Fla. doctor investigated for badly botched abortion

[galaxy21]

Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Fla. authorities consider taking doc's license for botched abortion after woman says the baby was born live.
(AP Photo )Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.

...

Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.

"It really disturbed me," said Joanne Sterner, president of the Broward County chapter of the National Organization for Women, after reviewing the administrative complaint against Renelique. "I know that there are clinics out there like this. And I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics."

According to state records, Renelique received his medical training at the State University of Haiti. In 1991, he completed a four-year residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Interfaith Medical Center in New York.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=6813187


If this is true it is impossible to have anything close to sympathy for anyone involved. There are guidelines for abortion doctors in what to do in the event of a livebirth, so why they didn't pay attention to them, I'll never know. It's horror stories like this that make a lot easier for anti choice people to villify abortion doctors.

[Christa]

1. 23 weeks!!

Who goes for an abortion at 23 weeks? Why didn't she go much earlier?

[rox63]

3. I've known babies born at 24 and 25 weeks who are growing up healthy and sound

:grr:

I'm pro-choice, and this makes me sick.

[Renew Deal]

30. 24 weeks is one of the major milestones

A baby is more likely to grow up healthy at 24 weeks than 20 weeks. This is crazy.

[galaxy21]

32. 20-24 weeks is a major gray area

I think 23 weeks is the earliest a fetus can be born and not need extensive medical treatment. They've kept alive ones born at 21 weeks before, but they needed a serious amount of medical attention, which isn't really viability.

[galaxy21]

4. Yeah, I thought that was weird too

I think viability is around 24 weeks, but realistically, there aren't that many women that will abort a healthy fetus after 20 weeks. It's very rare for that to happen.

Possibly her circurmstances changed. I don't think she would intentionally wait that long.

[surrealAmerican]

25. Who said it was a healthy fetus?

The article doesn't say much. There are all kinds of reasons this person might have chosen to have the abortion. She may have, not until shortly before that, found out about a severe birth defect. Then again, it may just have taken her that long to scrape together enough money.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. I have a 30 year old niece that was born at 24 weeks.

I have a 16 year old niece that was born at 21 weeks (iirc).

[ezgoingrl]

46. My nephew was born at 23 weeks.

He weighed a pound and eight ounces. He'll be five in about 2 weeks.

[BlueCaliDem]

2. Oh jeez. The anti-choice crowd are going to use this

in all their propaganda just you wait and see.

[galaxy21]

5. It deserves to be used against us

This is just absolutely appalling.

The law everywhere is, if it's born alive, you give it medical treatment. I think sometimes the doctor can decide if it doesn't have long, not to prolong it's suffering, and let nature take it's course. But even then, you can't actually hasten the end of its life.

How everyone involved could forget that a) the child is entitled to medical treatment and b) you can't hasten the end of its life under any circumstances is shocking to me.

[Bunny]

6. No it does not deserve to be used against "us". Why should it be?

The doctor and/or his surrogate(s) did not follow established protocols for live births. The blame is on them, not those who are pro-choice.

[galaxy21]

7. I disagreed with the poster's use of the word 'propaganda'

It's not propaganda if it actually happened.

Realistically, if someone who was anti choice wanted to use that story to convert someone, it would be within their rights to do that, since it happened and there wouldn't be any lies in it.

[BlueCaliDem]

61. Here's the definition of the word

Propaganda: NOUN

#1 The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

#2 Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause.

They don't give a flick about the baby, or woman, or the fact the doctor was an incompetent, murdering idiot. Those details don't interest them. They only care to cherry-pick then blow up that part that benefits their propaganda of anti-choice and women's rights.

How again is my use of the word objectionable to you?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Shouldn't Have Been Aborted At All. n/t

[BlueCaliDem]

62. Exactly. And the doctor is to blame here. n/t

[sarge43]

13. What's this 'us', Kemosabe?

Anyone here saying this was ok, no BFD?

[galaxy21]

17. Read my other response

It doesn't deserve to be used against the enitre pro choice movement or to be seen as representivie of everyone and I didn't mean to covey that.

However, if a pro life group decides to use it as an arguement against abortion, then they should be allowed to that. I object to pro life groups lying to further their cause, which they often do ,but if we're talking about facts, then it's well within their rights to make a big deal of this story.

[LostinVA]

28. There is no "us" to use anything against -- what a strange remark

I didn't know the doctor was President of NOW or somesuch.

[galaxy21]

29. Read my other responses

I dind't mean to say it should be seen as representitive of the entire pro choice movement.

However, I was merely disagreeing with the original poster that it would be wrong for the anti choice movement to use this story. If it happened, and they want to use it to convert people, its their right to do that.

[BlueCaliDem]

63. And that, my dear, is the essence of propaganda.

"However, I was merely disagreeing with the original poster that it would be wrong for the anti choice movement to use this story. If it happened, and they want to use it to convert people, its their right to do that."

Never wrote they didn't have that right. Go back and read my post. I WROTE this is what the anti-choice crowd will use in their propaganda and here you support my argument, defeating your own.

[Hello_Kitty]

55. WTF? Well then every miserable childhood should be used against the anti-choicers

[galaxy21]

59. under certain curcumstances, I agree

And anytime a woman dies because of illegal abortion, because she didn't have access to a proper legal one, that should be used against them too.

[BlueCaliDem]

60. I SAID it will be used by the ANTI-CHOICE crowd as propaganda

and it's already being done.

Yes, it's appalling, but if you think they give a shiite about the child rather than the practice that fits perfectly in their anti-choice propaganda, then you're only fooling yourself.

This is about the tragic events headed by an idiot, incompetent doctor, not about abortion and a woman's right to choose.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. They already are

I read it on a couple right wing blogs last week. Figured they had to be exaggerating since they never post links.

So I was hoping it was BS.

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. It's inexcusable. It should not happen.

I should hope we all agree that killing a child which is born live is not abortion.

[BlueCaliDem]

64. Absolutely agree, but that won't stop the anti-choice fundementalists

from using it as just another prop against women's rights without caring about the details that led up to that botched abortion. It's a sick situation. It was flat-out murder, but that's not how the anti-choice loons are going to sell it.

They're going to use it to bolster their position to overturn ALL women's rights and to "educate" the low-informed to be anti-choice. For all we know, that doctor is anti-choice as well. I mean, don't anti-choice people bomb clinics containing pregnant women to make their point? How can the doctor and nurses there not know the child was born alive?

It all seems so suspect.

[Blue_Tires]

50. they are wayyyyyyy ahead of you

but the proper focus should be that this hatchet artist was allowed to practice and the woman didn't look into the background of this 'doctor' or his establishment...

[Fleshdancer]

8. disgusting

23 weeks is a long time to be pregnant before deciding you're not ready to be a parent. The responsible thing to do would be to carry the fetus to full term and give it up for adoption. Then again, perhaps if her abortion didn't cost $1200, then maybe she would have had it sooner.

This clinic needs to shut down and the doctor needs to lose his license. The statement from Joanne Sterner bothers me: "I know that there are clinics out there like this and I hope that we can keep (women) from going to these types of clinics." How and why would these clinics exist? Are abortion laws in FL so ridiculous that women have nowhere to go other than shady places like this or do the women not know the difference?

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. So many questions

For starters why did this girl wait that long for an abortion?

I am adamantly pro choice but find this story (if really true) repulsive.

[galaxy21]

11. It's usually either money or they find out too late

There aren't that many women that need months to make up their mind.

[T Wolf]

12. If this particular MEDICAL procedure was not virtually outlawed as it has been, there

would be enough quality medical facilities and personnel to provide safe medical services without having to subject patients to sub-standard care.

The fault for this lies solely with the anti-choice wackos who have made obtaining an abortion so difficult.

Do not blame the patient.

[galaxy21]

14. "The fault for this lies solely with the anti-choice wackos"

I understand what your saying, but the responsibility lies with staff who decided to do it.

I agree with not blaming the woman, since she was likely sedated and possibly didn't know what was going on. If she had been awake and fully alert, she almost certainly would not have let them do it.

[Fleshdancer]

16. while I agree with your main point, I do think the patient bears responsibility too

I think $1200 is too much for an abortion and it scares me that clinics like this exist, but no one forced this woman to abort at 23 weeks. At that point, the responsible thing to do would be to carry the fetus to full term and give it up for adoption.

[galaxy21]

18. She has a moral responsibility but not a legal one

Should she feel guilty about this? Probably. And I would if I were her. But she shouldn't be put in prison, because it sounds like she didn't have anything to do with what the doctors did. Like I said, she was probably out of it.

