Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Since the plane was on autopilot I blame the airline.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:20 PM
Original message
Since the plane was on autopilot I blame the airline.
Not the pilot who was probably trying to asses the situation. The airline that is trying to pin it on a rouge pilot, they are at fault. If it is the media then they are complicit in the insurance scam.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. I thought that story had been dispelled--that the plan was NOT
on autopilot....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Buffalo News says it was on for some of the flight - turned off near the end of the flight
http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/580554.html

...
He said the crew turned on the de-icing system 11 minutes after departure, and that it stayed on the entire flight.

He also said that autopilot was engaged at some point into the flight, and it remained on until 26 seconds before the crew lost contact with air traffic controllers.

When the plane crashed, landed, autopilot was not engaged, he said.

When autopilot engaged, the airplane's system was attempting to push the nose of the plane down.

At some point, the crew then disengaged the autopilot, he said.

Twenty-six seconds after that, communication was lost, he said. When there is "severe" icing, the manufacturer of the airplane recommends that the autopilot be disengaged so the pilot can correct for weather conditions more efficiently, Chealander said.

The NTSB also recommends that in icing conditions "you might want to disengage the autopilot so you have a manual feel for what might be changing because of the ice," he said.

"We suggest you take it off autopilot to better feel the airplane and stay ahead of changes as a result of icing." However, he also said that the NTSB encourages pilots to "use autopilot to help you handle the workload in these highly intense weather situations. To say they shouldn't have been flying on autopilot is not correct."

...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Erm.....why?
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 11:28 PM by dmallind
Should the company have disabled all autopilot functionality? I'm not a pilot but I'm pretty sure that functionality exists for a reason and has an off switch in the cockpit, not controlled from HQ.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. This has gone back and forth. Was it on autopilot or not? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. According to the 10 O'clock new is was on Auto pilot.
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Me, I blame it on a mascara pilot
Just who you are you trying to sass, Mr. Sullenberger?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. lol
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
33. Beat me to it. Are my cheeks RED!
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Fly by Wire and Autopilot have crashed many times
Look at AirBus's record -

With Fly by wire control the pilot has "No Idea" he is fighting the computer and not just the weather
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. A full moon and tea flavor have more coherence than this connection
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. Learn to read
Shortly after the crash of a French Airbus A320 at an airshow on Sunday, the French pilots' union attributed the accident to the plane's innovative fly-by-wire control system.

Shortly after the crash of a French Airbus A320 at an airshow on Sunday, the French pilots' union attributed the accident to the plane's innovative fly-by-wire control system.

The A320 is the first aircraft designed for traditional commercial operations to rely mainly on electronic commands sent via electrical wiring to control the airplane. Traditionally, pilots have used a large wheel or control stick, which the pilot grasps like the steering wheel in an automobile, to manipulate cables that physically start and stop such devices as motors and pumps. These devices move the mechanical systems -such as the ailerons and flaps on the wings, elevators on the horizontal surface of the tail and the rudder -that control flight.

By contrast, the pilot in an A320 flies the plane with a controller that resembles the joystick for a computer game. It is known as a ''sidestick'' because it is mounted at the pilot's side where it will not interfere with the view of display panels. Movements of the stick send electrical signals to computers that translate them into commands for the aircraft's moving parts.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3D6133FF93AA15755C0A96E948260


That took all of 5 seconds to google
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. All I need is: "French pilots' union" ... who are they to 'know' the cause?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Believing Is Art Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Ugh, Airbus
I don't remember the exact details, but there was a crash of a Russian airline where the pilot was letting his kids think they were flying, but the autopilot was on. His son pushed the yoke too far and disengaged only part of the autopilot without warning. The plane went into a spin and crashed. It was an Airbus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. There have been about "8 Fly by Wire - Airbus crashes"
of fully loaded commercial airplanes

In fact I think they went over to the parrallel hydralic system used on Boeing's planes where the pilot can actually "feel" the controls for this very reason
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Please list the crashes that have been caused by FBW failures...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. trying to make sense of your post...
failed miserably
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hey, Fuck You, That pilot died for the decision he made ... everyday decisions such as that are
made. I really think he got into an icing situation from hell and fell out of the air.

A SITUATION THAT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. There was another post that said it may have been a Tail stall and those
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 11:35 PM by BrklynLiberal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Nope, any pilot can deal with elevator and/or rudder failure if he has ailerons, throttle, landing
gear. They had 26 seconds to hit the throttle and get out of there.

