I just found out my Daughter joined the army grrrrrrr I need hugs

[greenbriar]

She is graduating High School 1 year early

she has a 3.8 GPA

she won a huge scholarship in a school of Engineering

and I just found out she joined the Army and her dad my hubby gave his blessing

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[proud patriot]

1. Thank God the chimp and darth cheney out of power

:( :think: :hug: x(

[MadMaddie]

2. Hugs greenbriar!

That's gotta be tough. Did she join an engineering field in the Army?

[rocktivity]

246. There are only two fields in the Army now--Iraq and Afghanistan

Only the politically connected get actual assignments. Sarah Palin's son is an MP escort--nice work considering he was charged with vandalizing government property.

Lord only know what they promised her. Good luck to her...

:hug:
rocktivity

[bdab1973]

247. You're not exactly accurate

"Her next stop is a foxhole in Afghanistan or Iraq"

I beg to differ. I seriously doubt that. Unless the infantry started taking women, she's not going to be digging hasty fighting positions in Afghanistan.

"Only the politically connected get the cushy assignments"

I wonder what you consider "cushy". I fly airplanes in the military. I am not politically connected. The enlisted flight engineer and loadmaster are also not politically connected. When I was in the Army, I knew lots of kids who were in supply, vehicle maintenance, communications and other career fields, and they were all ordinary Americans.

[rocktivity]

256. Not being in a foxhole didn't save Tammy Duckworth or Jessica Lynch.

And while "an ordinary American" might be able to get into today's military with a criminal record, I don't think he'd be allowed to be an MP, never mind one assigned to accompany the top brass.

I'm not anti-military--I wrote ads for the Army when Clinton was CIC. I just wish this young girl had a least given college a try. If she were doing this as result of spending a year there and not liking it, I could be a little happier for her.
:headbang:
rocktivity

[57_TomCat]

261. Choosing the military right out of High school...

often prepares the individual to excell in college. Most often to a greater extent than simply moving on to college without the requisite self discipline. I found college to be a refreshing respite after the Army and I was a MUCH better student than I would have been straight out of HS. Better yet I had some life experience and a world view based on actually leaving my mother country. This gave me a better grasp of the many theoretical concepts taught in college. It also allowed me to argue my views more effectively.

She did good and I honor her service.

[Rebubula]

276. I rarely...

....meet ANYONE that has served in the Armed Forces (honorably) and is NOT a top notch person.

Say what you want about war but being in the Military gives you a view of real life and teaches you how to deal with difficult situations under pressure.

Good Luck to your Daughter...she sounds like a very good person and will likely come out of the service and even better person.

[bdab1973]

281. Duckworth = combat helicopter pilot....Lynch = mechanic that got lost and stumbled into firefight

Duckworth chose her career path. The Army didn't "make" her be a pilot. Those slots are competitive. Lynch...well, she wasn't supposed to see direct combat, but thankfully someone in her unit screwed up royally and took a wrong turn (I was being sarcastic).

There are lots of jobs this young lady can do in the Army that don't involve combat. And they are easier to get than you think.

[Cid_B]

271. Look at this...

http://www.militarypolice.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10

Then rethink that ignorant statement....

[omega minimo]

3. wow

wow :grouphug:


did she say why she joined?

[greenbriar]

9. her uncle joined last year (leaving his x and 2 beautiful children)

and he has led her to believe it is a lot of fun and exciting

she went to stay with him on base a couple of times and thinks it is a fun party atmosphere


I don't know what all the details are

I was so pissed I couldn't continue the discussion

[omega minimo]

11. military marketing portrays it as "fun and exciting" on TV and elsewhere

[NeedleCast]

105. Most of my military career was fun

Joining the military doesn't mean an automatic trip to Iraq.

I got to spend a year exploring Korea, which was fascinating. I spent time in Japan. Djibouti, Africa (not as much fun, but very eye opening).

[bdab1973]

111. I agree...

I would not trade my experiences for anything. Sure, there are times that I didn't enjoy my job but I think everyone's experienced that at some point. Overall, it's been a very good 17 years so far.

[fuggbush21]

291. It isn't?

In the 7 years I've been in I've travelled all over the world, I've worked with a lot of great people. I have a job thats high intensity, it's fun, and it's extremely rewarding. I've seen things i'm sure most here will never see. And I'm a "standard" member of the military. I haven't been to 1/3rd of the places that a lot of people have been to.

The military is fun, and I don't regret a single second of any of it.

[Muttocracy]

4. I remember your threads about this before - was it a sudden decision just now?

isn't she too young to do it without both parents' permission?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3677080

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x871197

[grasswire]

5. Did he give his blessing before or after?

I'm sorry. I can understand how you must feel.

[fuggbush21]

292. If her daughter wasn't 18 yet

she needed parental consent. Which means that her husband signed the form allowing her to join. This was all done before the Oath of Enlistment was made.

[southerncrone]

6. Why did she do such a thing?

Was it the recruiters at her school?

They are at the school where I teach about once a week now. It breaks my heart to see the kids gather 'round them to get the goodies they give out, knowing full well they are only considering joining because the don't feel they have any other viable options. Poor kids with limited work or college opportunities. :(


:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

Edited to add hugs.

[msongs]

7. kid & hubby didn't tell you in advance? it was total complete surprise? wow!

if she is underage you mayy have a say in the matter if you choose to exercise it.

I thought effective communication was a valuable skill for the army (except at the command level in the Bush gang).

Msongs

[greenbriar]

12. I knew she wanted to do this

but I thought she knew how I felt


She will be almost 18 when she graduates HS

I really at this point do not have a say in it



hubby says he is not thrilled with it, but he accepts it and doesn't want the military to drive a wedge in our relationship with her.

Says it is better to accept it then to have her just run off and do it

[omega minimo]

13. i'm sorry greenbriar

sounds like another wedge is being driven here.



"Says it is better to accept it then to have her just run off and do it"

or encourage her to have a realistic view of the Army and of her options.

Engineering scholarship! Is that a problem?

[rwheeler31]

8. Oh, I am so sorry . Why do the do this?

[SheilaT]

10. Why???

Although she's a very desirable recruit for them. But if she has a huge scholarship to a school of engineering, why in the world does she want to give that up?

And, as someone else pointed out, if she's graduating h.s. a year early, isn't she only 17, maybe 16?

Well, hugs to you. She's probably a remarkable young woman.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

14. My dear greenbriar!

I am just sickened to hear this...

To throw away her scholarship too...

Oh god.

I wish there were some way you could show her how life in the Army really is.

Hugs to you, sweetie...

:hug: :hug: :hug:

[greenbriar]

thank you. I tried to talk to her about reality

but all she can see are the "wonderful" stories her uncle has fed her

[Chulanowa]

20. What it sounds like to me...

Is a teenager clamping onto an idea that will seem good for a week, before she flits to some other "cool thing". At seventeen years old, even as smart as she obviously is, I don't think she really comprehends that she'll be giving eight years of her life to a profession that has a fair chance of her getting killed. You need to really talk to her, and call that uncle to task.

Sad reality is, with the army in the state its in now, her education won't count for shit - she'll be tossed in with hte grunts no matter where she tries to land.

[Horse with no Name]

26. Exactly.

My brother was guaranteed an "x" amount of dollars for education by the recruiters.
After he signed the papers, he noticed it was left out--so he tried to get them to fix it.
I'll give you two guesses on what answer they gave and the first one doesn't count.
Luckily for him (I guess), the military is a good fit and he loves it. Good thing because he would be paying for his education since Uncle Sam cheated him out of his promised money.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bdamomma]

232. not to be rude, but mentioned the suicide rate of soldiers.

[Peggesis1]

286. and the rate of rape among female military personnel

She needs to be aware of this. Remember the young female soldier who died of dehydration because she restricted her fluids to avoid needing to go out to the toilet at night (for fear of rape)?

[Trajan]

15. I would have NEVER accepted this three months ago ....

But I am seriously considering dragging my rudderless, aimless, dreamless, wannabe grandmaster pothead son to a recruitment office ....

Some kids do benefit from the forced regimentation, and I believe mine is one that would ....

We have been discussing it ....

For the record: I have two older kids that have vivid 'dreams' about where they want to go in life, and the wherewithall to see themselves through it .... He has simply not had that drive as they did ... And self discipline is not his strong point ....

[Oregone]

42. Whats wrong with being a pothead?

Better than a hole in his head. What, does he hurt people when he smokes up? Every time he lights a bowl, a little angle in heaven dies (or a little girl in Iraq)? Damn, it may not be what you dreamed of, but at least he isn't a mindless tool of some imperialistic machine, brining pain upon exploited people. There are worse things in life than smoking it up a bit.

[Trajan]

46. Um .... Hold your horses ....

First: I have MUCH experience in this matter, and I am very honest with him about this ...

I am PRO hemp, and PRO Legalization, but we are talking about a young man of 18, who is not in college, and not working ....

He is an idler, spending all day 'chillin' with his friends while the rest of his family works ...

It is because I know about the 'puffing' lifestyle that I know he should not pursue it at the expense of other sectors of life ....

He can smoke all he wants AFTER he works towards his future, but he will not lift himself out of his 'chillin' idler stage if he doesnt get a job, and he will not get a job if he cannot pass a urinalysis ..... So it simply follows that he cannot follow his pothead dreams at this point in his life ....

Tell you what: You want to promote that lifestyle for him ? .... Send us your address, and I will help him pack .....

I am sure you can provide better guidance for him ...

EDIT: I forgot to add : We have found valuable objects, like cameras and iPods, of which he cannot give a reasonable account for their provenance .... I would recommend a complete inventory of your household prior to his arrival ....

[Oregone]

47. "He can smoke all he wants AFTER he works towards his future"

So after he keeps up with the Jones and works a pointless shit job for a standard of living society forces upon him, he can smoke and find out he spent years pursuing bullshit?

At least he is emancipated from being born into a society of indentured servitude. Give his complete lack of trying a bit of credit here.

Maybe having that home, perfect job, car, and all that other shit isn't what is going to float his boat. But sending him off to war (and some small part to provide resentful satisfaction for yourself--which I doubt youll admit), wont "fix" things.

Yes, maybe allowing him to be a forced tool of imperialism with help him be a tool of capitalism. But if you value neither, you may realize the silliness of the approach.

(BTW, I know people coming back with rashes and disabilities, who will NEVER work again. Yeah, they get to golf at the Dom and get first pick on Deer tags for life, as well as free college they can't concentrate on due to headaches, but its better than being a pothead. Of course, who knows what else they get hooked on while serving overseas...who knows what they will need to get them through day to day).

[Madam Mossfern]

48. Unrealistic

How do you suppose that he support himself without his parents house and food and money for clothes. It's not about keeping up with the Joneses, it's about contributing to society. Even living at a basic level requires that one earn their keep.

It's called independence and responsibility.
You do realize that you are enjoying the freedom preserved by others in the armed forces.
We have a new administration and imperialistic policies hopefully are a thing of the past.

Tell me, other than immature self-indulgence, what is the advantage of being a pot head?

[Oregone]

51. "you are enjoying the freedom preserved by others in the armed forces"

I really, really am not. Yeah, I realize the old mantra, "freedom isn't free" and all that propaganda. But Im also out of the soldier protected zone, so my freedom is a tad more free.

You want him to support himself and have a bit of independence? Charge him rent or kick him out. Instead, send him to fucking die or kill children? Are you nuts?

"Tell me, other than immature self-indulgence, what is the advantage of being a pot head?"

What's wrong with self-indulgence? One advantage may be the generation of less taxable income, which is less money for an imperialistic war chest.

This is a really funny scenario actually. If you don't want to be a little Eichmann, you'll just get sent to the front lines.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GA_ArmyVet]

131. First of all, I don't kill civilians,

or kids or anyone for that matter who is not pointing a gun at me. In fact, I no more pulled the trigger anyone than you did. I do a job in the army and I have been deployed and I have been there. Do we have people in the Army/Military that have done some bad things. Yes, we do. Do we have murderer who kill children and innocent adults in our own cities?, Why yes we do. The military is a reflection of our own society. We have the good and the bad.

#2. The soldier free zone you live in, is kept that way by forward deployed soldiers and military actions. Yeah I know you don't believe there will ever be real threat to you and your lifestyle and that's okay. But I believe you are wrong and that there are many who would love to destroy this country and your lifestyle.

3. Joining the military does not automatically send you to war or even in harms way.

4. I do not ask for more respect than any other person in this country or on this board, but I am tired of the insinuation that because I chose not to smoke pot and serve my country in the military, that I am some sort of inbred ingnorant babykilling murderer. I am well educated, well traveled, and well mannered man who has seen more of this world than most people, and done things that many people would not or could not force themselves to do for themselves.

[PassingFair]

132. Who dropped all those bombs in Iraq? Aliens?

Civilians were killed. In the thousands.

And displaced in the MILLIONS.

But, no, we had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

I'm not blaming you personally, you know.

Just saying that it is wise to avoid having
to follow orders that lead one to doing unnecessary
damage to others.

[bdab1973]

143. Why do you feel you need to speak for the Iraqis?

Have you been here? Have you talked to Iraqis?

Everyone back home seems to think Iraq is this bombed out and gutted country, courtesy of the USA. That's far from true. The only places I see visible signs of bomb craters is around former Iraqi military installations. I've been pretty much all over the country...Mosul, Erbil, Sulaimaniyah, Qayyarah, Tikrit, Kirkuk, Baghdad, Hit, Fallujah/Ramadi, Najaf, Kut, Basrah and Nasariyah among others. My coworkers are mostly Iraqi. I work on an Iraqi military installation.

