Are DU standards falling?

[Cyrano]

I'm not talking about Skinner or the moderators.

I'm talking about the changes in the level of thoughtfulness, (and yes, intelligence), I've been observing on DU over the past year or two. (And yeah, I know that that "intelligence" remark might produce an avalanche of criticism.)

For almost five years now, I've read DU far more than I've posted to it. It seems to me that a large number of intelligent posts die out quickly, while far too many shallow ones, that require little or no thought, get far too much attention.

What am I talking about? Consider the following two examples:

(1) Posts that many DUers take the time to think out, fact check, and then make a rational case for an issue, or enter a well-reasoned rant, and; (2) posts that may read "Fuck Bush!!! Fuck Cheney!!! They suck!!! I mean, FUCK 'EM, know what I mean???".

Which type of post do you suppose is more likely to end up with 200 responses?

But don't take my word for it. Take some time and monitor these two different worlds of DU posts. It shouldn't take you more than a week or two to notice what I'm bitching about here.

Anyhow, this post may turn out to be flame bait for some and a wake up call for others. Then again, perhaps there are many of you who have already noticed what I'm talking about.

Either way, lack of thoughtfulness makes us less what we claim to be, or aspire to be, and more like freeperville.

Agree, flame away, or ignore all of the above. But please try to keep it civil.

[Bicoastal]

1. U R so00oo dumm

Go two hell LOLOLOLOL

[Cyrano]

2. Thank you for helping to make my case.

[Bicoastal]

7. Please tell me you didn't take that seriously.

:hi:

[Lagomorph]

86. I didn't...

You don't have to hang a sarcasm flag on everything.

lololz!!!

[Divine Discontent]

175. you know better.... so all you can do is smile. ha

[cliffordu]

3. Intellectual underground is that way ----------->

Dawg.

[eppur_se_muova]

112. Um, that arrow should point to the left ... nt

[cliffordu]

116. It is pointing to the left when I'm inside your computer looking at you....

:rofl:

[eppur_se_muova]

118. D'oh! :^D

[Hardrada]

4. Huh? what u mean?

[Spike89]

5. Hope this doesn't get 200 responses...

it would kinda ruin your point.

[Cyrano]

174. Really? There's a difference between quantity and quality.

Seeing the number of responses over the past day doesn't enthrall me, depress me, or inspire me. I care about the quality of responses, not the quantity.

Had only one or two people replied to my post, or even had no one replied, that would not have deterred me, or changed the basic concept of what I had to say.

To be blunt, I'm searching for intelligent life on planet Earth.

And the purpose of this post is not to insult you. It is nothing more than a plea for you to join me in my quest.

[Spike89]

181. Understood, just joking a bit

In your OP you asked which type of post would likely get to 200 replies, the serious or the frivolous...
But to be serious myself for a second--I don't think its a matter of standards as much as it that DU has become a more diverse forum. Although I read much more than post and I didn't get my own account until a couple years ago, I've been a regular visitor since practically the beginning.

I don't see less intelligent reasoning, fewer good posts, or a lower quantity of strong replies. I do see more posts of all types--I think that in the early days especially, people came here mostly for the discussions you're talking about. Now, lots of us still come for those conversations, but because we enjoy the interplay, we also like talking about less serious matters too.

In some ways, I agree that the "clutter" is a pity. On the other hand, the lighter "social chat" posts might be the grease that keeps this place lubricated and the members engaged until the next big, serious issue requiring debate comes along. (there are always big events requiring debate, but many of us just can't focus exclusively on that level of discourse).

[AngryAmish]

6. I think Bush makes us stupidd

[Xenotime]

158. Fuck * Fuck vader

When are we putting them in prison anyway?

[bunnies]

8. When I was a member here in '04...

there was significantly more informational posts. I learned a ton from this site. Now, not so much. Theres way more fluff. :hide:

[azmouse]

9. You forgot the 'rec this if you agree'...

Oy.

[emilyg]

10. K/R

[Captain Hilts]

11. Yes.

Thoughtful pieces kind of get lost.

I had one poster asking my why I'm always bringing up the Great Depression. I had to defend myself in a series of posts.

I try to make references to history and that is generally ignored and if I can't "provide a link" I get fried. Beyond mentioning a specific book, how does one provide a link for such things? Is it true if there's a link for it and false if there is not?

I try to see both sides of debates and that's not popular here. Yes, I can see Laura Bush reading to a class of kids as Michelle did yesterday. She did so many times. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't make her as smart as Michelle. It's not a rap against Michelle that Laura Bush did the same thing. It's just responding honestly to the poster who started a thread asking if we could imagine Laura Bush doing such a thing. I can because she did.

[laconicsax]

17. Do you have a link?

:hi:

[Captain Hilts]

20. Here...let me see if I can find it...here you go!

http://otoh.org/mirror/restrooms.org/standing.html

[laconicsax]

52. Perfect, thanks!

[Cyrano]

55. More often than not, a link isn't necessary. Refer those demanding

a link to Google.

I've often posted things for which I don't have a link, yet, in looking it up myself on Google, I can find confirmation for what I posted.

Sometimes, those asking for a link are searching for the truth. Other times, it's just a tactic to disrupt and discredit the point you're trying to make.

[Captain Hilts]

57. Thanks. nt

[Greyhound]

72. I've found this is almost exclusively a tactic, not an honest inquiry.

The first hundred times or so, I went out and found the info online and provided the link, only to have the disruptor ignore it or change the topic.

Now, I don't even bother. If someone really wants to know they will find it themselves or occasionally PM me with a request, otherwise...

[datasuspect]

187. the "provide a link" gambit is used by often stupid people

who have no idea what proof constitutes or even what a primary source is.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. Unfortunately, people have short attention spans these days

And limited time. I know that I'm guilty of opening an OP and seeing that it's lengthy and well-thought, thinking to myself "I really should read this because there's probably some good information or insight in it but I don't know if I want to make the time commitment right now". When I do take the time, I'm almost always glad I did but I have to be in the mood.

