteh]

128. I don't give a rat's ass why he did it. His daughter is just as dead.

How stupid - to wring our hands and cry that her killer is getting picked on on an internet message board.

[Stephanie]

186. ridiculous

I'm from that part of the country and you are taught wilderness SURVIVAL skills from a young age and that does NOT mean hiking ten miles in a blizzard in pajamas. you don't leave the car, and you don't leave KIDS alone in a blizzard.

[uppityperson]

187. Even if it were a summer day, would you send an 11 and 12 yr old off alone, down a road

for a 10 mile walk to their mom's house, and then not check to make sure they got there?

Blizzard survival involves staying with the shelter and the 2 adults.

[Stephanie]

188. honestly? maybe

we were sent off to ski all day with no supervision whatsoever. hiking in the woods, biking down the highway, nobody kept track of us. nowadays of course you wouldn't expect that to happen, but in MT in the 70s it was the norm. but in a blizzard? never in a million years would our parents send us off like that. in PAJAMAS, no less.

[uppityperson]

189. I went off also, but not on 10 mile hikes. A couple miles, but not 10.

And if I got sent to someone's house, my folks would call to make sure I got there.

But never in a blizzard in pjs. First lesson is you stay with the shelter because it is really easy to get disoriented and lost. Pre-first lesson was you make sure you have enough clothing on, and emergency gear before even driving to the store since things happen.

[Stephanie]

190. We def learned wilderness survival

Dad was an Eagle Scout. It was a way of life. You learned carving, ropes, camping, fires, shelter, first aid. And it wasn't for yuks, it was a practical education for that environment. You stay with the car. You build a shelter of pine boughs. You build a snow hut. You stay together.

[Cleita]

195. I'm not saying the father did the right thing.

It's the lynch mob mentality of this post that pissed me off. If you really are from that part of the country you should be worried.

[Stephanie]

196. Worried about what?

Worried that if I send my child off to hike ten miles in pajamas in a blizzard on Christmas, that folks might call me names? Not too worried about that, actually.

[Maru Kitteh]

197. This must be how asshole murderers on death row find new brides

some dimwit starts wringing her hands and crying that he's been "lynch mobbed."

[pnwmom]

70. But your questions are the key to the question of his guilt.

He didn't go look for them, when his car was working again, but left them to continue the ten mile walk alone in the freezing cold. And he didn't bother to telephone the mother when he got back to Jerome.

I grew up in an area just as cold as this, and the responsible parents I knew would never have sent children out to walk by themselves in that weather. As you said: "If the children paused to rest, they would have frozen very quickly in those temperatures and not even known what was happening." If this walk was reasonable, the father should have gone with them -- but the safer course is always to stay in the car.

I bet the father was drunk.

[Cleita]

82. Of course my questions are just that, but no one but you bothered to

put them in context. I tried to frame my post by bringing people into the situation and eliminating possibilities like cars passing on the road. The circumstances are quite different there than say the Donner Pass in California, which weather wise is just as unforgiving, but which is such a busily traveled highway, that when cars and trucks are frozen in, people are able to help the guy in front of them and behind them. There is a large police presence there helping stranded motorists. The father no doubt was very stupid and maybe drunk. However, I really want more information before I condemn him to the gallows. No doubt this tragedy will haunt him the rest of his life when he sobers up if that was the problem. Unfortunately drinking is a big problem with these very poor people. Thank our system for that especially in Idaho where the ruling Republican class doesn't give a shit about them.

[dems_rightnow]

98. We used to walk 30 miles to school in a blizzard. Uphill. No shoes.

And we laughed about it. We were some tough people. Unlike those pansies who freeze when it's really cold.

[uppityperson]

104. Uphill BOTH ways.

Can I swoon over you?

[dems_rightnow]

116. Not right now.

I'm busy doing surgery on myself with a rusty pocketknife.

Honestly, you cityfolk are just wimps.

[uppityperson]

120. Naw, I'm one of those super tough rural gals.

Just back in from beating off a bear.










don't. just, don't.

[dems_rightnow]

123. Dear Lord girl!

When food attacks don't chase it away!

[uppityperson]

124. Who said I chased it away?

[Regret My New Name]

142. hahahah lol.

[Regret My New Name]

144. hhaha, I'm easily amused today... I'm still laughing at that.

[uppityperson]

148. Sorry, it just came out that way.

dang, don't want to get this locked.

