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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:01 PM
Original message
What we Should Learn from the Tragic Mistakes of Herbert Hoover
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 11:02 PM by Time for change
The current debate between Democrats and Republicans on how to handle our worst economic crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s is reminiscent of the debate between Franklin Delano Roosevelt and incumbent President Herbert Hoover, in the 1932 presidential campaign.

Few historians would say that Hoover caused the Great Depression. His failure was in his adamant reluctance to take the appropriate steps to resolve or ameliorate it. He was stuck in the Republican ideology of his day. That is an ideology that has persisted to this day, though for 48 years, from the onset of the FDR presidency in 1933 until the onset of the Reagan presidency in 1981 it was submerged beneath the surface. The reason that it was submerged during that period of time was the unprecedented success of the 12-year FDR presidency, which brought us out of the Great Depression and whose programs led to what Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman calls the “greatest sustained economic boom in U.S. history”.

Even Republican presidents during this period of time had to go along with most of the FDR programs. President Eisenhower explained why, in a letter to his brother:

Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are…. a few Texas oil millionaires… Their number is negligible and they are stupid.

But with the onset of the Reagan Revolution in 1981, things began to change radically for the worse. Herbert Hoover’s tragic mishandling of the Great Depression had ended 48 years in the past, so few Americans remembered the tragedy of the Hoover presidency or how FDR’s New Deal pulled us out of it. Ronald Reagan brought back the failed right wing economic ideology of the pre-New Deal Republican Party.

The result, with an 8-year respite during the Clinton administration, has been increasing poverty, a declining middle class with runaway economic inequality, and ballooning national debt, culminating in our current economic crisis. During this time, even President Clinton had to pay homage to failed Republican ideology by proclaiming “The era of big government is over”.

Now our nation and President Obama are faced with a problem similar to the one we encountered in 1933. The American voters have rejected right wing anti-government ideology, electing both a Democratic President and Congress. But in their attempts to get our nation back on the road to economic recovery, they are faced with intense Republican opposition. In 1933, perhaps that opposition was somewhat understandable, since we had little historic precedent to learn from. Today we have the lessons of pre-New Deal Republican ideology, represented in Herbert Hoover’s failed policies, to learn from. If we fail to make use of that historical lesson we will pay dearly for it.


The failed ideology of the pre-New Deal Republican Party, manifested by President Hoover

James Barber explains the problem with Herbert Hoover’s ideology, attitude, and approach to policy in his book, “The Presidential Character”. That ideology, attitude and approach can be summed up with one short sentence: Government has little or no direct role to play in alleviating the economic problems of ordinary Americans. Barber describes how that played out in 1930, shortly after the Stock Market crash of 1929 that set off the Great Depression:

In the summer of 1930, a severe drought hit the Southwest; the Secretary of Agriculture called it the worst in our history and recommended a relief fund of $25 million. Congress preferred a bill authorizing $60 million, to which the President responded “prosperity cannot be restored by raids on the public treasury” or by “playing politics with human misery.” Millions of farmers went bankrupt… The President pressed forward a plan to provide loans… but not direct relief, not cash to the hungry, not the dreaded “dole.” … The President and his Congressional allies fought off proposals to “put a man on a basis of equality with a mule” by providing food for the hungry farmers…

In the fall of 1930, he appointed an Emergency Committee for employment, its work to be guided by the principle that unemployment was strictly a local responsibility. The Committee’s chairman drafted a message for the President to submit to Congress calling for public works, slum clearance, low-cost housing, and rural electrification. The Committee also favored… public works planning and a national employment service. The President rejected both. The chairman resigned…

Hoover made absolutely clear his adamant aversion to federal government action to help ordinary Americans in his December 1930 message to Congress:

Economic depression can not be cured by legislative action or executive pronouncement. Economic wounds must be healed by the action of… the producers and consumers themselves… requires that every individual should sustain faith and courage; that each should maintain his self-reliance… that the vast majority whose income is unimpaired should… seek to assist his neighbors who may be less fortunate; that each industry should assist its own employees; that each community and each State should assume its full responsibilities…

In other words, the economic health of our country is the responsibility of business, industry, ourselves, our neighbors, our communities – anything but the federal government.