[madrchsod]

13. i`ve been here since jan 2002 and not much has changed

[wtmusic]

161. Agree.

:hi:

[underseasurveyor]

14. For the most part it's always been like that.

And then it never fails someone posts a, why do the intelligent threads fall while the dumb threads thrive, post:evilgrin:

The more things change the more they stay the same.

[Cleita]

15. I find the thoughtful posts are still there. They are just lost in the dross.

I think it's because there are more people registered now than five years ago.

[Cerridwen]

16. Hey Cyrano.

You're not the only one who's noticed that phenomenon.

I don't know if it's falling standards or rising membership and the subsequent uptick in traffic. Maybe a little of both?

I think it makes it tough at times to track the well thought out posts, which tend to be longer, that can fall off the page before you've even read it to conclusion much less had a chance to reply.

I can recall a few instances of reading a long post, following the links usually provided, and by the time I'm ready to respond, the thread's on page 3. That's just a high traffic issue.

Longer more thoughtful posts take more time to digest and in the interim, fall off the page while people read.

[Cyrano]

50. Yep. I couldn't agree more.

Too bad that thinking is so hard for so many, and demands a bit of time.

I know that sounds condescending and it's meant to be. I'm tired of non-thinking people running the world -- as in the case of Bush and his mob -- or, more apparently, the know-nothing denizens of Fox News and the imbeciles who watch, listen to and believe them.

[omega minimo]

125. yes short posts are easier for the wankers

:wow:

[DS1]

18. K & R If you think (insert name SUCKS) FUCK EM

Yep, those people have been on ignore. Whatever thought comes out of their ass crawls up their pants, shirt, arms and somehow shits all over this place via fevered fingers.

[Spazito]

19. I haven't noticed a big difference since I joined in 2002...

threads that some might find superficial/vanity get greater response than a well researched, issue-oriented thread will quickly fall off page one. I have also seen well-researched, issue-oriented threads make the greatest page very quickly AND stay on page one for a good period of time.

I don't think it is a 'standards' issue, it is merely the ebb and flow of a fast-moving forum in this internet age.

I have no problem with the 'standards' that have been set by DU, they are adequate, imo.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. I have actually posted variants of the same thread

and watched some soar and some drop like the proverbial lead balloon. I think the whole thing is largely a matter of chance and who happens to be on the board at a given moment, and who gets triggered to make a useful or provocative response before the thread falls off the edge of the earth.

[Spazito]

43. I agree, timing has a lot to do with it as well as who is logged on at the time...

and the time of day or night, as well can affect the responses to any thread.

[Cyrano]

48. Yep. They are adequate. "Adequate." Now that's an enviable standard.

[Spazito]

54. LOL, I guess by your standards, I can then deem your response as....

adequate.

[Cyrano]

58. No insult intended. I'm just spitting down on the term "adequate" from my

God-like position up here in Valhalla.

[kenny blankenship]

21. Must Stop Krugmannn!1!1111

Krugman makes dirty bombs because he h8 teh OBAMA!1!1111

(Just thought this was the most appropriate place to post that.)

[durablend]

22. Lot more freepers posting here that's for sure

Some end up departing, but it seems there's a lot more sticking around

[Mari333]

23. After solemn and fastidious pondering

I will accede that I have also noticed a superfluous malfeasance erupt vis a vis tumultuous and rabid posts that encourage various scenarios depicting mr cheney and mr bush in flagrante delicto, that been said, I have surreptitiously conceded that such remarks fall firmly within the realm of reason and logic when one is pissed off.
:+

[Cyrano]

59. I couldn't agree more.

But there's a difference between being pissed off and the inability express oneself with the elegance you've just demonstrated.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

166. Love your jocose, polysyllabic sesquipedalianism.

I now lioinize you as my personal paladin.

:party:

[Junkdrawer]

24. Generally, if you post something most agree with, it dies...

If you post something outrageous, it gathers hundreds of posts.

If you post something that encourages division, it gathers hundreds of posts.

Dividing this place is Easy as Pie.

[pipi_k]

155. I don't think it's a matter of "division"

As much as it's a matter of people actually thinking for themselves.

For example, look at most of the posts over in Freeperville. At least nine out of ten of them are all of the "I agree with you" variety. Doesn't take much thought to agree, does it? Or maybe they're AFRAID to disagree... Maybe all that agreement is part of the Freeper sickness...disagree and you're a "traitor"...

OTOH, here on DU there's lots of disagreement. OK, maybe the tone could be a little better...it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable...but at least most of us feel relatively free to NOT fall into lockstep with everyone else.

And that's good.

People who post stuff they suspect everyone will agree with...why do they do that, anyway? Aren't they basically only looking for validation for what they already think?

I think controversy...as long as it's kept civil...is mentally stimulating. And it doesn't even have to involve "facts and figures".

:)

[Sandrine for you]

25. It's all my fault, sorry...

[AlCzervik]

26. any threads asking for rec's and the one hit wonders, OMG TWEETY SAID WHAT?

no.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

27. General Discussion

is for GENERAL DISCUSSION. All kinds of things on this board. And since when do you tell people to "flame away but keep it civil?" Oy vey. And thanks for telling us we are turning into idiots.
:eyes:

If you want more serious content - try GDP - there seems to be more "thoughtful posts" there. It's where the *smart* people go to post EVERYTHING. Even when it has zero to do with "presidential" content.

[bobthedrummer]

32. Dean's List; High Honors don't mean sheet....

:think:

[Kaleva]

28. It's that way in every forum I read. Two different worlds.

The borderline flame-bait threads do seem to attract the most attention while the well thought out and detailed posts disappear rather quickly. It may be the nature of the internet where one is not face to face with others discussing one certain subject. I am bouncing all over the place here. Reading quickly, possibly making a comment or two before reading another OP. Truth be told, it's the more provocative titles that are bound to catch my attention.

[smoogatz]

30. There are standards?

Who knew.

[Jane Austin]

31. Sometimes a post is so well thought out and executed that

the author has said all I would want to say. I sit here and nod my head in agreement or in wonder.

Sometimes I remember to say "Thanks for posting this" or "Amen".

But I may not have much of substance to add to a real discussion.

And sometimes the post is so convoluted or mixed up - no matter how provocative - that I wouldn't have time to respond to my satisfaction even if I knew where to start.