[gollygee]

132. It isn't safe anywhere for anyone to walk 10 miles in a blizzard

Particularly underdressed children. That's just crazy.

[Regret My New Name]

140. The fact that he didn't go and try to get them is what damns him the most...

If he freed the car and then attempted to make sure they made it, then I would say that *may* be more to the story, and perhaps he was doing what he thought was right. However, he did not even bother to make sure they were ok, which is what makes me think he was not looking out of their own good when he made such a stupid decision.

[JerseygirlCT]

180. If walking was what was needed, then he should have left his

car and walked with the children.

[liberalhistorian]

193. I'm sorry, but your post is full of nothing but shit.

I live in South Dakota, and no one I know, no matter how "tough" would ever be able to walk ten miles in a freezing blizzard with no problem, much less would they consider it "no big deal." That is BULLSHIT of the highest degree. They wouldn't even consider doing such a thing. Anyone who lives here, and in ID and other similar states, knows that you just don't leave your vehicle in those conditions, let alone make your young kids leave the car. Period. And you never, ever expect your young children to walk ten fucking miles in a blizzard no matter what they're wearing. And in this case, these poor children were not even sufficiently dressed for the weather.

And WTF was up with him not even going to check on them after freeing his car, instead driving back to his town? That alone warrants the severity of the charges.

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. 10 MILES?! That is insane!!! I can't believe a parent would do that even in good weather but

a blizzard? What was that man thinking? Heck, he got his car free, why did he not try to catch up with the kids? (Who should never have been out there in the first place.)

[autorank]

62. Well, it was a premeditated act. He's expected to know the lethality of the conditions.

So it's murder one. A capital crime!

Simply unbelievable, truly. I'll bet you a Franklin that this story goes no where near the
publicity for the Santa slayer.

[Gwendolyn]

64. Ingredients for tragedy...

- 1988 Buick Sedan + blizzard
- Christmas + early alcohol imbibing (guess)
- bad parenting skills in general
- acrimonious relations between parents + use of children to punish ex-partner + alcohol (guess)
- bad judgement + frustration at 1988 Buick stuck in snow + alcohol fuzziness (guess)

= 1 dead child + 1 handicapped child + dad in prison

[Ichingcarpenter]

69. I got frostbite on my toes in Colorado helping my brother start his car

He forgot to put the heater on his oil pan that night it was -13 degrees and had good socks, boots and clothing on.


I was only out for a half hour or so but sweated in my boots. The frostbite came back last year after
40 years and took the nails off of my toes again. Frostbite never goes away.

Was this 2nd degree murder? I think it was criminal negligent homicide, it will depend on the state's
laws. In some states it would be 1st degree manslaughter and in others 2nd degree murder.

[gravity]

71. Something doesn't smell right

10 miles miles is a real long distance especially in fucking a blizzard. If you are walking 20 minute miles, which is fast given the conditions, that is over 3 hours. If it was one mile, it should be involuntary manslaughter, but 10 miles is absurd.

The fact that the father was able to get the car running eventually to drive home also doesn't smell right either.

[GreenPartyVoter]

77. This is a real leap, but what if this was some sort of modern day "Hansel and Gretel" instead

of just an accident?? (Crazy talk, I know, but still...)

[supernova]

80. Interesting notion

If you were a parent overwhelmed with the responsibility and wanting to relieve your self of it, but actively not commit murder....

Hmmmm.... :think:

[GreenPartyVoter]

85. Or child support.....

[Gwendolyn]

94. He was the primary caregiver. The visit to the mother was a Xmas treat it seems.

[GreenPartyVoter]

95. True, so that scratches that motive.

[Gwendolyn]

81. The "car" was stuck in a snowbank. It's conceivable they managed to get it out.

My armchair detective instincts tell me alcohol was probably involved, plus general stupidity, and maybe some anger at having to go out in that weather to deliver the kids in the first place.

I've grown up where blizzards and lonely stretches of the road were the norm. Most normal people would've sent one of the adults to get help while the other did jumping jacks with the kids, and tried their best otherwise to keep them warm.

[gravity]

92. That by itself is conceivable

But not picking your kids up after sending them on a 3+ hour trek in a blizzard isn't.

It could be a real dumb part on the parents, but it is conceivable that it is more than that given the extreme circumstances. The murder charges are appropriate and it is up to the courts to figure out what really happened.