In fact, I told one of them the other day that many Americans think we bombed the hell out of their homes, and he laughed saying the American news media is corrupt. I'm not saying the war was right, wrong or anything. Just telling you what they tell me. Yes, we bombed parts of Iraq, but unlike many countries we try very hard to ensure they are military targets.

[Oregone]

149. "The only places I see visible signs of bomb craters is around former Iraqi military installations"

We should replace "smart bomb" terminology with "genius bombs". Its just fucking amazing.

:sarcasm:

[bdab1973]

154. You add nothing to this discussion but your own OPINIONS

And that's fine...you can have your opinions, but let it be noted they are such.

[Oregone]

157. Yes, I lack your secret omniscient knowledge based on first hand experience...

Therefore, I will only listen and elect military leaders because small civilian minds cannot comprehend such amazing feats.

[bdab1973]

160. Now you put words in my mouth...do you really have anything useful to say?

I mean, really? Or are you simply so narrow minded to believe that any Iraqis could possibly like Americans or even want to work with them...

Have you really been so convinced by your second-, third- and fourth-hand information that Iraq is a smoldering ruin, and that American troops roam the streets gunning down civilians? Really?

[Oregone]

161. "Iraqis could possibly like Americans or even want to work with them"

I would suck Dick Cheney's cock with a smile on my face if the unemployment rate reached that high here. Of course, thats just a liberal media lie, and its probably hovering at a mere 3%, eh?

[bdab1973]

165. You're right, you know everything because you're just really smart, and I'm really dumb

I got it...

I'm wasting my time even responding to you. I'm honestly really tired of individuals back home who seem to think they've got it all figured out.

Well, you don't.

[Oregone]

168. No...

But it may have something to do with while we are both where we are at respectively.

[bdab1973]

175. I am fine with where I am at

[GA_ArmyVet]

151. Well said.

Welcome back home my brother.

[bdab1973]

155. I'm not home yet....been here in Iraq for almost 8 months, got a little over 4 to go...

[GA_ArmyVet]

189. Keep your head down and come back to us soon

Shoot me note when you get back and I'll buy you beer and welcome you home right.

[bdab1973]

192. Alright...take care...

At least my job (as an advisor) has something to do with wrapping this conflict up and coming home!

[LanternWaste]

190. For what it's worth...

For what it's worth-- be careful, stay safe, and keep your head down...

(like you're not doing that already...)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

225. Don't worry, they can't access DU from Iraq, so I'm guessing the poster is somewhere safe

[bdab1973]

228. Uh, actually I can...we have satellite internet service

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

224. LOL

Oddly enough, that is NOT what I heard from my friend who is serving his third tour in Iraq.

Somehow, I believe him over some unknown poster on the internet.

[bdab1973]

229. Different locations

Your friend, who's serving their third tour in Iraq, is mis-informed. We are located at the Baghdad airport, on the Victory Base Complex. It's a huge complex. There are several internet cafes you can use to access the internet without going through military servers. The members of our squadron pooled together and operate a satellite internet system through BentleyWalker. Altogether, it costs about $60 a month for access per person.

[roody]

300. Who will speak for the 1 million dead?

[GA_ArmyVet]

150. It would be wiser to elect officials who don't put into position

to fight those wars. You see I dont blame you personally, just the 80-90% percent of congress who voted to authorize it, and the people who voted them in.

The way I see it, you and every other voter bear as much responsibiity as I do. I don't shoot civilian. I will engage those who fire at me...Hell, if we invade a country and they dont fight we wont shoot them. Dont get me wrong I am not saying the invasion was okay, what I am saying is that you bear as much responsibility for that invasion as I do. You voted, I voted, and everyone else voted. I dont get the option of deciding what war I am going to fight, I ceded that right when I joined and voluntarily placed that decision in the hands of "CIVILIAN" direction.

[Oregone]

156. Well I don't bear a shred of responsibility, so fuck that....

I didn't vote for any asshole that signed off on war, and I moved out of the country so my tax dollars no longer have to fund the war.

But way to point fingers, to diffuse the guilt you finally see. Just remember, the people on this side of the ocean though aren't making their living *directly* supporting or contributing to the war effort.

Im not saying you signed up to do that, but that is what your job now entails.

[GA_ArmyVet]

171. Hardly what my job entails and I feel no guilt.

Nor did I vote for him, but I bet you voted for some of the Dem Senators or Congressmen/women who voted for it. As I recall, there were plenty.

What I find interesting is that support for both wars were topping 80% when we got sent there, now that is unpopular people want to blame the military, I say blame yourselves, you (the country) get the Government you vote, and you deserve what you get.

So yes, I blame DEM's, Repubs, and all the contrary people who voted for it, against it, and back and forth.

You want to stand on principle, pick one and keep it.

You want to blame me and my fellow soldiers, I say look in the mirror or at you elected officials.


That rant done.

I ask you this would you really want a military that decided on it own just to disobey their CIC just because they disagree with him and if so how soon do you think it would be before they decided that they could run the country better than the Civilians.
That is the reason we swear an oath to be subordinate to elected officials, an oath we take very seriously.

[Oregone]

173. "would you really want a military that decided on it own just to disobey their CIC just because the"

No, Id rather just not have a military.

And no, again, I didn't vote for a damn person who supported the war.

And, to be straight, Im not 'blaming' any soldiers. They are tools of an imperialistic machine. They allow themselves to be. But even the machine cannot act without tools. Such tools allow the imperialism to manifest itself in the world.

This original OP thinks its better to be a tool of this force than to be a useless pothead. That blows my mind, since it enables imperialism and sets the tool up to commit or contribute to destructive acts.

[LanternWaste]

193. As does passive uselessness...

"since it enables imperialism and sets the tool up to commit or contribute to destructive acts..."

As does passive uselessness...

[Oregone]

195. I disagree...

Being useless generates no taxable revenue to fund the war machine. Its the most benign approach.

BTW, while some people protest, they still buy bullets with your money. Maybe the couch dwellers have it figured out.

[LanternWaste]

207. Remaining useless allows those in power to remain there

Remaining useless and passive allows those in power to remain in power. Gandhi called it "cowardice of the spirit, laziness of the soul, fear of the throne"/

"Its the most benign approach."
That's one spin. Others may just as validly say it's the lazy approach or even the cowardly approach, as did Gandhi.

However, I can see why people would defend and justify running away and doing nothing, all the while calling it the "right thing to do"-- it's human nature to justify our own timidity in the face of evil, and then project our own uselessness and inadequacies onto those who remain behind.

We're all human, I suppose.

[Oregone]

211. Remaining productive allows the people to stay in power and prosper off your labor

End of story.

[GA_ArmyVet]

194. Hardly realistic but if we want to go down that road

I want world peace, and cars made out of marshmallows that run off air with pure Oxygen exhaust, nobody has to go to work and we just spend out time thinking up things for the betterment of mankind. Oh yeah and Chocolate would not be fattening.

[Oregone]

197. I was merely giving my preference...

And not citing its realistic nature when doing so.

Second to that I would like intelligent soldiers who would refuse 'immoral' acts (which in no way infers they would be pro-active in coups). But you can't have everything, can you? Otherwise, I would have a marshmallow car.

[GA_ArmyVet]

201. Finally a point we can agree on....

By the way, I am also pro legalization or marijuana and have fought to change that law as well.
I believe that continued criminalization leads to organized gang crime and violence (not be the users, the dealers), and should be legalized and taxed. however we are now way off topic. I wish you well and enjoyed the debate.

Stay a peace and in good health.

[greenbriar]

202. not sure what you mean by your last sentence. I have nothing to do with the pothead discussion

but

as a MOTHER I DO NOT WANT MY DAUGHTER to join the military

plain and simple

[GA_ArmyVet]

206. I understand and I respect it

It is a different life in the service, but I would assure you it is not as bad as many relate.. we are not indoctrinated or brainwashed and although deployments are possible depending on the service and particular job, the risks on the deployment can be failry low. That being said, if you are curious about anything within the military whether something a recruiter says is true or not (and yes some have been known to lie), please reach out to us vets on DU. We would welcome more Libs to the ranks as we are a vast minority, it is a personal choice and not for everyone.

[Cid_B]

220. "No, Id rather just not have a military"

Let me know how that works out for you. :eyes:

[PassingFair]

213. The VAST majority of Democrats in the House voted AGAINST the IWR...

and NO VOTERS in the sitting Democratic Senate outnumber
the YES voters.

Put the blame SQUARELY where it lies...with the Bush Administration
and the Republicans.

With the exception of Jim Jeffords and Lincoln Chaffee, they ALL
voted to pre-emptively attack Iraq.

"Dont get me wrong I am not saying the invasion was okay, what I am saying is that you bear as much responsibility for that invasion as I do. You voted, I voted, and everyone else voted. I dont get the option of deciding what war I am going to fight, I ceded that right when I joined and voluntarily placed that decision in the hands of "CIVILIAN" direction."




I bear NO responsibility for "that invasion", I protested against
it, and voted AGAINST the mother*uckers that sent you there.

I reiterate that it is against my principals to CEDE the right
to make moral decisions for myself under ANY circumstances.

My father was drafted during the Korean War (Marines)
and he told me that I should NEVER place myself in a
position where I had to compromise my own principles,
or to EVER follow orders contrary to my own sense of
humanity. Ever.

[Oregone]

138. Even if you don't pull that trigger or drop that bomb...

You may be repairing the engines of the planes that do, moving the supplies feeding the troops that do, etc. Civilians are dying because our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan (hundreds of thousands), and all that are involved with supporting such an effort contribute to that death toll. If you want to be downgraded from murder to negligent manslaughter, fine.

"The soldier free zone you live in, is kept that way by forward deployed soldiers and military actions. Yeah I know you don't believe there will ever be real threat to you and your lifestyle and that's okay. "

And even my soldier free zone is not kept "free" by deployed soldiers; I don't even live in the United States! Regardless, for those that do, in no way can you prove that any military deployments preserve freedom and their way of life. At that point, it just breaks down to right-wing rhetoric and dribble, equivalent in credibility to claims that man had dinosaurs for pets.

"Joining the military does not automatically send you to war or even in harms way."

I agree. Playing Russian Roulette does not automatically put a bullet in your head too.

"I am tired of the insinuation that because I chose not to smoke pot and serve my country in the military, that I am some sort of inbred ingnorant babykilling murderer"

That offends me. I never said ignorant or inbred, did I? (spell check "ingnorant")

[bdab1973]

144. Perhaps you should come here and gather your opinion...

Ask the guys I work with. I think your "American soldiers are murderers" stance would probably piss them off. And they are Iraqi.

[Oregone]

146. Why go there?

I could just ask the refugees at the border crossings how many of their family members they've lost.

[bdab1973]

153. Sure, ask one of our loadmasters about his son who died in a suicide bombing...

and when you tell him your views on the Americans, he'd probably tell you to get lost. These guys aren't who you think they are, and they don't feel the way you think they do.

"Why go there?"...sure, you wouldn't gain ANY knowledge to support your preconceived ideals is why, I'm guessing.

[Oregone]

159. "These guys aren't who you think they are"

Oh WOW! These guys are homogeneous! They are one people represented by the opinions of your loadmaster and those minority Iraqis who have to work daily with the US troops to put food on the table (yes, I speak in such hyperbole in awareness of their staggering unemployment rate).

[bdab1973]

162. You don't get it, and you never will

These guys don't just come here because they want to put food on the table, moron.

I find it utterly amazing that you've never set foot here, nor do you have any contact with anyone that lives here, and you feel justified to act as though you know it all.

[Oregone]

164. "These guys don't just come here because they want to put food on the table"

But it sure as hell is a big reason. Hey, they aren't working for free, right?You aren't paying them in John Wayne movies and baseball caps, right?

[bdab1973]

166. Some haven't been paid in 8 months, so I guess it's not just all about the money

The copilot we recently graduated cried when he told us his father was proud of him over the phone. There's more to it than simple money.

[Oregone]

169. He probably didn't cry as much as the father who lost his child a few days ago

[bdab1973]

174. You're an asshole. Sorry. That guy isn't simply something for you to giggle at on a message board

[Oregone]

177. Who is giggling?

People are dying and you are talking about joyous prideful crying? Are you nuts?

[bdab1973]

180. Nope...not nuts

These people are getting their country back, and this guy getting qualified to do his job as part of the greater country of Iraq is but one small part of getting everyone here back to some state of normalcy. It's not just pride, it's resolve, it's determination and it's something that obviously you don't understand.

[Oregone]

184. "These people are getting their country back" - They'll greet us with flowers

We will bring them freedom! Freedom is messy!

Blaah. Ive heard years of that shit. Im pretty finished with the talking points.

[GA_ArmyVet]

172. "These guys are homogeneous"

Well, isn't that the way you bottle us service members?

They are not homogeneous, however I believe he was speaking cultural differences, which are vast between their culture and western cultures.

[Oregone]

176. In some respect I do bottle you up that way...

Being that you pledge to serve the demands of an imperialistic machine, and do that as a job. Im not sure there is anyway around that. You don't get paid to just smoke weed and sit on your ass, right? Or if so, perhaps I stand corrected.

[bdab1973]

178. "you pledge to serve the demands of an imperialistic machine..."

Hmm, having a hard time finding that pledge...says something about a constitution, but no machine of any kind.