And sometimes the best posts just sink below posts like "Randi's on fire!" or twelve versions of "Daschle's out!".

Once I posted something I thought was thoughtful and worth posting and I had the misfortune of posting it at the same moment an entertainment story broke and my post never surfaced again.

Sigh.

Right now I'm complaining but on weekends and holidays I long for more posts, so perhaps I'm just a malcontent. :)

[Froward69]

33. let me help

FUCK BUSH AND ALL THE REPUBLICANS!!!

that should raise the standard here.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. Hell Yeah.

It's been a downward spiral for well over a year now. I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Javaman]

35. Nice post, hitler. nt

[Terran]

36. A lot of folks here are inclined to shoot from the hip.

They mean well, but when it comes to complex issues, they respond with gut feelings and what their gut is telling them is sometimes wrong. It's human nature I guess, and I'd imagine the problem is worse over on the Dark Side.

I was going to cite a specific recent example, but it would probably just get several folks riled up if they saw it.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

37. Falling? I'm sorry, but that's the way it's always been.

D.U. is the ideological mirror of Free Republic, and only one step up from it.

Most people who come here are not interested in thoughtful discussion. They're
interested in validation, and most typically validation of their anger. It gets complex,
of course, because there really is a lot to be angry about, but the board is dominated
by emotional reasoners with a tribal us-vs-them mindset that really don't care for subtlety.
Add to this the ability to "recommend" crude rants written in very short sentences, and
you get a typical political echo-chamber.

Here's the thing: the D.U. is what it is. Don't expect that it will change. Further, it
shouldn't. Free Republic needs an ideological mirror, so why not the D.U.?

Rather, if the D.U. is bothering you, change how you deal with it. Skim heavily. Don't
get involved in the "so-and-so isn't a REAL Democrat(tm), he's never worn a designer label
Che Guevara t-shirt in his life" type arguments. And everything will be fine.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[NeedleCast]

40. Damn

That was brave.

(and correct)

[Lance_Boyle]

56. Mirror image? How DARE you?!?

"Ow! My ovaries!" is so much more worthwhile than "Ow! My balls!"


























:thumbsup:

[QC]

92. Ouch! But very apt. n/t

[NeedleCast]

38. I'll take self-defeating topic for 500, Alex

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. Yes, they have.

The "meaty" posts too often slip down the page, to disappear.

I am as much to blame as anyone -- I often read those threads but do not comment -- I will make an effort to help keep these types of threads alive.

DU is only as good as the people who choose to participae and how they choose to participate.

[timtom]

185. There is also the cult of personality phenomenon

I have posted responses that have had no responses, while downthread a later post by someone more well known gets several responses.

[snot]

41. Agreed completely.

[gkhouston]

42. Depends on how long it takes to get this thread moved to the Lounge. n/t

[snooper2]

44. Since you've been around so long- you should know

a variant of this exact post is "posted" approx. every 5-6 months

:rofl:

That should answer your question :)

[rosesaylavee]

45. Yes there has been a change.

I am hopeful tho that it will return. People are under a great deal of stress and the increasing use of the F bomb is maybe understandable in that light. Perhaps after some of the programs the Obama admin implements there will be some gradual release of tension and more info posts will return.

:hi:

[4 t 4]

46. I posted something like this about

a month ago and oh boy did I take a beating for it. I've noticed many more rude and snarky comments than ever before.Lack of thoughtfulness Big-Time

[Cyrano]

63. Yep, I expected it. I'm wearing my flame retardant suit.

[rosesaylavee]

110. Ah, but you wear it well.

It has to be said I think from time to time so people stop and think about what they are saying.

[spanone]

47. what standards?

[madmom]

49. I don't reply to every post I read, intelligent or other wise.

[H2O Man]

51. I think so.

A few people I have known for a few years through DU believe so, too.

[devilgrrl]

53. I often nominate the thoughtful posts for the "greatest" page.

I wish that function would also keep those threads kicked.

[Greyhound]

60. Victim of it's success IMO.

2006 and earlier DU was the brave little forum/refuge for political/news junkies. Insiders and the curious had this outlet to learn/teach, and it grew through word of mouth. Then it started to get popular. DU is mentioned on other blogs, in commentaries, letters to the editor, and on television and radio programs.

Now, the masses start to become aware of it's existence and start to come here. Look at any popular site, read the dreck that is posted. Add the professional posters (I know, they don't exist. Political parties and large organizations always ignore media opportunities where there are millions of people), and other advocates for various issues and this is what you get.

[Cyrano]

65. I guess you're right, Greyhound.

I suppose the lesson to be learned from this is that success breeds mediocrity.

Oops, I did it again. More flames on the way.

[Greyhound]

70. It's a hard truth to accept. I don't know if it's people everywhere or just America.

Maybe I was just too young to notice, or have a tendency to remember the good stuff and forget the bad, but I'd swear this country wasn't always like this.

[intheflow]

121. This is exactly my thought.

I couldn't have stated it better. We've become a magnet for disruptors and single-issue advocates. We always had them, but the publicity the site's gotten has brought them out in force.

[NashVegas]

126. They Don't Exist

Hehe. I liked the one that joined right after the 2004 election as Dem Strategist or something like that. Everyone was all like, "dude, just buy an ad."

[Name removed]

61. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cottonseed]

62. Kids these days.

It was better in my day.

[Cyrano]

68. Get off my lawn.

[Starry Messenger]

64. I think someone asks this question every few years...

It's always fun to see the range of answers. My opinion, probably someone was remarking in the drop in quality after the first week the website was established. I think it goes through phases depending on what is going on in the world. I do see more conservative opinions now. That bothers me, but I guess it's the nature of the beast.

[tavalon]

66. When I read an especially long, thought provoking peice, I am usually

mulling it over for quite a while and sometimes I don't get back to make a post but it's those thought provokers that have taught me so much and are why I stay even when it's loud and getting stupider here as it sometimes does. I pick through and find my gems.

[hfojvt]

99. I find that I get good stuff

when I add some people to my buddy list. Then their latest journal entries are featured when I hit "my DU".

