Some stats on who smokes

[The Straight Story]

While it was established long ago that smoking rates are higher among the poor, a Gallup survey released on Friday suggests there is a sliding scale: smoking decreases as income increases.

The poll, based on interviews with more than 75,000 Americans this year, also indicated that Americans are thoroughly worldly when it comes to lighting up — they smoke at almost the same rate as the worldwide median. A 2006 poll concluded that 22 percent of mankind smoked; 21 percent of Americans smoke, according to today’s count.

Among the huddled masses smoking outside the United Nations in Manhattan (smoking was banned indoors in 2003), Turks seem most likely to be in attendance. According to Gallup’s last estimate, 50 percent of Turkey’s citizens smoke, far more than any other.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/american-smokers-and-income-charted/

[Aaron1212]

1. does this poll factor in that there are many more poor then rich people?

.............

[The Straight Story]

3. Being that it is a percentage I would say yes (nt)

[Oregone]

4. So poor smokers, pay for your own damn poor kids!

[reggie the dog]

87. what the hell are you talking about????

do you seriously suggest cutting off aid to poor kids just because their parents smoke? Poor people get litte pleasure out of working 60 hours a week, a ciggie is just a little reward. Damn!

[sweetpotato]

96. I think they should smoke something else

Cigarettes have no health benefits. Something else has been proven to have health benefits.

They have made the wrong thing legal, in my opinion.

Smoking something else relieves stress, too.

[reggie the dog]

98. I know that,

but should we really punish people for FOLLOWING the law about which plant to smoke????

[sweetpotato]

99. never mind

[Oregone]

133. No no...

I think I misread the intention the poster I was responding to. I thought they were implying more people receiving the benefits are poor, so its OK that poor people (smokers) are paying for it. I think I just misread the response and was being bitterly sarcastic

[reggie the dog]

145. ah ok

we can all be in caustic moods from time to time.. i know i can....sometimes I even overlook sarcasim

[acmavm]

119. Comment deleted.

[BlooInBloo]

216. (facepalm)

Gawd we're a stupid, stupid country.

[tblue]

2. I never smoked but I guess it relieves stress.

[Bluebear]

22. It doesn't.

The relief of stress is due to the brain getting its fix of nicotine, but the stress is being caused by withdrawals to begin with. It's a vicious cycle.

Spoken as a former nicotine addict.

[RebelOne]

101. You are wrong.

At work, whenever I am stressed by a certain project I am working on, I go outside and have a cigarette. It relieves my anxiety and I am able to continue working.

[Daphne08]

121. It certainly helps me, too.

[LostinVA]

168. Bluebear is right -- read his entire post

I smoked 2+ packs a day, so I know how it used to be. It is a hit that temporarily relieves stress, until the high goes away, which then creates its OWN stress. It's selfdefeating.

[Bake]

126. Sorry, bb, but it sure does for me.

Relieve stress, that is.

Bake

[Codeine]

193. It relieves the stress

caused by the junkie-addiction in the first place. You'd be less stressed if you didn't have that chemical craving.

Most non-smokers aren't running around in a continual stress-state.

[martymar64]

68. For me, it relieves hunger pangs.

I can only afford to eat 1 to 2 small meals a day on my meager wages, so smoking makes it a little more tolerable. Of course the DU Taliban would like to outlaw one of the few things that makes my life just slightly less miserable.

[raccoon]

122. It gives you a bit of a lift if you're depressed.

It did for me, that's for sure.

[Winterblues]

5. What a huge waste of so little resources

One would think that when earning such a little amount, shoes for their children and decent clothing would be more important than supporting such a filthy addiction. But stupid is as stupid does I guess

[The Straight Story]

6. Sometimes DU reminds me of a fundie church (nt)

[napi21]

10. NO KIDDING! "iI think it's wrong, so YOU'RE bad for doing it!"

Sure does sound like the fundies to me too!

[The Straight Story]

13. Yeah, us sinners need to repent lest we go to hell - I watch TV too, eat meat,

Like guns, don't think people who have some form of religion are insane and need locked up (though I would call most political spectrums a form of religion since it is based on beliefs).

I used to liberals were pro choice and freedom for the individual, I doubt that sometimes here...

[DesertFlower]

23. i didn't see anyone call you

a sinner.

[Sebastian Doyle]

60. Smoking won't send you to Hell

It just makes you smell like you've been there. :evilgrin:

[DesertFlower]

12. i will not give money to

someone holding a sign saying that they need money if i see them smoking. does that make me a fundie?

[The Straight Story]

16. No, just judgemental and using your actions to teach them a lesson

live my way, or get nothing from me.

Kind of like some complain about those missions from churches that pass out food and put a pamphlet in it.

Maybe you should toss em a dollar and a pamphlet so they can learn to live better. Cause their choices are bad and they be needing to be learnt how to live the right way.

[DesertFlower]

20. i just don't want my hard earned

money spent on cigarettes instead of food. it's MY money and MY choice.

BTW. i'm a former smoker. i stopped 26 years ago when cigs were $1.05 a pack.

[Raksha]

80. I figure that once I give them the money it's no longer MY money.

It's theirs. So if they want to buy cigarettes, beer or whatever else with it, that's their business. Of course before you give it to them, it is YOUR money and you have the right to give it to whoever you want--or not. And be as judgmental as you want to about it.

Okay, granted, I smoke so that isn't something I'm likely to be judgmental about. But basically I feel that it's none of my business what they do with it. I've been down and out too, and even had to resort to panhandling myself a couple of times. So unless I'm flat broke myself, I try to help out anyone who asks me. If whatever-it-is buys them a few minutes' worth of comfort, and enables them to make it through one more day, it's worth it as far as I'm concerned. Because I've been there.

[reggie the dog]

90. your money, your choice

I agree with you, I just happen to give to smokers too. Miserable people look for little comforts in live, even addictions.

[Bake]

127. It's your money, true. Maybe they'll spend it on a bottle of Thunderbird instead.

Bake

[Gemini Cat]

177. Bully for you!

You have no idea how miserable it is out there, do you?
Have you ever bothered to look at the faces of the people who are homeless? Do you just look to see if they are smoking or doing whatever else you disapprove of?

I've seen people with that attitude before. If it's not smoking then it's something else. They'll be damned if they give change to someone that THEY in THEIR 'I'm better than you' righteous attitude deem unworthy.

What it basically boils down to is they blame the homeless for being homeless and would rather not have the great unwashed sullying up their pretty little view. They blame the homeless for 'personal failure' and other assorted rubbish. They just don't get it could happen to them as well.
Bragging they won't give money to a smoker or drinker or what have you is just a polite way of being a condescending self absorbed self-righteous nasty snob.

Give money or don't give money, it's your choice. However, once the smoking issue is resolved in your mind, what will be your next excuse?

[LanternWaste]

150. Much like refusing to give an individual five bucks...

"just judgemental (sic) and using your actions to teach them a lesson..."

Much like refusing to give an individual five bucks while they're wearing an Aryan nation t-shirt and holding a placard that says "White Power" is merely judgmental and using one's actions to teach them a lesson also.

But I doubt a dollar and pamphlet will do much good in dissuading the individual from his chosen course of action in either the long or the short term.

[Zynx]

210. Not all behavior is worth preserving.

Just because a lifestyle exists does not make it worthwhile. If I just sat at home all day and downloaded porn, is that a worthwhile activity that I should ask people to support me on?

[Runcible Spoon]

39. no but it makes you a judgmental ASSHOLE.

:puke:

[DesertFlower]

67. i'm not judging anyone.

they can smoke all they want, but i'm not giving them money for it.

