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MARX on TARP; debunked Marx quote; Authentic Marx Quotes

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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 10:17 AM
Original message
MARX on TARP; debunked Marx quote; Authentic Marx Quotes
Here's an authentic quote from Karl Marx:

"The entire artificial system of forced expansion of the reproduction process cannot, of course, be remedied by having some bank, like the Bank of England, give to all the swindlers the deficient capital by means of its paper and having it buy up all the depreciated commodities at their old nominal values..."

(see entire paragraph below)

***

Recently there was a wildly popular and widely posted "quote" from Karl Marx's 1897 "Das Kapital":

"Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalized…"

This turned out to be a fabricated quote, not really in the writing of Karl Marx.

However, while searching (in vain) for this quote, I did come across a several real, verified quotes from Marx's writings that seem quite applicable to our current situation:

A FEW AUTHENTIC MARX QUOTES:

***

"The chain of payment obligations due at specific dates is broken in a hundred places. The confusion is augmented by the attendant collapse of the credit system, which develops simultaneously with capital, and leads to violent and acute crises, to sudden and forcible depreciations, to the actual stagnation and disruption of the process of production…"

***

While formerly a builder had perhaps three or four houses building at a time for speculation, he must now buy a large plot of ground (which in continental language means rent it for ninety-nine years, as a rule), build from 100 to 200 houses on it, and thus embark on an enterprise which exceeds his resources twenty to fifty times. The funds are procured through mortgaging and the money is placed at the disposal of the contractor as the buildings proceed. Then, if a crisis comes along and interrupts the payment of the advance installments, the entire enterprise generally collapses..."

***

"In a system of production, where the entire continuity of the reproduction process rests upon credit, a crisis must obviously occur — a tremendous rush for means of payment — when credit suddenly ceases and only cash payments have validity. At first glance, therefore, the whole crisis seems to be merely a credit and money crisis. And in fact it is only a question of the convertibility of bills of exchange into money. But the majority of these bills represent actual sales and purchases, whose extension far beyond the needs of society is, after all, the basis of the whole crisis. At the same time, an enormous quantity of these bills of exchange represents plain swindle, which now reaches the light of day and collapses; furthermore, unsuccessful speculation with the capital of other people; finally, commodity-capital which has depreciated or is completely unsaleable, or returns that can never more be realized again. The entire artificial system of forced expansion of the reproduction process cannot, of course, be remedied by having some bank, like the Bank of England, give to all the swindlers the deficient capital by means of its paper and having it buy up all the depreciated commodities at their old nominal values…

***

RE the above quote, TARP? Did anyone say TARP?

***

"It should be noted in regard to imports and exports, that, one after another, all countries become involved in a crisis and that it then becomes evident that all of them, with few exceptions, have exported and imported too much, so that they all have an unfavorable balance of payments. The trouble, therefore, does not actually lie with the balance of payments. For example, England suffers from a drain of gold. It has imported too much. But at the same time all other countries are over-supplied with English goods. They have thus also imported too much, or have been made to import too much. (There is, indeed, a difference between a country which exports on credit and those which export little or nothing on credit. But the latter then import on credit; and this is only then not the case when commodities are sent to them on consignment.) The crisis may first break out in England, the country which advances most of the credit and takes the least, because the balance of payments, the balance of payments due, which must be settled immediately, is unfavorable, even though the general balance of trade is favorable. This is explained partly as a result of the credit which it has granted, and partly as a result of the huge quantity of capital loaned to foreign countries, so that a large quantity of returns flow back to it in commodities, in addition to the actual trade returns. (However, the crisis has at times first broken out in America, which takes most of the commercial and capital credit from England.) The crash in England, initiated and accompanied by a gold drain, settles England’s balance of payments, partly by a bankruptcy of its importers (about which more below), partly by disposing of a portion of its commodity-capital at low prices abroad, and partly by the sale of foreign securities, the purchase of English securities, etc. Now comes the turn of some other country. The balance of payments was momentarily in its favor; but now the time lapse normally existing between the balance of payments and balance of trade has been eliminated or at least reduced by the crisis: all payments are now suddenly supposed to be made at once. The same thing is now repeated here. England now has a return flow of gold, the other country a gold drain. What appears in one country as excessive imports, appears in the other as excessive exports, and vice versa. But over-imports and over-exports have taken place in all countries (we are not speaking here about crop failures, etc., but about a general crisis); that is over-production promoted by credit and the general inflation of prices that goes with it."

****

I'm sure there are many, many more writings of Marx that would seem to describe our current global financial crisis. While I'm not saying Marx had THE answer, or even AN answer to a stable, functional, just economic system, I do believe he had very good understanding of the injustices, weaknesses, and the inherent instability of the currently orthodox globalized market/capitalist system.

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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good for ya.

Marx had a fine understanding of Capitalism, which is why he hate it.

Marx did describe the alternative and successor to Capitalism, and for that sin he has been hated and lied about for 150 years by the Capitalists and their dupes and fixers.
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. Fake Marx quote: the tip-off?
A guy in 1867 saying "technology" or "nationalize"...

(Not 1897, btw.)

Thanks for digging up the real quotes. Marx got quite a few things right, IMO -- mainly noticing how bizarre it is to make money with money, rather than earning it through productive effort. Unearned income, if you will. I think he got a little distracted, though, with characterizing capitalism as employer class vs. employee class -- not that that isn't an important discussion to keep having.

I think the essence of capitalism is the practice of lending money at interest (formerly known as "usury"). Making money with money. Wherever you have capitalism, you have lending at interest; wherever you don't have lending at interest, you don't have capitalism.

That's the key trait. Certainly, there are others -- for example, an extensive system of rationalizing and justifying the legitimacy of unearned income -- but renting out money is the definitive activity.



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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Capitalism is more than usury; dehumanization and Contract of Adhesion
Usury is certainly one of the most nefarious aspects of capitalism, but I don't think it's essence.

A big factor is the making of a human being's time into a commodity which is purchased as needed. For the laborer (employee), wages are critical to survival and for caring for a family; for the capitalist (owner), wages are just another "cost" along with materials, utilities, office furniture, etc.

Wages and other costs are things that reduce the bottom line profit. So you want to procure them as cheap as possible and find any possible way to reduce that cost. In the bean-counter world of the capitalist, trashing somebody's life by moving them from full-time to part-time employment is in the same category as turning off the lights when you leave the room to save on electricity.

And there is a powerful element of economic coercion involved in the owner/employer/capitalist - laborer/employee relationship. Free Marketeers often say, "well, nobody HAS to work anywhere, you are free to find another job". The reality is that for a person living paycheck to paychek or someone who is out of work, there is a compelling urgency to retain procure employment - missing a week's pay could mean complete ruin. In contrast, for the business owner, having one open position for weeks or months might reduce the bottom line a bit (while also reducing cost) but it's no big deal.

This situation - so called "right to work" is plainly an example of a contract of adhesion.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 11:49 AM
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3. Fuck Marx.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick
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