[Gwendolyn]

97. I agree with you. Maybe he was sick of caring for the kids.

It looks like he had full responsibility for them. Maybe it was a mix of alcohol and a subconscious desire, who really knows. But yes, the charges are appropriate. Even if as some people say, "country people are tough," country people would also know better.

[DS1]

99. He needs his head banging on that table a few more times

How about once for each 1/4 mile

What an ass

[cali]

110. tut tut tut

according to some, you're being too judgmental.

[uppityperson]

112. Until we find out why he sent his child to death, we should not say it was wrong.

I mean, really! He might have had a perfectly good reason. Like there was a hungry t-rex by the car so he sent the kids off. Or maybe he was drunk or maybe he had some other mental health issues.

I mean, really! How COULD any of us speak out against this until we know all the facts. 1 kid died and another lost part of his leg due to frostbite? Oh well. Let's wait for all the facts to come out before saying this was the wrong thing to do.


:sarcasm:

And how DARE anyone say "why" this was the wrong thing to do when, after all, the father might be mentally ill.

:sarcasm:

[DS1]

152. That's their problem.

I'm right.

[liberalhistorian]

194. No fucking kidding. And I gladly volunteer

to help him with that.

[Maru Kitteh]

106. Oh my God - what a beautiful name - Sage Aragon - poor thing

How terribly we fail our children.

Findlaw says this about second degree murder:

"Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter."

and this about involuntary manslaughter:

"nvoluntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as DUI). The usual distinction from voluntary manslaughter is that involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "criminally negligent homicide") is a crime in which the victim's death is unintended."


I think it would be easier to convict on involuntary manslaughter.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

107. This is

so fucking lame. Putting 2 kids out in that kind of weather.... The dad deserves to be stuck in a freezer, naked for a few hours and then popped into a prison cell.

[lonestarnot]

126. Yes warranted!

[Stinky The Clown]

127. Yes, the charges are warranted

[uppityperson]

135. I never answered the OP, just talked about the case and cold. So...

charges are warranted. I do not know if it would be murder 2 or manslaughter as I don't know enough about the father, but I think some sort of charges are warranted.

[Witchy_Dem]

138. Sage's Obit and Guestbook

Posted today

http://www.magicvalley.com/obituaries/?type=obit&id=76101

http://www.magicvalley.com/obituaries/?type=guestbook&id=76101

[uppityperson]

141. Thank you. These poor children. Bio on her...

"Sage was a sixth-grader at Summit Elementary School in Jerome. She was a happy girl who was always helpful, loved swimming, camping and being outdoors. She will be remembered as a "social butterfly" who loved her friends of all ages."

RIP Sage.

[uppityperson]

145. Another story with more...

http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/5/28099/child-dies-hypothermia-father-robert-aragon-charged.html

Sage Aragon was found dead in the snow, as the result of hypothermia. Bear Aragon was found alive, near a rest area 4.5 miles from Robert Aragon's truck, wearing only long underwear. Police suspect he discarded his clothing after becoming delusional from the effects of hypothermia. It appears that the two separated from each other at some point during the chilly walk. According to JoLeta Jenks, Sage told her brother, "I'm going back". She was pronounced dead at a Ketchum hospital.

JoLeta Jenks is not married to Robert Aragon. She does not understand what prompted Aragon's decision to allow the children to walk to her home in knee-deep snow, at temperatures recorded from 27 degrees above zero to minus five. She says she knows that Robert Aragon is …"going through hell right now." It was JoLeta Aragon who alerted authorities to begin searching when no one showed up at her home....

http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=1560917&nid=104

At some point the children separated and their mother said her son told her they disagreed about whether to keep going or turn back.

"(Bear) kept on telling her: 'Let's go, Sage, let's go, Sage,'" Jenks said, recalling what her son told her. "She said, 'No, I'm going back.'"

The little girl was found about 2.7 miles from where the two set out, barely visible under windblown, drifting snow when search dogs located her along a local road about 2 a.m. Friday. She was wearing a brown down coat, black shirt, pink pajama pants and tan snowboots, the sheriff's office statement said.
(clip)
Officials say temperatures in the area at the time the girl was missing ranged from 27 degrees above zero to minus 5.

[uppityperson]

146. And another story with pictures of the kids

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1103087/Girl-11-died-father-forced-walk-10-miles-snowstorm-Christmas-Day-HE-rescued.html

Officials say temperatures in the area at the time the girl was missing touched -20C.