[JerseygirlCT]

67. Well, here's one thought:

Many of those in-depth, carefully cited posts tend to be LONG. People may simply not have the time or inclination to wade through them.

I know from my profession that if you want people to read, you have to keep the paragraphs short, and the sentences, too in most cases. And it doesn't hurt if you're using a headline to keep that pithy as well. (In this case, the subject line of the post).

I've seen some of the longer ones - and while I admire all the work that's gone into them, I don't often have the energy to read them all the way through... This is a medium, at least in my humble opinion, that works better with succinct communications.

So perhaps not a reflection of intelligence, but of how much time the reader wishes to invest.

[Cyrano]

69. I've thought about that, but many of the more intelligent posts I'm

referring to are often quite terse.

And they fall just as quickly as the long ones.

[pipi_k]

152. Just wanted to say...

thank you for expressing my own thoughts on this.

I have limited patience/tolerance for long, drawn out posts that often do not contain paragraph breaks.

I'm also not much inclined to read anything containing lots of numbers or "statistics". Not because I don't believe them, but because I have this weird mind thing that turns my brain off when I'm faced with numbers. It's like trying to force someone to read a language he doesn't know.

Also, with regards to something the OP (or maybe someone else...I don't recall right now) mentioned...controversial threads may not always be the most intelligent (as judged by people who tend to judge such things) but they sure can be way more interesting than threads citing "facts and figures" that attract even more "facts and figures" or else people all sitting around going, "Uh, huh...I agree with you".

So anyway, like you mentioned...keeping posts relatively succinct and making them easy to read might go a long way toward attracting more responses...

[JerseygirlCT]

180. I was thinking today that another reason those posts might

garner attention is that passion draws attention.

So even though it might not be the most high-brow, intellectual subject... if it's very strongly felt that can come across and draw people to open it, and then read it.

Just another thought!

(Oh and thanks - I do know what you mean!)

[Deja Q]

71. More than a mere 2 years, but I agree

K&R

[newtothegame]

73. Or how bout the "K & R if"'s or the "This post will probably sink like a rock BUT..."...

How desperate can people get to see their online anonymous usernames at the top of a page?

[Skinner]

74. Here you go...

This post is three-and-a-half years old, but it seems to get even better with age...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4866571&mesg_id=4869867

I suspect I'll be busting that one out for the next decade or so. ;-)

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

76. I am STILL waiting for my pony.

I thought for sure that modding would get me to the top of the list. Sheesh.

[Dr.Phool]

81. Not to change the subject, but.......

Wake up. You've overslept!

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

103. I took a poll & most were on the side of not changing it.

Thought everyone would realize that it was a slam on dumbya. And as big of a disaster as this country is in, thanks to dumbya, I don't know if I want to wake up just yet. Maybe next year. And the biggest reason is that mods weren't allowed to change our names until our gig was up.

[JuniperLea]

80. With all the meta issues...

How do you find time for political issues?

:rofl:

I agree... the percentage remains the same, though the numbers have grown. I "alert" a whole lot more than ever, but I still don't "ignore." Well, except during primary season:)

[AlCzervik]

85. The fun is over.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3499154

[Regret My New Name]

167. woah...haha

[mogster]

87. Good post, Skinner

As many posts in this thread has proved, no labels can be attached to the debate itself but 'diversity', which is the DU strength ;-)

[4 t 4]

90. That's exactly when it started

3 1/2 years ago but it's been much worse lately. Hehehehe Love you Skinner

[Le Taz Hot]

75. Steadily, for the past 8 years.

It's happened to every political website and before that, BBS, that I've ever been on. I'm not so concerned about the civility, it's the lack of thought put into 95% of the posts AND the subjects.

[bridgit]

77. Falling? No. In many ways DU is like the weather in San Diego...it seldom ever changes ~

The question is I think: do you find such a weather pattern enjoyable?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

120. Hey!

It's cold and clear here today - It is usually clear and warm. It rained over the weekend and we had horrible winds too. It was so Kansas. :)

[bridgit]

127. heh-heh, well, I mean, cept for that global warming stuff...

:hi:

[MajPayne2]

186. You stay classy San Diego...

:smoke:

[LanternWaste]

78. I've actually been in the habit of citing...

I've actually been in the habit of citing books in some of the deeper conversations I've involved myself in and was berated because I source a book rather than providing a link.

A handful of times, I've seen posters chastised merely for citing the actual definition of a word, the retort being something along the lines of, "if you have to resort to the dictionary, you've already lost the argument".

And having gone into the 9/11 forum on occasion... well, that place makes the Rapture Ready forums look intelligent.



All that being said, sure-- there's a few lowest-common-denominator posts which seem to get all the attention, but we still maintain a lot of gems of thoughtful posts and insightful responses-- which is why I keep coming back. :)

[seabeyond]

79. yes, conversation or lack of has shifted. but it isnt totally gone

in the posts that have just the standard snarky answer i do not even bother a reply. to the person that actually interacts even in disagreement, i can have a discussion. there are so few of those, that when it happens i generally say thank you

[Vickers]

82. I've noticed that people tend to be a little more thin-skinned recently.

There are these little waves of victim-mentality that wash through here occasionally, and they seem to be becoming more frequent.

I tend to enjoy the thoughtful posts *and* the more outrageous ones (for different reasons, obviously). Variety and all that.

[MrPerson]

83. They let me in.

[skeewee08]

84. Blame it on the past 8 years, we were dumbed down by what's his name Bushed!

[bobbolink]

88. Add to that.. the level of AUTHORITARIANISM has gone Waaaaay up, too!

Telling people what to think, what to say, how to "feel" (as if that can be programmed), etc.... Yes, we are rapidly becoming much more authoritarian.

It's soooo attractive.

:puke:

[Runcible Spoon]

89. Have been since DU got big enough to attract paid shills to push agendas around here.

Neatly organized talking points pass all too often as independent thought. It's sad but inevitable for a forum this size. With a decent sense of skepticism as a filter, you can still find a lot of worthy discussions here, though.

[conscious evolution]

95. Way to many gatekeepers here.

[donco6]

139. True. After a while the shills become pretty obvious.

They're like broken records, and you see their names whenever Topic X arises. Krugman is easy to search for, and attracts quite a few.

