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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:37 PM
Original message
Time to Scrap the Stimulus and Start Over
http://d-day.blogspot.com/2009/02/lowdown.html

<<snip>>

Here's a list of what the Axis of Nelson-Collins cut out of the bill to make room for more tax cuts.

$40 billion State Fiscal Stabilization
$16 billion School Construction
$1.25 billion project based rental
$2.25 Neighborhood Stabilization (Eliminate)
$1.2 billion in Retrofiting Project 8 Housing
$7.5 billion of State Incentive Grants
$3.5 billion Higher Ed Construction (Eliminated)
$ 100 million FSA modernization
$50 million CSERES Research
$65 million Watershed Rehab
$30 million SD Salaries
$100 million Distance Learning
$98 million School Nutrition
$50 million aquaculture
$2 billion broadband
$1 billion Head Start/Early Start
$5.8 billion Health Prevention Activity.
$2 billion HIT Grants
$1 billion Energy Loan Guarantees
$4.5 billion GSA
$3.5 billion Federal Bldgs Greening

The $40 billion for state aid is astounding. You're not going to see an economic recovery if the states are having to cut budgets at the same time the feds expand them. They'll cancel each other out.


What you don't see in there are the three big tax cuts that the Senate put in this bill that has crowded out this spending, not for reasons of effectiveness, but purely because squishy moderates couldn't live with a $900 billion dollar bill. They are:

1) $70 billion dollars for a patch so that the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) doesn't affect high-middle-income earners making under $1 million dollars a year. This is passed annually because Congress is too cowardly to rewrite the tax code. But it doesn't belong in a stimulus bill, as no less than House Minority Whip JON KYL just said in a floor speech. People making $400,000 a year aren't likely to spend money they get to keep as a result of fixing the AMT.

2) At least $35 billion dollars for a $15,000 home buyer's tax credit, which will only go to people who have enough money to buy a house. This is a craven attempt to reinflate the housing bubble before prices have settled, and because there's so much inventory on the market it will not spur hardly any new home construction.

3) Around $11 billion for a tax credit for car buyers, which will only go to people who have enough money to buy a new car. This is not tied to greening the US fleet and will be implemented before fuel economy standards have changed over, so it doesn't even reward fuel efficiency or reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

These are tax breaks for suburbanites, which in all likelihood won't get spent at anywhere near the rates that they would in the hands of the poor or middle class. And they won't create jobs, either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://uspoverty.change.org/blog/view/should_we_scrap_the_stimulus_and_start_fresh

<<snip>>

Trying to return to the status quo, which right now is an economic inequality that rivals that leading up to the Great Depression, is never advisable. And the current stimulus package - long on tax cuts and short on stimulus - will do exactly that.

<<snip>>

Consider this: Our economy is 5M jobs in the hole; we lack at least 5M units of affordable housing in the U.S.; almost 14M people owe more on their mortgages than their houses are worth; and we've lost $2T from our retirement accounts in one year.

In CT, where my mom lives, state mental health hospitals are being closed and patients are being moved and people are facing layoffs; in CA, one of the largest and oldest work programs for low-income young adults is likely to be eliminated. Yet, the current Senate bill removes $40b in aid to states. Unemployment benefits would only be increased $25 per week, or $3/day. Almost half of all Americans out of work are not even receiving unemployment benefits.


<<snip>>

So there's goes the money for additional housing vouchers, money for local anti-foreclosure efforts, community development projects (repairing blighted properties, fostering small business development, affordable homeownership sales, etc.), and upgrading older, energy inefficient properties to cut residents' utility costs. Keep in mind that the majority of low-income individuals who benefit from community development interventions and housing subsidies are single moms with kids, the elderly and the disabled. Christy Hardin Smith's got the dirt on how hard children are being hit by the current crisis and this proposal.