The roots of right wing Republican anti-government ideology

At the root of right wing Republican anti-government ideology is the same problem that has plagued mankind since the beginning of human history: Class warfare. Those with wealth and power trying to do everything they can to keep everyone else down, so that their own wealth and status is certain to be preserved. Therefore, the status quo must be maintained at all cost.

I don’t claim that President Hoover’s own personal motives were malevolent. There is much evidence, beyond the scope of this post, that he did have concern for the American people. Unlike George W. Bush, he worked very hard to find a way out of our economic difficulties. But he was incapable of shedding the right wing ideology that caused the problem in the first place and that obstructed its solution.

James Barber describes in his book what was at the root of this toxic right wing ideology:

In the fall of 1930, Pennsylvania Governor-elect Gifford Pinchot protested that the time for “gentle bedside language” had passed. “Industry and business are not giving men the chance to work. Nor are they feeding the unemployed…” And then he said what was so rarely brought forth in these debates: opposition to federal relief came from “fear lest the taxation to provide that relief be levied on concentrated wealth – fear lest the policy of years, the policy of shielding the big fortunes at the expense of the little ones, should at long last be tossed into the discard.” At the same time that Congressmen and Governors were pleading for a few more millions in federal relief, Hoover’s Reconstruction Finance Corporation, operating in secret… was disbursing millions of dollars a day in loans to business… A Congressman noted that “President Hoover has given an outright dole to the railroads. He would give a dole to the building and loan associations. He would come to the aid of banks with frozen assets… but to starving American women and children he wouldn’t give a red cent…

It is important to note that FDR – the man who brought us out of the Great Depression – exhibited just the opposite attitude towards this subject. In his speech at the 1936 Democratic National Convention, in which he explained the rationale for his New Deal, he also discussed the class warfare that made the New Deal necessary:

Out of this modern civilization economic royalists carved new dynasties. New kingdoms were built upon concentration of control over material things. Through new uses of corporations, banks and securities, new machinery of industry and agriculture, of labor and capital … the whole structure of modern life was impressed into this royal service. There was no place among this royalty for our many thousands of small business men and merchants who sought to make a worthy use of the American system of initiative and profit. They were no more free than the worker or the farmer…

The privileged princes of these new economic dynasties, thirsting for power, reached out for control over Government itself. They created a new despotism and wrapped it in the robes of legal sanction. In its service new mercenaries sought to regiment the people, their labor, and their property…. The savings of the average family – other people's money – these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.


The ideology and goals of the current Republican Party

The ideology and goals of the current Republican Party are pretty much identical to those of the Republican Party that brought us the Great Depression and kept us there until the American voters voted them out of office. The whole story of American economic history, from the Stock Market Crash of October 1929 (First bar – economic inequality at peak high), to the Great Depression, to the New Deal that brought us out of the Great Depression, through the “greatest sustained economic boom in U.S. history” (when economic inequality was at sustained low levels), to the Reagan Revolution of 1981 (Begins with second bar, followed by a precipitous rise in economic inequality, with a brief respite during the Clinton boom of the late 1990s), to the present (Third bar – economic inequality at new record high), can be summed up in one chart that depicts economic inequality throughout those many decades. This chart plots income inequality in the United States over time, as calculated by the ratio between the average income of the top 0.01% of U.S. families and the bottom 90%:



It can be thought of as two bookends, represented by the first and third bars in the graph, and characterized by extreme income inequality. Both are the result of extreme right wing ideology that favors the wealthy few over the vast majority of the American people. The Republican Party wants to keep our country at that level of income inequality because it benefits them and their constituency who provides them the money to keep them in power, and because it fits their ideology. The American people need to become familiar enough with their nation’s history to adamantly reject that ideology and thereby set our nation back on the road to long lasting economic health – for all of us.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's going to be a hard road to follow -
especially since it's not just the Republicans bucking this, it's anyone who has a vested interest in keeping the status quo - and that number includes many Democrats who have profited greatly from the climate prior to the meltdown. Fighting two wars and possibly an upcoming third has kept the defense business gluten with cash and the money being made by those who control the flow of oil is just disgusting - who is going to challenge those who hold all the cards? I don't see it happening anytime soon, the Bank Execs have proven the hubris of those "privileged princes" by giving themselves the big bonus' after the first chunk of money was doled out.

