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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:14 PM
Original message
Eliminate Filibuster and With it the Need to Debate Republicans
From the pains Democrats take to out-argue and/or to compromise with the fringe minority party called the Republicans you'd think no other course of action was available, specifically you'd have to assume that the filibuster -- the power of senators representing 11 percent of us to block all work by the House and Senate -- is written in stone. In reality, 51 senators could eliminate the filibuster or change the number of votes required to use it. This nation got along for many years without the filibuster and could do so again. It is no more a part of our Constitution than the CIA, enemy combatants, corporate persons, or the political parties that allow the filibuster to wreak such havoc with our so-called democracy.

For the most part we no longer have representatives in Congress, because of the corruption of money, the weakness of the media, and the strength of parties. There are not 535 opinions on Capitol Hill on truly important matters, but 2. Our supposed representatives work for their party leaders, not for us. Luckily, one of the two parties claims to want to work for us.

When the Democrats were in the minority and out of the White House, they told us they wanted to work for us but needed to be in the majority. So, in 2006, we put them there. Then they told us that they really wished they could work for us but they needed bigger majorities and the White House. So, in 2008, we gave them those things, and largely deprived them of two key excuses for inaction. We took away the veto excuse and came very close to taking away the filibuster excuse, and -- in fact -- the filibuster excuse could be taken away completely if the Democrats didn't want to keep it around.

This is not to say that either excuse was ever sensible. The two most important things the 110th Congress refused to do (ceasing to fund illegal wars, and impeaching war criminals) did not require passing legislation, so filibusters and vetoes were not relevant. But the Democrats in Congress, and the Republicans, and the media, and the White House all pretended that wars could only be ended by legislation, so the excuses for not passing legislation loomed large. The veto excuse is now gone. The filibuster excuse could be gone this week if Senator Harry Reid wanted it gone, or if President Obama appointed a Republican senator from a state with a Democratic governor to a cabinet position without allowing a corrupt deal on the senator's replacement, or if the House and Senate were to give Washington D.C. voting representation.

The filibuster excuse works like this. Any 41 senators can vote No on "cloture", that is on bringing a bill to a vote, and that bill will never come to a vote, and anything the House of Representatives has done won't matter. Plus any of the other 59 senators, the 435 House members, the president, the vice president, television pundits, and newspaper reporters can blame the threat of filibuster for anything they fail to do.

Now, the Senate itself is and always has been and was intended to be an anti-democratic institution. It serves no purpose that is not or could not be more democratically accomplished by the House alone. The Senate should simply be eliminated by Constitutional Amendment. But the filibuster is the most anti-democratic tool of the Senate, and can be eliminated without touching the Constitution, which does not mention it. If you take 41 senators from the 21 smallest states, you can block any legislation with a group of multi-millionaires elected by 11.2 percent of the American public. That fact is a national disgrace that should be remedied as quickly as possible.

The filibuster was created by accident when the Senate eliminated a seemingly redundant practice of voting on whether to vote. Senators then discovered, after a half-century of surviving just fine without the filibuster, that they could block votes by talking forever. In 1917 the Senate created a rule allowing a vote by two-thirds of those voting, to end a filibuster. In 1949 they changed the rule to require two-thirds of the entire Senate membership. In 1959 they changed it back. And in 1975 they changed the rule to allow three-fifths of the Senators sworn into office to end a filibuster and force a vote. Filibustering no longer requires giving long speeches. It only requires threatening to do so. The use of such threats has exploded over the past 10 years, dominating the decision-making process of our government and effectively eliminating the possibility of truly populist or progressive legislation emerging from Congress. This has happened at the same time that the forces of money, media, and party have led the Democrats in both houses to view the filibuster excuse as highly desirable, rather than as an impediment.

Were the Democrats serious about eliminating the filibuster excuse, they would either take every step possible to get 60 senators into their caucus, or they would change the rule requiring 60 senators for cloture. Possible steps to reach that magic number of 60 would include appointing Republican senators from states with Democratic governors to key jobs in the Obama administration and immediately seating their replacements, and providing Washington, D.C., with a House member and two senators (this last approach changing the magic number to 61 and potentially providing the 60th and 61st Democrats). Simpler and more certain would be simply changing the rule, specifically Senate Rule 22, which reads in part:

"'Is it the sense of the Senate that the debate shall be brought to a close?' And if that question shall be decided in the affirmative by three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn -- except on a measure or motion to amend the Senate rules, in which case the necessary affirmative vote shall be two-thirds of the Senators present and voting -- then said measure, motion, or other matter pending before the Senate, or the unfinished business, shall be the unfinished business to the exclusion of all other business until disposed of."