[Fleshdancer]

26. Yes, this is what I meant

I was strictly speaking from a moral perspective. I should have made that clear in my response.

[ezgoingrl]

53. She was busy bleeding out since

no one clamped the cord. I'm sure she wasn't in her right mind because of that let alone the trauma of delivering an alive baby in an abortion clinic.

[Bunny]

19. The thing is, we don't know why she chose to abort at 23 weeks.

So you really can't say what the "responsible" thing to do would actually be. Perhaps she discovered that something was wrong with the fetus, perhaps there were medical issues involving her body that made carrying to term too difficult, etc. We simply aren't in a position to determine what she should have done.

Abortion at 23 weeks is still legal, albeit with some restrictions. She did nothing wrong.

[slackmaster]

21. Right, and a vacuum of information provides fertile ground for people projecting their assumptions

Prejudices, etc.

[galaxy21]

24. The article actually goes into a lot of detail for her motivations

If you would read it.

[slackmaster]

33. The story grosses me out to the point where I'm not going to burden myself with it

:argh:

[galaxy21]

23. As far as moral responsibilty goes

If you read the story she said she decided she wasn't ready to be a parent. There were no medical issues there.

I've made it clear I don't think she should face any legal actions for this. As far as whether I judge her on a moral level... I personally can't justify an abortion on a healthy fetus after 20 weeks. I'm not saying I think it should be illegal, but it's just not something I agree with.

[Fleshdancer]

31. no, the article said she wasn't ready to be a parent

if it was a matter of her safety of if there was something wrong with the fetus, I wouldn't judge her decision.

My post wasn't very clear in hindsight. I don't think legal actions should be taken against her, but I don't think it was the responsible choice to make.

[LeftinOH]

15. This doesn't seem like the "safe & legal" kind of termination for which there are clear guidelines

23 weeks? No medical license? $1,200.00? (how much does the prodecure cost, anyway?)

[rox63]

20. If an attempted abortion results in a live birth, you get the preemie baby to the hospital ASAP

Adoption/custody can be figured out later.

[slackmaster]

22. That is actually required by law in California and several other states

I don't know about Florida.

[tandot]

27. I am almost 23 weeks pregnant and this is just horrible.

Why the hell did she wait that long???

Because of my age and the risk for serious birth defects, I had an amniocentesis done in my 17th week. The thought that we might have to consider terminating the pregnancy at 18 weeks was incredibly tough on my husband and me. Thankfully, everything turned out to be alright with our baby.

It is unimaginable for me how any woman would even consider having an abortion that late for any other reason than something being seriously wrong with the fetus or her health/live being at risk if she continues the pregnancy. I can feel our baby moving, have seen him moving around on the ultrasound, and heard his little heart beat.

We need better comprehensive sex ed in schools so young people know how to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

[Fleshdancer]

34. If I had to guess, perhaps it took her that long to save up the $1200 she was charged

That's just a guess though. I have no idea why she waited.

[galaxy21]

35. Sometimes a woman's circumstances can change

You can be with the father in the first trimester, then he leaves, and you don't want to raise the child by yourself.

I think ideally a woman should make a decision in the first trimester and (barring a medical problem) stick with it. That doesn't always happen though.

[Fleshdancer]

36. good point

and sometimes the fear and/or denial is so strong, it takes a long time to get to a place where you're ready to make a decision. This is what happened to a good friend of mine. She became pregnant when she was 19 and was so overwhelmed with her situation that she missed her window of opportunity to have an abortion.

[mentalsolstice]

38. However, would a 1st trimester abortion cost $1200?

As the pregnancy progresses, accepted procedures change, and I would imagine get more expensive. I'm saddened for the girl and the baby.

[Fleshdancer]

39. good question

According to planned parenthood:

Nationwide, the cost at health centers ranges from about $350 to $900 for abortion in the first trimester. The cost is usually more for a second-trimester abortion. Costs vary depending on how long you've been pregnant and where you go. Hospitals generally cost more.

I couldn't find information on rates for abortions past the first trimester.

[blogslut]

41. Yes

The price goes up after the first trimester. Responsible abortion providers go to great pains to discourage procedures after the first trimester.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. What A Horrible Story. Shame On The Woman For Aborting At 23 Weeks, And The Person Who Threw It Out

should be charged with murder.