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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. A HISTORY OF RECESSION IN THE UNITED STATES 1950 TO 2008




written by: mike kohr 2/12/2008



There is a pattern here that is plain to all but the most partisan. Ten of the last eleven recessions have occurred under the direction of Republican economic policy. And history does repeat itself. Look at the three greatest slowdowns in US economic history, 1929, 1982, 2008, all three were attributed to poor economic and tight credit policy, all three featured deregulation and lack of oversight of the financial markets, and all three were presided over by a Republican President.



Recession/Depression of 2008 George W. Bush (R) greatest downturn since 1929, blamed on lack of regulation of financial markets and collapse of credit markets

Recession of 2001 George W. Bush (R) began in April of 2001, -marked the beginning of greatest deficit spending in all of recorded human history-

Recession of 1990-1991 George H.W. Bush (R) Deregulation of Savings and Loan industry led to a collapse and panic, which led to election of Bill Clinton, who produced the greatest increase in jobs and wealth in all of recorded human history.

Recession of 1981-1982 Ronald Reagan (R) At the time, the most severe contraction of economy since the Great Depression, massive deficit spending/deregulation of

markets, and tight fiscal policy in an effort to kill inflation were blamed for this downturn. *

Recession of 1980 2nd & 3rd quarters Jimmy Carter (D) shortest and least severe slow down, generally attributed to Iranian Revolution and increase in oil prices, -led to the election of Ronald Reagan-.

Recession of 1973-1975 Richard M Nixon (R) OPEC's increase in oil prices and massive spending in the escalation of war in Vietnam led to stagflation, the second economic crash of Nixon's administration.

Recession of 1969-1970 Richard M. Nixon (R) credited to Nixon's escalation of and massive spending in Vietnam War and OPEC's increase in price of oil

Recession of 1960 -1961 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R) noted for high unemployment, low GDP, high inflation. JFK ended the recession by stimulating the economy 10 days after taking office

Recession of 1957-1958 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R) Eisenhower achieved the dubious distinction of achieving a second economic downturn on his watch, a record later matched by Richard M. Nixon, and George W. Bush.

Recession of 1953 Dwight D. Eisenhower (R) Increased outlays to National defense and restrictive credit policies blamed for this downturn



-The Standard of Economic Downturns in America Remains-

The Great Depression of 1929 Herbert Hoover (R) -lasted for 10 years- Blamed on Hoover's economic policy and lack of regulation of financial markets

* “The Reagan Recession” which ran from the 4th quarter of 1981 thru the 1st quarter of 1982 is often categorized as starting under Carter’s watch during the 2nd & 3rd quarters of 1980. By the end of the 3rd quarter of 1980 that brief recession had rebounded. Starting in the 4th quarter of 1980, 3 of the next 4 quarters produced increased GDP. Reagan’s tight fiscal policy and massive deficit spending contracted the economy again in late 1981, producing unemployment of 10.8% and prime interest rates that hovered between 15% and 20.5%.



http://recession.org/history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/rec1980.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United_States#Deregulation:_1974.E2.80.931992



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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. This is a great post on a great thread.
Thank you for this analysis. I think it deserves its own thread, BTW.
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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Jackpine Radical?
Are you from da UP eh? Love the Yooper's. Best band since the Beatles.

I'm a FIB from North-central Illinois!

mike kohr
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Yah, not hardly no yooper, eh. Nordern Wisconsin.
Purdy much da same culchur from da yoopee troo Wisconsin an up troo da Nort Shore an da Iron Range. Some places a few more Finlanders, udder places got more Norskies och Svenskers, but day're all jackpine savages an stumpjumpers.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Thank you for this compilation
I'd like to see something like this made into a book -- Maybe there is one, but I haven't seen it yet.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. This post REALLY REALLY needs to be posted as an OP!!!!
Excellent compilation! Thank you so much for the work you put into it!

:yourock:

sw
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. Thank you for you analysis
:thumbsup: :kick:
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting!
FDR: What a delightful valentine Time for Change has given us!
ER: Yes - isn't that Time for Change just grand!
FDR: Indeed TFC is!
ER: Really, dear, I can't help but almost feel sorry for people who don't understand that the Great Depression was a political problem as much as it was an economic one.
FDR: Well, don't feel sorry for them!
ER: I said 'almost'!
FDR: Well, Hoover himself said it, "The only thing wrong with Capitalism is capitalists, they're just too greedy!"
ER: Sounds like Ghandi's comment about Christianity and Christians!
FDR: I'm not going to touch that one! Hop in, let's go to the Toddle House!
ER: Move over, it's MY car!


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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Okay everyone please, this is an article that deserves K&R! nt
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. I appreciate the compliment and the help.
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 07:02 AM by Time for change
Thank you :)
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. serious lack of F-Bombs in the OP
Just Kidding! Very good reading! Kicked and recommended.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. And he failed to use all caps in the subject line.
:evilgrin:

Without F bombs and all caps...hard to make the recommended page.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. THIS IS THE FUCKEN GREATEST THREAD I'VE SEEN ALL WEEK!
Next problem.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Thank you JR ... I mean
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 02:01 PM by Time for change
FUCKEN THANK YOU!! :P
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Your OPs are always exceptional. This is among the best of them, and I'm glad
that a little flurry of recognition has surfaced.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
Good job.

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. He just didn't know any better
and economics wasn't all that developed and studied then.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. "A few Texas oil millionares" Prophetic words fro Ike. n/t
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crazylikafox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. "Their number is negligible and they are stupid"
and their name is Bush.....

Can we have Ike back?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
37. And a lesson in the consequences of ignoring a cancer. n/t
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R'd. Pls help spread this msg.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
10. well done, time
Very well written, and the analysis is excellent.

During Reagan's time, few Republicans dared criticize the New Deal. Now the New Deal is under all-out assault from the right wing, as many younger people do not understand what it was about and may be susceptible to the lies. It is important to pass the torch. The younger generation is going to learn the same lessons that our grandparents did, one way or another, but the sooner it happens the less pain there will be.

k and r
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Thank you
Hopefully younger Americans can learn the lessons that our grandparents did without having to actually live through a major depression. We have to do a much better job than we do of teaching history to our children.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think this may be the best OP I've ever read at Democratic Underground.
It should become a permanent post of some kind--our manifesto, our flag, our rallying cry.

I would only add one thing: The new plutocracy has not just been cemented into place with vast, mind-boggling, unprecedented amounts of wealth stolen from the public treasury and from the wages, benefits, pensions, productive labor and common infrastructure of our people; and it has not been cemented into place merely by six fatcat, rightwing CEOs who control all news/opinion in the country; and it has not been cemented into place by these things and by our filthy campaign contribution system; nor merely by these accumulations of outrageous power, plus war profiteering, outsourcing of our manufacturing capability to the cheapest labor markets abroad, and other malfeasance and treason; it has been finally--and perhaps fatally-cemented into place by electronic voting machines, fast-tracked all over the country, during the 2002 to 2004 period, run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by a handful of rightwing, Bushite corporations. Thus, if Barack Obama is comparable to FDR--and that is a possibility, but has not yet been demonstrated--this unprecedented, private, secret power over the counting of our votes means that they likely significantly and fraudulently shaved his mandate, and shackled him with Pukes and "Blue Dogs" in Congress, to set him up for failure, and can easily--EASILY!--Diebold him out of office in 2012. This won't be four terms of "New Deal"; but rather one term of disaster, civil disorder and collapse, to be followed by the installation of an even worse regime than the Bush Junta.

Those who rule over us now have that capability. Could this be their plan?

That is the fatal weakness I see in our country that did not exist before. We have lost control of our voting system, and thus, of our very democracy. Although I believe that Barack Obama was elected (by far more votes than we know), it is nevertheless true that he cannot prove that he really was; nor can any member of Congress or any other public official, for that matter. I suspect that half the members of Congress were NOT really elected, but rather Diebolded into office to protect the interests of the rich and the corporate. And these days that includes not just our own "robber barons" but also the multi-billionaire sheiks of araby, the Chinese and other foreign and multi-national powers.

Can we insure that our new FDR--if that is who Obama is--won't be Diebolded out of office? We cannot. 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting can be used as a subtle power--for instance, to shape a corporate Congress that appears to be Democratic--or it can be used as a bludgeon, as it was in 2004, to reverse the outcome of the presidential election, while the people of this country stand helplessly by, as the corpo/fascist 'news' monopolies tell them who 'won.'

We must--we simply MUST--restore transparent voting counting. We have NO verifiability in half the voting systems in the country--zero, zilch--no paper trail at all; and, in the rest, we may have a paper ballot but 99% of those never see the light of day; there is only a 1% audit, not nearly sufficient in a 'TRADE SECRET' code system.*

This is the final nail in this country's coffin, if we do not find the way to reverse it. And don't expect Congress to do it (and do beware of their further meddling with the election system). It will need a massive, grass roots, citizen movement at the state/local level, where ordinary people still have some influence, and where the eyes and ears exist to monitor vote counting.

---------------

*(A 10% audit is the bare minimum needed to detect fraud in electronic voting systems. Venezuela does a whopping 55% audit, and they use OPEN SOURCE CODE programming--code that anyone may review.)

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. Thank you very much Peace Patriot
I definitely share your concern about our ridiculous voting system. I don't know what it will take to get our President and Congress to take it more seriously. As you may know, there was probably another significant exit poll discrepancy in the 2008 presidential election, although probably not as great as in 2004. Again, it favored the Republcian candidate. Maybe the reason that it was less than in 2004 was because of increased awareness of the problem and surveillance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4389007

This has to be fixed.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. the stupids
hhave taken over the republican party
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
14. great post but
are you forgetting about our blue dog/right wing/corporate owned Democrats in this equation? Because we have a lot of them in congress and perhaps the white house.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
15. status quo must be maintained at all cost

Exactly.

That's what they are doing in Washington DC, keeping their status quo maintained. They say the stimulus and bailouts are for us, but seriously, it's all about maintaining their status quo.

If the money being thrown at those bankster bailouts would be used instead to provide jobs, food, shelter to the millions of unemployed (and future millions of unemployed/homeless/hungry), we would sooner get on the road to recovery.

While they are maintaining their status quo, the country and the world, are heading towards the greatest depression ever. When enough of us are cold, jobless, hungry, penneyless, there will be civil unrest/general chaos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_unrest
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. Right On!
And I mean it in the 60's style!
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
17. excellent
thank you time for change
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. One of the best overviews of 20th century American political history ever at DU.
Seriously.

The battle for America's soul is laid out very succinctly.

Kudos to you, sir!

:patriot:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. Thank you very much bleever
We are indeed involved in a battle for America's soul -- which mostly involves truth vs. lies.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
26. If only I could rec this post a hundred times.
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 03:03 PM by ooglymoogly
The middle class owes its very existence to FDR and the sometimes greatness of the dems, yet they periodically forget it until a retarded numskull, crooked pug wheedles his way back into office and hits them over the head with a frying pan and fleeces them blind and tries to drag them back into the dark ages; Each time whittling away at the constitution and our founding fathers and the legacy of FDR. Stupefyingly, this happens and cycles like clockwork; Then the newly poor and middle class begin to remember wisps of a more secure past and of safety nets and dignity and of what a great man FDR was and to what they owe their bread and butter and survival; And that is, with few exceptions, the honest ones of the Democratic Party (we all know who they are); The proof of that greatness proven over and over, in every layer of our lives is in the legacy of FDR. He should be posthumously given every humanitarian laureate honor known to man. His legacy is the shining proof that the progressive democratic philosophy works and the tight assed pug dung heap does not.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Thank you
I certainly share your admiration for FDR.