Sage Aragon, 11, pictured with her brother Bear, died of hypothermia after she was left to walk 10 miles in sub-zero temperatures on Christmas day


Robert Aragon, in court above, has been charged with second-degree murder after daughter Sage died of hypothermia

[uppityperson]

147. PICTURES of Sage and Bear here...

Sage Aragon, 11, pictured with her brother Bear, died of hypothermia after she was left to walk 10 miles in sub-zero temperatures on Christmas day

[Maru Kitteh]

149. Poor bear is going to second guess himself for the rest of his life

It's not going to matter that he's just a kid and it wasn't his fault or his decision and most importantly, his JOB to care for his sister.

Just. Damn.

[IDemo]

157. Meanwhile, elsewhere in Idaho

Half-naked man and woman nearly die at remote hot springs

[uppityperson]

184. 400 yards. 2 got lost. Blizzards are easy to get lost in.(more from story...)

"Trooper David Anthony said the falling snow got their clothes wet while they were in the hot tub. They tried to make it back to their car about 400 yards away. Four of them were successful, but two got lost and were not found until the next day."

I had an uncle in Montana that went out to check his barn animals one day in a blizzard. It was a hundred feet or so and he got lost. He almost died because the wind and snow had blown away his tracks already, and visibility was only a foot or so. He kept his head and managed to make it back uphill to his house. Next time he prepared and had a rope strung between house and barn and all the buildings so he could follow them.

Blizzards can be really easy to get lost in.

[williesgirl]

158. I think some kind of manslaughter charge fits better. He didn't intend to kill his son.

[LisaL]

160. His son isn't dead.

[NorthernSpy]

161. Who can stand against the cold?

(I think that phrase might be in the Bible or from a poem -- I can't remember.)


In any case, it must be a terrible thing to freeze to death alone.


Rest in peace, Sage.

[pitohui]

162. is this just prosecuting someone for having bad luck?

if he'd stayed w. the car and the child had died of hypothermia, as seems likely based on her size and age, would he have been prosecuted for NOT trying to take the walk to get help

i would need to know more before i understand why the father is being charged here

i'm not from a northernly clime but we hear all the time, down here, about how people stay w. the car and die of carbon monoxide poisoning -- i mean everyone in the car dies!

if a man has no good choice, should we second guess?

now if the dude was drunk and wrecked the vehicle in the snow, all bets are off, but people do have accidents in bad weather w.out any crime being involved...so..if this is a prosecutor trying to make a name off a family's tragedy, well, i wish the same hard choices for him and his

(note--the thread is too long and i'm unable to read the many responses before replying so i don't know if there is more info)

[Solon]

163. He freed the car, and was able to go home, that was abandonment, at the very least...

so there goes your argument.

[pitohui]

166. thanks solon, i see that now, that's why it was a question, not an argument EOM

.

[NorthernSpy]

164. You just don't let anyone walk ten miles into a snowstorm...

I grew up in a cold place, and I can say that this is just not something you do.


IF the father had let the kids walk ahead (which he shouldn't have...), and if the snowplow had been by to make the road driveable, THEN when he got the car going again, he SHOULD have driven in the direction the kids had been walking, and picked them up.


But basically, he shouldn't have let his children out of his sight no matter what, considering the weather and the low temperature, and how they were not dressed for it.


You see, winter isn't just some random misfortune for those of us in the North: it's a big part of life. We plan for it. We alter our behavior for it. We check on each other when the power goes out. We certainly don't let others walk off unprepared into the cold, because we've all read the news stories about people who froze to death out in the woods before they were found. And we don't want anything like that on our conscience.

[LisaL]

165. Did you even read the article?

He freed the car and then gone back home. Police wasn't even called until hours after the kids went toward their mother's house.

[pitohui]

167. as i said, i was interrupted and didn't have time, i see the whole story now

considering the post i wrote that you replied to, was considerably shorter than the article, and you didn't read that, i'm sure you understand

i basically was jumping the thread so i could get a better look later and now i have and i'm satisfied

okay?

[LisaL]

168. This is another article.

It says the kids went toward their mother's house at around 9 am. The father got his car freed around 10:30-11 am and drove to Shoshone instead of making sure his kids made it. At around 1-2 pm the mother told him the kids weren't there so only then did he go to look for them. And police was called at 7 pm.
http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=6467

[yardwork]

172. The father stayed with his car. Did you read the article?

[JerseygirlCT]

181. Either

they all stay together with the car - and his first concern in that case should be for keeping his children warm - pile on everything he's got, use his body warmth, etc...