[Oregone]

181. I can not fault you for lacking an understanding of how your government & society are structure

[bdab1973]

185. Obviously, you are much more enlightened than anyone else here.

[GA_ArmyVet]

186. Nor can I fault you for not understanding how we

work. We swear to defend the Constitution and obey the orders of the Civilian elected officials.

I don't seem to recall swearing allegiance to any particular political machine.

[Oregone]

188. Well, isn't that a contradiction?

"We swear to defend the Constitution and obey the orders of the Civilian elected officials.

I don't seem to recall swearing allegiance to any particular political machine."

Obeying the orders of the 'elected' officials, the upper echelon of our society (which is controlled and beholden to the private sector), is the same as obeying the orders of the imperialistic machine.

[bdab1973]

196. No, it's not a contradiction...

The Constitution gives those elected civilian leaders a certain measure of authority to make decisions and policy. Pledging an oath to the Constitution removes any political partisanship from military service. We are required to acknowledge the president as the commander in chief regardless of party affiliation.

[Oregone]

199. Of course you are, and that makes you a tool to Them...

"We are required to acknowledge the president as the commander in chief regardless of party affiliation."

And when you serve, maybe you aren't serving that gas station attendant in small town Georgia. Just maybe you are serving the interests of the shareholder of Halliburton, who pressured and molded the political decision to go to war. You are still a tool of something that is much more complex than the constitution or a public (figurehead) politician.

[GA_ArmyVet]

163. Ok

The ingnorant was not spelledc correctly (touche), but I was typing fast..I know you did not say it, and I was ranting a bit from other posts. However, I happen to disagree with your opinion of the military. I dont believe you have any idea what we do daily or what we do.

As far as you soldier free zone, it does not matter where you are, the US military has long been the force that has kept western nations free. You can believe it or not, I dont care, I lived in europe during the Cold War. I have served in South America.

The Anti American sentiment is there at times, but for the most part they prefer us to the alternative. You and I however can choose to disagree as I am not likely to change your mind nor you mine.

And you may be paying taxes thast allow this, or building Microchips that we put in the weapon systems, or any number of indirect suypport functions.

The bottom line is that most soldiers and or any service members go to great lengths to avoid innocent casualties even to point of the US taking more casualties, so yea it makes me a little angry when the "babykiller" and "murderer" line is tossed out.

Thanks for the polite response by the way, I like th fact that we can disagree without getting nasty with each other as these posts sometimes seem to get.

[Oregone]

167. "the US military has long been the force that has kept western nations free"

Could you provide specific examples within the last 10 years of how oversea deployment or military action has kept western nations free? We can debate those on facts and merit.

An no, I don't build microchips, and I stopped paying US taxes months ago (which was as soon as I legally could, and I will never again). Ive removed myself from that chain as much as possible.

But hell, is paying taxes (mandatory) the same thing as taking a job feeding people before they go out into a war, or moving munitions that are used to kill people?

[GA_ArmyVet]

182. Pretty much in my opinion,

Services could not survive without the money..so in fact the money is the vital part.

However since you don't live in my country and you don't pay taxes here, you really don't have much voice any more in what my country does.

None, that I can discuss in detail here, nor do you have any facts that can support that we have not.

Live on in your happy world. I however have seen a broader world, where there are threats to our way of life, and I choose n ot to run away from it and bury my head in an alternate reality. Again that is your choice, enjoy it, I don't fault you and desire to jail or imprison you or call names because of it, but don't get on your high horse and claim some moral superiority because you chose to do nothing and run away from conflict. You disagree with the war, fight to end it. you choose to leave, fine, you made your choice, I don't blame you for doing what I think is right, but we made other choices to fight for what we believe in and to fight to change those thing we think are wrong, not run off to other countries and hide.

[Oregone]

187. Well opinions are like assholes....

:)

And they can be dangerous when acted upon.

Im not sure I can be convinced that foreign intervention actively keeps people free, though I remain open minded if a substantial argument was ever formed.

[bdab1973]

191. Open minded?

I guess that explains the "eh, you military kids are so typical...I don't care if you've been there and talked with Iraqis, your opinions and points are meaningless and you're a bunch of simpletons that don't understand blah blah blah".

Sounds pretty open minded.

[Joey Liberal]

249. I salute you

I'm an Army vet too. I know the ups and downs of military service. President Bush and Darth Vader Cheney have done much to malign military service. But pretty much any Soldier that joins today will see Iraq or Afghanistan. Sure some get lucky with an assignement that wont take them in harms way. But the majority are going to Iraq or Afghanistan.

[GA_ArmyVet]

253. Thanks

good to hear from a fellow veteran.

I salute you as well, and anyone who has chosen to serve country over self.

[Trajan]

49. Silliness is right ...

We are human beings, and as such, we require three specific needs to be met, above all else: Food, Shelter and Clothing ... Who will provide that for him ? .....

Unless he can find a sponsor that is willing to provide these necessities for him, he is going to be responsible for his own needs .... He is humanly capable of working towards providing for his own needs, as nature demands it ....

Imagine, if you will: Remove ALL the artifice of this world and its civilizations ...

Remove the corporations ...

Remove the nations, the states, the cities, towns, and houses ....

Remove mankind backwards to where he came from: roving clans using basic tools to scratch a living from the raw earth ...

He would even then be expected to contribute: No clan would allow a slacker to enjoy the fruits of THEIR hard labor, and he would be in the same boat, but an even shakier boat, with more danger and more effort required to survive ...

It is ridiculous to presume a human being does not have to work on their own behalf if they are able to do so ...

As I said: I would have NEVER recommended the service to him under a GOP regime, but that is over now .... I do NOT expect an Obama administration to behave in any way as the Bush PNAC idiots did ....

Given that: a boy like mine, who seems to possess NO self discipline whatsoever, would obtain that gift from such a regulated lifestyle as military service provides ....

FYI: He broached the idea to me, and considered it a viable alternative before I would have considered it ....

In any case: I have no problem with anyone smoking weed, but I have a huge problem with my own son smoking weed at the expense of developing as a self sufficient human being ....

I will note: No address was provided .....

I will also note: I would not advise him to go to that address: He has no future there ....

[Oregone]

52. It is ridiculous to assume a human being will not work on their own behalf if forced to...

And you recognize he will be forced to work in the military, but yet you are not capable of making him do so yourself?

It just seems like you are thinking a bit binary here. Be a pothead or go to the military....there is nothing else out there, eh? Just seems like an easy answer. Why not encourage the Peace Corp?!?

Yes, no address was provided (he would need a visa). There are plenty here smoking and successful. There are plenty just smoking, all the same.

[Trajan]

53. Really ?

Explain in detail one example where you know of someone who smoked pot all day and did not go to school, or work, or did anything else other than played games or slept into the late afternoon, and is now 'successful' in providing for his own needs ...

Look .... I am a parent who has worked hard to provide for his family .. I know what a battle it is, and how hard it is to scratch out an existence in this VERY harsh world .... Dont think I haven't tried other alternatives on his behalf: I have gotten him jobs, GOOD jobs, but he blows it by being irresponsible .... I cannot (nor will I) hold his hand for every hour of every day ... It is up to him to get his own jobs now .... He is of age, and I work long hours as it is: I cannot do anything other than advise him to be productive with his time : Advise he chooses to ignore ...

I am not 'forcing' him to do anything ... HE brought up the military, and I simply stopped resisting the idea, on HIS behalf, not my own ....

Frankly: You seem a bit starry eyed about this whole parenting thing, acting as if any kid can do nothing to promote their own future, and somehow, magically, arrive at being successful in life ...

Well ... That is NOT how it works .. Even the hardest working young men and women can fail ... But at least they try ... he is not trying .... Why advise him to join the Peace Corp if he wont do that either ???

The rest of your commentary is useless to us .... Sitting around smoking pot all day is NOT going to get him where he needs to go .... It is that simple ....

[Lost in CT]

55. HUGS to you.

I have known some kids with the same problems (or worse) that went into the military and it was just what they needed.

One thing about the pro pot smoking couch surfing folks. They never seem to volunteer to feed and clothe your kid so he can continue his lifestyle.

[Oregone]

57. "They never seem to volunteer..."

No, but they don't also start or support the wars that take so many young lives and destroy so many futures.

[Trajan]

60. Who said that joining the military translates to 'support the wars' ?

There are MANY active military in DU this very moment, and nary a one desires war ....

[Oregone]

63. I didn't even suggest it...

I was merely talking about potheads lack of support...

Now as far as being a member of the military, well, you physically do support a war effort (not the fake 'flag-waving' type of support). Yes, even without a rifle in your hands, you enable it to happen by fulfilling supply routes, securing arsenals, etc. Hell, even non-military, little capitalistic Eichmanns supply that cash for the war. To some degree or another, everyone has a little blood on their hands, eh? Just because you don't desire a war doesn't mean you aren't part of making it possible.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

267. I guess your previous taxes count as financial support, I guess that makes you a murderer also.

[Oregone]

278. No its a good point...

There isn't anything I can do about whats paid, except lose sleep. At least I made a change so I don't contribute anymore to murder. I wish the same could be said about you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

295. I'm not losing any sleep.

I don't think my service as a combat medic or your role as a taxpayer makes either of us more or less guilty than the bomber pilot or the sniper. To each their own though. :toast:

David

[Oregone]

56. Here is an example of a successful pothead...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/06/seth-rogens-advice-on-the_n_117272.html?show_comment_id=14871831

:)

Yeah, and he also had a job. Potheads can have jobs. Maybe he might like arts or music, or something that appeals to him besides wearing flare and working a crappy job he doesn't like.

Look, he brought up the military, counter that with peace corp or something like a habitat for humanity. You can get him fired up about other things, and some of them don't have to conflict with his habits.

You keep talking about being successful in life...thats a very relative thing. Sometimes its about happiness. Smoking may not make him happy, but the military may sure as hell not (it could destroy his life forever like the people I know).

Failure and success shouldn't be some tangible concept measured by what is in the bank account after 30 years and what assets one owns. You keep talking about where he "needs" to go. Look, most of us were where he may be at one point in our lives, and through other paths and lessons you learn and evolve. There isn't a single road to having a "life worth living" (and such worth should be judged only be him).

[Trajan]

59. Where he 'needs' to go ....

Is where he can put a roof over his head, clothes on his body and sustenance in his belly ....

That is the bottom line for every human being .....

Oh .... and a pipe load ....

I almost forgot that ....

[Oregone]

61. Well, concerning the pipe load...

I hope its filled with pot rather than some of the other crap people are getting their hands on in Afghanistan. Just saying. Wish you all the best with him though.

[Lost in CT]

62. Sure but one doesn't want their child to become one.

I support the right of sex workers to ply their trade and I support the rights of homeless men to drink and refuse shelter.

That doesn't mean I would want my child to be a homeless drunk or a prostitute.

A bank account after 30 years may not be a good measure of a man but being able to support oneself is.

If a pothead can't support oneself and mooches off his folks (and I have known more than a few in my travels)

He is simply a bum. And honestly he can't handle his pot and needs to stop smoking.

Nobody wants that for their child.

[Oregone]

64. Of course no one wants that for their child

But we are talking about polar extremes here. Is the only alternative to this (Being a worthless pothead), being a successful educated hardworking productive member of society with their future intact? Is the only solution to this "failure" sending them to the military? Is there middle ground? Can you have habits and still have a roof? It just seems like going from one extreme to the other. There are many worse things to be in life than a pothead. And there are many people leaving the military in such a state where they are even more useless and in need than a pothead. Its not just a black and white, binary thing.

[Lost in CT]

65. I agree

but the complaint above wasn't that the kid smoked pot.

It was that he slept all day on the couch, didn't do a lick of work, and played video games.

The pot is both a symptom and a trigger for such sloth.

I understand if the parent is at the end of his rope.

And many times a structured environment helps a kid like that out.

[cherokeeprogressive]

125. Surely you can have habits and have a roof. As long as you provide for said roof yourself.

Lots of young pot smokers will never reach that stage. They've been given too much easy stuff. They're spoiled to the point that they don't care about much but where the next hit is coming from or what avatar they want to use for their internet video game.

[PassingFair]

135. But sending him off to WAR will?

:crazy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5059892&mesg_id=5059892

"First, Neely and other guards had been trained to the U.S. military’s traditional application of the Geneva Convention rules. They were put under great pressure to get rough with the prisoners and to violate the standards they learned. This placed the prison guards under unjustifiable mental stress and anxiety, and, as any person familiar with the vast psychological literature in the area (think of the Stanford Prison Experiment, for instance) would have anticipated produced abuses. Neely discusses at some length the notion of IRF (initial reaction force), a technique devised to brutalize or physically beat a detainee under the pretense that he required being physically subdued. The IRF approach was devised to use a perceived legal loophole in the prohibition on torture. Neely’s testimony makes clear that IRF was understood by everyone, including the prison guards who applied it, as a subterfuge for beating and mistreating prisoners—and that it had nothing to do with the need to preserve discipline and order in the prison."


Riiiiggghhhhttttt....put him in line for stuff like this.

GREAT idea!

[bdab1973]

148. Yes, we're all trained to beat people and violate the GC.

Before I came to Iraq, they said any time I saw an Iraqi, I should beat them, and then spit on their Quran. You know, basic common sense stuff. The military's cool that way because they train all their people to be brutal...but in a nice way.

(I'm being sarcastic).

[PassingFair]

214. Those guards didn't go there to be inhuman, either. They were following orders.

Sound familiar?

I'm not attacking you personally, you know.
I am just commenting on what happens when
you cede control to someone else.