He and Lincoln were unquestionably our two best IMO.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. link...FDR and Abe Lincoln are the top two on a new Cspan survey of top
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 10:29 PM by ooglymoogly
historians...http://www.infoplease.com/spot/presrankings1.html Check it out...whose the best and whose the worst. Don't know why Reagan is 11th on the list, he should be on the bottom
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I agree that Reagan should be rated very low
In recent years I've seen some polls that rank him inordinately high. I believe those are generally polls conducted by conservative think tanks, for the purpose of boosting up their conservative favorites. I don't believe they're legitimate, and they aren't conducted by historians.

The first time I notices a suspiciously high ranking for Reagan was when I picked up a book in a book store and saw Reagan ranked in the top ten. My reaction was :wtf: Then I noticed that the book was sponsored by the Federalist Society. Gee, I'm surprised they didn't rank him # 1.


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Tashca Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. A very good read.
I would like to comment on one area though....that of Herbert Hoover. While I too believe his intentions were not malevolent. I think you let him off way to easy.

There was probably not a person with more influence in both the Harding and Coolidge Presidencies than Herbert Hoover. He had a cabinet position in both and wielding great influence. His background and education and then beliefs had to do with efficiencies. He was always searching for efficiencies in everything. In business he had no problem bringing in cheap labor...for instance.
He also was a great believer in a working relationship between Big business and Government. He had the opposite beliefs of the adversarial confrontational government, against business, of the previous three Presidents. He believed that it was up to business to take care of the people.

So I would say he carried huge amounts of influence on policies for three Presidencies. I've heard for years that it was his Depression.....but I'm not sure most people realize how really true that is. It wasn't just the fact that he was President for a few months before the 1929 stock market collapse. It was also his huge influence on policy of the previous two Presidents. While I think the last President was simply a puppet for policies similar to Hoovers beliefs....I think Hoover really was the puppet master for his time. He deserves all the credit he can get for the Great Depression.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. Thank you -- You could be right about Hoover
The reason that I gave him some credit was that, as you probably know, he was in charge of the European relief effort. It is pretty much universally agreed that he did an exceptionally good job in that capacity, for which he is said to have saved hundreds of thousands of lives (or maybe millions?) and is widely regarded as a hero.

So I balance that with his many failures. That is certainly something that one would never hear (accurately) said about George W. Bush in a million years.

It's so difficult to ascertain peoples' motives.
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks so much for this excellent piece of writing.
Huge K&R! :applause: :dem:
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Once again I'm in awe of your level of research and analysis, Mr. Timefor...
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 07:02 PM by abq e streeter
I wish I could get every one of my (thankfully only a few ) repub friends to read this but every damn one of em is either too brainwashed or just plain not intellectually sharp enough for it to do any good...........oh yeah, K and R
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. Thank you -- I feel the same way about some of my friends
I've never had much luck getting them to read stuff like this, or why they do they react negatively to it, or neutrally at best. Even some of my progressive friends believe that I'm a little unbalanced for what I suspect the Bush administration of doing on 9/11.
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. I'm not sure of the extent of what I suspect re:9-11, but I do know that the official story
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 10:56 PM by abq e streeter
is a crock; they're such compulsive liars that if they told me the sun was shining I'd get my raincoat ( if I owned one---doesn't rain much here in New Mexico)...Guess I need to look up your journal and read your past writings on 9-11 ; I assume there's stuff there.... I have a good friend who does a public access TV show about it every week here , and found out an old college buddy who I remember as being pretty apolitical then is very involved in the truth movement in Vermont. But to the other subject of getting those on the other side who need to understand what is being done to them by the people they believe in, vote for, etc, I really am at a loss. I'm in the middle of reading David Brock's The Republican Noise Machine, and the gullible ones out there are so inundated with lies and propaganda, that I fear trying to counter it will be a permanently uphill battle. Once again I also want to express my admiration for your writings; I'm an intelligent but rather scatterbrained musician and the coherence of how you lay out your arguments and the research you do to back those arguments up always amazes me.
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TheUnspeakable Donating Member (960 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. Great Post!!-k&r
"In 1933, perhaps that opposition was somewhat understandable, since we had little historic precedent to learn from. Today we have the lessons of pre-New Deal Republican ideology, represented in Herbert Hoover’s failed policies, to learn from. If we fail to make use of that historical lesson we will pay dearly for it. "