<<snip>>

All I know is that our government is subjecting us to ideological debates when they should be figuring out how to relieve the crushing burden of debt individual households and entire communities bear. This means throwing out foolish proposals for tax credits for more homeownership when we still need prices to fall further. This means pursuing bankruptcy reform now. This means keeping workers - including government employees - in their jobs if they still have them and providing emergency relief to their neighbors and loved ones who are already out of work. This means providing aid to states so they can continue to provide healthcare, food and shelter - directly and through their non-profit partners - to Americans struggling nationwide. And it means figuring out how to best design and allocate funds for job creation, so we can slowly move people back into the workforce and get some much needed modernization in education, healthcare and infrastructure that this country desperately needs.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. agreed - we need the house version and the hell with these repubs n/t
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Yes, and...
who won the election? Well they better start acting like it!!
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. You know Obama will sign this piece of crap when it hits his desk...
...rather than vetoing it and going thru the process again - no matter how f*cked up it is by the time the pigshits are done with it.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think you need to review, piece by piece, what's in the bill before labeling it.
You can do this at Coalition for Human Needs (http://chn.org)
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. you're assuming I haven't? LINK
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Then looking at the multibillions targeted to low and middle income families and calling it trash
is just stupid.

It's not everything I want, but it is many many things we need.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. "low and middle income"
but not the dirt poor and homeless. Just look what was taken out for housing!!
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. and aid to states too. n/t
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Yes, exactly!! n/t
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. aid to states is not taken out.
It was lowered, but not gone.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. If you take ALL state aid...
taken out it is about $80 billion. Lowered quite a bit!!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. That's not true at all.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. 8 BILLION dollars for housing.
Is it enough? No, neither was the House Bill. It's a beginning. Eight Billion dollars is a huge money investment into housing the size of which we've not seen in recent times. It's nothing to sneeze at.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. $13,510,000,000 would be much better!! n/t
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. 25 Billion would be even better than that!!
:o
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Sure it would...
but that isn't what was in the House bill, and would still be in if the Senate didn't cut $5 billion from it.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. Of course...
he's the one who started all this bipartisan crap!!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yesterday, I was wanting Obama to threaten to veto any compromise. Today....
I'm starting to think more about the economy and the real families affected.... it may be silly to tank 800 billion of help to the economy because 100billion was left out.

I don't know I'm torn. The "compromise" basically tears out the things that would most stimulate the economy while at the same time providing the most long term assistance to people who really need it. The bill as it stands is significantly weaker than what the house passed. I'm just not sure if I think its still great enough to pass or if I'm with you and think that he should be scrapped.

I'm pretty fearful that scrapping the bill would be the first act in truly throwing our economy into a tailspin. It might be better to pick up what didn't make it into this bill into a new spending bill.

I really don't know.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Yeah, those of us who are homeless because there isn't enough housing as it is...
Just forget about us, because you muddleclass people are soooo much more important.

Just give us the exit pills, OK?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I don't have a home either - living with friend.
My plight isn't as bad as someone who's on the street for sure but - I had to give up my apartment in favor of a friend who would, because he's a friend, go sliding scale rent for me.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Then I would think you'd have more sensitivity to those who are left uot.
Or maybe it hasn't hit you hard enough yet.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. It's hit me as hard as anyone else. I just don't agree with you.
No need to start a dick-waving "who's been hurt worse by the economy" contest. We simply have different ideas about what needs to be done.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
55. Real nice...
and very sensitive.:sarcasm: :sarcasm:
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I'm in the same boat - I've more than earned the right to be frank.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. There is a difference...
between being frank and being rude.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
74. "dick-waving " Your choice of language says it all about who you are.
Given that you want to "wave your dick", I'm sure you want the last word in power.

Have at it. People can see from your attitude what you're about.

Good bye.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. If that worked...
it would be nice, but I don't see them picking this up at a later time. Its now or never, and, to me, this is one time where NOTHING is better than the piece of crap it has turned out to be. By scrapping it, it would force them to come up with a real stimulus, not the same old, same old.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. They will be plenty of spending bills.
Not "stimulus" bills, but Omnibus bills.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. We need it now!! n/t
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. We're GETTING it now.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. Yeah, we're getting it alright n/t
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. You can't have it both ways - so which is it:
Do you want it now, or to you want a different bill?

Pick one.