It just looks like ice. If you've ever seen clear ice form ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I concur, with or without the F-bomb
Apparently the aircraft turned from an aerodynamic machine into a goddamn ice-glazed brick in pretty short order. This was a horrible event that appears to have been no fault of the pilot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Yeah, it looks like an icing condition from hell ... and the plane fell out of the air due to
altered wing surface and an incredible amount of weight (the FAA says the wing alteration is the killer). I've seen clear ice form ... it forms so fast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. Ice on the wing, couldn't get enough lift..
engines overheated, epic fail.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. A rouge pilot, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yes, but he had a good foundation
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. People will just gloss over that. He'd blush to realize what a shadow has been cast over his career.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Initial inspection found that the plane was equipped with a cloaking device
But it was just the pilot's concealer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. Since the story was bogus, I blame the media.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. No doubt, the blame lies in the makeup of the crew.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. The rouge pilot was only trying to cover up his imperfections.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Okay, I think that the joke is getting a little old
It's no longer in vouge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. So many rumors. This is the lastest from the Associated Press
BC-Plane Into Home, 10th Ld-Writethru,1104
Plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot
Eds: UPDATES with more from NTSB about actions pilot took before
crash; quote from county health commission on victim
identification. AP Video.
With BC-Plane Into Home-Turboprops, BC-Plane Into Home-Town
AP Photo NYRB104, NYRB106, NYRB109, NYRB102
By LARRY NEUMEISTER
Associated Press Writer
BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) - The commuter plane that crashed near
Buffalo was on autopilot until just before it went down in icy
weather, indicating that the pilot may have ignored federal safety
recommendations and violated the airline's own policy for flying in
such conditions, an investigator said Sunday.
Federal guidelines and the airline's own instructions suggest a
pilot should not engage the autopilot when flying through ice. If
the ice is severe, the company that operated Continental Flight
3407 requires pilots to shut off the autopilot.
"You may be able in a manual mode to sense something sooner
than the autopilot can sense it," said Steve Chealander of the
National Transportation Safety Board, which also recommends that
pilots disengage the autopilot in icy conditions.
Automatic safety devices returned the aircraft to manual control
just before it fell from the sky, Chealander said.
During a Sunday briefing, Chealander described the flight's
frantic last moments, which included a steep drop and
rollercoaster-like pitching and rolling.
Chealander said information from the plane's flight data
recorder indicates that the plane pitched up at an angle of 31
degrees, then pitched down at 45 degrees.
The plane rolled to the left at 46 degrees, then snapped back to
the right at 105 degrees - 15 degrees beyond vertical.
Radar data shows Flight 3407 fell from 1,800 feet above sea
level to 1,000 feet in five seconds, he said. Passengers and crew
would have experienced G-forces up to twice as strong as on the
ground.
The plane crashed belly first onto a house Thursday night,
killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground.
Just before they went down in a suburban neighborhood near the
Buffalo airport, the pilots discussed "significant" ice buildup
on their wings and windshield. Other aircraft in the area told air
traffic controllers they also experienced icing around the same
time.
The Dash 8 Q400 plane operated by Colgan Air was equipped with a
"stick shaker" mechanism that rattles the yoke to warn the pilot
if the plane is about to lose aerodynamic lift, a condition called
a stall.
When the stick shaker engaged, it would have automatically
turned off the autopilot, Chealander said.
Before that, the pilot switched on an anti-stall device that
increases the speed of the plane by 20 knots and gives a pilot more
margin to recover from a stall if it occurs.
Chealander said the plane's deicing system was turned on 11
minutes after it took off from Newark, N.J., and stayed on for the
entire flight. Indicator lights showed the system appeared to be
working.
He said the pilot was being "very conservative" by turning it
on so soon.
Investigators who examined both engines said they appeared to be
running normally at the time of the crash, too.
In a December safety alert issued by the NTSB, the agency said
pilots in icy conditions should turn off or limit the use of the
autopilot to better "feel" changes in the handling qualities of
the airplane.
Still, Chealander was careful not to criticize the pilot.
"Everything that should have been done was done so we keep
looking," he said. "We keep looking, trying to find out why this
happened."
Colgan Air operates a fleet of 51 regional turboprops for
Continental Connection, United Express and US Airways Express.
Chealander said Colgan, like most airlines, had begun following
NTSB recommendations that pilots use deicing systems as soon as
they enter conditions that might lead to icing.
Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Laura Brown said the
agency advises pilots to disengage the autopilot when ice is
accumulating, but the guidance is not mandatory.
She also said some planes are certified to be flown on autopilot
in icing conditions because doing so "may actually keep the
aircraft at a steadier speed and altitude than a pilot could flying
it manually."
Brown said the agency considered making the guidance mandatory,
but others in the aviation community argued against it, citing the
capabilities of such advanced planes.
She did not know if the 74-seat Q400 Bombardier aircraft that
crashed Thursday was certified to be on autopilot during icing
conditions.
By Sunday, authorities had recovered the remains of at least 15
people from the wreckage as crews raced to finish their work before
a storm arrives later in the week.
Recovery crews could need as much as four days to remove the
remains from the site. Chealander described the efforts as an
"excavation."
"Keep in mind, there's an airplane that fell on top of a house,
and they're now intermingled," he said.
DNA and dental records will be used to identify the remains, he
said.
"Whether we can identify everybody or not remains to be seen,
but it will be weeks, the identification process," Erie County
Health Commissioner Anthony Billittier said.
Once all the remains are recovered, the focus will turn to
removing wreckage of the 74-seat aircraft from the neighborhood.
---
Associated Press writers William Kates, Ramit Plushnick-Masti,
Carolyn Thompson and John Curran contributed to this report.

(Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

AP-NY-02-15-09 2024EST
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
22. They were doing the nasty??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
25. Makeup!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caraher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
27. Wow, that typo is pushing this thread into DUzy territory
Don't forget to tip your waitress
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
28. Maybe it's Maybelline!
:crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 16th 2024, 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC