I love DU and I love the people here, but we will never ever win this fight

[Mike 03]

if we are fretting over private jets, who rides the train and who rides the car, and/or CEO bonuses.

These are annoyances, so trivial thatit is almost laughable to contemplate them in scale. Oliver Stone would call them "gnat shit in pepper."

Please. I'm practically begging you. You are all smart, intelligent, thoughtful people.

We need to be concentrating on the big picture.

We only have so many golden arrows in the sack we carry, as my writing teacher used to say.

Who do we shoot them at, and when?

If we can't win this one, we might as well hunker down for the sort of scenario Cormac McCarthy envisions in his Pulitzer Prize winning novel "The Road."

[Berry Cool]

1. Right now, CEO bonuses are not "gnat shit in pepper" to me.

and that's all I'm gonna say about that.

[Phoenix-Risen]

14. That's right,

And unless you live in Wichita and just got laid off from Cessna or Beechcraft Aircraft (large manufacturers of private jets) F them CEO's. They were only high paid American union workers, but F em, maybe the homeless will buy private aircraft.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

2. CEO bonuses, right now, is the big picture

That is emblematic of everything that is wrong in the world, especially when you compare their bonsues to US aid to the sick. They fucked this up and they knew what they were doing when they did it. Yes we will have to bail it out, but we cannot pretend that their values don't matter or what they did doesn't matter. It does.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. They're no longer called "bonuses."

According to KO, they are called - oh, rats, I'm 'way too literate to be able to recall correctly the tortured language - something like "retention awards."

The Big Lie dons a different dress and expects to be treated like a lady when we know she's nothing but an old whore.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. The big stuff

is made of lots of little stuff.

God really is in the details.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Disagree. We win the war by making these crooks famous.

And I do mean crooks, they're rob from the people who they underpay, or who have lost their homes.

They were complicit and they need to pay.

And pressure needs to be constant to shame those who live so large.

And in making them known we bring more voters to our side, hard working white Americans, for example, voted their pocketbook over their bigotry.

Putting the spotlight on these people is helpful, it serves the deeper causes, and we should not back down.

:patriot:

[liberalmuse]

6. The CEO culture is one of the big things wrong with America.

They make WAAAAAAY too much money, and it's obvious they feel that they are entitled to hard working American's tax dollars to buy stupid shit which they use for pleasure, even in a deep recession. Fuck them. This is a great source of anger for me. This shit needs to stop. These people are beyond contempt.

[RiverStone]

12. This is a great source of anger for me too!

Good that we pay attention liberalmuse; let me know if you find any particularly satisfying (or productive) venues for releasing it. :hi:

Well, I do exercise a lot.

[RiverStone]

7. You may have heard the saying...life is 90% perception and 10% reality

Here on DU Mike, we are blessed to be surrounded by many enlightened folks - we 'get it' and share many common values.

And yet, to most of John Q. Public, they see their predicament at utterly helpless and powerless.

While I agree that in the BIG picture, the battle is far more compelling than a greedy CEO; IMO it is critical that We The People who both enjoy DU and who have never heard of it, feel that our country is RE-powering the common citizen. That a CEO is held to the same standard as the rest of us.

It may be symbolic, but once folks feel that the same standard of fairness and equity applies to all, that in turn will initiate a new populist movement which will not only transcend politics - but actually CHANGE our country from the inside out. Small steps all lead to BIG changes.

Of course, I'm an optimist! :hi:

[Donnachaidh]

8. uhh, this *isn't* a war

This *we gotta win* knuckleheaded attitude is what we don't need. This is the sort of childish thing we were told to give up when Obama was elected.

Grownups DO question the motives of people they are dealing with. Grownups DO question how a company can ask for billions of dollars with one hand, and then book a Lear Jet to Vegas with another. THAT is *reality*. And we have every RIGHT to demand answers, and to call them on the carpet for this obscene display of arrogance on the taxpayer's dime.

There is no winner or loser involved, when you are dealing with business, and dealing with a country going over the economic edge.

*Arrows* are for backyard games. Standing up for ourselves and ASKING the hard questions and expecting REAL answers back is how the grown ups do it.

[Orsino]

28. The class war was declared millennia ago.

Good government would suppress the fighting, but we don't have good government.

We can refuse to fight, but they sure as hell are.

[DeepBlueC]

9. we are ready for a paradigm shift

We may be tossing pebbles into a stagnant pool but those pebbles eventually send out ripples that reach the shore.

[Mnemosyne]

10. "The Road" is in production as a film. Viggo a great choice as The Man.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898367/

[WorseBeforeBetter]

11. This is very much part of the big picture.

Has mediocrity and failure always been rewarded in this country?

When did CEOs start making >500x the average worker?

The greed in this country is sickening and now is the perfect time to shoot those arrows. When else?

Obama is calling them out by saying they should be ashamed. He's right -- they should be.

Bring on the revolution.

[timtom]

25. "Has mediocrity and failure always been rewarded in this country?"

You bet your boots.

Marilyn Monroe (whom I have always liked) was, in fact, a mediocre talent, who just happened to exude sexuality in copious amounts.

She was elevated to divine status. Much to her disadvantage. It cost her quality of life and finally, her life.

Elvis Presley (whom I have never had much of an opinion of) was, in fact, a mediocre talent, as well.

He, too, was elevated to the status of divine king. With the same result.

This accounts for the mediocrity aspect. Today's ethical climate has naturally led to the exaltation of failure (viz. George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan).

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

30. Let's go to the way-back machine, before 1950...

and not use pop stars as examples (but I do agree with you as far as mediocrity, and would add Paris and The Ys to the list).