[Threedifferentones]

138. Yeah

Someone whose only comfort in life is their miserable addiction clearly deserves no sympathy or support.

You are basically saying that you feel if you were out on the streets and had a need which feels as powerful as hunger you could kick the habit easily. Or that you would never be tempted to seek temporary comfort from a substance when your life has gone to shit. Because, if you do not feel that way, you would give a bum money even if he spends it on drugs.

I do not buy it, and I bet when things go wrong in your life the locus of control is suddenly a lot less internal than it is when you are judging homeless people.

[DesertFlower]

142. it seems there are enough people

like you who will give them money for their cigs. they don't need mine.

[Threedifferentones]

144. Well

Are you surprised you get flamed on a progressive site with an attitude that boils down to "well poor addicts don't need my help because they have yours"?

[DesertFlower]

146. Progressive?

i don't think it's very progressive to call people assholes, fundies, etc.

[Threedifferentones]

148. Even when they are?

[DesertFlower]

149. i think "so called" progressives

would be more tolerant of others.

this whole thread is ridiculous. we have people on both sides who are not going to change how they feel. i've said all i'm going to say.

[Runcible Spoon]

220. "I think "so called" progressives would be more tolerant of others" HA!

Well thanks for admitting that you are an intolerant asshole by your own logic! :crazy:

[Gemini Cat]

175. Well if the boot fits and all. nt

[Zynx]

211. Being judgemental is sometimes appropriate.

[Morning Dew]

78. That works.

These days I'll only give money to the ones who have signs that say they need money for smokes or alcohol.

It's probably going for that anyway - I appreciate the honesty.

[reggie the dog]

89. i sometimes give those people smokes

I ask them what their favourite brand is, what kind of beer or wine they like, and if they smoke hash. This happens a couple of times a year, but I have given people a pack of smokes, a sixer and a gram of hash along with five Euro to get a sandwhich. It cost me about 20 euro to do that, I do it once or twice a year. The people usually smile and thank me.

[Bake]

128. Many times they are not buying cigarettes, they're scavenging them.

I've seen homeless people rummaging through outdoor ashcans looking for butts with enough left on them to smoke.

Bake

[Withywindle]

204. Yeah, well, bully for you - bully.

If I can afford to give money, I do. Most of the time I can't. I certainly WILL give them cigarettes if they ask, though - because I know how much it sucks to be in withdrawal, on top of all the other miserable shit poverty inflicts.

Smokers have a social code, you know. You can ALWAYS ask for a smoke from a stranger if you need one. (This transcends race, gender, class, etc. - anyone can ask anyone.) We will ALWAYS give unless we're down to their last few and broke (and if that's REALLY the case, no shame in refusing, but I always search my soul pretty hard before I say no).

Not saying you should take up the nasty weed, but I have to say, that social code has a lesson in it than anyone could take a benefit from.

[Winterblues]

14. You are right it is very smart to spend thousands on tobacco when only earning

$5,000.-$15,000. a year. Very smart indeed..:crazy:

[The Straight Story]

17. It costs thousands because of the taxes (nt)

[wuushew]

30. Would you say the same of gasoline taxes?

If you eliminated the federal gas tax the price would not decrease. The former tax would just become additional profit for big oil.

Think it through and tell me how cigarettes and gasoline are different.

[Hannah Bell]

79. The profit margins of monopolies/oligopolies selling necessities or addictions

basically don't increase or decrease with taxation.

They can pick their margins at will, basically, & regulate demand, too.

For example:

Imagine cigarettes cost $1.00/pack. Ninety-five cents is the cost of production, five cents is profit.

Now add $1.00 in tax, & imagine that loses you 25% of your customers on the basis of price, but the remaining ones will pay the new price plus X.

At $2.05/pack new price v. $1.00/pack old price:


Cost of production: .95 v. .95

Tax collected: $0 v. $1

Total sales: 100 packs v. 75 packs

Total revenue: $100 v. $153.75

Total profit: $5 v. $7.5

Despite the tax & 25% reduction in consumption, profits still increase with just a marginal increase in pre-tax price. This is why tobacco corps are as profitable as ever, despite 30 years of tax hikes & a big drop in consumption.

Same thing with oil. There's effectively no competion or alternative without major disruption at the consumer level & both oil & tobacco consumers are "addicts," either physiologically or via economic necessity.

If you removed all the taxes, would the oil & tobacco corps just keep the difference?

No, I don't think so. I think charging higher prices but diverting it to government serves the interests of large monopolistic corporations in various ways. If the taxes were removed tomorrow, but the corps kept the prices the same, I think it would reduce their profit & power over the mid to long-range.

[hfojvt]

83. that's not true

http://ash.org/cigtaxfacts.html
here from 1999, the cost was $1.90 per pack, only 67 cents of which was taxes. So even in 1999 a pack a day smoker was spending $693.5 a year, and only 35% of that was because of taxes. I cannot find data on the current federal tax, or the average price, except that the average state tax is $1.19 per pack. Still, the non-tax part of it is costing about $500 a year, enough money for a desktop computer every year, or more, depending on how much is smoked.

[Hannah Bell]

85. Federal tax is currently .39 cents/pack, soon to be $1.00/pack.

State taxes range from $2.57/pack (NJ) to .15 cents/pack (MO). Median (1/2 of states above, 1/2 below) = $1.00.

Some municipalities also tax smokes.

Source = finance org, not a pro or anti-smoking site.

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/cigarett.html

Here in wash, the cheapest cigarettes i've seen in my area are around $4. Combined state & local taxes = $2.42; more than the non-taxed cost of the cheap smokes.

[reggie the dog]

92. ROLL YOUR OWN

tobacco is cheaper in cans than in pre rolled cigs. I do not smoke tobacco but I have lots of buddies that do that.

[rrneck]

25. No, it's not smart at all. But those with

low incomes also suffer all of the other problems that are a result of poverty which include a lack of education and the potential benefits that go along with it.

Poor people live from day to day and the working poor live from check to check. They usually don't enjoy the luxury of a hopeful future, or much of a future at all. So telling them that smoking will kill them "some day" has very little meaning.

Better to get a little pleasure now than to work toward a greater pleasure later that seems beyond your reach.

[Laurab]

38. Thanks for saying what I tried to say

much better than I did!

[rrneck]

77. You're welcome, but I think you

described what I have seen (and experienced a bit) quite well and with a great deal more empathy.

edit typo

[Laurab]

196. Well, I think you did, but no matter.

I've seen and experienced a bit myself - sometimes with people who had everything, and lost it due to addictions, and I have empathy for anyone who suffers with any kind of addiction, because I have struggled with my own, but I'm one of the lucky ones.

[jberryhill]

34. Just goes to show...

The poor deserve their lot, because they are amoral and make poor choices.

A lot of them drink, too.

[reggie the dog]

93. right

how dare they try to dull the reality of their mundane existances.

[Laurab]

37. I don't know that anyone thinks it's smart, but it IS an addiction.

And, wrong though it might be, it is a hard one to break. If someone is living on that little money, it's doubtful they have much of anything, anyway - it's likely they just don't give a damn.

Many people begging for money are drug addicts and alcoholics, too - I doubt any of them would use the money for anything most would approve of.

[pipi_k]

59. As a former smoker, I will agree that it's an addiction and

extremely hard to break.

But a little further downthread someone told a story about a guy who had to stay in the hospital (amputations) where it was totally impossible to smoke.

So, people who say there's no way they can quit...what do they, or what would they, do if faced with the same situation?

Many hospitals won't allow smoking anywhere on their premises. How do smokers handle this without going crazy?