[QC]

91. Far less information lately, and far more groupthink.

It used to be possible to get a real education here in politics, government, and practically every other topic you can think of. Now there's a lot less of that and a lot more fluff. And we won't even get into the hostility.

Yes, people always talk about the good ole days, but I am one of the oldest old-timers members still on DU--member number 2,785--and I have seen some big changes since 2001, not all of them good.

[tblue37]

93. And then there are all those annoying "K&R this thread" threads.

They clog up the Greatest page with empty posts that a lot of people have K&R'ed not because they deserved to be K&R'ed, but just because the attention-seeking poster begged to be K&R'ed and some people couldn't stop themselves from doing what they were told to do.

[Fly by night]

94. Thank you. It has gotten noticeably worse in the past month.

This past weekend seemed to be a contest to see how much profanity could be spewed from the brain-holes of some OPers. It really stunk up the place.

Then there are the aging cheerleaders who post a two line OP that says nothing more than "Yay, Obama!! Isn't he just the greatest?". And then they post another OP begging for recs because no one got them on the "Greatest" page the first time around.

I have been thinking of asking Skinner to open a "sand-box" forum for those who think spewing profanity and leading mindless cheers for the obvious are worthy pursuits. Not me.

As I posted several times last week (and once today), this spike in profanity is taking me back to my 18 months in a federal Bureau of Prisons facility where profanity (particularly "f***" and "m*****-f*****") was part of every sentence. On those rare occasions when I could get on-line back then, DU was a refuge from all that. Not any more.

I really suspect that folks who post that incessant verbal diarrhea or rah-rah mindlessness are doing it to discredit this forum, and nothing more. That, or they're suffering some serious arrested development (since the posts in "m*****-f*****" OPs are almost always of the "Dude, that was, like, awesome!!" sub-genre).

Again, thanks for this OP. It needs to be said, now and anytime the potty-mouths and "rec me please" numb-skulls start to predominate.

[pacalo]

108. Both arrested development and a need to sound "tough".

What gets me in the craw the most is the type of poster who consistently seems to look for posts that he/she can disagree with, & although he/she can manage to make a point, does so in the most callous, demeaning way possible, while using as much street-talk four-letter words as possible. The my-way-or-the-highway looking for a fight & an opportunity to display to everyone how "tough" he/she is. It's quite obvious this person is miserable, but I see no reason to accommodate it; after having read the DU rules, it is my opinion he/she should have been tombstoned many times over.

Good post, Fly, & I totally agree.

[donco6]

140. We're missing the news followers that we used to have.

There used to be people who were able to sit at their computers all day, creating posts on the latest news developments, just as they appeared on CNN or MSNBC or whatever. Lately it's more the "free association" posts.

[ProfessorGAC]

96. Sorry, Don't Agree

I've been here a LONG time. Around February of 2001. (Check my user ID. It's a pretty darned low number.)

I think it's been pretty much like this the whole time. And i've seen ebbs and flows the whole time too.

And just remember: The whole ethos is going to change now that we're more prone to infighting. Our side is in charge now, so we have more about which to disagree.
GAC

[Mike 03]

97. You raise many critical questions that deserve a thoughtful response.

In a thread this long, I doubt it is even worthwhile to respond.

I'm sure some honest and thoughtful responses have been suggested.

Your supposition, IMO, is correct. But I think the causes are multiplicative and complicated.

But I commend you for posting this.

K&R

[Cyrano]

177. Thanks for the post Mike.

And you're right, the issues I raised in the OP are critical. But resolving these issues are, of course, virtually impossible in today's political, "bumper-sticker"/"sound bite" environment.

I may have already posted this quote elsewhere in this thread, but, as H.L. Mencken said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

Reading DU on a daily basis tends to both undermine and underscore Mencken's remark. On any given day, we are all free to read the best and worst beliefs/thoughts/biases of our fellow humans. (Well, probably not the worst. That appears on sites other than DU.)

[conscious evolution]

98. I have an idea that may help.

Extend the two day time period for showing and linking to users posts on the MY DU page.
A few months ago there was a glitch that kept posts up on MY DU for a week or so.It seemed to me that it helped raise the discourse a littleby giving people more time to research topics and be more thoughtfull in their postings.
Perrsonally,I think that the two day limit contributes to the ADD like atmosphere around here.

[Faygo Kid]

100. Reminds me of "Jeopardy."

Which is almost unwatchable anymore.

[Runcible Spoon]

102. Pff, you're just upset you didn't know the Miley Cyrus answers.

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slay]

105. Explains why

you're still here. BURN! hahahah.. just kidding.. but that was a nice burn... :rofl:

[zonmoy]

106. Only reason I still stop by is because I end up bored at work and at home.

That and its better than getting even more depressed.

[slay]

134. Awww... youz knowz youz lovez us...

zzzzz :grouphug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. Oh, yeah.

Real intellectual powerhouse, that place.

[Warren DeMontague]

129. I especially like the misspelling of "independent", too.

Way to bag on everyone else's brainpower, there, guy.

Spellcheck, STAT!

[Warren DeMontague]

130. Is that the place where all the anti-semites go after they get tombstoned?

:shrug:

[inthebrain]

183. I guess, but that doesn't mean there aren't tons here

Crap, you can find just about any kind of bigotry here as you do there.

People who don't like gays/ Check

People who don't like Blacks/ Check

People who don't like Jews and Jew paranoids/ Check

People who don't like arabs/ Check

People who really hate immigrants/ HUGE CHECK!!!

They are here and they are there. Problem is that the Democratic Party pitches an "open tent" which means an invite to all sorts of bullshit. It's no where close to an ideological left party although it does try to pass itself off as one at time.

This opens up a huge invite for the fake left to exploit the conversation and enter right wing themes masked as leftisim (Think economic populism and economic nationalism which are two of the same things).


This place just makes so these people have to hide it and express this stuff in covert ways. The rules here outlaw anyone calling it out.

[slay]

104. Quick - call the DU office of standards and practices and file a complaint immediately!!!

um... :crazy: ....................... :sarcasm:

[pacalo]

107. Not long ago, there was a post on the Greatest Page that had umpteen rec's & stayed there over the

48-hr. limit, which simply said:

"You must turn on (some tv show; think it was Olbermann) NOW!"