This would seem to suggest that it takes 60 senators to block a filibuster and 66 senators (if 100 are present, otherwise fewer) to end the power of 60 senators to block filibusters. But that's not the whole story. William Greider recently explained:

"In 1975 the filibuster issue was revived by post-Watergate Democrats frustrated in their efforts to enact popular reform legislation like campaign finance laws. Senator James Allen of Alabama, the most conservative Democrat in the Senate and a skillful parliamentary player, blocked them with a series of filibusters. Liberals were fed up with his delaying tactics. Senator Walter Mondale pushed a campaign to reduce the threshold from sixty-seven votes to a simple majority of fifty-one. In a parliamentary sleight of hand, the liberals broke Allen's filibuster by a majority vote, thus evading the sixty-seven-vote rule. (Senate rules say you can't change the rules without a cloture vote, but the Constitution says the Senate sets its own rules. As a practical matter, that means the majority can prevail whenever it decides to force the issue.) In 1975 the presiding officer during the debate, Vice President Rockefeller, first ruled with the liberals on a motion to declare Senator Allen out of order. When Allen appealed the "ruling of the chair" to the full Senate, the majority voted him down. Nervous Senate leaders, aware they were losing the precedent, offered a compromise. Henceforth, the cloture rule would require only sixty votes to stop a filibuster."


The credibility of the filibuster excuse has collapsed, because the Democrats are now publicly admitting, through their actions, that they prefer to keep that excuse around.

Greider proposes reducing to 55 percent of the Senate the number of senators needed for cloture. I propose reducing it to 50 percent plus one. Either way, nobody is proposing that a minority be empowered to decide anything, only that a majority finally be permitted to (even to the extent allowed by an anti-democratic body like the U.S. Senate in which both Wyoming and California have the same number of senators). Should that happen, all I can say to Wall Street and the military industrial complex is: get ready to be shocked and awed!

The Democrats are choosing to keep the filibuster excuse around, meaning that our job is to overwhelm them and the media with our refusal to believe it. Or, if you prefer, our job is to lobby for a change in the filibuster rule. Otherwise, we can shout for peace and justice and stimulus and the right to organize, and it's all just shouting, because we are being played for suckers.


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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sigh. Simplism.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I weep for H. L. Mencken n/t
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. You're right. Is this because the right wing Democrats (DLC) have been in power too long?
I consider DLCers to be Republican Light.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. First, I want to thank and commend you for all the hard work you put into this
even though I disagree. I think throwing away the filibuster (while tempting) would be short-sighted.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. They wouldn't throw it away, just lower the threshold
Lower it from 60 votes to 55 votes. You are right that it can backfire in the future. However I think radical right wing ideology has been dismantled for a generation or more. So I don't see a risk of the radical right wing having a supermajority anytime soon. The GOP may get a majority again, but not a super majority unless they change their ideals.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. In recent times, when the Dems were in the minority, the R's kicked sand
in their faces pretty regularly, filibuster option or no.

Remember Lott, Frist & the Nuclear Option? Here's Wikipedia:

In U.S. politics, the nuclear option is an attempt by the presiding officer of the United States Senate to end a filibuster by majority vote, as opposed to 60 senators voting to end a filibuster. Although it is not provided for in the formal rules of the Senate, the procedure is the subject of a 1957 parliamentary opinion and has been used on several occasions since. The term was coined by Senator Trent Lott (Republican of Mississippi) in 2005.<1>

The maneuver was brought to prominence in 2005 when then-Majority Leader Bill Frist (Republican of Tennessee) threatened its use to end Democratic-led filibusters of judicial nominees submitted by President George W. Bush. In response to this threat, Democrats threatened to shut down the Senate and prevent consideration of all routine and legislative Senate business. The ultimate confrontation was prevented by the Gang of 14, a group of seven Democratic and seven Republican Senators, all of whom agreed to oppose the nuclear option and oppose filibusters of judicial nominees, except in extraordinary circumstances.



And thanks for the very comprehensive analysis.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. That's what people said after 64 and after 76
The reich wing is not going away.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. i appreciate your position
and sympathize with your inability to offer a single reason for it
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. so the dems have a magic bullet and they refuse to use it?
they have a way to get everything they want but there is a conspiracy to keep it hidden? Seems implausible to me.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The repubs talked about doing it. Dems said they would never consider such a thing.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. hands over eyes - check
plugs in ears - check
humming - check
everything's going to be ok
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OmahaBlueDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. This always sounds like a great idea until the other party is in power, and...
...it's time to make a Supreme Court nomination.