See, because the thing that I find sad is, once a person manages to get him or herself past a certain point in the withdrawal process, they're pretty much over the hump, so to speak.

From then on, it's a conscious choice as to whether or not they pick up the first cigarette that will lead them right back down that path of addiction...just like a recovering alcoholic.

But many of them go back.

The first time I quit, it was for almost five years. I went back when my life got very chaotic. Stress. I can't blame anyone but myself for picking up that first cigarette.

This time it's been almost 13 years and I know it's up to me to NOT pick it up again.

anyway, I guess my point was that if people are able to stop smoking while they're sick or in a place where they absolutely cannot smoke, they are being rather stupid to pick it back up again.

[Mamacrat]

131. Nicotine in hospitals.

pipi_k, It's my understanding that they can give smokers nicotine in some other form while they are there so that they are not withdrawing. I would never expect someone to withdraw while they were dealing with other medical problems, unless it was medically neccessary. We have a family friend that smokes so much that when he was admitted for surgery several years ago he went through such a horrible withdrawal that they were convinced he was withdrawing from drugs. They had to convince them otherwise. They might have given him the nicotine then or at a later surgery, I can't remember.

[ipfilter]

137. My father in law recently went through a

aorto-bifemoral bypass surgery. His left toes were turning purple due to the lack of blood flow. His left femoral artery was completely blocked and his right leg was close behind. He had peripheral arterial disease from smoking. He was literally days away from losing his left leg due to the lack of blood flow. He was cut from the bottom of his sternum all the way down past his groin and about six inches into his legs. The surgeon had to graft in a synthetic artery from his aorta into his femoral arteries. It was an extremely traumatic and invasive surgery.

When he was released the first thing he did was smoke a cigarette. We were all stunned in disbelief. He chain smokes more now than before his surgery.

[Dervill Crow]

214. My dad was do-not-resuscitate and he got in his wheelchair and went downstairs and outside to smoke.

He coded right outside the ER and the team revived him.

It was bizarre. Not often do cigarettes save a life. And since he was dying of congestive heart failure it wasn't necessarily a good thing. This was in a VA Hospital.

[TahitiNut]

42. "earning"?? Did you EVER stop to think that many/most of those are retirees on fixed incomes???

No... I didn't think you did. :eyes:

[martymar64]

71. The view must be nice from your high horse

[reggie the dog]

91. thousands??? try 500 or 600 a year.

You can get by on 50 dollars a month in Drum, or Bugler tobacco and roll your own cigs. That will cost about 600 a year. You confuse tobacco with weed. I spend 50 a week on weed in the USA (only 50 a month here in France thanx to lower prices for simillar quality). So I easily went through 2600 a year on grass in the USA.

[bobbolink]

28. Got the judgementalism down pat!

"I'm soooo superior!"

Yup, that's the "progressive" way.

:puke:

[martymar64]

69. Must be tough being perfect, isn't it?

[reggie the dog]

88. You are confusing over priced crack with tobacco

illegal crack is way too expensive, so yes, crack smokers tend to buy crack instead of clothing. Tobacco smokers tend to buy generic tobacco, or roll their own cigs and buy clothing.

[quickesst]

100. Ah, the self-righteous and arrogant speak again...

I imagine it must be annoying to walk around with that aching bruise on both sides of your head, you know, from banging on the sides of doors you have to walk through. Expanding the doors in your house by app. three feet might solve that. Thanks.
quickesst

[sister taoist]

7. 50%? Whoa!!!! I think that Chinese men probably give them a run for their money, no?

As an ex-smoker, I know exactly what cigs can do. I find it a little unsettling how touchy smokers get about their habit. I had a friend die of lung cancer. He smoked three packs a day of "lights" and before that at least a pack of regs.

Looking at the bar graph, it concerns me that so many low income types smoke, when cigs are sooo expensive! And patches are NOT akin to quitting. You are still putting in the drug. Anyone can quit. They just have to taper off and change their other habits.

[The Straight Story]

11. Too many around here miss the point imho

It is not about smoking, it is about personal freedom and choice - on many topics.

If someone wants to open a bar that allows smoking, they should be free to do so, same if someone opens one and does not allow it.

Schip is supposed to help low income people, but it taxes something they use and those who voted for the tax increase know that. The did not see it as worthy of a real tax that does not depend on something the government wants you to stop doing anyway.

In other words, it is just plain stupid.

I would say the same about an alcohol tax, or a porn tax, whatever. You want to fund health care do it the right now.

[sister taoist]

18. Did you post another thread about smoking? Because this one doesn't seem to be about choice

My feeling is that these things are a two-way street. Just because poor people smoke more doesn't mean they should! And if they cannot afford to support themselves properly, why in blazes should we allow them to sicken themselves with cigs? That will just add more health care costs and their money is not being used wisely! Everyone has the responsibility, if they are being helped out, to live in a manner which is both thrifty and wise. Why the hell do you think it is not possible to use food stamps for cigs and alcohol?

Or would you like that to be changed, too?

[DesertFlower]

24. well said. nt

[TahitiNut]

45. "why in blazes should we allow them..."????????????

Wow. :wow:

"we"?
"them"?


That's condescension on steroids. That's just about the most sociopathic framing of this I've seen.

:wow:

[Raksha]

82. You picked up on that too!

"why in blazes should WE allow THEM..."

It just doesn't get any more revealing than that! Paternalistic as all hell.

[TahitiNut]

129. Yup.

Its rhetoric I heard during Jim Crow. Appalling. Really appalling.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catnhatnh]

51. Saw you on the other thread....

Remember the one where you asked me about how I became disabled and complained how my smoking was costing you? Again my disability stems from a traumatic back injury and my payments come from an insurance pool (SS) that I paid into for over 35 years. No one "asked" you to allow shit. I am not being "helped out"-I am being reimbursed. My 'wisdom" does not factor into the equation and you are a simple, moralizing , person.

[martymar64]

72. Yeah, damn those poor people. They're just so fucking stupid.

Why don't they just die already and save all of you good decent people the trouble of having to worry if they are getting any enjoyment or respite out of their miserable squalid lives, however meager.
I guess they'll never be as perfect and as enlightened as you, huh? If they're smart, they'll let you make all of their decisions for them and the world will become a wondrous utopia.

[Hannah Bell]

106. more like salem circa 1692, i suspect.

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reggie the dog]

94. I get aid from the government for my child here in France

Basically all people do, we get 177 euro per month for the kid, plus an additional 270 euro a month to pay for the nanny to watch her so we can go to work. We deduct our interest on our home loan from our income taxes and the government gave us a rebate of 300 euro, WE PAID NO INCOME TAX! So, because I, like all parents, get money from the state for my child I should stop smoking hash, to the tune of 60 euro a month, because I get public aid????? What about the people who buy more cakes than I do, or more electronic gadgets, or who spend 100 a month on their cell phone instead of my 30 a month, or 60 for TV instead of my 0?????? You give aid because it is a right of all people to be helped when they need to and you do not use that help as an excuse to bitch about their lifestlyes. This kind of reasoning led to the welfare state being called the nanny state.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

103. some of us are not fulfilling ze re-spon-si-bil-ities!!!!

report for discipline - tongue lashings & moral instruction from the liberals at du.

your little smiley is so cute.

[Marrah_G]

112. "why should we allow them"- That statement says it all

People like you scare me.

[SOS]

139. Re: your question

"Why the hell do you think it is not possible to use food stamps for cigs and alcohol? Or would you like that to be changed, too?"

Here's how it works on the mean streets of NYC:

Find a bodega that will swap the food stamps at 60% of face value for cash.
Example: $100 in FS gets "spent" on food and the customer gets $60 in cash.
Then the customer buys alcohol and cigarettes.