[UTUSN]

13. Um, which is "this fight" that we're talking about?!1 (that we supposedly CAN'T win) n/t

[Avalux]

15. The jets and the bonuses are evidence of a culture of greed -

they are tangibles that influence the way people view corporations and CEOs and fretting over them isn't in vain. All part of the fight.

[tnlefty]

16. When those CEO bonuses were paid prior or after their

receiving my tax dollars in the form of a bailout? Are you kidding me? I don't give a damn about their lifestyles, let them live mine for a while instead of expecting me and my kids to pay for their 'greed is good' and 'everything goes' mentality. I didn't cheat or screw anyone over to attain what I have, but I can't say the same for them.

It's been more reinforced to me that Wall Street and Investment Banks, etc., are synonymous with Vultures and Sewer Rats.

[omega minimo]

17. Dude! you forgot to make your point!!11

whhoooooooooooaaaaa



how is attention to CEO insane greed "fretting"?

[On the Road]

18. You are Correct

in that concentrating on the emotional issue of bonuses may allow other more substantive issues go unheeded.

The first one that comes to mind is a more progressive tax structure. Creating more tiers at the top is much more effective at leveling than effort to control perks. 45% should be doable and go a long way toward reducing the deficit.

The current wealth and income gap started with Reagan's tax cuts. But it also went along with higher and higher pay packets for top executives.

[Occam Bandage]

20. Never underestimate the importance of symbols, nor of scapegoats.

That's all I'll say.

[Berry Cool]

21. Here's my issue.

Across America, there are peons (some who actually spent time and money on earning college degrees so they could get ahead in life and not be TREATED like peons) being told they aren't getting any bonuses this year, either because there isn't any money to go around, or because there is some money to go around but, due to "poor" or "uneven" job performance, they aren't getting any. Because really, they're so bad at what they do, they're lucky the employer hasn't already fired their ass. So they are told.

Meanwhile, these bozos at the banks DROVE THE WORLD ECONOMY INTO THE FRICKING GROUND, and THEY are STILL getting bonuses...or "retention incentives" or whatever kind of 1984 Newspeak they want to call them by today.

And we shouldn't be enraged about this? This is "gnat shit in pepper"?

No, I don't think so. On the contrary, it's the product of a deeply ingrained double standard that absolutely, positively WILL NOT STAND in a country like this one.

We have two sets of workers now in this country...the ones who can be fired or laid off at whim, no matter how they perform...and those who are untouchable, no matter how rotten their performance, who are, in fact, rewarded even as they fail catastrophically and ruin life for the other set.

This is NOT "gnat shit in pepper."

[Lex]

22. How you concentrate on the big picture: work on all the smaller pictures

and it will come together.

[LeftishBrit]

23. The problem is...

that some of these things are relevant to the more crucial issues.

Each CEO bonus on its own might not be a big issue. But in the long run, all these bonuses add up to a lot of money that might go to people who need it, or to improvements in the business/organization that benefit large numbers. Also, they frequently help to reward incompetence and corruption.

Also, if we're helping to pay for the bonuses, it's very bad use of taxpayers' money - and with the banks, we are (in my country as well as yours). If a 'bailout' genuinely helps get the economy back on its feet and prevent a long-term depression, I'm happy to contribute something to it. But not to make some rich (mis)managers even richer.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. Bonuses also encourage a short-term profit mentality in business

Tell people they'll get lots of money for a one-year profit, and that's what they'll work on - ending up with:

bad loan-making that you can palm off on to others

securitization than hides the bodies effectively that the losses a few years later 'just come out of nowhere'

credit default swaps that are just glorified bets on the viability of companies (rather than the 'insurance' for creditors they were originally meant to be)

short selling of financial companies with the hope that the drop in their share prices will cause a panic, and force it down even more, magnifying your profits

and so on.

If bonuses consisted just of "here's a bit of stock of this company - stick with us, help it grow, and it'll be worth more over the years", it wouldn't be so bad.

[Hubert Flottz]

24. I'll tell you a secret about being a good archer...

You need to shoot some practice arrows every day to be a good marksman when hunting season opens. And even after season opens you need to keep shooting those practice arrows every chance you get. Bad archers wound animals and the wounded animals go off to suffer and die a slow painful death that usually serves no practical purpose.

A good archers arrows almost always strike the kill zone and put the animal down with a minimal amount of pain and suffering. The serious archer who loves his sport and who works daily on the archery range to become a proficient shooter, eats far better than the fair weather wanna-be archer practice shoots in the woods at the unlucky animals he stumbles upon and cripples.

[Orsino]

27. These things are the only ones likely to win us anything.

The American public, asleep in front of the TV, cares little for incomprehensible minutiae of legislation. They will be moved only by the exposure of the vast wealth gap between them and the ruling class.

[mmonk]

29. No we can't. It's why probably within two years, I'm going to retire from

political activism to get on with other aspects of my life. I'm going to concentrate on reestablishing Constitutional government the remaining time because that is where the pendulum can be permanently damaged. The problem is we essentially have a three party two party system. The Republican party is to the right and increasingly radical rightwing. The Democratic party is divided into essentially two parties, progressives and neoliberal. The neoliberals have a stronghold on the party due to primarily progressive candidates being eliminated by the media. The media narrows it down every presidential election to rightwing and neoliberal with the progressive movement always the odd one out. Our foreign policy is going to continue a bloody and wasteful path of either aggressive obvious imperialism or NATO led soft but still aggressive (and thus bloody) imperialism. We are to be robbed of any peace dividend that was still possible with the fall of the Berlin wall. Our large and multi national corporations are still going to ultimately have the upper hand in trade, economic, and foreign policy. The best we can hope to do is to try and soften the edges but most of our capital will be spent on trying to extend this system instead of fundamentally concentrating on the citizen.