If we can amend the Constitution to state that 3/5 of the Senate has to approve a nomination to the Federal Bench, or we can amend the Constitution to put a 20 year term limit on Supreme Court service, than I would embrace getting rid of the filibuster.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. The filibuster has never stopped a BAD Supreme Court nominee.
And we could have blocked Alito AND the other Reagan/BushBush nightmares if only ONE of our supposedly Democratic senators had put holds on their noms. Why did we never EVER do that?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Because the deal had been made not to filibuster nominees.
See my post on the nuclear option above.
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OmahaBlueDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. Thanks for a very good explanation of the "nuclear option"
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. while i support such changes of course
i don't think getting rid of the filibuster should wait for them -- in fact it might be needed in order to get them
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. The filibuster should be done away with. It's not democratic taking away
the power of the majority and catering to the minority in this country, which are corporations and million- and billionaires.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. You say that now. nt
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. No filibuster has ever served any progressive purpose
Edited on Sat Feb-07-09 11:13 PM by Ken Burch
No filibuster ever stopped an antilabor bill.

No filibuster ever defended people of color, or LGBT people, or any religious minority.

No filibuster ever defended women on choice.

No filibuster ever STOPPED an immoral war.

No filibuster ever protected the environment.

Therefore, the filibuster can never serve the people in the future.

The OP is right.

Get rid of the filibuster and we can FINALLY move towards democracy.

No down side.
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PFunk Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. How about just raising the bar back to 70 (where it once was) or even 80.
And make them actually act on it-not just pronounce it. In short don't get rid if the filibuster. Just make it incredibly hard to start/keep one up.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. this is what i would like to see...
make it mean something...make it WORK to filibuster something...don't just let them say, "Nah, we're not gonna let you vote on it. See you tomorrow!"

sP
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Exactly.
The old-fashioned filibuster, where they had to tie up the floor with speeches, made obstruction look like obstruction. You could do it, but it was horrible PR. Why the fuck did we ever let it become "it just takes 60 to pass anything now"?? Jesus fuck, what is wrong with congressional democrats?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. How would raising the bar to shut off filibuster help this cause?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. Recommend. What difference does it make if we do away with it? The Democrats could
have used it against Bush 100 times but they didn't. And they never will again as long as they are beholden to the corporatocracy and not their constituents.

Thanks for the post, David.

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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. The fact that the filibuster is ostensibly used by Republican obscures the
fact that it is also used by Senators from low population states to dominate the Senate. Western and Southern Senators use the filibuster to hold up programs vital to California and the north east.
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byeya Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Wy: 600,000; CA: 20,000,000. The poster is correct; small states
are not only disproportionally represented in the Senate, they are allowed to dictate what gets voted on. Democracy? What did you say when you stopped laughing?
At the very least, make the republiKKKans really filibuster like the Dixiecrats were forced to. What should happen is to lower the threashhold to 54.
And don't forget full statehood for the District of Columbia.
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Demoiselle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. I agree with hedgehog and byeya..and David Swanson...
The Senate itself is an essentially anti-democratic institution, set up to block a runaway majority in the government, and, especially, to protect parts of the country with small populations. I can see a use for it, although we have moved a long distance away from the world of our founding fathers. But the fact that this "Upper House," with its inherent imbalance, is rendered even more imbalanced by the fillibuster protections infuriates me. I don't CARE who is in the majority and who is in the minority in the Senate, that should not be our concern. Our concern should be that the will of a substantial majority in this country is being thwarted. Sometimes the best way for people to learn what works and what doesn't is to give them what they THINK they want. The sooner they get it, the sooner they'll figure out just how bad it can be. Sure, it's a risk that the people will make the wrong choices too often and take too long to learn their mistakes. But I think it's a risk that is built into Democracy, and we abuse it at our peril.
(Thank you, I'll get off my soap box now.)
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
20. The problem isn't that we have debate - because we don't.
The problem is Republicans don't debate. They're handed their position on any given issue by their corporate masters, and will talk that position to death - without compromise, without any acknowledgment of facts, without any concessions.

They don't want debate. Take it away from them.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. I would say save the filibuster except democrats don't use it but
Edited on Sun Feb-08-09 08:06 AM by mmonk
instead create "gangs of insert number bipartisans" to make sure republican bills pass when dems are in the minority.
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
26. Well, I think it would help if Democrats simply forced the Republicans to actually filibuster
instead of capitulating every times the Republicans threatened to use the filibuster. Make them actually carry through the threat! And let the whole nation see who is obstructing what needs to be done!
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byeya Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. You got that right. The nation may well tire of seeing hour
after hour of republiKKKan talkfests holding up legislation that ordinary Americans are counting on. Perhaps some repubs from the north and northeast will see that their reelections are at stake and not take part.
You never know until you try. Giving the republiKKKans a free pass sure isn't working.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
28. Agree on much of what you are saying, particularly . . . .
that the Senate is the power of the Elite and intended to slow everything down --

if not totally stop legislation.