In the real world that law was "changed" decades ago.

[TahitiNut]

217. RIP, sister toast ... (it's the way of the fascist)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=236200

"taoist"? Hardly. :puke:

[Winterblues]

19. No you miss the point, it is how you treat fellow human beings

You don't blow poison on them or throw your butts on the ground for others to take care of for you. You seem to think you are the only one that is important. I don't care if you smoke just keep it to yourself. Is that really too much to ask?

[Hannah Bell]

104. and you know the poster is a smoke-blower & butt-thrower - how, exactly?

your post is highly ironic.

possibly you will miss the irony.

[Codeine]

191. Because all smokers are.

All smokers claim to be considerate and clean with the byproducts and accouterments of their addiction, but I've yet to meet even one who was.

[NashVegas]

41. It's All That Relaxation and Joy, Former Smokers Carry Around With Them

Most low income smokers buy generics.

I haven't had one for some 20 months now, but still consider myself a smoker at heart.

[Mamacrat]

132. Personal freedom.

The Straight Story, I agree to an extent. I'll be missing a great band this weekend because I already have a sinus infection and just can't take the smoke. But, where do you draw the line after restaurants and clubs? Should the smoking smoker in the check-out line at the grocery have to go to another line because they decided to light-up or should I? I'm not doing anything to the smoker, but what they are doing will make me sick.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

178. Don't try to convince them - it isn't worth your energy

Been there... They have a vendetta for some reason, and I have some theories but I won't speculate here, or it will really stir the hive.

[Hannah Bell]

200. no, stir the hive, i'm interested in your thoughts because it seems

the level of venom is pretty high toward 20% of the population banned from smoking in every workplace & every significant public or commercial space.

[DesertFlower]

15. be careful. you might be

called a "fundie" for saying that.

[corruptmewithpower]

8. I quit a year ago last September.

I was in the ICU for an unrelated ailment and couldn't smoke anywhere I could get to. I would have been one gnarly animal had my doctor not prescribed the patch. Thanks Doc!

[Gidney N Cloyd]

9. How does age figure in?

I'd assume the lower brackets also lean heavily toward younger people.

[TahitiNut]

44. On the contrary, I'd assume retirees on fixed incomes populate the lower brackets.

:shrug:

[Gidney N Cloyd]

56. Good point. But either way I'm curious if age might be the real driving factor. nt

[Hannah Bell]

105. according to the research i've seen, teens are price-insensitive -

they in fact go for prestige brands - because they don't have real habits yet. They smoke a few at a party, a couple a day, etc.

so higher prices don't really discourage youth experimentation. it's more a peer group thing.

don't know if that's what you meant by 'young' but i thought it was an interesting factoid.

[Wiley50]

21. When life is worth more it's more worth living

Living here on SSI, life is such a struggle that I care less if I go on living

It's painful to live this way so, in a way, it shortens the time I have to suffer

If I had more, life would be more fun

and I'd want it to last as long as possible

Who says "money isn't everything"?

Those that have plenty, that's who.

[Mari333]

26. you said what I think. thanks. nt

[bobbolink]

29. You're so right. And I'm sorry that it's that way for you. It's just not right!

:hug:

[Wiley50]

53. Thanks Bobbie, I know you understand also

We both are well aquainted with life on the bottom.

Take care. And thanks for managing the Poverty threads during Poverty Month

[bobbolink]

143. What a coincidence that I was writing an essay about this very thing........

........what people don't want to grasp.

That our lives are meaningless, we're told in so many ways that we not only have no worth, but that we're wrongfully taking up air and space, yet then when we want to die, we're locked up because we're "a danger to ourselves"!!

Talk aout CRAZY!!!!

That is really NUTZ!

Telling people they're in the way and then when they finally get it and want to remove themselves from "being in the way", they're locked up as "dangerous".

Now THAT'S crazy!!!!

This needs to be told by a chorus!!

:pals:

[Hannah Bell]

164. Yes, & i think more people are going to "get" how it works as the ego-supports

are removed from them in the economic downturn.

[bobbolink]

179. Those kinds of "ego supports" are pretty thin, anyway.

The actual worth of a person has much more to do with being accepted and cared about than status and $$$$.

Those of us who aren't accepted because we're on the bottom of the ladder have NONE of anything.

Maybe it's best that it ALL crashes.

Maybe the US would again regain some soul.

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

184. nevertheless, i'd take pleasure in seeing them removed from *certain* parties.

so they could provide an example to others, of course, as to how to properly handle poverty.

[TahitiNut]

47. Word.

:hug:

[Wiley50]

55. Wow, TahitiNut. With just a word you just made me feel so worthwhile

You are one of the DU people who I most admire

Thanks for the hugs

[TahitiNut]

57. You ARE worthwhile ... and NOTHING I (or anyone else) might say can change that.

Love and respect are each person's birthright ... and it is up to each of us merely to KNOW that. (Even about ourselves.) We're BORN that way ... lovable and capable ... and nobody can take it away.

:fistbump: You OWN it. :fistbump:

[Wiley50]

73. I used to know that

but that was another life

back before I became disabled

and lost my business, went through foreclosure and another divorce

Now I take and even ask for sometimes

more than my pride back then would have ever expected

and there's always a need for more

Anyway, Thanks

[TahitiNut]

74. I understand.

We share far more than you might think.

:fistbump:

[bobbolink]

180. "Nobody can take it away" Really???

Hmmm, that would assume that something is different about us, that we don't need the same love and acceptance that others need.

People get trashed enough, and of course they lose sense of worth!

Remember "No man is an island"?

NOBODY iS THAT STRONG.

We all need each other, and no amount of guilt changes that.

[SheilaT]

27. I really wonder if the two lowest

brackets are mostly the youngest smokers.

Cigarettes are so expensive that I can't really imagine an adult actually spending 50% or so of income on smokes.

I know a man who smoked for probably forty years or more, developed diabetes, wound up as a double leg amputee because of it. He said that being in the hospital completely unable to go outside for a smoke finally enabled him to quit. He felt that being institutionalized and completely unable to smoke might be the best way to go for a lot of people.

[nichomachus]

31. Part of it is that the rich have more expensive habits

At the core of all addictive behavior is the need to have something that acts on the central nervous system. For some it's drugs. It could be shopping. It could be gambling. It could be sex. the rich really have their choice of a wide variety of CNS agents. The poor have to make do with tobacco and alcohol.

[NashVegas]

43. Fantastic Post

For some it could be truffles.

$4500 per pound

http://edge.shop.com/ccimg.shop.com/210000/213700/213726/products/-!Fresh%20Winter%20White%20Truffles%20from%20Italy--50571749.jpg

[reggie the dog]

95. rich people spend more on powder cocaine

for example.

[Mind_your_head]

32. I don't believe that poll.

Smoking/non-smoking behaviors are waaaaaaay more complicated than rich vs. poor. (and at the price of cigerettes in the US at least, doesn't make any sense, hence doesn't have any meaning.)

This is some made-up fundie thing, I'm quite sure.

"the only thing that ever stopped me from believing in Jesus, the Christ was meeting people who proclaimed themselves to be 'Christians' "

[Taverner]

33. If I were poor I'd want to smoke too!

[TK421]

35. Stresses over personal financial worries? other things in life

The more money one makes, the less they are inclined to smoke? Am I reading this correctly? If not, I apologize....I've had a very long day

[eridani]

36. Looks like another one of those class reversals to me

Being pale and plump used to say that you didn't have to work all day in the hot sun like the lower orders. These days being lean and tan says that you ski in the winter and play tennis in the summer, unlike the lower orders indoors in offices and factories. Note the total lack of correlation to health risk factors. Tan is good regardless of its increasing the risk of skin cancer, a fact which makes the so-called "health" issue as a reason for cultural disgust with fat totally bogus.