[Cid_B]

221. FM 22-102: Wall to Wall Counseling

I remember that day in basic training as well...

[Trajan]

258. These are RARE cases ....

The greatest number of soldiers are quite honorable, and have never participated in such inhumanities, It is unfair to characterize ALL as this ...

In fact, it is a formal fallacy; Fallacy of Converse Accident - Hasty Generalization ...

Careless ...

[PassingFair]

259. What a strawman response.

I'm and not characterizing ALL soldiers
as ANYTHING.

I AM saying that they give up their
autonomy and put themselves in a position
where they can be exploited.

Best to avoid that if you can.

[Trajan]

260. Your statements stand on their own without your explanation

It is no Strawman to reveal your fallacious associations ...

You used references to the worst, specific case as an argument against the general case, with only a casual connection to 'giving up autonomy', and it should be obvious that anyone in ANY walk of life can be 'exploited' in some form or fashion, if they do not possess the fortitude to stand up to such exploitation ...

First: It is presumed that one gives up some autonomy when they join a regulated service of most any type .. Including the Peace Corp .... It is a given this is true ...

Second: NO soldier can violate laws, even if ordered to do so .... When they violate national or international law, they are themselves responsible for their behavior as are those who ordered any such behavior ...

It is patently unfair to paint all soldiers as stark raving lunatics, when the truth is: very few ever commit such sordid crimes ...

Most who serve have never fired a gun in combat ....

Strawman ? ... hardly ....

[PassingFair]

262. Again, I have NOT "painted all soldiers as stark raving lunatics".

And I guarantee you, that in my walk
of life, I will NEVER be asked to anally
rape prisoners...or drop a bomb on a civilian
population...or accidentally gun down a family
at a checkpoint.

Won't happen.

And I would never encourage my children
to, either.

We can be drawn into situations against our
will, but I won't volunteer to put myself in
a bad position unless there was NO alternative.

And by the way, people in the Peace Corp
are not there to wage war.

[Trajan]

263. EVERY reference you present ...

Is an extremely negative criminal action ... Not a single positive reference ....

I presented no Strawman .... but you are presenting a converse accident fallacy ...

We are done ....

[etherealtruth]

210. As a parent, I can appreciate your position

there is absolutely nothing wrong (and everything right) about wanting to see your child become a productive member of society. That's NOT keeping up with the Jones' that is contributing to the world in which we all live.

I find our drug laws ridiculous (and in many cases barbaric), with that said, I do not want to see any of my children using drugs recreationally (yes that includes alcohol, tobacco ... ) with any regularity.

The good news is that your child is still young, some kids just take a little longer to get it together.

Lots of luck to both of you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

265. That's some funny shit.

[PassingFair]

79. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5062120&mesg_id=5062120

Personally, I would rather have him on my couch.

[Regret My New Name]

124. Charge him rent or kick him out...

He'll adapt. :P Maybe that means he'll join the military or maybe it means he'll get a job and get by.. Then maybe someday he will decide he wants an education.

[Sequoia]

251. I don't think that would be a good idea.

Once upon a time there were three brothers. The eldest wanted to see the world and seek his fortune. His father gave his blessing and a sack of cash and sent him off. The 2nd son wanted to go to the university and learn how to save the world. The father gave his blessing and a donkey with cart and sent him off. The youngest son, Hans, who preferred to sit under a tree chewing on a piece of grass and think about life had no such ambition as his brothers. His father cursed him and called him a lazy bum. One day while the youngest son sat under the tree watching two birds feed their young a mean ole giant came stomping through the land. Clever Hans quickly made use of his hands and when the giant came stomping to gobble up the sheep and smash his house Hans threw a grass basket over his head and lit it up. The giant went screaming away and jumped in the water nearby. The water became hot and Hans had himself a hot spring which was visited by people near and far for its medicanial quality. Hans became quite weathly and married the fariest maiden in all the land.

AND THEY ALL LIVED HAPPLILY EVER AFTER.

THE END.

[Trajan]

257. LMFAO ....

Yeah ... your right ....

Even better ; I am quitting my job, and going to find my some straw and a tree ....

[Believing Is Art]

16. Can she find a middle ground?

Is there any way that you could convince her to accept the scholarship and join the National Guard or an ROTC program? I was in engineering and I knew people who were in the National Guard or the ROTC while going to school. Let her know that she can do both, and that if she's in college, especially in engineering, she'll be in a lot better position for assignments.

[kitfalbo]

17. Um....

Why not have her go to college join the first year, become an officer with an engineering degree and have seniority in pay?

This is the usual approach for smart applicants.

[Sydnie]

18. Oh dear Greenbriar

I am so sorry to hear that she made this choice against your wishes. Both of my children know that I wouldn't be pleased if they did something like this. I won't even condone them dating someone in ROTC!

Let the anger pass then talk to her again about how tough it is for a woman in the military. Tell her to get her degree first and if she still wants to do this thing, she can join as an officer with a degree in engineering. You still have some time before the end of the school year to help her change her mind ... once the anger passes.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[BlooInBloo]

19. DOH!

:hug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. She'll be Sooorrrrrryyy!

As was shouted at me and the other new recruits as we arrived at MCRD San Diego.

Truer words were never spoken.

[Joey Liberal]

250. I have to agree

Once the stress monsters in the brown round smokey the bear hats get in her face, she'll be sorry. But it is nothing that millions of other Army trainees haven't been subjected to before. And Army basic ain't what it used to be. The Marines still have a tough boot camp.

[aquart]

22. She turned down a scholarship for the army?

Hugs. BIG hugs.

[Horse with no Name]

23. Uck.

If nothing else, make sure she knows this one thing.
She has the RIGHT to leave boot camp at any time if she does not like it and she does NOT have to fulfill her obligation until AFTER boot camp is finished. That is something the recruiters won't tell you but it is the truth (my brother is a Drill Instructor so I know of what I speak).
Have you shown her the statistics on rape/suicide in the military?
I'm in awe of your restraint. My daughters would have to join over my dead body. And I mean that. Literally.
:hug:

[BlooInBloo]

25. Oh wow - had no idea. I assumed that you were committed upon signing the papers.

[Horse with no Name]

28. Nope. They won't tell you that either.

There is a BRIEF period of time after you finish boot camp that the window still exists, however, it is so small that you might as well not even mention it.

[BlooInBloo]

31. Good to know.

[Eryemil]

72. I have to agree. There's almost nothing I wouldn't do to keep my children from that

Specially a female, she's likely to be raped as it is. The statistics for women in military service are eye-goungingly horrific.

[Love Bug]

84. I don't think that's true

Once you take the oath you're in and that happens before you reach bootcamp. That was my experience. I'd like to hear the other vets on this in case I'm wrong.

Now if someone turns out to be unfit, physically or mentally, during bootcamp they will let them go. At least that is what they did in my day. I don't know how it is now with the era of stop-loss and sending disabled solders back into duty. At no time have I ever heard that someone can just leave if they don't like it.

Remember the movie "Private Benjamin"? I saw that in a theatre full of GIs and when they got to the scene where the recruiter told Benjamin she could just leave if she didn't like it I thought they were going to tear the seats out and heave them at the screen.

I think your DI brother is pulling your leg.

[noamnety]

99. Thanks for this post.

I typed a similar one, then deleted it because I couldn't verify it with my DI buddy - he's away for a week.

You can deliberately flunk basic, but they will make your life hell for it, and keep you in for a number of cycles - my experience was that you can't just decide to walk away. I would want to see that "out" in writing before gambling my future on that one.

[Horse with no Name]

127. Nope.

You have to finish boot camp. Period.
Believe what you want. Do your own research.
The reason it ever even came up--was that my brother's wife joined the Navy. For what, I don't know. She didn't like the navy.
Obviously he couldn't fly to Chicago and tell her to quit--but he got word to her.
Now--considering he is a DI in the military, do you really think he would give his wife wrong advice? Encourage her to go AWOL?
Somehow, I don't think so.

[Love Bug]

215. Ok, I did some checking and here is what I found

It sounds like a soldier can get an Entry Level Separation and here is the procedure:

United States Army
Basic Training Operating Instructions

Entry-Level Separation (ELS)

1. Reference: TRADOC REG 350-6; AR 600-35, Chapter 11

2. No private will be ELS’d prior to his 4th week of training unless he is highly disruptive or suicidal. In this event, the battalion commander may approve the ELS.

3. The platoon sergeant will maintain an accurate written record of counseling on each private from the first day of assignment on DA Form 4856. Most separations require a minimum of TWO counseling statements; an initial one to put the private on notice and a second one to document a second instance of substandard duty or act of misconduct. See paragraph 1-18a, AR 635-200. Relate counseling to the Army Values. See Annex AU.

4. Counselings must be accurate and specific to identify the private’s unsatisfactory performance and/or misconduct. The counselings must show how the private is particularly substandard and that it is not just performance/conduct that can reasonably be expected from a basic trainee.

5. The following paragraph should be used on all counseling statements which involve substandard duty performance and/or misconduct. It meets the requirements for pre-initiation counseling for most administrative separation actions (“Magic words”).

a. You have been counseled for your (unsatisfactory duty performance and or misconduct). If your performance and/or conduct does not improve, you may be administratively discharged under the provision of AR 635-200 (indicate the appropriate chapter. A private can be processed for separation under more than one chapter). This separation could result in the issuance of a general discharge under honorable conditions, or an “Under other than honorable (OTH) conditions” discharge. As a result of such a characterization of service, you could lose your eligibility for veteran’s benefits and encounter substantial prejudice in civilian life. Finally, it is unlikely that you will be successful in getting a General or OTH discharge upgraded following your separation from the US Army.

b. If the private has received an enlistment bonus or has signed up for the Montgomery Era GI Bill, the further should be added: If you are separated for misconduct under Chapters 14 or 15; or at your own request under chapter 5, sections II-III, chapter 8 or 16, paragraphs 2 and 5 of AR 635-200; and will have served less than 20 months of a 24 month enlistment, or 30 months of a 36 month enlistment at the time of your separation, you will lose your eligibility for educational benefits under the new GI Bill. Any money deducted from your pay as a participant in the program will be forfeited as it is non-refundable. In addition, you may have to repay the unearned portion of any enlistment bonus.

c. These “magic words” are already pre-printed on some DA 4856s. If needed, ask the Training NCO to get some more from the Battalion Legal Clerk.

6. When the platoon sergeant begins considering that the private should be eliminated under ELS then the platoon sergeant should inform the 1SG and give the private’s ELS packet to the 1SG for review. All counseling statements, especially those with the “magic words” and the private’s Personal Data Cards will be included in the packet.

7. The 1SG will review the packet for completeness and accuracy. Before submitting the ELS packet, the 1SG will interview the private. If it is determined during the interview that the private should be transferred, the 1SG will recommend a platoon. The commander will determine if the private will be moved.

a. Upon notification that the private is being transferred, the platoon sergeant will collect all platoon equipment and instruct the private to pack all remaining equipment and bedding and move to the designated platoon. The commander will counsel the private explaining the rehabilitative transfer and the details of what is expected and the consequences of unsatisfactory job performance using the "magic words".

b. After the interview, if the 1SG concurs with an ELS, then the 1SG will ensure that the packet is accurate and complete. If the ELS is for National Guard or Army Reserve personnel, the 1SG will ensure that the private has an appointment with their Reserve Component Liaison NCO, 4-8118.

8. When the packet is complete, the 1SG will give the packet to the commander for review.

9. After the commander is satisfied with the ELS packet, he will inform the battalion commander and the Training NCO will submit the packet to the Battalion Commander’s secretary.

10. The battalion legal secretary will prepare an ELS checklist that the Training NCO will ensure is executed. See Appendix 1.

11. The private will not be pulled from training until approved by the battalion commander.

12. Once approved by the battalion commander, the platoon sergeant and Training NCO will pull the private from training and transfer the private to the Holding Detachment. The private must see JAG about his ELS and then attend an interview with his chain of command and the battalion commander prior to his final outprocessing from the company and the battalion.

13. If the private is transferred to the Holding Detachment, the Training NCO must coordinate with the Holding Company and the private must clear his platoon, company supply and clean and turn in his CIF equipment prior to discharge. The 1SG will visit privates in the Holding Detachment weekly.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arbasicpol/blels.htm

********

It looks to me like it's a little more involved than just saying "I quit" and would require quite a bit of insistance by the person seeking to leave. It also looks like they will make it as difficult as possible for the person leaving, too.

This is for the Army. I don't know what the other branches do.

[go west young man]

222. I did 4 years in the marines from 85-88.

Back then the rule was that once you raise your hand and swear the oath at the MEPS then you are officially US government property. Many people want out in boot camp but the military doesn't let you out. What they will do is let you incriminate yourself so they can put you into a different MOS and take away bonus'. They kept the stoner's awake for a few days and when they finally admit having lied about smoking weed they could put them where they need them. In the infantry. The would lose their primary MOS and their bonus' and guaranteed promotions. No one would attempt all the things listed in your post after boot camp as they would be either too motivated by then or intimidated and afraid. Before MEPS there is time to change ones mind. The recruiters won't let ya know that of course. They are desperate to make their quotas.

[Warpy]

24. She probably crunched the numbers and realized

the scholarship wouldn't pay enough of her way to go to school, and there aren't enough jobs to go around for college students as it is.

Maybe there will be a fluke and the army will realize she's got brains and talent and they'll send her to engineering school.

Stranger things have happened.