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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. I want it done right...
I want the Bill the House passed, which is the original.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. And... how does "scrapping and starting over" connect with "we need it now!"
:shrug:
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Once this bill passes...
you are only kidding yourself if you thing that they will come back to the things that are cut and left out. That's why scrapping it is better, make them put a COMPLETE bill on Obama's desk.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Then clearly we don't "need it now!!"
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. When you flip-flop...
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 09:37 PM by dajoki
you really go head first, don't you? I remind you of the post you made earlier, you really don't know, do you? Did you see the light or something since yesterday?

3. Yesterday, I was wanting Obama to threaten to veto any compromise. Today....

I'm starting to think more about the economy and the real families affected.... it may be silly to tank 800 billion of help to the economy because 100billion was left out.

I don't know I'm torn. The "compromise" basically tears out the things that would most stimulate the economy while at the same time providing the most long term assistance to people who really need it. The bill as it stands is significantly weaker than what the house passed. I'm just not sure if I think its still great enough to pass or if I'm with you and think that he should be scrapped.

I'm pretty fearful that scrapping the bill would be the first act in truly throwing our economy into a tailspin. It might be better to pick up what didn't make it into this bill into a new spending bill.

I really don't know.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. I'm not flip-flopping, I'm QUOTING you
That would be why "need it now" is in quotes.

You're the one saying

"we need it now!"

and

"scrap the bill"

By your logic, if we've got time to scrap the bill and start this entire process over (which has already taken a month) then CLEARLY by that logic, we don't "need it now."
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. We need it done right...
the first time. The Dems do not have to negotiate this, it went through the House without any repub support, the Senate already wasted time on this compromise.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. And yes you are flip-floping...
just read your earlier post, you said that!!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. 5th recommend
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. too late
The bill just passed the Senate. Now it goes into conference, then before the House and then back to the Senate.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. A little late now.
Let's hope some of that stuff goes back in when it goes to the conference committee. I imagine the House is unhappy with those cuts too, and well, the House and Senate are going to have to reconcile the differences.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. "House and Senate are going to have to reconcile the differences"
And what if they don't or can't? I still say scrap it!!
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. YOU DO REALIZE THAT THEY CAN JUST PUT THAT IN ANOTHER BILL RIGHT?
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. But they won't!! n/t
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4lbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
54. They won't? Isn't there a $3 trillion federal budget coming in the next few months?
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 09:10 PM by 4lbs
Think the billions removed will make an appearance there? I certainly do.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I hope you're right...
but I'll believe it when I see it.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. "you know who" has been saying this now for 7 weeks, in his columns and blogs
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
63. Don't say it. It draws the wrong crowd. n/t
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. Just pass this one and start working on a supplement.
It's going to take months for this bill to show any effect if it has any at all. Unemployment will continue to rise and that will strengthen the Dem's hand. The Dem's need to just ram a supplemental bill through the house without any GOP input and then make the Republicans in the senate filibuster until they die.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. That is what...
they should have done the first time, let them make fools out of themselves.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. What they should be doing is sending a dozen bills and make the GOP
filibuster them one by one until they are so worn out they can't.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. you should have listened to President Obama last night....
your suggestion will not happen
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Oh, I know it won't...
but I can still complain!!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. school funding and health care need their own debate
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 12:59 PM by bigtree
It's too bad they didn't get these priorities wrapped up in this super-charged vehicle, but Pres. Obama promised to put together new packages for them. That's not necessarily going to be as difficult as it sounds if Democrats find the right one to force these changes through. It couldn't be done on this one (politically). So be it. On to the next arena.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
64. I hope so. We're looking at a 6.8% cut to funding for FY 2010.
That's about 36 jobs in my little district. Wage freezes and furloughs on top of that.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #64
71. That's why it was important...
to put it in THIS bill.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. God forbid that we do anything to actually help the people on the bottom.
The people that would actually put that money to work in the economy.

Is this better than nothing? I don't know. This bill will cause the stock market to tank some more, so those that have something left in their 101(k) will lose more. We're still allowing ourselves to be held hostage by the banking, insurance, and financial industries, so they are still free to hoover up any monetary gains that it will generate. Cutting more from the states will ensure that they are still screwed.