Smoking used to be urbane and sophisticated. It used to be that baked goods made with highly refined flour were luxurious; now it's the whole grain darker breads that are more expensive.

[Raksha]

81. Class reversal...there seems to be a whole lot of that going around,

especially where smoking is concerned. Being a nonsmoker is practically a prerequisite for being considered middle-class or higher these days, not economically but socially. You can see it on these DU smoking threads more than just about anywhere else.

[Hannah Bell]

111. like laura bush & obama, you mean?

like this style maven:



or this one:





hint: it matters more in the middle than at the top.

[Mamacrat]

135. Young and old?

Hannah Bell, I think your comment on the "middle" along with the photos brings up a good point someone else made in part. The high percentage at the lower end of income probably comes from both young people who might be just trying it out and not become lifelong smokers and those who are older who began smoking before they realized the health consequences, who might also be again in the lower income bracket, although that certainly doesn't include the women whose photos you posted.

[Hannah Bell]

160. not young & old. top - diana vreeland, long-time editor of vogue. she was

always elegantly ugly.

bottom: jackie o, chainsmoker, when she was pushing 60 or so. money keeps you young, even if you smoke.

on edit, you were saying something different, sorry for failure to read properly.

[Hannah Bell]

107. exactly. whatever the upper orders do is the model; whatever the lower

orders do is denigrated.

then the denigrated behavior is said to cause the real offense, which is: being poor.

& the nasty, fawning middle-class wanna-be's leap in to be the enforcers of lower-class humiliation, partly to demonstrate how far removed they are from "that", to themselves & anyone listening.

Raise tobacco prices out of reach for the poor & put it in ritzy addresses again & I guarantee, some of the most sanctimonius anti-smoking nazis will have their own silver cigarette holder.

[Raksha]

147. Very well said, Hannah Bell!

Re whatever the upper orders do is the model; whatever the lower orders do is denigrated.

then the denigrated behavior is said to cause the real offense, which is: being poor.

& the nasty, fawning middle-class wanna-be's leap in to be the enforcers of lower-class humiliation, partly to demonstrate how far removed they are from "that", to themselves & anyone listening.

It's also why there are so many more arrests for crack smoking than for using powder cocaine. Crack is a lower-class "ghetto drug" while powder cocaine is an upper-class "yuppie drug." But it's exactly the same drug!

Not that I'm telling you anything that you and everyone else here doesn't know already.

Edited to add: Hell, I'm old enough to remember when having a tattoo was an indicator of being lower class. Not any more!!!

[Hannah Bell]

163. tatoos - another good example. no war but the class war, we're soaking in it.

(you'll probably get the reference if you remember when tatoos were lower-class.)

[dysfunctional press]

40. they forgot one of the largest categories...

gross people with yellow teeth & brown fingers and who smell like ashtrays.

[TahitiNut]

48. Thanks for the misanthropic perspective.

:eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

49. no problem.

:hi:

[reggie the dog]

97. do you really only make friends with non smokers?

[dysfunctional press]

158. not on purpose...

but no- i don't have any friends that smoke/use tobacco.

[Hannah Bell]

108. not so bad as gross people with tiny little hearts & world views, though.

[dysfunctional press]

159. most of the time, they're one in the same.

nt

[Hannah Bell]

166. oh, it's "question all," whose unflagging non-questioning of the status quo

can always be counted on.

[many a good man]

46. Benefits of NOT smoking go far beyod money saved

Easier to breathe. Food tastes much better. More energy. Clothes don't stink. Don't have to stand out in the cold to get your fix. Don't have to clear your throat of tarry mucus every two minutes.

Yeah, I look forward to quitting again - quit for nine months last year before falling hard off the wagon. March 17th is my new quit date. Wish me luck.

To all my fellow smokers: you'll quit one day - hopefully long before you croak. The sooner the better. When you're ready, you'll quit. And you won't regret it.

[Mamacrat]

50. Mental Illness and Smoking

One aspect of lower income people smoking could be mental illness. I once read that people with mental illnesses such as schizophrenia have a much higher rate of smoking. And that it is not just a correlation, which could be due to simply being poor and not planning long-term. I think what someone else wrote about it acting on the central nervous system could be more on the mark. Search "schizophrenia" or "mental illness" and "smoking" if you are interested.

[catnhatnh]

54. I often wonder what the coerelation is....

between being a smug, self-righteous asshole and wanting to restrict others peoples freedom to behave in legal behavior. One aspect of being that way is you come across as a total jerk. Search "mental illness" or the name of posters who exhibit the behavior if you are interested.

[Upton]

58. I've got an idea

why don't you search mental illness, for the reason why anybody would have the gall to try and defend the practice of inhaling carcinogens and then in turn exhaling them on others.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

62. try searching mental illness and anti smoking nazis

[Hannah Bell]

113. why don't you search it for the reason behavior nazis imagine smokers

are lying in wait everywhere to breathe smoke in their faces when smoking is banned in almost all public places.

[Upton]

123. Couple of questions

secondhand smoke is classified as a known human carcinogen, how can you justify exhaling such a hazardous substance anywhere near non smokers or children?

On a lighter note...do you enjoy smelling like an old ashtray?

[JANdad]

134. Do you enjoy being an asshole

of monumental proportions?

[Hannah Bell]

157. He enjoys the feeling of superiority mediocrities get from denigrating those perceived

as less powerful.

Concentration camp guard syndrome.

[Hannah Bell]

156. auto exhaust is classified as a carcinogen, & oil is responsible for

increases in birth defects & other ills all the way up the production chain.

How do you live with your 'choice'?

Oh, everyone uses that particular carcinogen, so it doesn't count in the holier than thou sweepstakes.

[Upton]

172. Well if that be the case

who needs cigarettes? May I suggest you take a good hit off the nearest tail pipe and and chase it by swigging down a quart of oil..that ought to give you your self destructive behavior fix...

[Hannah Bell]

176. such is the logic of the behavior nazis. There's no answer to the fact that

oil & its products = carcinogens, & nearly every US citizen uses them & puts them into the atmosphere, in massive quantities, without a second thought.

Since they can't rebut reality - & reality is, the environmental cost of oil use massively overshadows the environmental cost of tobacco use - the behavior nazi tells me to kill myself.

which pretty much shows where they're ultimately coming from.

[Mamacrat]

130. Smoking and Schizophrenia

Smoking and Schizophrenia

Thanks to research advances, scientists are learning how and why smoking and schizophrenia are so tightly linked. Nicotine—in cigarettes and other forms—appears to help normalize some of the cognitive and sensory deficits that people with this disorder experience. Scientists have looked inside the brain to uncover regions involved in deficits of schizophrenia and to learn how and where nicotine works to combat them. Now, enhanced knowledge is helping scientists develop drugs to treat this debilitating disorder. http://www.sfn.org/index.cfm?pagename=brainbriefings_smoking

People with mental illnesses are often poor. And they are also more likely to smoke.

Edit to add: This discovery is leading some to consider giving the nicotine to those in this condition in some other form than smoking, which would greatly cut down on lung cancer. That's a very good development!