[ms liberty]

111. I agree. K&R n/t

[amborin]

113. agree completely

[K Gardner]

114. You are absolutely correct. Its rather discouraging. I now try to use the F-word in the title to

all my posts, so at least one or two people will read them :-) :hi:

[eppur_se_muova]

115. Things ain't what they used to be, and probably never was.

Couldn't find a link for that, but feel free to Google it. :)

[ProgressIn2008]

117. You're correct, though to be fair, I've seen that trend in various internet forums

with diverse topics, so it's not a DU thing, per se. Boards change and they tend not to get more complex or more thoughtful, but less -- the anonymous internet dynamic, maybe.

I lurked here long before I posted and I would say that after 9/11, DU was one of the best political boards that existed. Some days, it was the best, without exception. Somewhere, I have a disk with some long, intricate research threads on PNAC -- I used to think of DU as a group PNAC specialists, in particular. But, things change and you never find the river the same way twice.

Heh, the "FUCK BUSH THEY SUCK!!" posts strike me the same way, too. There are thoughtful threads in the DU groups, though.

[Earth Bound Misfit]

119. Hide thread is your friend.

K & R this response if you are breathing!

[Mike 03]

122. Well, you are right, but I can see your thread is going to drop

like a stone, just like most every other discourse on this topic.

[yurbud]

123. it's trolls trying to rack up posts so they look credible when they post their...

PR firms talking points.

There should be a way to filter those people out.

[JNelson6563]

124. Lots of vanity posts, weather reports and

OMG!!11! Did you just see that on MSNBC??? n/t

Used to take me some time to wade through LBN and GD reading good stuff, now, not so long.

Julie

[bridgit]

131. Rec if you like me, rec if you really, really like me!

[Warren DeMontague]

128. Standards?

There are standards? :shrug:

[KoKo]

132. DU goes in cycles....and most of the time yelling "FUCK YOU! POS...THIS LIE"

get's to the top. Before we had a Front Page where folks could post that to the top and it would stay up there when you log onto DU and have to see it (and want to take a shower)....those posts always went to the top where many others sunk like lead tied to their tale.

It's not always like that...but it does come in cycles...although the cycles for "FUCK YOU, COCKSUCKER, LYING POS! do tend to last longer than the rest.

Just saying. Don't worry about it...just kick and be sure to recommend the "thoughtful posts" (because often times folks forget them and that's just why they sink off to Archives. Also...if you post a thoughtful post...kick it yourself a few times or just post a thoughtful reply to the one or two who responded to you. Otherwise you will go crazy thinking you are alone....or just don't have anything worthwhile to say. Most people don't have time these days to do more than "scroll" so you have to stand up for your post and those you think are worthwhile.

Okay...LECTURE IS OVER...:D

[BlooInBloo]

133. It's always been that way as far as I know...

That's why I don't often bother with thought-intensive OPs - with no relevant audience, such effort is wasted.

[Iggo]

135. The Law Of Large numbers, maybe?

Or the Bell Curve?

What I mean is, there's a helluva lot more people here than there used to be.

Call it Regression Toward the Mob...lol.

[Subdivisions]

136. Recently I wrote a rather involved and researched post on Davos

and I was disappointed to watch it fall like a rock. I even kicked it a couple of times to no avail. Kinda hurt my feelings after all the time and effort I put into it. That wasn't the first time either.

Makes me think twice about making the effort. Perhaps that is some of what is happening to the quality.

[.... callchet ....]

147. It is just as important to say what you have to say.

Whether or not it gets read, it still develops your self.

[Cyrano]

179. IMO, weekend readers/posters are more open to

thoughtful, and/or lengthy posts.

It may be a matter of available time. I don't know.

[Irish Girl]

137. Admittedly, mainly a lurker here

I do notice the majority of posts either consist of clever one-line zingers or a neat little paragraph. I'm very grateful for the posters who contribute several thoughtful paragraphs - there inevitably are valuable little nuggets buried inside. But those types of threads do seem to sink quickly. Which reminds me, I need to start 'bumping' threads more instead of just rec'ing them.

:toast:

[ScreamingMeemie]

138. Well...ummm...errr...what the hell...why not?

Yes, why yes it has. It is odd for me that I can now go entire days without needing to glance at this place once. Why? Thanks for asking and I'll be glad to tell you...

The level of group think, you're either with us, or against us (sound familiar, folks?) is appalling.
The level of homophobia, and hate speak is rival to other websites I won't name...only we're all cutesie snarky about it here.
The fact that I guess we're all supposed to just sit here and swallow Pablum for the next 4 years because we're either Dem haters or *gasp* Amurika haters if we dare question our own party.
The fact that the number 1 "kicked and rec'd" (god I hate those words now) thread is a story, not a news story, not something to teach us something...just a happy little story.

Good night everyone. Perhaps I'm in a lifelong bad mood, eh?

[democracy1st]

141. Yes its like uploading a 10sec video on youtube that gets 1mil hits and a video that took 3hrs

to make gets 200,its the nature of the beast I guess. :shrug: I agree :wtf:

[MrMickeysMom]

142. I'm glad you brought it up...

I monitor it, and I'm a bit frustrated by it and I don't really know what it represents. Can it be related to age? What age? Breathalyzer test before post? Aggressive behavior plus all of the above?

Yours is a reminder that whatever you type deserves some thought and certainly civility.

Oh, pardon me... I farted. :blush:

[Canuckistanian]

143. I admit, I always read the posts that begin with "Fuck "

But most of the time, it's a lame short post that ends "That is all".

But like today's post about DiFi, it's a worthwhile read sometimes.

I don't really think that the thoughtful posters have given up. After all, we still have prolific posters such as Time for Change, Octofish, Michael Collins(Autorank) Will Pitt and Hissyspit, to name just a few of our bright stars.

[Norrin Radd]

144. I don't mind the short exclamatory posts,

I just wish they'd clue the reader in on the subject matter. People need to assume that not everyone is up on the day's events. Those posts that are like, "Did you hear that? I can't believe so and so said that at that thing!" drive me cuckoo.

