$87 billion for Medicaid

[proud2BlibKansan]

I dare any selfish right wing lurker to call that pork.

$130 billion for education. I dare you to call that pork too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

1. knr

:thumbsup:

[thunder rising]

2. You don't get it ... we only spend money on death machines and mercenaries

The allocations you refer to are not so much pork but obviously socialistic in nature
:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Long live socialism!

I guarantee you we would all be happier if we had true socialism :)

[exboyfil]

3. The Medicaid is a stop gap measure why we work towards

some sort of Universal Health Care with a funding source. I would propose 8%/8% tax structure instead of the current Medicare tax structure. If the Germans can do it with 16% then we should be able to as well.

The biggest issue with Medicaid, and it will continue to grow, is Title 19 Nursing Home. The cost of Nursing Home care is very high ($70,000/yr for my grandmother). In the end a whole bunch of us are going to be drawing that amount out of the system. Think 3-5 years for a normal stay, and you have much more money than any normal person can save in a lifetime.

I guess the problem I have with federal education funding is that I see it as a local/state function. I am not sure what is in the package, but are we saying that we want to nationalize the responsibility for education along with everything else? Once the federal government steps in will it ever leave or are we going to just need to tax more with a portion of that additional money being siphoned off to do whatever they do in Washington.

I thought the idea of a one time lets take care of poor districts school buildings as both a stimulus and something that needs to be done, was a better solution. The problem would be, even with that approach, that immediately we are going to have school administrations looking to build very expensive gee whiz types of schools without concentrating on the true functional requirements of the schools. Also, on a long term basis, every state has to figure out how to handle education funding - it is not the obligation of the federal government.

Why do people think that just because these funds go thru Washington they immediately multiply like George Bailly's two dollars in the vault. Ultimately every dollar comes from the U.S. tax payer (either today or in the future). Except for printing presses and tariffs, the state governments have access to every funding source that the Federal government has.

I would like to see a trade off between the Pell dollars and some sort of national prepaid tuition plan. I see the additional federal dollars continuing to drive University costs to the point where the people who pay the taxes but can't get any sort of money for assistance are squeezed out of an education. The nice thing about prepaid tuition is that it encourages schools/state funding to hold the line on tuition increases while also encouraging families to save towards their own education. Right now those with battered 529s and little hope of any savings vehicle even remotely keeping up with education inflation are beginning to get demoralized. This is not a good thing. A state university president is talking about raising tuition 25% to set aside more need based funding.

These Pell dollars are flowing now. What happens next year and the year after or when my oldest is ready for college (2014)?

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. When your oldest is ready for college you need to hope we have more affordable loans

My kids are past that age now and we were on our own for college tuition. Yours will undoubtedly be better off. :)

I hear you about Medicaid and Medicare. Part of the expense though (too much of the expense) is administrative. And those damn health insurance cos keep driving the costs up. My hope is that the govt is able to reduce that portion of the cost. We need to stop making health care a for profit industry!

As for education, the feds keep too much and not enough funding trickles down to the school level. Even though the Title I budget at the federal level has increased just about every year, my school gets less than we did 10 years ago. Lots less. I mentioned this to my right wing senator's aide and had exact figures to share with her, since I am on my local site budget committee that decides how to spend the money. I was amazed when she told me I was one of "many" teachers who have contacted our senator's office to complain about reductions in Title I funding and he was considering an investigation. So I was thrilled to hear that and will be following up to see if he really does investigate. There has been a problem somewhere along the line with Title I funds for too many years now and it is infuriating since those funds are for kids, not for bureaucrats.

I support increased Pell Grants. I finished college on a Pell Grant and it made the difference between a degree or no degree for me. So I have a personal bias. But along with Pell Grants we need more AFFORDABLE student loans. When I finished college I was able to work off my loans by teaching. But if I had not taught the payments were $15 a month. That was 30 years ago and would be like $50 a month payments today. Instead these kids are making car payment sized loan payments. That is nuts and excludes too many of our kids from college. So I support lowering interest rates and restoring some of the same programs that allowed me to serve my community and work off the balance. We need teachers and nurses so those are 2 areas that would benefit from such loans.

If we really want to stimulate the economy by creating jobs, making college more affordable would be a good place to start.

[exboyfil]

12. Student loans are not the answer

When I came out of school in 1985 I have $7400 in student loans. I was able to easily pay them off in a few years (probably about five years) because I had an engineering job starting out making 3x this amount. That $7400 represented about 35% of my overall out of state education to Purdue University (room and board and tuition). The rest was covered by scholarships (35%) and assistance - later repaid - by my parents (30%). Work covered the other expenses (travel, books, etc). At the time I thought the loans were a bad deal because of the upfront origination costs, but I was glad to have them.