On another note related to your incredibly hostile reply, I have many found smokers before the restrictions on public use to be profoundly rude and clearly restricted our right to breathe clean air. They are very defensive, even going as far as claiming what is now labeled as "third-hand smoke" would not be a problem for my toddler son because it's not actually second-hand, said as if I were an idiot. Okay, it's not actually second-hand, but third-hand (glad we cleared that one up), and it reeks on smokers. REEKS! I have been in quite a few doctor's offices lately where many older patients are the norm and can not believe the incredible stench of many of them from the smoke, including in the pulmonologist's office. And almost anyone who smokes is convinced they don't smell of it. They do! It's on their clothes, in their skin and on their furniture even if they don't smoke inside because it comes in on their... well... clothes and skin. This point wasn't related to the original poster's information, nor my reply, but since you were so hostile you reminded me why I'm so glad smoking is illegal.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

61. What a crock

miss 23 posts. you are trying to plant the seed that low income people and smokers have a greater disposition towards mental illness? take it somewhere else.

[Upton]

63. Actually it makes sense

there's an obvious connection between smoking, lack of education and lower income... mental illness flourishes in these groups..

[catnhatnh]

66. Oh Look!!!

The "Eugenics Ken" doll has found a new target.

[Hannah Bell]

115. he's one of those, too? figures.

always plenty of folks available to guard the concentration camps of the future.

[Hannah Bell]

114. you're pretty ignorant of history, but schooling you wouldn't do much good,

i'm afraid.

[Upton]

120. Apparently, schooling you about the hazards

of smoking and secondhand smoke hasn't done you much good either..

[Two Americas]

206. good grief

You cannot be serious.

Well, I am glad to see these posts, because it gives people glimpse into the minds of the anti-smoking fanatics.

[Mamacrat]

136. Defensive!

So, the fact that I have few posts negates what I wrote? I didn't say that low income people have a disposition to mental illness; I said that people who are mentally ill (and noted a very serious mental illness) are usually lower income. Can you deny that? If this were a thread on mental illness I have a feeling many of you who are defending smoking would be defending the income/illness (of any sort) correlation, probably noting that poverty can aggravate an existing mental illness. There isn't judgment in that statement. It's what people in the mental health field deal with all the time. You could infer that I was being judgmental towards those who do not grasp this problem and address it, but you did not. You do not know me, "miss 23 posts," so you just assume I was attacking those with mental illness, those who are impoverished, or smokers and judged me instead.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

174. Offensive!!

You sounded pretty judgmental to me, arrogant and elitist. just my opinion of course.

[Hannah Bell]

110. it's just more bullshit to style smoking "abnormal" behavior.

when nearly half the population smoked, do you think it was the crazy half?

are japanese & french people crazier than americans, since they smoke more?

every study that comes down the pike is not gospel writ. people tend to publicize the ones that suit their biases, & the ones that get funded & published tend to suit the biases of the paymasters.

[Upton]

167. Paying good money to inhale carcinogens

IS abnormal...as is the denial associated with such destructive behavior. A smoker is by definition a drug addict, so it comes as no surprise that smokers would follow much the same pattern, denial being one of the key components, as those addicted to other substances.

[LostinVA]

169. You are just baiting people by making stuff up now -- knock it off

And, I'm an ex smoker who has little patience for certain self righteous smoking memes (I used to say them, too). But you? Cracking on the poor with a screwed up non-fact.

[Dukkha]

52. is this cigarettes only?

The wealthy tend to be cigar aficionados. Interesting Turkey is the biggest smoking nation per capita. I expected France to be.

mmmmmm....smoked turkey :9

[Bryn]

64. Interesting! It looks like to me

that the Rich can afford more expensive drugs thus they don't smoke those smelly cigarettes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. So why would poverty and smoking be so closely related? Hmmm...

It's apparently bad form to say the $6-a-pack-obvious.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

70. go ahead - drink the koolaid that ignorant =low income=smokers...

MANY started smoking in college btw.

[Bryn]

75. I found forum for e-cigarettes

I am looking into e-cigarettes and found something really really interesting from that forum. E-cigarettes consist no tobacco, no smokes, no awful smell..just vapors in different flavors yet Australia put a ban on it just because they couldn't collect tax on it!

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/law-e-cigarette/4860-australian-ban-egar-illegal.html

You just can't win with the anti-smoking lobby. They've got that one-eyed self righteous approach, and the fanatical zeal to ruin everyone's fun.

[Hannah Bell]

116. heh - i did. all my bad habits started there, i'd have been better off

if i'd stayed with my own kind & remained "stupid" -

except i'd never have learned what a scam the whole set-up is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. Good thing I could never afford college then.

By a funny coincidence, At age 47 I just happen to have about as much money in the bank as I would have spent on cigarettes. Weird.

[Hannah Bell]

154. Give Obama your tip on weath accumulation, I'm sure he'll quit immediately.

At age 30 I had more money in the bank than I ever spent on cigarettes. Because I had a good-paying job & no taste for the usual consumer items.

[lumberjack_jeff]

187. 'Smoke and get rich'. Thanks for the investment tip. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

201. didn't say that, did i? conversely, "smoke & get poor" doesn't necessarily follow, either.

[Bryn]

76. and The Rich gets more

cocaine....cocaine...cocaine...because they can afford it. And they are smart????? Wow!

[Hannah Bell]

84. For a pack-a-day smoker, it's $2190, $6.50/pack is the cost of yuppie cigarettes

(e.g. american spirit) in this high-tax state.

Roll-your-own or generics are much less.

Don't know if you know the history, but tobacco historically was mainly an upper-class consumption item.



That's why, in old English novels, the society gentlemen, after dinner, move into the "smoking room" & take out their silver cigarette cases & cigars.

That's why, in movies of the 20s & 30s, it's the society folk you'll mainly see smoking, not the working classes - unless it's a corncob pipe.

Smoking moved down the income distribution with mass production, mass marketing, & price reductions.

The ads of the 20s/30s are mostly populated by high-society folk: the appeal is to status, an invitation to be suave like the high-class folk. This society lady is the daughter of financier Jay Gould:




But with prices down & the non-rich using, tobacco use becomes declasse' - wealthier people reduced their use so as not to resemble the hoi polloi, & ads/promotions changed too; the appeals were smoke & be like:

1) movie star




2) successful white collar guy




2) tough, independent working guy;






3) artist/rebel.




The last two being especially attractive to the disempowered & authority/hierarchy-resentful.


I grew up in an era when it was de rigeur for white-collar strivers to hold cocktail parties & smoke mightily. Their drug habits didn't make them poor. Similarly, trust-fund folk use heroin (e.g. Kennedys, William Burroughs, 'Eurotrash') & stay in or rejoin high society with few repercussions.

On average, members of an economic class aren't poor (or rich) because of the drugs they use; they use the drugs they do because of their class membership.

The claim that poor people are poor because of their drug use is old: the same was said of the slum dwellers of the industrial revolution & gin (gin being another drug that began as an "upper class thing" & moved down the income ladder):



Poor people exist, as a class, because of the economic structure of society that forms them, not because of drug use. But it's convenient to pretend otherwise. & the rich who work them & the strivers who identify with the rich have always pretended otherwise.

[Two Americas]

86. well done

Thanks Hannah.

Tobacco has fallen out of favor with the upper class. That is why smokers are under such assault. The health issues and the smell and the other complaints that people have would not warrant such fervor and fanaticism about it. The angry and hostile and punitive attitude that people have can only come from a much stronger drive - a desire to identify with the upper class.

The overwhelming desire to identify with the upper class among liberals, and to hold the working class in contempt, is what sabotages the Left in this country. The anti-smoking fanaticism is but one expression of that.