[pipi_k]

153. Exactly...

I can never tell if people who do that are just assuming everyone knows what they're talking about, or if they're trying to show how "in" they are by sharing what seems to be a private joke with a limited number of others.


In either case, I nearly always think, "OK, have your fun" and back my way out of the topic without posting.

[Canuckistanian]

159. Here's the ultimate post saying essentially what you just said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x349888

[HamdenRice]

145. Unquestionably the quality has gone down -- but there are specific areas of dumb nt

[Lex]

146. It's about the same as it ever was.

nt

[Beam Me Up]

162. I agree. n/t

[sendero]

148. Boards like this..

... are for the exchange of ideas but also for blowing off steam and venting frustration.

Ignore the threads that you think are more heat than light.

[Creideiki]

149. The collective intelligence of any population is a constant

Add more people to the population, and there's less intelligence to go around.

[sofa king]

150. Hee hee hee!

I don't remember when I first wandered into this place, but it was at least five years ago now.

When I did, my first thought was, "this place is a flippin' madhouse!" People ranting and tossing around compound epithets like "fuckdoggle." People asking questions in a thread and having a dozen replies that excoriate the questioner for asking, and the answer innocuously tucked away in another, unrelated post. People extrapolating from three paragraphs of a news article and drawing completely incorrect conclusions from it. People yelling in all caps because they're too lazy to learn how to use the shift key. And if aliens are intercepting our transmissions and trying to learn the difference between "their" and "they're," "do" and "due," or where to place an apostrophe in a plural noun (hint: usually you don't), they're not gonna learn it from us.

But over the years, I watched that mass of incoherent rage and anguish become very coherent, even directed--not from above, but from a common interest derived from the most basic set of values that could be agreed upon (because we don't really agree on anything but that). About a year ago I saw people starting to ask things like, "how can I help topple this evil regime?"

And then we did! We did it, for God's sake! Most of the people here at DU put their money where their virtual mouths are, hit the pavement, and damn if the world isn't already a better place for it.

I love DU because it's like tapping directly into the id of America's collective mind. Now that we finally control the board, it's only natural that we shall fragment again, arguing vehemently over which courses are the correct ones to take, and splitting the hairs of expedience.

So be it. Now I know for sure that when the chips are down DU transforms itself into an engine of change. And in the meantime, it's a helluva laugh.

If you don't like what's going on here, well, as Ghandi suggested, change must come from within. Here a are a few rules I never follow, but if I did I'd probably be an asset to this place:

1) Be polite, especially to those who are impolite to you;

2) Order your thoughts in complete sentences, avoiding sofa king's list of pet peeves, which will never be enumerated so that freeper trolls cannot drive me insane by using them;

3) Properly code your posts. Just above the window in which you write your post, there is an HTML lookup table which is easy to use. But that link I just gave is probably wrong because I did not....

4) Use the "Preview" button before posting;

5) If you're going to state a fact, have the decency to cite it with a hyperlink. The Internet makes citation easy, and you'll save half a page of arguing over it. More than that, you are trying to inform your fellow readers by providing them with the information you already know so well. If you absolutely cannot code in HTML, DU allows you to simply dump the whole link in your post, and you can provide a list of ugly-ass links at the bottom of your post so that it looks less bad;

6) Acquaint yourself with the big list of logical fallacies and visit the Free Republic to see every single damned one of them put to use, every damned day.

Like I said, I don't follow these rules very well myself, but after reading this hilarious thread, maybe I'll try.

Have a nice day!

[.... callchet ....]

151. I have learned more here than any other singular source in my life.

I am thankful and grateful. Every time someone takes the time to hit a key pad in response to me, I both learn and appreciate.

[NNN0LHI]

154. I don't see many "Fuck Bush!!! Fuck Cheney!!! posts around here. Never have

Plenty of "Fuck Pelosi!!! Fuck Reid!!! posts though.

I write them off as freepers, NaderNuts and other assorted goof balls.

I wouldn't worry about it though. Its not a big deal really. They have always been here.

Don

[pipi_k]

156. PS...this is why

I have never actually started a thread of my own, although there have been times when I've considered it.

I don't need, or want, to be jumped on by the self-appointed thread judges. We've all seen them. They're the ones who can't resist leaving some kind of snarky comment like "World's stupidest thread" or "Why are you posting this crap????" instead of just backing out and going on to another.

I don't want to spend hours later on asking myself over and over if what I had to say (or ask) was "intelligent enough".

Posting within a thread...not so intimidating, as one can always hope it sort of gets buried and doesn't attract too much negative attention. But actually starting a thread itself...nope. Haven't up till now, and probably never will.

Maybe there are others who feel the same way I do, and if there are, that's a pretty sad thing, because the thread judges...complaining about the "quality" of the place... may be contributing in some small way to whatever "problem" they see.

Oh well. :shrug:

[Kashka-Kat]

157. Too many people like the adrenalin buzz that conflict provides - its like that everywhere Im afraid

Civic discourse in general has gone down the toilet - from presidential candidates on down to talk shows and most forums - its the raw stupid conflict that gets the most attention and the nuanced thoughtful statements that get ignored

(mostly)

[Occam Bandage]

160. Rather than DU's standards falling, I believe yours are rising.

DU is an internet forum, and is fairly unexceptional as one. As with all internet forums catering to the politically active, this place can be a cesspool, in which embittered partisans shout invective against the shit-smeared walls simply to hear the hollow echoes reverberate in the ears. It's been like that for years, because the internet has been like that since the days of BBS, and all parts gravitate towards the character of the whole.

Just ignore those posts and look for the smart people, because intelligent discussion does exist here. You just need to find it between "K&R IF WE NEED TO LYNCH CHENEY" and "OBAMA THREW US ALL UNDER THE BUS AGAIN.

[Kajsa]

163. You are 100% correct,Cyrano.

I've noticed thoughtful, interesting threads sink like a stone
in spite of my kicks, and

not so great ones full of rancor and little else soar like eagles.

It's not very encouraging.