[Cerridwen]

40. Can someone interpret this line from the article for me, please.

New York records show that Renelique has made at least five medical malpractice payments in the past decade, the circumstances of which were not detailed in the filings.

Does that mean he's made restitution for previous instances of malpractice?

Five times?
edited to add: I just found this line on page 3

His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records.

Does he still have a medical license? (answered at edit) Why? Why was he allowed to open a clinic?

And there's a piss poor lack of information about "one of the other clinic owners," Gonzales who is the one who threw the baby in the trash. Was Gonzales a doctor? Med tech? RN? Business partner with no medical background? What?

I won't even say what I think of the presentation of this article at ABC. Or the even pro-choice advocates remark. 'Scuse me?

This story reminds me of a recent story from Vegas in which some "doctor" opened several health clinics around town and the medical providers were instructed to re-use needles. There were some other things but that's the one that stuck. He, too, had been charged in the past with malpractice in a case from which he financially benefitted by making a wrong diagnosis. The case report stunk to high heaven.

[wryter2000]

42. I work in med mal

It means he's settled some cases with payment (or, rather his insurance company has) and/or lost some cases in court or arbitration -- some combination that adds up to five. Five payments in a decade is very, very bad. It's actually rather difficult to win a medical malpractice case.

I don't know how the Medical Boards work in the states where he practices. Not all cases are reported to the Medical Board in CA, where I work. They either have to be a judgement against the doctor (plaintiff wins) or a settlement over a certain amount. However, I don't know if being late for a procedure is actionable. The tech is the one who didn't treat the baby correctly.

Editted to add: I've seen several doctors having to write reports about a med mal case and a few who had to show up for an interview. The worst result I've ever seen was the Medical Board was going to "watch" the doctor for a while. Clearly, this guy is bad.

[Cerridwen]

45. Thank you for your response.

I just wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly.

I wasn't thinking about whether or not what he did was actionable, just wondering how it is he can own a business for which he doesn't appear to be qualified when that business has to do with health care. No need to answer. I get the whole "it's just business" and any idiot can own a business concept. Just bugs me no end (and for a long time) that medicine and health care are treated as "just business."

And as I said, it reminded me of that case in Vegas.

[wryter2000]

47. My best guess

He was in major trouble in NY and went to Florida to practice. Not knowing those states, I don't know if FL would check his history in NY.

This isn't just business, and the doctors I know would be at the head of the mob with the pitchforks against this clown. Certainly, no hospital would hire him, but he opened his own clinic. Sounds exactly like the case you mention in Vegas.

:hi:

[Cerridwen]

51. Yeah, sorry for the broad brush there.

I was thinking of the millionare doctor out of California I think it was, saying that rich people should have better health care than poor people and that only those who could afford it should get any. I was thinking of the mindset of those types of "doctors." And of Vegas.

What?! You weren't in my head to get those thoughts? :D

:hi:

[wryter2000]

58. Understood

:hi:

[leftchick]

48. 23 weeks is awfully late to seek an abortion

Unless there was something wrong with the baby or mother. Which does not appear to be the case. Very sad.

[Starry Messenger]

52. I feel sympathy for the woman.

It seems she thought she was getting medical care and instead fell into the hands of a murderous quack who scammed her and put her and a live infant through hell. Sounds like an utter nightmare. It's why health care needs to be accessible for everyone.

[Bryn]

54. That's sad

threw out a live baby. This is not an abortion, but a murder. :(

[SidneyCarton]

56. If the child was born live, then this is murder.

On the part of the hospital staff. Well, maybe it is criminal negligence leading to death, but still it is reprehensible in the extreme.

[Ilsa]

57. This is OLD NEWS. The doctor ALREADY LOST HIS LICENSE:

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/node/9304

Florida Doctor Loses License Over Live Birth Case
A Florida doctor has lost his license over a case in which a teenager, seeking an abortion, instead gave birth "to a baby she says was killed when clinic staffers put it into a plastic bag and threw it in the trash," reports CNN. The teenager, Sycloria Williams, discovered she was pregnant at 23 weeks and scheduled an abortion. When she came to Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacques Renelique's clinic for an abortion, she then gave birth. The suit says, "The staff began screaming and pandemonium ensued. Sycloria watched in horror and shock as her baby writhed with her chest rising and falling as she breathed."