[greenbriar]

29. I think the money is part of it

my hubby ... her daddy is kind of gruff at times and they butt heads quite often and I think some of it is to get away from him


she also sees her uncle (he is close to her age) having the "time of his life" and thinks it would be fun

[tammywammy]

200. If she was using joining the Army as partly an excuse to get away from her father

why would she have him sign the papers for her enlistment?

[Retired AF Dem]

My wife wore combat boots in the army

This year will mark 33 years of marriage. She is the most wonderful woman I ever met. The Army did her no harm.

[noamnety]

27. Sounds like she is in the delayed entry program right now.

She does NOT have to report, if she's signed up for DEP, which means this is a done deal for her emotionally, but legally it's not.

That's an important detail.

I think if you tell her not to go, she will dig her feet in further and just resent it. At this point you might be better off talking about related options. I'd push the advantages of doing ROTC in college instead of enlisting right away, because then when she finishes college the army can pay off any outstanding loans AND she can work toward the GI bill for grad school. In the end, financially, she'd be in a better position. And it puts her in a position where she could do what my husband does - work on an army post as an engineer, which pays about 4 times more than what the enlisted folks are making - and they actually picked up his entire tab for grad school without him ever enlisting. The option is there to serve overseas, but also the option is there for him to walk away if he ever wants. (I doubt he will, he's got 20 years in now, but having the option puts you in a whole different mindset.)

More hardcore antirecruitment stuff would come from watching the winter soldier testimonies online, and The Ground Truth. And please - get her signed up for a women's self-defense course before she reports, if there's no talking her out of enlisting.

[greenbriar]

33. thank you for that info

I will suggest that when I can calmly talk with her

[Brooklyns_Finest]

30. Cool

I joined the Marine Corp at 18. I told my parents about it 2 weeks after I signed the contract and took the oath. My dad was accepting, but my mom did not like it. As a parent you have to accept your children's choices. She sounds like a smart kid. If she gets a good MOS, it can parlay to a very good job after her enlistment. She can also go to college on the GI Bill after her 4 years. She should be around 22 when her enlistment is up; still young enough to go to college without feeling like an outsider, but old enough to avoid the pitfalls of the college party life.

Just caution her to be careful on base. I have seen many young girls report to duty with stars in their eyes, only to get impregnated by some retard who they work with.

P.S. Let me give you a little scoop. Even though she has enlisted and sign paperwork, if she decides not to go to basic training don't listen to what the recruiter tells you. Nothing is binding until after you complete basic training. There would be no record of her ever joining the military. My cousin chickened out of going to boot camp after enlisting in the corps (yeah he is a real doucebag), and the recruiter told him that his life would be over, that he would be considered a deserter, etc etc. Later we talked to a JAG guy and he confirmed that my cousin is in the clear. Your military career begins when you finish boot camp/basic training, not when you sign the contract.

[Ikonoklast]

32. If she's smart enough for an engineering scholarship

and set on joining the Army, why not have her inquire into getting an appointment to West Point?

[JerseygirlCT]

88. There's an idea... nt

[wtmusic]

34. At least we have a CinC with some brains.

She will get some valuable life experience and hopefully not see combat. And she can always go to engineering school later.

[RandySF]

35. I'm sorry for your disappointment

The military as a career has gotten a bad rap over the last eight years because we had a moron as commander-in-chief, but I still don't think there is a higher calling than wearing the uniform. I don't know how it works but perhaps she can join the Corps of Engineers. My last boss was in the Corps and now he is the Public Works Director for a City in the East Bay (the department includes the Engineering division).

[greenbriar]

37. HE is the operative word. I do NOT want my daughter doing this

call me sexist, but if she were a boy, I would still be scared about deployment and all that but not as scared!

I don't want my soft hearted smart compassionate baby girl coming back rough and tough like her uncle has become in his 1 year in service

[noamnety]

82. The people who are dismissing your gender concerns

have not read the stats on rape and sexual harassment for women in the military.

While I smiled a little at your concern that she will come back "tough" (I wish more women were tough!), concerns about her well-being around the other (male) troops are very valid, and that's what I would be concerned about. That's not an issue that any dude here bragging about "serving with honor" is in a position to address, imho.

You mentioned she liked the party sort of atmosphere on post. There were posts I was at (ones with infantry stationed there, as opposed to the defense language school, which was a little more civilized), where I was warned by the guys I trusted to stay out of the NCO club, because I would not be able to walk to the restroom without an escort unless I wanted to be grabbed and felt up on my way. Parts of the fun party scene will be off-limits if she doesn't have that uncle as her permanent escort; she doesn't understand that yet. And parts will be off-limits unless she's willing to accept the trade-off of being the second class toy-for-boys.

And parts of her professional army career will be off-limits to her in a way that the "I-served-with-honor-dudes" will never understand. There were times where my boss, a lieutenant colonel, told me flat out I was the most qualified to perform, but he was sending someone else, not me, because the people I would have to be dealing with were special forces and they weren't going to listen to me, cause I was female. Less qualified/knowledgeable people were sent in my place. I learned that the best way to get ahead was to accept that second class status and not make waves about it. And I watched women get passed over for promotion and the same LTC explained to me - because he trusted me - that it was because they had filed a harassment complaint in the past. Not even against him - in a previous position, but he'd seen it in their files. The reason he trusted me enough to tell me that was that I'd already copped on that you don't report harassment, overwhelming odds are it will hurt your career, not the person who did the harassment.

[greenbriar]

121. thank you

do you mind if I share that with my daughter?

[noamnety]

137. If you can find the right way to bring it up

please do.

I wasn't always the best feminist when I was in - I accepted a level of religious harassment, sexual harassment, and racism that I'm not proud of - against myself and others. I've written about it before - when I was the only woman in my unit for awhile, when we were traveling around together, it was expected that I'd be fine going with the guys to some pretty demeaning things, wet teeshirt contests and such, standing awkwardly while they all were ... the way guys are in that situation. The alternative was being the shithead who ruined everyone else's fun by insisting we go back for the night. When our DI crawled up in the ceiling to harass us recruits while we were showering, and we didn't know was he watching us or not but he claimed he was, none of us reported him.

When I found out the guys were tracking me with their thermal cameras, I didn't report that either.

I did get promoted quickly.

[OwnedByFerrets]

36. I was very upset when my SIL did the same thing last November....

but I am coming to grips with it. Its purely economic. And in this economy, how the hell can I argue with him. Hope it turns out ok for you.:loveya:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. I loved my time in the military and would have stayed in if not for becoming very sick.

I may work out just fine.

David

[spin]

39. The military can be a rewarding experience...

it can teach self discipline and responsibility and might lead to an interesting career. It can expose you to many different people and many different places.

Remember that not all military jobs involve combat and many are at the leading edge of technology.

I served in the Air Force during the Vietnam conflict. The training I received in electronics allowed me to find a career in the aerospace industry and work for a major firm for 37 years. I found the job interesting and challenging.

While in the service, I never left the states and was stationed in Biloxi Mississippi and Cape Cod Massachusetts. It was great duty in beautiful places. Of course I did luck out. I remember my military service as some of the best years of my life and I formed some very close friendships with other Airmen. Military friendships are often closer than civilian friendships.

And now we have a new leader who may avoid unnecessary wars.

I wish your daughter good luck and hopes she enjoys her service as much as I did.

Be sure to give her a hug when she comes home on leave.

[greenbriar]

40. are you a HE or a SHE?

that is my issue

[HughBeaumont]

43. Ma-Ma-Ma-MAAAAAALLLE!

And there are still two very unnecessary wars going on, ones that are still strongly supported by the "finish th' faiight" Bushite military brass despite there being a new President who wants to put an end to this MIC nonsense. Someone needs to tell these Petraeus-led assholes that they are to salute the new COMMANDER IN CHIEF, shut the FUCK up and do what he says, goddamnit. You don't live under the Bushpire anymore, idiots. We don't WANT this war.

[MajorChode]

66. So if your daughter were a son you wouldn't mind?

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

The military is not for everyone, but it definitely beats just hanging out for a few years. The vast majority of people who spend a few years in the military have no regrets and get lifelong value from the experience. Not all kids are ready or want to go to college right out of HS, and trying to force that issue doesn't do anyone any good.

[GreenPartyVoter]

93. It does though, if you factor in sexual assualt by fellow service members.

[MajorChode]

102. But you'd rather she go to college?

You do realize that sexual assault is more prevalent in college and universities than it is in the military, right?

[bdab1973]

104. I posted this somewhere else in this thread...

Rape, sexual assault and harassment are more prevalent in college than the military. I know several close female friends and family members that were raped in college...one was raped twice. I do not know anyone who had been raped in the military.

[GreenPartyVoter]

106. Yeah been there, done that. But the debate was over why there would be a different

level of concern over females vs males entering the service, not on whether the service has more assaults than college.

[MajorChode]

112. You mean there are places out there where men get sexually assaulted more than women?

Please tell me where these places are!

Anytime young females come in to contact with males there is always the risk of sexual assault. This is true in churches, the military, college, social groupings, the workplace, and the list goes on and on. So if you want to make it a debate between say the military and locking your daughter in a dark room until she hits about 40, then yes there is considerably more risk. However, the military is not particularly more risky in this regard than many other things, and the perpetrators have a much higher risk of being brought to justice.

The inference I made was the OP favored the daughter going to college vs the military, so I'm not sure how you got on some other track.

[GreenPartyVoter]

114. The son vs. daughter thing came up and I offered a best guess why it made a difference

It wasn't a perfect theory. Just a guess.

[noamnety]

120. Your post is not accurate.

Assault rates are higher in the military than the civilian world. (One of the obvious causes is the culture of aggression and power as keystones of masculinity).

Do you have statistics to support your statement to the contrary?

Do you have statistics to support the notion that perpetrators have a higher risk of being brought to justice? (Not that it's anything to brag about in the civilian world - in both cases, the rate of jail time is negligible, so this is admittedly a bit like comparing the benefits of eating 50 calories a day to eating 75 calories a day.)

[bdab1973]

113. I think this girl will be fine

There are lots of women that serve and have great experiences. Sexual assaults are always a risk for women, no matter where they work, live or go to college.

[GreenPartyVoter]

115. True, I know some women who served and have nothing but the best to say about it. :^)

[bdab1973]

89. I have several friends I serve with that are female...

They have had exceptional careers and have done well. Some separated once their commitment was up, others are still in. You also need to know that the military has severely cracked down on sexual harassment and assault in recent years. Commanders don't tolerate it at all, and I've seen several people get sentenced to long prison terms for stuff like that.

I think your daughter will be fine. Having been in both the military and in college, she would have been equally vulnerable to assault, rape and harassment in college as well. It's a very bad problem in all aspects of our society, not just the military.

[noamnety]

107. Personal anecdotes vs. statistics

That's great that you have several women friends in the military who have done okay.

1. This does not negate the statistics.
2. You are acting as if they would have confided in you if they had been assaulted or harassed. Most women would not. Most women you know who have been assaulted have not told you - that's the way of the world. The victims are for the most part invisible, and if they were assaulted or harassed and had exceptional careers, it was in part because of their habit of not talking about it.

Do you have any actual data to back up your assertion that sexual harassment and assault are down in recent years?

"Report: Sexual assault of women soldiers on rise in US military" http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0319/p99s01-duts.html

"Sexual assault in military 'jaw-dropping,' lawmaker says" "Women serving in the U.S. military today are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire in Iraq. ... In 2007, Harman said, only 181 out of 2,212 reports of military sexual assaults, or 8 percent, were referred to courts martial. By comparison, she said, 40 percent of those arrested in the civilian world on such charges are prosecuted." (And those are only the reported cases.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/31/military.sexabuse/index.html

[bdab1973]

118. 80% of all statistics are made up on the spot...

Statistics are great, but often misleading because they are often used out of context.

The number you reported...8%...is primarily due to the fact that the US military allows women to report sexual assault without pressing charges. They do this to at least allow the victim the chance to have medical and counseling assistance. The civilian courts do not have this sort of thing. So the only numbers the US courts deal with are rapes that are actually reported to law enforcement. The military number includes all reported sexual assaults, including those that were not referred to law enforcement. I think if you looked at the number of military cases that were actually referred to law enforcement, you'd see an equivalent or higher percentage that are prosecuted. The reason why the civilian numbers look higher are because they only include cases that are reported to law enforcement but leave out all the sexual assaults that go unreported completely.

As you know, most women do NOT report their assaults. The ground breaking thing about the military program is their system allows women to retain confidentiality and still seek assistance, whereas the civilian system does not.

Another reason why the military seems to have a disproportionately higher rate of sexual assault is because the military has greater control over finding out and reporting those sort of things. Not only do they report cases reported to law enforcement, they also report (albeit without names) cases not referred, that likely would have remained unknown had it happened in the civilian world.

Being an officer I know for a fact that the military aggressively pursues those who commit sexual crimes. Even if the case is not referred to a courts martial, the individual can still receive non-judicial punishment such as an article 15. So if the JAG does not have the evidence to try the individual, the commander of that individual can still punish him even without overwhelming evidence. I've seen it happen in many cases. Rarely has there been a case on the base I am assigned to where someone was accused of sexual misconduct and nothing happened. The only times that happens is if there is fairly substantial evidence of false reporting (ie, the female is trying to use the system). It doesn't happen often. Nearly every case that is referred to the military justice system is resolved, and most of the time the individuals are discharged from the military and in many cases serve jail time.

In all the cases of my civilian friends and family that had been raped, one ONE of the several I know reported the assault. And the civilian court didn't even indict the guy...he walked scott free because the police didn't want to do anything about it. The other 3 didn't even report it...I only know because they confided in me.