And where are the idiots that keep sending these criminals back to DC? Are they just so fucking stupid that they can't see how they're being screwed? Do they not get that they are responsible for this?


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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. If you read the bill, there's important aid to people hitting bottom - its just not glamorous.
17 BILLION dollars for hunger programs
8 BILLION dollars for housing
86 BILLION for medicaid
3.5 BILLION for early childhood programs

That's not nothing.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Well, I said I don't know and we still have yet to see what makes it out of
the conference committee.

One thing I am sure of is that this is nothing but a down payment on what's needed, but hopefully it will accomplish enough to make the next few possible.
:shrug:


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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. We agree there.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. No Medicaid for unemployed...
http://www.propublica.org/special/the-stimulus-bills-house-vs.-senate
Figures show how much less in the Senate Bill vs. the House bill.

17 BILLION dollars for hunger programs ▼$4,076,000,000 Less than House Bill

8 BILLION dollars for housing ▼$4,910,000,000 Less than House Bill

86 BILLION for medicaid ▼$300,000,000 Less than House Bill

00 Medicaid for unemployed ▼$8,600,000,000 Less than House Bill

3.5 BILLION for early childhood programs ▼$1,150,000,000 Less than House Bill
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Yes, dear "we need it now!!" That's what happens when you need something now.
It's not perfect, but it is billions and billions more than zero.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. But the House had...
$8,600,000,000 for Medicaid for the unemployed and the Senate took it out.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
70. One question...
Just pretend that you could have whatever you want. Which Bill would you prefer, the House's or the Senate's? Your answer will tell me all I need to know.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
75. How many deaths in that "not perfect"?
That just doesn't seem to matter to you, does it?

As long as there are the billions in tax cuts to the rich, you're satisfied.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
37. the repukes have zero interest in helping Americans
and are fully dedicated to making sure that stimulus fails.

success of the jobs and economic recovery package will mean the end of the repuke party.

that would mean the DLS would have to carry ALL the corporate water.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
52. inevitable
What is described here must happen, will happen, sooner or later. Right now, people are still in denial, and they will defend the current plan out of loyalty to the new administration and see anyone telling the truth about this as disloyal, or as having an agenda or being the enemy.

Things probably need to get worse and play out a little bit more before people are prepared to face the truth.

The longer we postpone facing the truth and doing what must and will eventually be done, the more suffering there will be in the meantime.
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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
57. They should set aside the AMT fix, which will almost
certainly get passed separately since they've done it every year as a matter of course. That frees up $70 billion to put back much of the most important provisions they cut. The most important in my mind was the aid to states.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Yes, some common sense...
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 09:41 PM by dajoki
that money could go a long way in funding for state programs and Housing.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
62. So much for change
:(
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
65. Summary
Wall St. got most all that it wanted with, in fact, promises that more will come.

People got a few bones with no assurances that more will be headin' to the hood.

Is this the 'personal responsibility' thingie?

What a bad joke this has become.

K&R
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
72. K & R
Great synopsis, Dajoki, as we can't depend on this to bill to save those people most in need and will create more needy, we have to be ready to help each other more and more, open doors, open hearts...open minds to what the reality is about to become...
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
73. House, Senate, both bills are grossly inadequate.

This fear of socialism is bullshit. Instead of the grab bag of giveaways to business, resulting in maybe 2-3 million jobs the government need create 20 million jobs itself. That would provide relief for all able to work and would revitalize the economy as everybody had money to spend. Needless to say, those who are unable to work receive the aid they need to live as human beings in a civilized society. Fuck the banks, nationalize them, same with the energy sector. Cut the Pentagon budget by 90%, now your talkin' bout real money. Oh yeah, health care, Medicare for all, take the insurance vampires out of the picture, the national savings will be enormous.

See, pretty much fixed.

It's socialism or barbarism, guess what we got now.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Nice simple fix, too bad simple seems beyond the ken...
of many. When it makes too much sense people can't seem to allow it. Has to be convoluted and inscrutable to go over...go figure...
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