Didn't have time to read your post entirely -- back later -- but I do agree with others

that the Majority Leader should be making the GOP filibuster. How would the GOP begin to

talk about not funding libraries and school lunches when they have bankrupted the Treasury

in order to enrich private defense contractors and for OIL?

If we have this option now, then make the GOP actually do it.


Also, I like a lot of talk in Congress --- unfortunately, right now there are a lot of things

that need to be straightened out quickly and too few people are able to watch the Senate now

with Comcast having pulled it out of basic for their perverted interests.


However, anywhere that we get a chance to hear argument/debate, I think we're ahead.

The GOP started to move some of this talk off the floor -- if my impression is correct.

We have to fight that. In fact, it is one of the ways where Democratic Senators/House Members

will work to get some real information out. Also keep in mind that many of the rules in

Congress have changed. A while back, one side used to be able to make all their arguments

with no back and forth between the parties. This worked very badly for the GOP because by

the time the Democrats had laid out their case for or against, there would be overwhelming

support for their position. The rules were changed to be fairer to the Republicans!


We also have to think of minority interests --- at times they can be very important!

Needless to say, Democrats haven't used this option because under threat from the GOP they

didn't!!

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Pryderi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
29. No. The Repugs wanted to exercise, "The Nuclear Option" a couple of years ago.
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scytherius Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
30. I don't agree
Aside from the fact that I think our entire system needs to be replaced with one that is actually representative, with the one we have you don't want the majority to always do what they want . . . even if it is your majority.

Now a new Majority Leader would sure as hell be nice.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
31. DO IT! NEUTRALIZE THE USELESS SENATE
Edited on Sun Feb-08-09 12:32 PM by librechik
Why on earth do we need these Good Ol Boy Clowns in our democratic system. The House is enough in this day and age.

All they do is obstruct. And we don't need that with the bees dying off. It's a goddamn slow motion apocalypse. We have to act now!
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
32. Eliminate Filibuster - you have got to be kidding me! HELL NO
You think Democrats are always going to be in control of Congress. Hell it took us 14 years after the 1994 Republican influx with the Contract On America rule for us to finally get control back.

You take away filibuster you take away the ability to prevent activist judges of being placed on the bench. And although the democrats were not perfect these past 14 years they kept some heinous judges from every serving oh and that thing called the Arctic Refuge - saved because of the filibuster.

Sure, it's pissing all of us off now but you eliminate it and we'll kick ourselves in the butt if in 15 years (give or take but hopefully never) the republicans manage to take back control.

Only someone with little political insight would think so short-sighted to eliminate the only way the minority can have any voice in DC. I love that democrats have control but I know that this is never a permanent thing.


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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. No Democratic Senate Minority has ever used the filibuster
The filibuster has never led to a single positive result for anything progressive.

And if it hasn't that's proof in itself that it can't in the future.

All the filibuster ever did was keep Taft-Hartley in place and keep Jim Crow in place. It can never help the powerless.

Especially since the years 2000 to 2006 have proven that no Democratic minority in the Senate will ever be a fighting minority.

Might as well face it, Lynne, the filibuster only helps the forces of evil.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. That's a problem with the democratic party, not the filibuster.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Well, since it's the Democratic party, in a future minority status,that would
be, in theory, USING(or, more likely, never using)the filibuster, it's still the definitive argument against it.

If our minorities were gutless in the past, they'll always have to be gutless in the future. Therefore, the filibuster can never be something progressives can defend.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
33. K & R
Thanks for your hard work and research into the subject.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. K&R! nt
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
37. i loved your point about the Senate being an anti-democratic institution...

i've never thought of the Senate in these terms, but... i swear, you're right!

(are you sure that the Senate is not mentioned in the Constitution though???)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. there it is
"As a practical matter, that means the majority can prevail whenever it decides to force the issue."
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-09 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
40. The Senate should simply be eliminated by Constitutional Amendment.
Could not disagree more.

The Senate was set up to allow the smaller populated states to also be able to weild power at the legislative level.

I come from Illinois and before that California.

I have no problem with giving some power to states like Wyoming, Arkansas, Delaware and South Dakota.

Decisions made in DC affect them as well.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
43. No.
I like that the filibuster excuse exists. It allows the public to look and see that congressional democrats are cowards. This deserves to be known as long as it is true.
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