So be careful about statistics. They'll bite you in the butt unless you understand what they really mean.

[MajorChode]

133. One additional thing is...

That if the crime is committed off-base, the military will refer the case for civilian prosecution. So this results in cases that are reported, but not referred to court martial. Once the offender has been prosecuted through the civilian system, they can't be tried in the military courts for the same offense, however they will most certainly be discharged administratively due to a felony conviction.

So just because a case was reported to military authorities and didn't result in a court martial doesn't mean that justice wasn't served.

Statistics on these matters can be very difficult to analyze because the vast majority of women in the military are between the ages of 18 and 40. So to analyze the statistics in any meaningful way you would have to compare civilian women of the same age group. From what data I have seen, it appears to me that women are far more safer from sexual assault inside the military than outside and military members who committ sexual assaults are far more likely to be convicted for those offenses.

The media often sensationalizes the stories of women who suffer sexual assaults while in the military, but so do they sensationalize plane crashes. That doesn't mean travel by airline is more unsafe than other modes of transportation.

[GA_ArmyVet]

255. Not a hundred percent accurate.

1. If the a soldier committed the act on or off post, it is not referred to civilian authority. It is run as a joint investigation with US Army CID as the Lead Agent usually (although it is a decision made based on each case). CID usually takes the lead since it has one of only a few accredited Forensic labs in the US. It really is a premier lab. Their DNA and trace evidence sections are hard to beat. Additionally, DNA testing the amount of items in a rape case can run into the tens of thousands of dollars and CID's lab will test on every case, while many local agencies simply cannot afford to do it.

2. Double Jeopardy does not apply to if he was convicted in state court. The UCMJ is Federal. Each entity, state and fed, is a sovereign entity, and as such may try an individual for the same act if it violated laws in both jurisdictions. Mike Vick case is a prime example, same incident violated state and federal laws. That being said, plea bargains are often reached if the subject was convicted and the second entity deems the sentence appropriate.

[MajorChode]

272. I would think it would depend on the crime

You seem to be well informed on the subject, but as far as sexual assaults go they run a fairly large spectrum that span inappropriate touching to torture, rape and murder. So it seems logical to assume that the military wouldn't get involved in lesser cases and simply allow local law enforcement to handle them and take administrative action as appropriate. My point was the 8% figure is meaningless for determining how many cases actually saw justice because it doesn't include local prosecutions.

My statement on double jeopardy was accurate. A person can't be convicted locally and under the UCMJ for the same offense. This is stated quite clearly by the 5th amendment and the Constitution most certainly trumps the UCMJ and state law as far as the 5th amendment goes. While your claim regarding separate charges for the same act is accurate, it doesn't contradict my assertion.

[GA_ArmyVet]

298. I have worked my share of Sexual Assaults

in the military. But no we don't give lesser case to local authorities (in general, I am sure there are some exceptions). After APG and Tailhook, there are very specific DOD directives that dictate our repsonse.

The lesson on state courts and federal courts was a lesson I was taught in Criminal Justice and Law Classes

A short breakdown is posted here:

The judicial system in the United States is unique insofar as it is actually made up of two
different court systems: (1) the federal court system and (2) the court systems of each of the 50
states. While each court system is responsible for hearing certain types of cases, neither is
completely independent of the other and both systems often interact with each other.

The U.S. Constitution created a governmental structure for the United States
known as federalism. Federalism refers to a sharing of powers between the central
(federal), or United States government, and the governments of each of the individual 50
states. The Constitution gives certain powers to the federal government and reserves the
rest to the states. Therefore, while the Constitution states that the federal government is
supreme with regard to those powers expressly or implicitly delegated to it, the states
remain supreme in matters reserved to them. This supremacy of each government in its
own sphere is known as "separate sovereignty," or each government being sovereign in its
own right.
Likewise, both the federal and state governments need their own court systems in
order to apply and interpret their laws. Furthermore, both the federal and state
constitutions attempt to do this by specifically spelling out the jurisdiction of their
respective court system.

You are correct that he can not be tried for the same offense. But he can be tried by State Court for the state offense of Rape, and in Federal Courts System (of which US Military Courts Martial are a part) for the Federal Offense of Rape, separate charges by different Sovereign entities.

[MajorChode]

299. My experience and observations have been that...

female members of the military are far safer on the inside than they would be if placed in an employment or college situation where they interact with a large number of males with similar age groups.

The cold reality is that sexual assaults are endemic to American society, especially with younger people. The military is not immune to that problem, but I have not seen any statistics that suggest the problem is greater once those statistics are placed into proper perspective. The fact is the military screens and constantly monitors all of it's applicants and contractors and culls those with serious convictions, and most colleges and universities don't. Law enforcement and criminal prosecution are far better inside US bases and posts than outside. There's lots of reasons why a woman is safer on a US base, and I think the statistics do support that if properly considered.

[MajorChode]

130. The article you posted was full of anecdotes and the statistics are meaningless

Harman compares "reports" of sexual assaults in the military vs "arrests" in the civilian world?

How can you even compare those two things?

Victims are invisible outside the military also. Only about 16% of rapes are reported to the police:
http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php

Of those 16%, how many do you thing result in arrests? Half would be an extremely optimistic guess, so you're down to less than 8% of reported rapes in the civilian world and far less than half of those result in conviction.

So do you really think women are safer outside the military? Perhaps you'd best dig a bit deeper into the statistics and try to compare apples with apples.

[DKRC]

41. Hugs for you

:hug: :hug: :hug: :cry: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[carlyhippy]

44. did she join the national guard?

or the army full time? If it's not set in stone yet, please talk to her about joining the ROTC program at her college....she will have to give some time to the military after OCS if she continues that route, but there is a scholarship available for ROTC, she would be an officer after collge, she would have I think a military science degree as well as whatever else she majors in....if she is bent on joining the military, this may be an option.

[MADem]

45. Is she going to college on an ROTC scholarship?

If she's underage, it's possible to void the contract. Really.

They'll try to tell you it isn't possible, but trust me, it is.

[RiverStone]

50. Sending ya lots of empathy

May she chose an occupational emphasis (i.e. computers/intelligence) which will keep her in a relatively safe scenerio.

And you do have less to worry about with Prez Obama at the helm.

[old mark]

54. Maybe she wanted to do it.

Maybe you should support her decision.

mark

[Marrah_G]

58. why not ROTC?

[LeftyMom]

67. Your husband signed your child over to the Army without talking to you about it?

File for divorce. A couple can't function when one makes huge life decisions, let alone huge life decisions involving their mutual children, without consulting the other.

[Cid_B]

69. If she is as smart as you say...

She'll be fine. Once she does a few years she can go Green to Gold or just OCS or stay with the enlistment.

Ive got an enlisted senior cook right now with the highest test scores in our unit and a masters degree and he is happy as a clam.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

71. Damn. What part of the country are you in?

:grouphug:
Has she, or would you like for her to, speak with some women that have been in?

These kids have no earthly idea of the reality and if it's not already too late, I'd say do anything you can to stop this.

[57_TomCat]

73. I volunteered...

right out of high school after graduating early. I passed on a scholarship to join. I served and honor all that have made the sacrifice to serve. It was, in my opinion the smartest thing I did during those early years. It is a worthy choice.

The military, even in these times is a honorable profession. I wish her good fortune and thank her for her service.

[Cid_B]

74. Damn right...

NT needed...

[SubOdeon]

245. Well said!

There is honor and reward in the service, regardless of what's going on in Washington D.C.

[Greyhound]

75. If it's not too late, show her this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5062120&mesg_id=5063554

[Vinca]

76. I don't think it's the end of the world. If she pursues engineering

it could be an interesting career in the service of her country. (If that's not her plan, I'd probably strangle hubby.)

[TexasObserver]

78. You do need hugs!

I know many parents are proud if their child chooses to join, but I'm in the group of parents who was in the military, and knows the military can be used and abused by politicians for bad reasons. I don't wish my children to serve, so I fully understand what you're agonizing over.

[bdamomma]

80. Won a scholarship and enlisted in the Army??

makes no sense but it is her decision.

[jody]

81. Given Commander in Chief Obama's order to send more troops to Afghanistan, shouldn't DUers support

enlistment in the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force?

[lonestarnot]

83. So does that mean all of your children are in the military now?

[greenbriar]

122. I only have the ONE child

my baby girl (17 years old)

[lonestarnot]

223. Ohs nos!

:hug: I am sorry greenbriar! :hug:

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

85. There's nothing wrong with the service.

My cousin was a truck driver in the National Guard (got out just before 9/11), and she loved the experience. I'm sure your daughter will be fine. It's not like she's serving under Killy McDouchebag.

:hug:

[ThomWV]

86. You better get off your high horse and support her in her decision, cause it was her decision

And the last thing she needs right now is a mother who is pissing and moaning to undercut a decision she can not get out from under. Your daughter stood up, now its time for you to do the same. Besides that, the enlistment is not about you - its about her. As for your husband, possibly he takes a more responsible view of the defense of his country than you. Maybe he thinks it is every citizens duty to serve in the defense of their country, not the responsibility of some ethereal 'others'.

[GreenPartyVoter]

94. Of course enlistment involves the parents. Who do you think they give the flags to

at the funerals for these kids?

Not slamming the service here. Most of the guys in my family served. Just saying that this is surely a factor in GB's concern, esp in light of what our military has been put through under **.

[bdab1973]

95. They give the flag to the most immediate surviving family member...spouse, children, etc

My parents had no say in whether I joined or not...just opinions.

I agree with the post above...just let her go. She likely made the decision because it was HER decision and not her mother's.

[GreenPartyVoter]

96. I'm not saying don't let her go. I just felt the high horse speech was pretty harsh. It hurts

knowing your baby is going out into harm's way, even when it's for a good cause. I would feel worried about my kids in any job that puts them in danger, whether it's military, police, fire fighter, whatever. :)

[bdab1973]

98. I'm also thinking about the daughter's feelings...

I would be appalled if my mom got online and acted as though a decision I made was the biggest sin against her...

[GreenPartyVoter]

100. It may be more about the husband than the daughter, though.

[bdab1973]

101. Perhaps the husband understood his daughter better than the mother does...

She's posted on here before about this subject, and to me, it appears she wants to be the one to determine her daughter's future, rather than her daughter figuring that out on her own.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. Oh good grief, why?

I'd be upset, too. Sorry.

[TwilightGardener]

90. It's OK. Many kids benefit from their time in the service--and she'll get the GI bill

for when she wants to attend school. Maybe she's just not sure what she wants to do yet, and the military is a good way to find out what interests you and doesn't interest you at that age, without blowing tuition money--and while earning a paycheck. Good luck to her.

edit to add: My husband joined the Air Force at the age of 22, and his parents openly mocked his decision and couldn't conceal their disappointment that their son with a college degree would be a lowly enlisted grunt. 17 years and a successful career later, they are proud of him, and so am I. If she's made her decision, then support her--there's no point in making her feel bad.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Oh damn

PM me if you need anything.

One of my good friend's son is being stop lossed to Afghanistan. First they told him he was going to Japan and then they changed their mind and said Afghanistan. She is devastated.

:hug:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

92. From what you've said, she's under 18? Your husband co-signed for her without your knowledge? Yikes!

[bdab1973]

97. Joining the military isn't the end of the world...

I know far more people that have benefitted from their service than those that did not. I find it interesting the number of people that feel they need to pity me or say "I'm sorry" when I tell them I'm getting deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. Please, withhold your pity, because although I don't LIKE being in 120 degree heat and being away from family and friends, I understand it's part of the job and I'm not going to complain about it. That's from someone who's been deployed to OIF/OEF four times already.

I will also add that based on what I've read in your posts, your daughter likely made the decision because it was HER decision, and probably is rebelling against what she may perceive to be a parent that wants to micromanage her life and make her decisions for her. I was lucky because for the most part, my parents supported whatever I wanted to do, so long as it was legal. When I wanted to join the military, they did ask if I thought it through, but in the end they supported me and said good luck.

My mom doesn't like me being deployed, but at the same time she doesn't overreact and demand that I get out of the service because she said so. Nor does she go online to belittle my decisions to serve. Instead she remains very supportive to this very day, and featured my service in her church's news bulletin. I know she worries about my safety, but she's also immensely proud of what I have achieved on my own, and she is glad I am doing what I enjoy and have a good career.

I won't join the chorus and offer you condolences, because your daughter is on the threshold of adulthood...let her grow up and make her decisions, and for once maybe stand behind her. It will pay off in the long run. The more you harp on her and tell her she's wrong, the more she'll do things against your wishes. It's her way of showing you she's independent.

I wish her luck in the future. The military will offer her some interesting experiences. I know I have done things that most people would never do, and I don't mean simply combat either. I mean flying in a formation of 8 airplanes at night, 500 feet above the ground, wearing night vision goggles, and having people jump out the back of your airplane...then landing that very same cargo airplane on an airstrip most large aircraft couldn't land on even in the day. One day I'll have a civilian job...but I'll always look back on my military time as something unique.

[Greyhound]

140. It certainly could well be the end of hers and her mothers and her fathers.

Or it can also be an introduction into an whole new world most likely never imagined, certainly never mentioned by the recruiters. A world of ceaseless pain, drugs, stares, and night terrors for the next 50, 60, 70, years.

Or maybe it will be the return to the world she will never fit into again, the one where she never feels safe, where every loud noise, an unexpected smell, a harmless look, could cause the moment of sheer terror and memory.

