We are headed over the waterfall in a barrel.. DOW is tanking

[Peacetrain]

And did we ALL not know this was going to happen 5 years ago.

The thing that boils my blood right now, are the talking heads who complain the President is talking down the economy ....and in the same breath, kneecap an initiative to try and turn it around.

They really want the country to fail. I know things will get better in the long run, but just take a few minutes, and peruse the talking heads on TV and radio and listen to them try and bottom us out.

Know who the enemy is and keep them in you line of vision.

[Are_grits_groceries]

1. Who knows who is screwing with the DOW?

There are too many players. Some are very large and have agendas.

[Peacetrain]

2. It really makes you wonder sometimes

[Hoopla Phil]

3. Have you looked at the financial markets?

It started when the Asian markets last night. I was up till about 2:00 am central watching it. Someone is converting HUGE amounts foreign currency into dollars. It has yet to be pinned down on who is doing it or why but it is having a major global impact.

[Are_grits_groceries]

5. I didn't know that.

I'm not surprised though. If it wasn't converting foreign currency to dollars, it would be something else.

[Peacetrain]

6. Seriously... manipulation for what reason?

Thanks for the information.. really makes you stop and think

[Hoopla Phil]

29. It may not be manipulation of the financial market. It could be

that someone knows that the foreign currencies are about to implode and are looking for the best place to put their wealth. It's crazy.

[CoffeeCat]

8. Wouldn't that be a good thing...

...if someone is investing in dollars?

I'm not getting why this would cause the DOW to tank.

Thanks for any insight...just trying to understand.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

12. Not necessarily. If I recall my econ...

Currency is like any other good - supply and demand rule over it. When someone buys up a lot of the dollar, the new scarcity strengthens the currency, meaning it's harder to export our goods but easier to import. That also means it might become cheaper to import rather than produce domestically. Something like that could easily wreak havoc on the market.

[WilliamPitt]

31. I can't find any stories reporting that. Do you have a link?

I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[CJCRANE]

4. Obama hasn't even put pen to paper

to sign the bill yet (AFAIK). Let's wait to see what happens.

[CoffeeCat]

7. The bozo talking heads...

...have insisted--at least 50 times--that "this is the bottom, and a great time to buy!"

They've been claiming "unprecedented buying opportunities" since October.

Frankly, I got so sick of it, I canceled cable. It was getting ridiculous. I couldn't stand
to see these lying mouthpieces attempting to prop up their corporate masters--and exploit
American citizens.

And that Cramer. He's all ready admitted--during a four-alarm meltdown--that he is beholden
to the corporations that put the squeeze on him. They're constantly begging him to prop up
their companies and leverage their stocks, to the unwashed masses.

I like it better without cable tv. I can get on thestreet.com and see what the numbers are--without
being dished a plate of nonstop baloney.

They have called the bottom so many times--it's shameful.

[ipfilter]

9. CNBS calls the bottom every day.

[CoffeeCat]

13. They're desperately trying to entice avg Americans...

...into getting into the market---or staying in.

When you really think about this---it's revolting.

They're playing with people's 401ks! Their retirement!

These are middle class folks who are desperately trying to make sense of what is happening to the economy.
So, they tune into CNBC or MSNBC to get the truth--seeking guidance. They get a steady dose of how great
the market is right now and how much opportunity there is. They hear that your nuts if you get out.

The downward spiral will continue. That's obvious.

The large and institutional investors with the big bucks are getting out before they lose their shirts--but they have
to have some people in the market--so the media constantly bamboozles the serfs into staying in.

This is criminal!

[ipfilter]

17. Every time I watch the pump monkeys

my eyes hurt from rolling them. The markets have no where to go but down from here. All this "generational buy" stuff is a load of crap and they know it. They are just leading in new sheep to get sheared.

I'll start buying again when earnings are positive and companies stop slashing dividends. Buying right now is just knife catching.

[Peacetrain]

10. That is probably some good advice...

But I think I see a sneak attack on our rear coming from the established right wing money manipulators.. and it is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

[CoffeeCat]

14. Do you think they're creating...

...downward pressure on the DOW?

I've always understood that if Obama wins--they will kick out the last remaining pillars
that are propping up this house of cards that they built. They know they can orchestrate
chaos and a downfall on Obama's watch--so they can market the notion that the coming shitstorm
if Obama's fault.

[Peacetrain]

16. Would not surprise me at all...

That is their only chance.. they so thoroughly screwed it up (the economy) and it is documented like no other time.. that it may be an all out push to get that "elephant" off their backs so they can get back into power to do it again

[blindpig]

34. What nonsense.

Money supersedes politics, politics is money's tool. Ain't no conspiracy, it's one of your cyclical downturns, a result of overproduction, money is always searching for a more profitable home. First manufacturing jobs were moved offshore, that allowed better profits based on cheaper labor. Then overproduction caught up again ($15 dvd players, anyone?), so the money went to real estate and finance. It gets worse and worse, wait 'til the credit card industry hits the wall.

The problem is Capitalism, the answer is Socialism.