That same education (which cost around $20K for R/B and tuition costs for four years in 1985 now costs $124K for an out of stater - over 6 times as much). The CPI has only grown by 2.2x in that time period (as has engineering starting salaries). Even kicking it down to in state tuition we still have $62K - over 3 times. An equivalent break down now would be $22K loan, $22K scholarship, and $19K parents. Today I could swing the $19K x 2 kids (I would like to make it $30K/kid), but if tuition keeps growing at 2 to 3 times CPI no way that I am going to be able to keep up. Even today I would be asking my kids to come up with $44K in loans and scholarships. Scholarships are a whole lot more competitive than when I was in school (especially against state tuition). I can easily see my kids coming out of school with $44K in loans today, and, unless they decide on a high payback major (engineering, actuarial science, accounting etc) - they will have difficulty servicing this debt. In 10 years when my youngest comes out with tuition growing at 3 times CPI - who knows?

We need to get public university expenses under control.

My oldest would like to go to Vet school, but that is not going to happen unless she gets a full ride as an undergraduate or gets the military to pay for Vet school.

[hfojvt]

14. funds coming from Washington is a more progressive source

it's harder for states to impose progressive taxes, too easy for richer people to jump across a state border, although I still think some states ought to try it.

[exboyfil]

16. Good point about progressive taxes but how long

until Atlas Shrugs. State borders are nothing, but national borders are quickly becoming less important as well. I can see lots of occupations which can be done in a tax haven in the Caribbean. That is why I think 70% top marginal federal tax rate is a non-starter in spite of lots of opinions to the contrary on the board. I think somewhere in the 40-50% is doable and will have positive revenue returns.

This brings up the whole fairness issue related to taxes. Currently a couple with two children have to earn over $41,000/yr ($38,000/yr take home after S.S.) before they pay one dime of Federal income tax (this assumes a standard deduction). Granted they have paid payroll taxes for Social Security, but the payback on that in the form of life insurance (through Survivor's benefits), disability insurance, and an inflation adjusted retirement annuity is tremendous. If that couple has employer provided health insurance, then they should be doing pretty well in most parts of the country. If they have to pony up $6-$12K for health insurance, then not so well.

[Lasher]

4. Bush and his Bush league lapdog GOP Congress cut Medicaid

to help pay for their tax cuts for rich people. Literally taking from the poor to give to the rich. :mad:

Good on Obama and the Democrats!

[fishnfla]

7. that is so cool, my job is safe

I dont mind paying my taxes, it comes back to me& I provide a valuable service

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. For the record, here are a few of the items in the stimulus package

that left the GOP so greatly offended, per BusinessWeek.com:

$30 billion for a smart power grid, advanced battery technology, and energy
efficiency measures.
$20 billion in tax incentives for renewable energy and energy efficiency over
the next 10 years.

Tax credits for families that purchase plug-in hybrid vehicles of up to $7,500.

$5 billion to improve the energy efficiency of more than 1 million homes.

$6.3 billion for increasing energy efficiency in federally supported housing
programs.

$3 billion for the National Science Foundation for basic research in fundamental
science and engineering.
$1.6 billion for the Energy Dept.'s Office of Science, which funds research
in such areas as climate science, biofuels, high-energy physics, nuclear physics,
and fusion energy sciences
.
$8.5 billion for the National Institutes of Health, including expanding good
jobs in biomedical research to study diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's,
cancer, and heart disease.

$7 billion for extending broadband services to underserved communities.

$87 billion over the next two years in additional federal matching funds to
help states maintain Medicaid programs.

$53.6 billion for a State Fiscal Stabilization Fund-$40.6 billion to local
school districts, which can be used for preventing cutbacks, preventing layoffs,
school modernization, and other purposes; $5 billion as bonus grants for meeting
key performance measures; and $8 billion for public safety and other services.

Higher education tax credit increased to a maximum of $2,500, and makes it
available to nearly 4 million low-income students by making it partially refundable

Increases the maximum Pell Grant by $500, for a maximum of $5,350 in 2009
and $5,550 in 2010.

$200 million added to the College Work-Study Program.

$1.1 billion for Early Head Start.

$1 billion for Head Start.

$2 billion for the Child Care Development Block Grant to provide child care
services to an additional 300,000 children in low-income families while their
parents go to work.

