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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:40 AM
Original message
When Russia was in Afghanistan they had 150,000 troops and an
Afghanistan Army of 250,000 men and still they were defeated. They do not call Afghanistan "The graveyard of empires" for nothing.We are doubling down on our Afghanistan excursion to about 60,000 Americans and 15,000 NATO forces. There are about forty million people that live in the region of Afghanistan and Pakistan that basically are a nation of and by themselves and these are the ones we will be fighting. They are called the Punjab and they will defend their honor. They take great offense with foreigners killing their kin folk for no explainable reason that they can understand. We really need to think long and hard about what our goals are and exactly how we will obtain them. We are heading into very deep quicksand here. Obama needs a lot more civilian advice and a lot less military advice for the USA to understand exactly what we have gotten into.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did you mean Pashtun? Educate me. As far as Afghanistan - Obama's biggest mistake
so far is to escalate Afghanistan in hopes of "finishing the job." WTH is the mission there anymore? Just get OBL's head on dry ice and get the hell out of there.
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Punjab
The Punjab (Shahmukhi: FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=Punjab.ogg" پنجاب (help·info), (Gurmukhi: ਪੰਜਾਬ) province of Pakistan is by far the country's most populous and prosperous region and is home to the Punjabis and various other groups. Neighbouring areas are Sindh to the south, Balochistan and the North West Frontier Province to the west, Pakistani-administered Azad Kashmir, Jammu and Kashmir and Islamabad to the north, and India to the east. The main languages are the Punjabi, Urdu, Saraiki, Potowari and Pashto. The provincial capital is Lahore. The name Punjab literally translates from the Persian words Pañj (پنج) , meaning Five, and Āb (آب) meaning Water. Thus Punjab can be translated as (the) Five Waters - and hence the Land of the Five Rivers, referring to the Jhelum, Chenab, Ravi, Beas and Sutlej these five rivers are all the tributaries of the Indus River. The province was founded in its current form in May 1972.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_(Pakistan)
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. The Mega-Pentagon...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Military_Budget/Mega_Pentagon.html
The Mega-Pentagon: A Bush-Enabled Monster We Can't Stop
The Pentagon has developed a taste for unrivaled power and unequaled access to the treasury that won't be easily undone by future administrations.
by Frida Berrigan, Tomdispatch.com
www.alternet.org/, May 28, 2008

A full-fledged cottage industry is already focused on those who eagerly await the end of the Bush administration, offering calendars, magnets, and t-shirts for sale as well as counters and graphics to download onto blogs and websites. But when the countdown ends and George W. Bush vacates the Oval Office, he will leave a legacy to contend with. Certainly, he wills to his successor a world marred by war and battered by deprivation, but perhaps his most enduring legacy is now deeply embedded in Washington-area politics -- a Pentagon metastasized almost beyond recognition.
The Pentagon's massive bulk-up these last seven years will not be easily unbuilt, no matter who dons the presidential mantle on January 19, 2009. "The Pentagon" is now so much more than a five-sided building across the Potomac from Washington or even the seat of the Department of Defense. In many ways, it defies description or labeling.
Who, today, even remembers the debate at the end of the Cold War aboutå what role U.S. military power should play in a "unipolar" world? Was U.S. supremacy so well established, pundits were then asking, that Washington could rely on softer economic and cultural power, with military power no more than a backup (and a domestic "peace dividend" thrown into the bargain)? Or was the U.S. to strap on the six-guns of a global sheriff and police the world as the fountainhead of "humanitarian interventions"? Or was it the moment to boldly declare ourselves the world's sole superpower and wield a high-tech military comparable to none, actively discouraging any other power or power bloc from even considering future rivalry?
The attacks of September 11, 2001 decisively ended that debate. The Bush administration promptly declared total war on every front -- against peoples, ideologies, and, above all, "terrorism" (a tactic of the weak). That very September, administration officials proudly leaked the information that they were ready to "target" up to 60 other nations and the terrorist movements within them.
The Pentagon's "footprint" was to be firmly planted, military base by military base, across the planet, with a special emphasis on its energy heartlands. Top administration officials began preparing the Pentagon to go anywhere and do anything, while rewriting, shredding, or ignoring whatever laws, national or international, stood in the way. In 2002, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld officially articulated a new U.S. military posture that, in conception, was little short of revolutionary. It was called -- in classic Pentagon shorthand -- the 1-4-2-1 Defense Strategy (replacing the Clinton administration's already none-too-modest plan to be prepared to fight two major wars -- in the Middle East and Northeast Asia -- simultaneously).
Theoretically, this strategy meant that the Pentagon was to prepare to defend the United States, while building forces capable of deterring aggression and coercion in four "critical regions" (Europe, Northeast Asia, East Asia, and the Middle East). It would be able to defeat aggression in two of these regions simultaneously and "win decisively" in one of those conflicts "at a time and place of our choosing." Hence 1-4-2-1.
And that was just going to be the beginning. We had, by then, already entered the new age of the Mega-Pentagon. Almost six years later, the scale of that institution's expansion has yet to be fully grasped, so let's look at just seven of the major ways in which the Pentagon has experienced mission creep -- and leap -- dwarfing other institutions of government in the process.

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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think it depends on what the objective is. Russia wanted to take over the Country.
The US does NOT!

Let's make an assumption that IF we concentrate our efforts on getting Bin Laden and his close assistants, once that is accomplished, we can declare victory and leave. I think that's a doable scenario.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. The Soviet Union shared a border with Afghanistan. They marched in and marched out
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 12:00 PM by NNN0LHI
We have to fly or float everything to the other side of the world to keep this insanity going.

And the Soviets had control over every Afghan city while we can barley hold on to the capital.

Plus we are chasing ghosts. If a $25 million dollar bounty on bin Ladens head for the past 7 years didn't do it nothing will.

You can also bet US mercenaries have already tortured every Afghan they could get their hands on to get them to tell them where bin Laden is and that didn't do it either.

Don
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Can you recommend a good map of Afghanistan that simply shows the cities and provinces?
My godson is stationed in the Korengal valley in NE Afghanistan and I have a hard time finding a map that simply shows the locations. So often the maps do not have enough information and when something happens there it is difficult to find the exact location or the place simply does not appear on the map.
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SergeyDovlatov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. also, big superpower was funding the insurgents
What is different now is that Russia is not in conflict with US over Afganistan.
It is in Russia's interest to see stable not overly religious neighbour. It is true now as it was true in the 80s.



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