Let's be honest about it, there's a reason the military wants young people. It is the culmination of 6,000 years experience in mental conditioning.

All wars are crimes and the casualty rate of every war is 100%.

[bdab1973]

141. I don't consider myself a casualty

I've been shot at as well, and mortared. Just because you're in the military doesn't mean you'll get PTSD.

The only time I flinch is when I hear controlled dets going off in the nearby EOD pits...

To tell you the truth, the only occupational fear I ever acquired was when I was working a civilian job...I was on an oil rig as a geological lab team recovering core samples, and I was near an electrical box that arced out like you wouldn't believe. I have hated working with all things electrical ever since then.

[Greyhound]

147. According to my grandfather, a 38 year Naval veteran of three wars,

being in a war zone is negatively life altering, there's just no way around it (the 100% casualty rate comes from him). That is the casualty aspect, you are not the person you would have been without that traumatic experience. Human beings just can't go through the sights, sounds, and smells of battle without it deeply effecting you forever.

PTSD is only one of the possible outcomes, and obviously most that survive the experience go on with their lives, but trauma is trauma. There is no informed consent when joining, because it is not possible to understand what is going to happen around and possibly to you.

BTW, it was the old man that talked me out of going in.

Edit; I just remembered another thing he told me that stuck, being in battle forever separates you from everybody that hasn't.

Edit #2; I just saw on another post that you are in the AF. He said if you do go, go into the Air Force, you have the best chance of coming home whole with them.

[bdab1973]

158. There is a truth to the battle thing...

I have been shot at on a few occasions. Most in the USAF, even the ones here, have not. And I find it curious that those who haven't been engaged in any form of combat seem to be the most anxious to call themselves "warriors" of some type...like "Comm warriors" or "combat finance" or along those lines. I will say that being shot at is over-rated.

[Greyhound]

170. LOL! No argument there.

:rofl:

About those "warriors", I've noticed the same thing.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

270. I disagree.

While being in a war zone wasn't my best experience in the military, I definitely wouldn't call it negative. I've been far more negatively affected by the traumatic things I have seen since leaving the military. Every time I think of my experiences in the military I smile. Certain things that I have seen since give me cold chills and make my blood pressure go through the roof. I felt well informed when I joined the military, of course I came from a family of paratroopers, two of whom jumped into Normandy on D-Day so my experience isn't typical.

David

[tabasco]

103. I encourage young people to join the military

when we have responsible national leadership.

Now that most of the criminal Bush cabal has been ousted, it's a good time to serve.

It is more than likely she will meet some great people and have some very rewarding experiences.

[noamnety]

108. I have to disagree with that.

We have been in imperialistic wars and interfering with countries where we had no business being under all presidents, republican and democrat. This will continue under Obama. (Hello Afghanistan)

[tabasco]

117. I said responsible national leadership, not a particular party.

LBJ is a war criminal too.

[noamnety]

119. I appreciate that disctinction.

I just can't think of any examples of past presidents who were entirely responsible when it came to using our military.

[Arugula Latte]

219. In the past several decades, the U.S. military has been used for bad rather than good

at an alarming ratio. The bad far, far outweighs the good. Democratic presidents or no ... The military is still largely misused to further U.S. corporate interests at the expense of the life and limbs of brown and yellow people.

Not to mention, the entire military-industrial complex has about done in our country for the little guy.

[bdab1973]

109. You do understand that military folks often serve under multiple administrations?

I first joined when Bush No. 1 was in office. Much of my career in the Army occurred while Clinton was in office. I joined the USAF while Clinton was in office. Bush No. 2 was elected while I was in pilot training. Now Obama is the CinC. Administrations come and go, but the military as a whole stays the same. Using your logic, I'd have to resign and then rejoin twice. Sorry, my service is to this nation, not a particular administration, and that goes for Dem or Repub. Serving only when one party is in office means you're only serving that party, not the country as a whole.

[bdab1973]

110. You do understand that military folks often serve under multiple administrations?

I first joined when Bush No. 1 was in office. Much of my career in the Army occurred while Clinton was in office. I joined the USAF while Clinton was in office. Bush No. 2 was elected while I was in pilot training. Now Obama is the CinC. Administrations come and go, but the military as a whole stays the same. Using your logic, I'd have to resign and then rejoin twice. Sorry, my service is to this nation, not a particular administration, and that goes for Dem or Repub. Serving only when one party is in office means you're only serving that party, not the country as a whole.

[tabasco]

116. Having served as both an enlisted man and officer in the infantry, under multiple Presidents,

I understand that quite well.

I did not encourage people to serve while the corrupt Bush cabal was in office.

If you don't like that, tough shit.

[greenbriar]

123. thank you all

I talked with her last night about the ROTC program, she seemed to take to the idea. I was very open and light with her as I wanted dialog and not arguments.

I need to clarify that this wasn't out of the blue..I knew she had been thinking about this for a long while, I just thought maybe it was a phase and it would blow over.

We have a lot to discuss, but you guys have given me some great starting points.

Thank you

[GreenPartyVoter]

126. Good luck, GB, and may Lil-GB thrive no matter where she goes. *hugs*

[bdab1973]

129. There are lots of programs to go from enlisted to officer

I did exactly that. ROTC, OCS and the service academies take a certain number of enlisted troops each year as well. So if she wants to be in the military, being an officer is a pretty good way to go.

[slackmaster]

128. She'll probably do very well in the Army

With a brain like hers, she's head and shoulders over most others who join.

[Fireweed247]

134. Does she ever want to have children?

Show her pictures of babies whose parents were exposed to depleted uranium.

[marshall]

136. Congrats! Best of luck to her

She'll get a great education and no doubt learn more in a year than those who piddle away their time in party schools.

[Arugula Latte]

139. Oh no! I'm so sorry.

:hug:

[Fireweed247]

142. What's with the army recruiters on this thread?

How could anyone encourage our youth to sign up for this bullshit war on terror?

Who hasn't read the stories about how the military is treated, from untested vaccines to making them pay for their uniform and their food in the hospital if they are hit with an RPG. Who doesn't know how the military are treated upon returning home, how they are tossed aside by their own government, how many of them end up homeless with PTSD. And what about Depleted Uranuim and Gulf War Syndrome....the way soldiers are exposed to all kinds of toxic crap and then lied to when they seek help for the symptoms. Why the hell would anyone join at this point in time unless they have been lied to/brainwashed? There is a reason they prey on the youth, because they don't know what's been really going on. But how do any grown adults, especially on this website, explain the behavior of actually encouraging the powers that be to use children as pawns in their global money making scheme?

If nothing else works- show her the poems on this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5062120
(and yes I wholeheartedly encourage doing whatever you can to talk her out of it. She is too young to realize the real evil that is happening under our government and military. She believes what she is doing is noble, defending the country but it is anything but. She is hopeful and full of life...but won't be for long if she continues on this path)

The American Way
Can you believe, the Hypocrisy
They're selling me, so I'll believe

Our nations tragedy, to be free
That's what they're telling me, yet no integrity

Do as they say, not as they do
It's not alright for you

Why are they, leading us astray
Guess it's their American way

We've heard it all before, the knock on the door
Its time we evened the score

I can't stand your misery, your philosophy
That you keep selling me

America is in jeopardy, why can't we really see
Revealing the mystery

Corporations, yes they hold the key, to their Democracy
No freedom really isn't free

They buy their way into our destiny, plant their seed
Fueling the fires of their greed

We need to run away, pray for a better day
Yes change our freedom, and the American way

[Wiley50]

179. I said the same thing upthread

Seems to be at least 3 of them, all with post counts under 400

[bdab1973]

183. I am not a recruiter.

[GA_ArmyVet]

209. Nor am I, Wiley.

I respect her views, and I understand her not wanting her child in the military.

I had no issues with that.

I had issues with the broad sterotyping of all of us servicemembers as Babykilling murderers. I take issue with it.
Other than that I don't care if anyone joins or not. But there are some good things in the service. I started as an E-1 and worked my way up. The service is not all negative. That being said, if my daughter joins, I would encourage Air Force or Coast guard as they provide better job skills to take across to the civilian job market.

[SubOdeon]

244. Just a lurking servicemember who decided to speak out

If that makes me a "recruiter" -- because I think there are a lot of misperceptions about the military and the Army, or because I don't want to see this Mom make a mistake that drives a wedge between herself and her daughter -- then I guess I am guilty as charged. Really, some of the awful folklore that gets passed on about the Army and the military is just that: awful folklore.

Our military is not responsible for where the ELECTED OFFICIALS send it, nor why. I suspect some people can't emotionally disconnect their dislike over what's happened in Washington D.C. these past eight years, with the military. The truth is the military is just a tool, and assumes the personality of the political men and women who wield it. Don't like what the Army or the Navy or the Air Force or the USMC are doing? Please take it up with your Congressperson or Senator. Taking it out on the military itself, or assuming servicepeople are 'bad' right along with the politicians, is simply unfair and inaccurate.

[roody]

145. Does she know about the rapes and murders of

women in the armed forces? Just one example
www.lavenajohnson.com

[Thickasabrick]

152. Hugs Greenbriar......the Army needs really smart and bright people

like your daughter. She could be a general one day!!! I know it's hard though....extra hug.

:hug:

[greenbriar]

198. those two "propagandist" posters need to stop posting in my thread they are wrong

about my feelings


I don't care if we were in peace time

I DO NOT WANT MY DAUGHTER in the military

DONE

END OF STORY



and if it is wrong for me to think this, I DO NOT CARE


if she were a he, I might feel differently

but

those that have served in the military in my family have all come home different and mostly NOT for the good

I DO NOT WANT THAT FOR MY BABY

[MajorChode]

205. Wow! What a childish post

Those that disagree with you are "propagandists", and you could care less what is right or wrong.

Now perhaps they are wrong about your "feelings", but what I see is disgust, displeasure, disapproval, and shame regarding your daughter's decision when it should be pride, approval, or at the very least respect and support. Whether you realize it or not, what your daughter needs from you are those last two things at a minimum. You also might want to start giving some serious thought as to why she made the decision in the first place without your biases and misconceptions clouding your judgement.

[demodonkey]

233. Wow! What a patronizing post

None of us has the right to tell Greenbriar what she "should" be thinking, feeling, or doing.

Greenbriar has the right to feel however she feels. It's her daughter, not yours and not mine.

And I could care less what you think of THIS post as well.

[bdab1973]

235. No, we don't have the "right", but..

when you post things like this on a public message board, you're inviting opinions and commentary from all sides of the table...

I didn't see any rule on this forum that states you may only respond if you agree 100% with the OP.

[demodonkey]

236. You can disagree without patronizing the OP by telling her what she "should" feel. nt

[MajorChode]

238. And just exactly how does that work?

Do you even know what "patronizing" means, or is this just a word you had a hankering to work in to your posts?

The OP was "patronizing" from her very first post in regards to her daughter. That pandora's box had already been opened.

[MajorChode]

237. No worries, my "feelings" are mutual

I could care less what you think of my post as well.

[Fireweed247]

217. FIGHT for her!

Trust your intuition!!!

She might not listen, but at least she will know you care and you will know you tried.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

264. Would you say the same thing to a woman who did not want her daughter having an abortion?

How far does one get to go when trying to stop another's decision?

[Fireweed247]

289. uhm, no, completely different situation

Military recruiters prey on the youth for a reason, and it is the parent's job to tell their children the truth and knowledge that they have gained in their years of experience. This 17 year old has been exposed to Bush/war on terror bullshit propaganda most of her waking years...she has been brainwashed. A mother has a moral obligation to tell the truth to her children and do what they can to protect them.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

227. Why would it be okay for a son and not for a daughter?

I could understand not wanting either in the military, but to have different standards based on your kid's gender is fucked up.

[MountainLaurel]

279. I'm guessing the concern has to do with

The high rate of sexual assault of female military personnel and how it is treated within the military. A son isn't going to have to carry a gun on her way to the latrine to avoid being raped by his colleagues, as many female soldiers have reported that they've had to do.

[bdab1973]

234. Please read:

First of all, what you want for your daughter and what she wants for herself might not be one and the same. In that case, you need to recognize this and support her decision, even if it wasn't the decision you would have made for her. She's 17, and on the cusp of being an adult. I think at that age, and where she is right now, she would probably resent your heavy-handed attempt to make life decisions for her.

I am not trying to hurt your feelings, but I'm trying to get you to understand that ANY parent that reacts this way is essentially smothering their son or daughter's ability for self-determination. How would you react if you were set on doing something, but another family member told you "hell no, I will NOT allow you to do that"? I'm sure you'll respond with "well, I would listen because they are trying to help me"...but you need to think further than that because if you were in your daughter's shoes, you might not see it that way.

Your dislike of the military is colored by your negative experience with it from other people's opinions. It's not necessarily based on reality, but your preconceptions instead. Trust me, if I wanted to find something negative about every career path out there, I could find a plethora of information to attempt and dissuade my kids from doing career A or career B. But the point is, it's not up to me to decide those things. About the only thing I will actively campaign against when it comes to my children is if they choose something that's illegal. Other than that, if they want to be an engineer, doctor, military officer, police officer...whatever they want to do, I'll stand behind them, regardless of my apprehensions of whether a certain career is safe or not.

To be honest, there are other career choices out there far more dangerous than the military. And even being in the "military" is subject to a number of other questions to determine just how dangerous it is. My job, flying airplanes, is more dangerous than someone sitting in a computer terminal, but less dangerous than the infantry. All that aside, I still don't consider my job life threatening in the least.