:(

[ElboRuum]

164. DU standards are not falling...

They are what they've always been. In any community, unless you make the "desired traits" a qualification for membership, you're going to have a gamut of reasons the members of that community are there. Similarly, you are going to have disparities in qualities and quantities of involvement in that community. Now, since the primaries and election have generated new memberships, you might at least have a point that this set of circumstances brought in more of one particular type of poster than another, however, I believe that the types of postings you are referring to were always both well represented.

As far as the response count, I think what you are seeing is merely a visceral response from a community of users who have felt not only left out of the culture, but actively targeted by that culture, now feeling that desire to be circumspect lifted and to have the desire to be heard manifest, whether with reason and intelligence or incoherent shouting.

Personally, I understand the shouting and the visceral plunge into invective, even though I wish we had more of the more reasoned (though equally emphatic) dialogue.

We on DU have always seemed to have the CAPACITY to rise above simple catcalls and provide an elevated level of expression, however the DESIRE to actually do this may vary in its prevalence. It may be right that, at this moment, feeling as we do of finally being a force for change after 8 years of cultural and political marginalization, we're still fighting off the adrenaline haze of an important battle fought and won and that's where all of the (2) posts come from, and it may very well be that (2) posts are more likely to get more response in such an environment. But what can you do but wait it out?

My guess is that after the first 100 days, we'll have probably gotten rid of most of that euphoria. We'll have a better idea of how we stand and what needs to be further done. Then you'll see more of the (1) posts.

[onehandle]

165. Yes. Especially after the botched way the primaries were handled here.

Resulting in a DU that is a hair more relevant than FR.

[dcsmart]

168. agree 100% and i'm new. N/T

[BlancheSplanchnik]

169. thought out posts take alot of time and energy

that would likely account for the proportions. And yeah, I've been frustrated at times by that.

You sure did inspire alot of creative humor, though.
(sometimes the post n run type can be hilarious)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

170. Sometimes, the key is a catchy title

I forgot to say....

[4 t 4]

171. One thing I've noticed

and I might be off on it but almost every thread I read has people on Ignore. I don't remember it being like that before. Skinner talk me down please. Thank You

[JitterbugPerfume]

172. I agree Cyrano, but

I read more than I post and the more thoughtful posts usually say what needs to be said and I don't respond with my usual inanity.
It defeats the purpose of keeping thoughtful posts alive

[veganlush]

173. You're right, and it's symptomatic of our society...

we want instant gratification. Long posts take too long for some people to read (or write). Americans want everything fast and in pill form. We subsist on fast food garbage that is loaded with sugar, salt and cholesterol, and low on what we need like whole grain fiber, fresh fruits and vegetables. We are an obese society.

It's to the point that disorders such as type two diabetes are becoming an acceptable by-product of our lifestyle choices. There's even a magazine now called DIABETIC LIVING. Type two diabetes is almost always a side effect of a sedentary, overly-processed fast food lifestyle. Rather than control our cravings for fat, animal based foods(where ALL dietary cholesterol comes from) we simply ask our doctor for a pill to lower the cholesterol, never mind the side-effects. We want magic bullets in the form of pills for help in getting to sleep, getting it up, advil for our pain if we dare to exercise.

We watch too much TV, go out and buy what it tells us to buy, (how often do we see close ups of people's mouths on TV taking in vast amounts of food?)then we finally get up off the couch to go out and buy diet pills which is the other side of the ARMS RACE that wizards of capitalism tell us we want to buy via mostly TV.

What would happen if we took this opportunity we have today, with a seemingly sane and intelligent new leadership in Washington, let this be the jumping off place for a whole new way of life. Let's all eat lower on the food chain.( a plant based diet is the healthiest for us AND the animals) Let's buy locally grown products whenever possible, to support our neighbors and local community. Take a little time each day for a long walk, run or bicycle trip. Take a few minutes from each day to participate in our democracy by calling your Congressman and telling him/her what we expect of them, our employee.

Shut off the TV machine (as Rachel calls it) more often. Say no to fast food. Vote with your wallet and your fork. Think about the power we all have every time we make a purchase. What are the ramifications of this purchase? Does it promote child labor abuses? Animal suffering? Does it send money out of the country when a local alternative could have been bought instead?

I know I rambled on off-topic, sorry 'bout that. If you read this far down the rant, then you're one of the good guys, not one of the ones Cyrano is talking about, but a thoughtful DU participant. This has been a test of the thoughtful poster broadcast system. BTW, bush sucks, good riddance, lets take back our country!:toast:

[Warren DeMontague]

176. Ah, in the old days the vegans weren't so preachy.

People turning everything and anything into an excuse to offer fork-lectures is a perfect example of slipping standards.

Oh, I know, your heart is in the right place. Welcome to DU.

[veganlush]

178. the original post was condemning simplistic, short..

posts/replies not the type that I made. By welcoming me to DU, you are apparently coming out in support of slipping standards. The use of the word PREACHY here is meaningless. This is a discussion board. If you don't like preachy, don't go to church and don't read my posts. The term LECTURES doesn't mean much here either. It's like PORK in congress. One senator's job producing bill is pork to everyone else. Veganism/vegetarianism are good ways to address many of the worlds problems. I'm going to express that from time to time here. Maybe you should block me.

[Warren DeMontague]

182. Okay, I take it back.

I don't welcome you to DU. :shrug:

Anyway, I haven't put anyone on ignore, I'm not going to start with you. I just think it's a bit of a stretch to get from "slipping standards on DU" to the holy crusade against meat eating. Believe me, there are plenty of on-topic threads where you can contribute that opinion too. But if you want to try to make that case here, by all means, knock yourself out, guy.

[veganlush]

184. stretch happens.

:hi:

[ifuseekamy]

188. When I first started reading DU posts (before posting myself), I didn't know that

DU began as a reaction to Dubya's selection. The question I pose is: Will DU start eating its own? I mean, now that there is no one to rail at politically (even Congress is Dem-controlled)? Will we finally be able to own up to faults within our own party? Stay tuned...

[saltpoint]

189. Boy, are they ever.

The dishes are piled up 3 or 4 days running, there's two or more layers of dust on the jukebox, and no one's ordered more potato chips.

Also, for the love of God, when is someone going to clean out that gum ball machine in the lobby?