Smoking is the gift that keeps on giving for liberals. Smoking lets them express their hatred for "them" and feel superior and act authoritarian and disguise it as a health concern. That makes it easier to keep the two contradictory ideas of modern liberalism reconciled in their minds: claiming to be opposed to the right wing and the ruling class and to be on the side of the working people, while at the same time strongly identifying with the ruling class and embracing all of the premises and assumptions upon which the political right is based. Anti-smoking lets a person beat up on working class people "for their own good." Being able to feel superior and self-righteous and look down on the common people is the emotional need that modern liberalism fills for people, and the pursuit of that emotional need always trumps any political ideals or principles. Support for an extremely regressive tax on tobacco is an example of that emotional need superseding political principles.

With the coming Depression and the near certainty of imminent massive social unrest, holding those two contradictory views in one's mind simultaneously will become more and more difficult.

[Hannah Bell]

102. "would not warrant such fervor and fanaticism about it."

sure agree with you there.

the rationale for taxing smokers, & only smokers, to pay for poor kids' health care escapes me, but seems most of the good liberals are entirely ok with it.

they probly think smoking causes poor uninsured children, in addition to lung disease. 'cause smoking causes poverty, therefore it causes poor uninsured children whose parents smoke up the money for insurance.

[TahitiNut]

153. Well said.

It appalls me how much misanthropy and sociopathy is evident in the zealous anti-smoker brigade. So much so that I tend to regard the inferences that mental illness is a tobacco-related malady as sheer projection.

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. Thank you for this Hannah

I'm not suggesting that people smoke and are poor are displaying symptoms of the same moral failing. I am suggesting that tobacco companies have found that to maximize their market share, they needed to exploit all socio-economic levels.

I would think it is simply a math problem and thus not so controversial. If 10 or 15% of your income is dedicated to recreational drug use, that either represents a big portion of your discretionary income (which won't be available for education, or training, or "interview clothes" or reliable transportation) or a hit on your non-discretionary income in which case you must choose between food, shelter, health and heat. Once that poor choice infringes on the discretionary expenses that have some positive benefit on your earning capacity, it won't be long before it begins to impact your non-discretionary expenses.

Here's the deal. I'm happy to help anyone in need. I'm happier to help those who demonstrate through good choices that they have the skills to benefit from the help.

2 packs a day @$4.50 is half my grocery budget. It is an extremely poor economic choice.

[Two Americas]

152. conditional help

You are willing to make those who make good choices, and not those who make bad choices.

The best economic choices are those that exploit people and are self-serving. The worst economic choices are those that contribute to society. Individual personal choices and habits have little of anything to do with economics, and saying that they do is to promote the central idea of libertarian individualism.

"Make the right choices and you will do well" is a lie.

Being willing to help people providing that the recipients do what you want them to do is more about control than it is about charity. It is exactly the doctrine that Rick Warren is applying in his charitable work. He may have different ideas as to just what those "right choices" might be that you do, but the basic principle is the same.

Wealthy people will be able to smoke and make whatever wrong choices they like regardless of what happens. So what you are saying is that people must earn freedom, and they must earn it on the "free market" - a rigged and destructive system - and people's worth and rights are dependent upon their wealth.

That doctrine, that system, is infinitely more deadly that tobacco will ever be. But we can't tax that. No, we will go after poor people for "making the wrong choices."

[lumberjack_jeff]

190. "The best economic choices are those that exploit people and are self-serving"

Whaa?

So you mean when I vote for a school levy, that's.... bad? Or are you saying that education is a good economic choice which is exploitative and self serving?

Giving a hungry person money to buy smokes does no one any good. He's still hungry and I'm broke.

[Two Americas]

198. hard to get our minds around, yes

The bad choices are rewarded. The good choices are punished.

We are constantly bombarded with messages about this and told that the opposite is true. As is so often the case, the best lie is the one that is the exact opposite of the truth. Those lies are like mirror images of the truth. They look vaguely familiar, they have the same shape as the truth, and so they fool us.

I think this is the source of much of our frustration and confusion. We keep trying to make something work that can never work.

Arguing about school levies and smoking - how much lower can we sink?

Out best urges, our most productive and compassionate "choices" are severely punished. The most clever liars and thieves among us are lavishly rewarded and prosper. I don't know how that could be more obvious than it is. People go through so many convolutions with their thinking, spend so much time and energy, just so they can avoid the truth and keep the illusion going.

[lumberjack_jeff]

215. I'm not sure we're really arguing about school levies or smoking.

Setting aside the health effects, I'm suggesting that purchasing cigarettes is a poor economic decision, and I should think that it is pretty obviously a poor choice. Taking that a step further, I don't think it strains credibility too much to suggest that those who make poor economic choices tend to be poorer.

There can be some ambiguity about the tradeoffs between short-term vs long-term, but there is such a thing as good choices which reward the decisionmaker.

Frugality is one of those things. It trades off immediate gratification for a longer term reward.

[Two Americas]

218. what I am saying

You are trying to explain who is doing well and who is not based in the personal choices people are making as individuals. Anything that shifts the discussion from public policy to personal choice will always advance the politics of the right.

The more productive, the more humble, the more frugal, the more socially responsible, the more people are punished.

The more predatory, exploitative, dishonest, and greedy the more people are rewarded.

People desperately want to deny this. That is why there is so much fanaticism about tobacco. It is one area where it seems as though problems are being caused by "bad choices." But the "bad choices" argument is used everywhere, to defend and apologize for all sorts of ways in which people are harmed. Advancing the "bad choices" argument anywhere gives it more weight everywhere,

[lumberjack_jeff]

219. I understand what you are saying. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

155. You know the person asking for your help smokes 2 packs a day at $4.50?

As opposed to 1/2 ppd at $3.50, or butts from the street?

You know smoking is a poor choice indicating low skills - as opposed to a crutch helping them off a worse drug habit, a lower-cost sub for anti-anxiety meds, etc.?

Do as you please, but you don't know other people's cost/benefit tabulations.

[Two Americas]

165. "other people's cost/benefit tabulations"

People do so many destructive and anti-social things in the pursuit of money, and take so many risks for the sake of excitement, yet if they are socially approved - if they fit into an upper class narrative about our "lifestyles" - they cannot be challenged.

Prescription medications are far more dangerous than tobacco, but they are not only not subject to the same sort of criticism, but are actually aggressively promoted with the same moralistic zeal that is used to attack smokers by the same people who attack smokers.

Location is by far the greatest predictor for disease, not personal habits, which strongly suggests an environmentalism cause. Stress is another strong cause of disease, and that stress comes from the "success at any cost" mentality and the authoritarianism we are subjected to at every turn.

Let's tax and punish the predators among us, the bullies and authoritarians, the "winners," those who are selfishly destroying the environment and making life miserable for all of us, not the poor people doing whatever they can to cope with that and stay sane and survive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. I don't have to "know" anything. It's my money and I'll direct it to the causes of my choosing.

I don't need to know anyone else's cost/benefit calculations. I have my own.

I won't buy anyone's cigarettes.

[Hannah Bell]

203. no one cares what you do with your money.

[Locrian]

109. personal freedom

>>It is not about smoking, it is about personal freedom and choice - on many topics.

Ahh the old "populist" argument that is trotted out to justify things. I *get* that we should be free to choose, I really do. But be aware of exactly WHY you are choosing - is it because you are really free? or is it because you are being sold an IMAGE of "freedom", "rebelliousness", etc by the advertisers?

[Hannah Bell]

117. there's the rub, eh? the original 'choice' is generally made before people

even know the world or themselves - simply because of being born at a certain time, place, position in a matrix of relations of influence - which create the entity that 'chooses'.

otoh, the same can be said of non-smokers' 'choice' - they didn't either.