Your daughter needs to choose her own path. You can offer your own opinions, but in the end, she's gotta make the choices herself. So you can choose to either be behind her and supportive, or you can be combative and perhaps risk alienating her.

She may very well join the military and decide she doesn't like it, get out and then pursue a civilian career. Lots of people do that and there's nothing wrong with that. Others join and decide they do like it and want to stay and serve 20, 30 or more years. Either way, your daughter will be better served if she makes those decisions and not you.

For what it's worth, I have FOUR children...two step-daughters and two sons of my own. If any of them joined the military, I would honor their decisions. Likewise, if they chose not to join, I would be fine with that. Just so you know, I do understand where you are coming from.

[EFerrari]

268. If I can help you make calls or dig up information, you PM me.

If it were my daughter, I'd fight for her, flat out. :hug:

[kiranon]

203. female and ex Army officer - used GI Bill to go to law school

Some of the most wonderful people I've ever known, I met in the military. I needed the money to go to law school and thought it would be awful to be in the military. But, I grew up a lot and learned a lot especially how to function in a large organization. People in the military do not walk around wishing for war. It's a shock to learn a child has made that decision against our wishes but the best you can do is to support her decision. If she wants to get out of her choice later, there is always a way. I learned how to take care of myself. Talk to her and find out why she signed up and you may end up very proud of her even if not in favor of her decision. I also agree her Dad should not have done this without your consent as well. Met my husband while in the Army and we have been married over 30 years.

[tammywammy]

204. My grandfather, both my brothers and multiple friends (male and female) serve in the military

That's a tough decision to make. You should be proud that she's choosing to serve her country.

[greenbriar]

208. My father , two brothers, two brothers in law

and currently a brother in law


as well as all the brothers of my mother all served


3 of my mothers brothers never came home


my dad never spoke of his service during the Korean War

my oldest brother came home a drunk and an addict

my little brother blew out his knee


my brother in law currently serving has all but abandoned his two children under the age of 5 to have his "frat boy" atmosphere while serving

his language and attitude has also become something I do not recognize


SO

[tammywammy]

212. My grandfather fought in the Pacific during WWII and in the Korean War

I've had plenty of long discussions. He joined while he was 17 and served the entirety of the war.

Both my brothers turned out fine. I have a very close friend that's currently serving in the AF in Ecuador. I have a really close female friend in the Navy. There are other friends I've made over the years as well.

It's not always a bad thing to join the military.

[bdab1973]

230. Both grandfathers, grandmother, father, uncle and several cousins...

have all served in the military. None of them were worse off after the experience. I am sorry that perhaps your specific family members did not have a good experience in the military, but I would wager that's not the norm. I've been in 17 years, and the only negative thing I can think of is some hearing loss due to being around airplanes and helicopters for many years.

[Fireweed247]

216. 2 teen girls in Wash. Army barracks; 1 dead

A 16-year-old girl was found dead and another teenage girl was discovered unconscious in a barracks on this Army base south of Tacoma, the Army said Monday.
http://www.adn.com/nation/story/692476.html

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

226. What's the point of posting that?

Seriously.

[Fireweed247]

239. It illustrates how women are treated

by guys in the military.

[SubOdeon]

243. A gross and unfair generalization

Would you post a similar comment, if the perpetrators were minority civilians?

Look at your sentence again:

"It illustrates how women are treated by guys (insert minority here)"

I used to be based out of Ft. Lewis and I can only imagine how much this case is upsetting the people there, civilian and military both. Any time something like this happens, everyone in the Army groans and puts his or her head in their hands, wishing quick justice on the perps and hoping that the civilian world will understand that, in spite of the Army's best efforts, some soldiers still 'go wrong' just as some civilians always find a way to 'go wrong.'

Outright painting the entire military as bad or somehow implicated in this event, is just flat-out wrong.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

273. That's a pretty fucked up generalization

The same thing could have just as easily happened with guys not in the military.

[bdab1973]

231. Completely different circumstance...

The girls found in the dorms were civilian teenagers. Not female servicemembers. Hopefully whatever happened will be sorted out and any wrongdoing will be punished.

[Obamanaut]

254. Why did you not say the article said the girls were civilians? nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

266. While you are at it, why don't you post every story about young women....

....who are drugged and date raped at college.......I mean, if you want to have an honest comparison here.......

[krispos42]

218. Shoulda joined the Navy instead

Aside from corpsmen, how many sailors have died in Iraq or Afghanistan?


Besides, in the Navy your three hots and your cot go with you. And there's a distinct lack of sand, IEDs, and sniper fire on a warship.


Quick, interservice transfer! Interservice transfer!

[snooper2]

240. Well, she will be able to get VA home loans for life...

That's an upside :)

[Fireweed247]

241. here are some great MP3s you can play for her

Army DU Specialist turned whistleblower
Dr. Doug Rokke on Depleted Uranium
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/rokke-depleted_uranium-k19b.mp3

Dennis Kyne- Coming Home Damaged
http://www.archive.org/download/fayetteville-dk/dennis_kyne-veteran-DU.mp3

Sgt. Benderman
Will not re-deploy- All War is Wrong
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/sgt_benderman-k97b.mp3


Aidan Delgado on his Iraq experience
1 - What I saw in Iraq
http://www.archive.org/download/iraq_war_veteran/aidan_delgado1-k14.mp3
2 - Abu Ghraib
http://www.archive.org/download/iraq_war_veteran/aidan_delgado2-k129b.mp3
3 - War Makes Beasts of Men
http://www.archive.org/download/iraq_war_veteran/aidan_delgado3-k79b.mp3

[SubOdeon]

242. I'm in the Army, male, and I have a daughter too...

A few comments. Perhaps others have already covered this ground, but...

1) Your daughter is probably going to be making lots of choices throughout her life that you will disagree with. On the balance, the are far worse things she could be doing with her time, besides serving. Please be careful how you approach this with your child. If you come at her with anger or resentment or apathy, you risk alienating her. If this decision is as important to her as it is to you, I think this is one of those moments when you just have to say, "Honey, I disagree with the choice you've made, but I am thrilled that you're mature enough to make it!"

2) I've got a daughter of my own and I'd be excited (and nervous) if she decided to join the military. I'd spend a lot of time cautioning her and making sure I understood why she was making her choice. It's not a choice to be made on a whim. People who join on a whim sometimes get a rude awakening. It is tough, demanding, and often unpleasant. But with the toil and hardship, there is also much reward. As long as I knew my daughter knew what she was getting into, and wanted to proceed anyway, I'd be proud as hell.

3) Now more than ever our military needs bright, intelligent, capable young men and women in its ranks. If your daughter is as smart and able as you say she is, then I welcome her. An intelligent, thoughtful soldier is worth 50 dumbasses. What's her chosen MOS? There is more to the Army than just running around in the field shooting weapons.

4) When I joined I was amazed at the gender and racial diversity in the Army, at least on the Reserve side. Is your daughter Active, Reserve, Guard? My mentor is a female, a retired CW3 is whose footsteps I now follow as a WOC; I was a Sergeant before that, and now hope to earn my WO1 and eventually CW2. Some of the best, most capable people I've met in uniform have been female. Yes, your daughter will need to adjust to a slightly more coarse way of interacting with other people, but chances are if she's attended a public HS it won't be surprising to her. If your concern is abuse, I'd say there is no more or less chance of her being raped or abused in uniform, than at any other job. Is she athletic at all? Have her check out the new Army Combatives program. She'll learn how to defend herself from guys twice her size, and boy won't they be shocked as she's choking them out! But really, the chances that she'd have to face this are remote, and not extraordinarily higher just because she's in the service. Civilian men can be raping pig assholes too.

5) I must stress again how important it is that you not throw a bucket of cold water at your daughter for this choice. She will remember it for the rest of her live and it could be the beginning of a long, painful wedge between the two of you. I suggest you make sure she knows that the Army is not just a job, it's a commitment, and them immediately find out where she is doing BCT (basic combat training) and prepare to show up and see her march on the parade field on graduation day. I know you don't want this for her, but it's her life, and she needs to know you are in her corner even when her choices don't agree with your choices. Try to be proud of her and her accomplishment, and encourage her to excel in the service to the same degree she excelled in school. Our Army is the sum total of its parts. The better, more able, more conscientious and professional the parts, the better, more able, more conscientious and professional the Army.

[EFerrari]

269. Do you have that cr2p in a file or do you have to type it out every time?

Where the fuck do you get off telling greenbriar what to do or how to treat her own daughter? You are an ad for everything that mothers don't want for their daughters, up to and including having authoritarian nincompoops dictating to them.

[SubOdeon]

280. Someone has issues, and it isn't me.

I'm disappointed that my sincere reply to greenbriar has pegged your meter.

She seemed like she was upset over a choice her daughter had made, and I wanted to caution her about this reaction and how she dealt with her daughter's choice to be in the Army. I tried to give her an alternative perspective, considering the fact that my military experience -- and the people I have been able to serve with -- has not been negative.

If you're experiencing heartburn over such an alternative view, I suggest that the issue is yours to deal with, not mine.

I also suspect that greenbriar is perfectly capable of forming her own responses, without your enthusiastic assistance.

[EFerrari]

287. I don't speak for anyone else. And perhaps you can go try to pathologize

someone who falls for bullshit.

[SubOdeon]

297. What?

I really don't know where all this anger is coming from. I suspect it has nothing to do with me, however.

Like I said, issues.

[bdab1973]

282. What an interesting perspective...

A father who feels a parent should carefully consider their child's decisions and stand behind what they choose in life is an "authoritarian nincompoop".

While a mother who feels it's necessary to jump on an internet message board raving mad and bash her daughter's decision and stand in her way is considered thoughtful.

Very interesting perspective you have.

[EFerrari]

288. What utter cR2p. greenbriar is speaking to her peers.

The other poster is issuing a set of orders. Interesting that you can't recognize the difference.

[SubOdeon]

296. I offered advice, as a fellow parent

Are you a parent? Which "peers" is greenbriar speaking to, if not other parents?

[bdab1973]

301. I didn't see that at all...

He was suggesting advice. Presumably she knew that posting this on DU would likely bring a multitude of opinions and people throwing in their .02 cents into the hat. If she thought she'd only get select replies from like-minded individuals, then perhaps she should refrain from posting on a public message board.

NOTE: Those are all suggestions, lest I be accused of "ordering" anyone around.

[Joey Liberal]

248. Wow!

Why would she turn down that scholarship? Most kids go in the service to get college money. Don't despair, greenbrair. One good thing is your daughter will wish she went to college after she meets her drill sergeants. That may motivate her more towards getting her education. On the other hand, Army basic is not like it was 20 years ago. It's not as hard. My niece just went through it was I couldn't believe how soft it has gotten.

Another positive is that if she is that smart, she'll have many opportunities in the Army.

What will her MOS be? Where is she taking basic?

[Joey Liberal]

252. Army Drill Sergeants Video

Hey greenbrier,
Your daughter will be fine as long as she understands what she's getting into. As you can tell by some of the current active duty soldiers on DU, the quality of Soldiers serving in today's Army is high. I think the Army has eliminated a lot of the abuse from basic too. It is going to be easy for her? No. If she chose her MOS wisely, it could be a great experience for her.

Here's a clip that you may (or may not) enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANUg_XemLvc

JL
"Former Army Sergeant"

[dcindian]

274. They all need to make their own choices and protecting our country is not the worst of them.

I hope you can come to terms with her choice and hope beyond hope that she will remain safe. My son nearly made the same choice last year and either way my wife and I would have supported his decision as it turned out he chose the scholarship but it was a worrisome time. So we feel your worry for your daughter and I have a feeling she will make you proud no matter what she chooses.

[datasuspect]

275. except they aren't protecting our country

they are ensuring positive cash flows for industry.

[dcindian]

277. While I agree in a sense. I think it matters more what they think when they enter.

I certainly did not enter the service with anything like that in mind. One can do good things even when the broader meaning of it is askew.

[Arugula Latte]

285. Let's face it, our military usually has very little to do with "defense."

It's primarily about going on the offense to serve the interests of corporate CEOs.

[dcindian]

294. Oh I do not disagree at all.

But having it does protect the country and many of those who join do so for good reasons.

[Fireweed247]

283. U.S. soldiers exposed to toxins at site KBR knew was contaminated, senators say

Saying they want more answers, U.S. Sens. Birch Bayh, D-Ind., and Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., on Wednesday said Houston-based contractor KBR Inc. allowed soldiers to be exposed to the chemical for more than two months even though KBR knew the site was contaminated, according to The Associate Press.

They also said Indiana National Guard troops didn't learn of possible exposure until they saw KBR workers wearing special clothing, AP reported.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/nowhearthis/archives/161831.asp

[Xenotime]

284. Obama won't let her be deployed.

[AlCzervik]

290. and they didn't discuss with you? hmmm.

[DarbyUSMC]

293. My daughter wanted to be a Marine when she was 10 years old but by

the time she graduated, had no interest in it. Not that you mean it that way, but it's a roundabout insult to those of us who have served in the military, that you would be this upset that your daughter has enlisted. The Marines I've kept in touch with, went on to various careers outside the military. Some stayed in, but most got out and used what they learned to help them in "real" life jobs or went on to college.

I don't take offense to your reaction but I hope you'll give it some thought and feel better about your daughter's decision.

[bdab1973]

302. Be careful about what you say, you might be seen as ordering her around..

Tongue-in-cheek response, based on the responses of others.

I agree with you...and I'm a parent of 4 kids.