Sadly, we have many Republicans in powerful positions who are willing to just flat out lie about it,
and a population so ignorant of their OWN history, they believe it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Thank you -- Those Republicans are willing ot lie about just about anything
We need to education our children much better about our history. That would solve a lot of problems.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
36. Kick! (already rec'd earlier) All DUers need to read this! (nt)
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DeschutesRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks for that interesting OP - enjoyed reading it.. nt
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. This article explains things in a very clear fashion.
When taxes go down, the rich get richer.
The disparity between the super rich and others grows until it becomes so off balance that the whole thing topples over into a depression.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. Thank you -- That pretty well sums it up in one brief sentence
Except, we need to be careful when we speak of taxes. If tax cuts are targeted to the middle and working class and poor (as Obama is speaking about) it will have a very different effect than if they're targeted to the rich, as were the Bush tax cuts.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
43. An excellent post, with insightful replies...
the letter from Ike some interesting commentary...and wow, that FDR fellow could give President Heartthrob a run for his money in the speechifyin' department, couldn't he? :P

KR&B
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s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
45. Thanks for puting this together.
It helps me understand better why the repubs act the way they do. If they hadn't developed the Souther Strategy, and then developed a base among the religious, they probably would have shriveled up and died by now.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
46. Keeper!
Have some hearts, Time for change:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Thank you
That's quite a lot of hearts!
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tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
50. Excellent Post. Loved the FDR quote. "Economic royalists."
There's a phrase that will stick with me.

Like many, I thought these arguments had been settled back in the '30s. Yet here come people trying to argue Hoover was right and FDR wrong. I guess when enough time passes, people forget, and the revisionist historians get a chance to confuse the less well-read. Does this mean in some sad future they will try to rehabilitate George W. Bush's reputation, and reinstate his failed policies? Yeesh.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Thank you -- Republicans are busy doing their very best to elevate their favorites
In that task, they've produced some conservative think tanks which put out their own presidential polls. I think that process is getting corrupted. A key to the validity of these presidential ranking polls is to see whether or not they're composed of historians. If they are composed fully of historians and if the process is open to all (so that we can rule out cherry picking) then it's probably legitimate. If there are few if any historians on it, I wouldn't trust it worth a damn.

I doubt that historians will ever rank Bush above last.

FDR's economic royalist speech was great. If anyone gave a speech like that today s/he'd be discredited and lambasted as instigating "class warfare".
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GrannyK Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
56. Great post. Thanks.
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kmlisle Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
57. Thanks for a great post
I think when we see this kind of change to our economic world its natural to ask why and what happened and you explain it so well!

The other two pieces of information that I think go well with your post are a report on MPR one day about how the excess wealth accumulated at the top became something that the very rich and greedy did not need for their own personal sustenance and so they "gambled" with it anywhere from a Bernie Maddoff ponzi scheme to a mortgage derivative, and Wall Street responded to their best customers by producing ever more risky products that offered ever higher dividends. They were willing to risk what they didn't really need. It blew me away to see the connection between uneven distribution of wealth and destabilization of our markets, but it makes sense, especially when you realize how much the markets are controlled by psychology. Of course a little regulation would have helped.

Second there is this great time line out there that is well worth looking at that lays out not only the economic events but also the government response (or not). You can see the Repubs fought FDR tooth and nail back then as well even to the point of taking his first stimulus legislation to the courts. The Supreme Court struck it down and he had to start over - finally coming up with the New Deal. The site is at http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/connections_n2/great_depression.html
Some truly amazing parallels here!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Thank you
And thank you for the timeline. I'll have to study that.
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