$13 billion for Title I grants to help disadvantaged kids reach high academic
standards.

$12.2 billion for special education grants.

$29 billion for modernizing roads and bridges.

$18 billion for clean water, flood control, and environmental restoration investments.

$5 billion for improvements in Defense Dept. facilities.

Child tax credit expanded to allow families to begin qualifying for the child
tax credit with every dollar earned over $3,000.

Earned Income Tax Credit expanded by providing tax relief to families with
three or more children and increasing marriage penalty relief.

New, partially refundable $2,500 tax credit for families.

Temporarily suspends taxation of some unemployment benefits.

Tax credits for hiring recently discharged unemployed veterans and youth that
have been out of work and out of school for the six months prior to hire.
New bond-financing program for school construction, rehabilitation, and repair.

Increases unemployment benefits for 20 million jobless workers by $25 per
week.

Increases food stamp benefits by 13%.

$100 million for Emergency Food & Shelter to help local community organizations
provide food and shelter; $100 million for formula grants to states for elderly
nutrition services including Meals on Wheels; and $150 million for the Emergency
Food Assistance Program to purchase commodities for food banks to refill emptying
shelves.

$4 billion for job training including formula grants for adult job training,
dislocated worker job training, and youth services (including funding for summer
jobs for young people).

$500 million for Vocational Rehabilitation State Grants to help persons with
disabilities.

$500 million to match unemployed individuals to job openings.

$120 million to provide community service jobs to an additional 24,000 low-income
older Americans.

Payment of $250 to Social Security beneficiaries, as well as veterans receiving
disability compensation and pension benefits from the Veterans Affairs.

http://www.truthout.org/021309A

[exboyfil]

22. The nice thing about GOPs refusal to go along is that,

if it works, then they will implode as a party.

What I would like are folks actually paying attention to how the money is being spent and ensuring that it is not wasted (folks like Harry Truman in World War II with the defense budget before he became Vice President).

Since so much of this bill is participation in ongoing activities, will the Federal government be able to eventually decouple from participation or is an additional $400B spending going to be an annual thing on top of our regular budget. If so then we better start gearing up the additional revenue sources.

[MercutioATC]

9. It's "pork" in this bill.

Both are valuable, but this was supposed to be an emergency stimulus bill. Neither Medicaid nor education have a significant short-term stimulative effect.

You know when DUers have complained in the past about Repubs inserting riders on legislation that had nothing to do with the original bill? That's what the Dems did here. They turned an emergency stimulus bill into a general spending bill...and that's part of what's wrong with Congress.

To clarify, I don't disagree with most of the spending in this bill, but I think it's a travesty that it's in THIS bill.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. I disagree

I lobbied in DC for this bill and my union did a great job of training us before we lobbied.

School districts all over the country are laying off teachers NOW. They needed money to save jobs.

Hospitals are closing. They needed money NOW to save jobs.

So yes, money on education and health care does indeed create and save jobs and thus, stimulate our economy.

[MercutioATC]

11. Yes, but so would handing out rubber chickens.

Obviously, ANY government spending is going to provide some stimulus. The question is if spending on, say, the arts is as effective as spending on infrastructure.

[BlooInBloo]

13. So it's "pork" if it isn't the BEST POSSIBLE stimulus?

An odd definition, and one which nobody (but you) uses.

[SoCalDem]

15. It's "pork" if it's for "someone else"...and it always pisses me off

when it's the republicans who holler pork, when they are the PORKIEST ones in congress, having been in control for so many years..
I wish each state got block-grants of cash to do with as THEY saw fit, and that NO senator/congress person could allocate anything particular to any state..

[MercutioATC]

19. In an emergency stimulus bill? Yes.

Many of these things are worthwhile programs, but they don't belong in an emergency stimulus bill.

[Telly Savalas]

21. States are facing massive budget shortfalls.

Funding Medicaid and education falls under their purview, but due to the recession they are having serious problems meeting their obligations. Allowing a scenario where state governments can't operate effectively undermines the goals of an economic stimulus.

[NNN0LHI]

17. Extended unemployment is in the bill. Isn't that pork by your definition too?

Lets get to the bottom of this.

Don

[DeltaLitProf]

18. The name of the bill indicates it was not written to be only stimulus

It was about putting money into priorities the American people voted for by electing Obama.

[MercutioATC]

20. Possibly, but it's being pushed as an emergency stimulus bill...

Expedited timetable, no time to actually READ the whole bill before voting...