Or they all walk together if that's really the only option.

No way in the world you leave two children to walk 10 miles in that weather. None.

If the car was stuck in snow, he gets out - maybe with help from the kids if they're dressed properly - and digs.

Now, first, he shouldn't even be in a vehicle in that weather - not without at least basic equipment like a shovel and a cell phone. If the kids are with him, that's double. And should include blankets - preferably thermal ones. And warmly dressed kids.

It sounds like he's either unbelievably stupid or unbelievably uncaring or some combination of the two.

[LisaL]

170. Here is some info about the dad.

No surprise there, I guess.
"BOISE, Idaho (AP) - The father charged in the death of his 11-year-old daughter, who likely died of hypothermia after trudging through 10 miles of snow on Christmas Day, has a criminal past dating back to the early 1990s.

Court records show Robert Aragon, 55, of Jerome, was most recently convicted of drug possession in February, and previously for trafficking drugs in 1994."


http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/Global/story.asp?S=9596772&nav=menu227_8

[BuelahWitch]

177. And he had custody of the kids?

What the hell is wrong with the state of Idaho to allow him custody of his kids? Unless the mother is worse...

[JerseygirlCT]

179. How stupid could he possibly be?

I wouldn't leave kids that age to walk ten miles unaccompanied in the middle of a beautiful spring day, not to speak of in horrid cold and snow. And if walking was what was needed, where was he? Was his truck more important than his kids?

Throw the book at him.

[uppityperson]

198. UPDATE, MORE INFO....passenger/cousin talks to media...

I found another article, seems to have some odd bits still. Mom says she didn't know the kids were walking, cousin says she was supposed to met them halfway. I am sure there will be more bits coming out, more confusion, etc. Cousin says "he dropped the kids off at 9 am", father says they started walking at noon. This is a tragic story, and I am skeptical of the report, from the little bit I've read.

http://www.kidk.com/news/local/36911194.html

Aragon's cousin, Kenneth Quintana, who was with the family talked about what happened that day and requested not to show his face. According to Quintana, the car they were in got stuck on the road around 9am Christmas morning shortly after turning off Highway 75.

He says it was their understanding that the kid's mother would meet them halfway on Magic Road. Quintana says Robert Aragon originally didn't let the kids leave when the car got stuck.

According to Quintana the two kids started walking around noon toward their mother's home. Quintana says that's when he started walking back to Highway 75 to get the car unstuck while Aragon stayed with the car.

Court documents show Aragon told police he dropped the kids off at 9am. Around 4pm, Quintana says he and Aragon went looking for the kids by following their footprints. Quintana says they had to turn back toward the car when the weather got bad. The criminal complaint filed in court shows the boy was found at around 11pm Christmas night and the girl a few hours later around 2am....(little bit more)

[JI7]

200. he was intentionally trying to hurt (kill) them from what i read so far

and when he started banging his head it was because they told him he could get life in prison, not over the death of his child.

the cousin staying behind and other things just point to it being intentional.

the car probably was never even stuck.

[uppityperson]

203. UPDATE, uncle arrested and faces drug charges (pot, tweaker)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hb-VFoUeYKIJdSPEqW5Jrm5Jc0owD95EOUKO0

A man who allegedly allowed his 11-year-old niece and 12-year-old nephew to attempt a 10-mile walk to their mother's house on a frigid Christmas Day was arrested on a murder warrant Thursday in connection with the hypothermia death of the little girl.

The warrant accuses Kenneth Quintana, 29, of second-degree murder and felony injury to a child, said Jerome County sheriff's Deputy David Ursino.
(clip)
Quintana also faces drug charges. He was found with marijuana, methamphetamine and drug paraphernalia when he was arrested, officers said....(bit more)

[meow2u3]

201. Murder is a bit too harsh a charge

He should have been charged with manslaughter because murder implies malicious intent to kill someone. He shouldn't have let the kids out to walk 10 miles in -5 degree frigid temps, but his behavior was reckless. If he had intentionally forced the kids to take that walk just because he didn't want to drive to their mom's house, then it would be murder.

I think he'll end up being convicted on a lesser charge of manslaughter, most likely first degree.

[cali]

202. no second degree murder under the Idaho criminal code does

not have to include intent. Sorry, you are wrong.