[pmorlan1]

118. Unfair taxation

After viewing this chart it makes me sick that so many politicians climb on the back of smokers whenever they want to raise money. I'd sure like to see more non-smokers oppose these moves that stick it to the people who can least afford it instead of cheering it on or remaining silent. For instance our governor in Kentucky recently proposed to raise the tax on cigarettes by 70 cents a pack so that he could help eliminate the state's projected $456 million revenue shortfall. Why are smokers singled out to carry the burden for everyone else? Because they are in a minority and the majority lets it happen. It's pathetic.

[rucky]

140. Yes, let's tax (punish) the people who already have an addiction...

can't afford the means to treat it, barely afford the means to support it, and tend to have more stress in their lives.

We need to back off of the smokers and find another cash cow, or fund treatment for the addiction.

[Freddie Stubbs]

141. Not just a minority -- A shrinking minority

Each year a smaller and smaller percentage of the population smokes. That means than smokers have less and less political clout. Higher cigarette taxes will cause the number of smokers to further dwindle. States will then have to squeeze more and more money out of each smoker just to stay even with previous years' tax revenues.

[Raksha]

151. A shrinking minority with less and less political clout.

Absolutely true! You'd think real liberals would oppose this trend instead of cheering it on or remaining silent.

[Jamastiene]

161. Kill kill kill kill the poor! Kill kill kill kill the poor! Kill kill kill kill the poor, tonight!

All systems go to KILL THE POOR TONIGHT!

There is nothing more PERFECT that I can think of to contribute to the abomination that is this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOe2ptO3_GQ

There is nothing in this world that I hate more than a Lifestyle Nazi. Blow it out your ass.

You want a class war? Good, let's go. All I gotta do is light a cigarette and blow some smoke on you and you'll melt. War over! The poor won. We'll be here with the cockroaches after your lily white ass has long since melted with the fucking wicked witch. You're not getting rid of us that easy.

[Upton]

171. You're fading away

a CDC report from late last year showed that less that 20% (19.8%) of Americans now smoke. The report goes on to say that smoking prevalence has been dropping steadily among those 18 and older since it began keeping records in 1965.

Smokers have become pariahs, they're looked at with a combination of humor, pity and disgust......thankfully, one day they'll all be gone.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

195. You believe what the government tells you?

I pity you on so many levels.

[Upton]

197. No.. actually I prefer to rely

on Phillip Morris and RJ Reynolds.

[Hannah Bell]

202. The government subsidizes them. They're not going anywhere, you don't

understand the game. They're more profitable than ever.

The government & the tobacco corps are partners, not opponents.

[Two Americas]

205. unbelievable

"Smokers have become pariahs, they're looked at with a combination of humor, pity and disgust......thankfully, one day they'll all be gone."

Is the a way to tax authoritarians and busy bodies? Maybe we could get rid of them. I think they are far more dangerous than tobacco will ever be, and kill far more people.

[Jamastiene]

162. Dupe

It only needed to be said once to get the point across.

[Zywiec]

170. I think a similar chart with the education of smokers

could be shown that the more education one has, the least likely they are to smoke.

I guess that's pretty obvious to most.

[Hannah Bell]

181. stinky, wasteful, undeserving, mentally ill - *and* stupid.

wow, what else you guys got?

[Zywiec]

182. I knew it wouldn't be hard to find such a chart

showing the relationship between education and smokers.

You can come to your own conclusion about what it means, but as I said before, I think it's pretty obvious.

[Hannah Bell]

183. No, you tell me. I'd like to benefit from your wisdom.

[Zywiec]

185. I'll offer what wisdom I can

If you don't have enough education to know that smoking causes cancer, heart disease and chronic lung disease, you're more likely to do it. Less educated: more smoking. More educated: less smoking.

If you can't control what you stick into your body, can you really say you have any control over your life?

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

194. pretty much as expected.

do you honestly think there's anyone over the age of 10, no matter how "educated," who doesn't know smoking causes cancer, etc.?

[Hannah Bell]

199. Here's the graphic this thread started with:

Posters are obsessed with the bottom (though the *very* poorest smoke less than the somewhat poor), but ignore the stepwise distribution:

The poor smoke more than the lower middle, who smoke more than the middle.

The middle smokes more than the upper middle.

The upper middle smokes more than the richest.

Are the upper middle *really* smarter & more educated than the middle?

Are the richest people *really* the only people who *really* comprehend smoking causes cancer (except for that *stupid* 13%)?

Why is nearly every poster on this thread obsessing over the supposed deficits & social pathologies of poor people???

The middle income group smokes only 6% less, why is no one telling *them* they could rise above their miserable position if they'd just put their cigarette money into a savings account?

The significance of your education piece? Duh, educational achievement is associated with family income level & educational achievement.

The most important predictor of poverty is growing up poor:

"Two 1992 studies using highly sophisticated statistical techniques find strong evidence that in the United States, the father-son income correlation is about 0.4...twice as large as previously thought, and depicts a much less mobile society...than earlier estimated.

...a correlation of 0.4 suggests that the son...has a 0.42 chance of remaining in the bottom 20 percent, a 0.24 chance of rising above the median, and a 0.05 chance of reaching the top 20 percent. These findings do not suggest that the sons of low-income fathers are condemned to live their father's lives; but they do suggest that father's income status can act as a significant predictor of son's success."


People grow up poor because they're born into a society divided into classes, where the supply of jobs & income is artificially limited & inequitably distributed.

In this world people who are *not* poor are encouraged to *explain* the cause of poverty as stupidity, mental illness, tobacco use, & ignore the obvious: the distribution of jobs & income is stratified, the odds are you will wind up where you started in the distribution, & SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS BE ON THE BOTTOM.

Why do poor people smoke more than other income groups?

The most significant reason is that most grew up around poor people who smoked, & they imitated what they saw, like normal children anywhere.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Why, even after I take the trouble to document the history: (poor people used to be LESS likely than the rich to smoke) do people persist in labeling tobacco use as a peculiar pathology of the poor, or smoking as the cause of poverty?

The reasons smoking is currently more prevalent among poor people has a history - like everything else.

Middle-class "education" can sometimes cause horrible stupidity.

[bobbolink]

207. It's the "New Progressive"---as judgmental as the RW.

Quite attractive, isn't it?

[LynneSin]

173. It's a shame because the poor are just making it worse for themselves

and it seems like smoking is targetted just for these groups - a chance to keep the poor even poorer.

At $3-$10 a pack - who can afford to spend $20-$100 a week on an addiction or $90-$300 a month on a habit like this.

[LaraMN]

186. If your life feels relentlessly hopeless, five minutes of pleasure is priceless.

When I smoked, I'd rather have gone without food than a cigarette. Some days the only good moments I could find were those I spent smoking.
It was utter hell to quit. Utter hell.

[Codeine]

192. That "pleasure" is simply

the relief of feeding an addiction. Your misery stems, in part, from having a relentless urge to do what your brain is screaming at you.

[Two Americas]

221. more to it than that

Even if what you say is true, so what? "you are just an addict" is a way to condemn and control people.

How did punishing drinkers work out during prohibition? How is punishing pot smokers working out?

Let's say that addiction is all that there is to this. Would that not then lead to sympathy, and a healing model for addressing it rather than a condemnation and punishment model?

Can we tax arrogance, self-righteousness and hypocrisy somehow? That would save a lot more lives and make life so much better for everyone.

[crimsonblue]

188. well duh...

When I have the money, I get coke.

[excess_3]

213. the poor should not have cars, tax tax tax

cars are dangerous

(sarcasm)