[Hannah Bell]

42. cramer *owns* thestreet.com.

founded it with martin peretz

"In 1996 Cramer co-founded TheStreet.com with The New Republic editor Martin Peretz, one of his hedge fund's original clients. Cramer later had a falling out with Peretz over business matters. Cramer is currently a market commentator and adviser to the TheStreet.com, as well as its largest shareholder."

"Peretz is currently separated from Anne Labouisse Farnsworth Peretz, heiress to the Singer Sewing Machine fortune and daughter of H.R. Labouisse and Elizabeth Scriven Clark. Her wealth is widely credited as having given Peretz the means to acquire The New Republic.<4><5> Peretz is a long-time friend and supporter of Al Gore...Under the leadership of Peretz, the magazine generally maintained liberal and neoliberal positions on economic and social issues, and assumed hawkish and strong pro-Israel stances in foreign affairs. Peretz has said "Support for Israel is deep down, an expression of America's best view of itself."

wikipedia

[Cerridwen]

11. Makes me wonder about "dark pools."

Another DUer, JuniperLea, brought this to my attention in a thread I started.

Are “Dark Pools” Destined to be the Capital Markets’ Next Black Hole?

Dark Pools: From Trading Haven to Heavyweight

Dark Pools are electronic "crossing networks" that offer institutional investors many of the same benefits associated with making trades on the stock exchanges’ public limit order books - without tipping their hands to others, meaning publicly quoted prices aren’t affected. This is the capital markets’ version of a godsend - especially for traders who desire to move large blocks of shares without the public investors ever knowing.

Some examples of so-called crossing networks include Liquidnet Inc., Pipeline, the Posit unit of Investment Technology Group (ITG), or the SIGMA X unit of Goldman Sachs Group Inc. (GS).

In an era in which "secret" transactions contributed to what’s shaping up to be the largest credit crisis in history, you’d think that any mechanism that allows insiders to trade in complete secrecy and with total anonymity would be scrutinized more closely than a Roger Clemens vitamin shot. But that’s not the case with Dark Pools.

As has long been the case, the old boys really do like to operate behind closed doors, on the other side of the "velvet rope" - beyond which the un-anointed daily working stiff may never pass. And Dark-Pool operators are only getting more private as computerized trading becomes more sophisticated and large-scale-order placement evolves into a science all to itself.

<snip to much more in the article at the link posted above>

[zagging]

15. Not to disparage the stimulus, but...

There are still over 50 trillion out there in rotten credit default swaps that need to be covered. Investment banks and banks in general, that is, the world's credit markets, have failed. They've lost control and for some reason it's not being discussed very much. Suffice to say there's no way 1T in stimulus can touch 50T in lost capital worldwide. It's a pipe dream. We've already gone over the waterfall, we just haven't crashed on the rocks below yet.

[CoffeeCat]

19. Does this mean that most of the big banks...

...are insolvent?

Even Wells Fargo? I thought that they were a healthy bank. It was reported that they didn't want
bailout money, but the government practically threatened them, "You don't take this money now, then
we won't be there when you really need us."

Oh really???

I don't like being a tin-foil hatter, but our government is openly behaving like the cast of the "Sopranos".

They 'strongly encourage' Wells to take bailout money and then hint that Wells will need the government real
soon, and unless they want to be out in the cold--better get on board.

This smells like nationalization was an orchestrated plot the entire time--and that the government forced
Wells, a healthy bank--to go along.

[zagging]

20. Hell yes, they're insolvent.

[ww2player]

23. Financial crooks and their games

The growth in the economy over the last few decades has been from creating one credit bubble after another to make it seem like the economy is growing. You can only live so long off of credit cards before the Credit card company finaly owes everything you have and come collecting. It is usually right after they cut you off from borrowing even more. Bankers have been creating so much money that there is no way they can cover those loans when they go bad. The Leverage in the system was allowed to get out of control so they could keep collecting those sweet sweet bonuses every year.

And on a side note, think about all those counterfit stock shares sold that help drive prices of securities down. The SEC and DTC are helping the crooks steal our money and the investors are getting the shaft. Now you can not even get paper stock certificates anymore. It would make it too easy to prove the brokerages are selling more stock than the companies have even issued. And we want to prop up this whole crooked financial system why??

[zagging]

41. DTCC renegades are at the core of the market problems

But I don't know how the SEC can control them. Off shore transactions are nearly impossible to regulate and monitor. It's a regulatory nightmare, that's for sure.

[Coyote_Bandit]

18. The market is still overpriced

Stock valuations are based on future expected earnings. And those are way down.

I expect the market lows to eventually settle somewhere around 6800.

[Occam Bandage]

21. The Japanese markets collapsed yesterday on news that

the Japanese GDP shrank by 3.3% in one quarter, with a projected annual contraction of 12.7%. That is like apocalypse numbers. Our markets don't like that any more than theirs do; if Japan is collapsing like that, it probably means that our recession is worse than we thought too.

[hendo]

22. Oh yes, its all one big anti-Obama conspiracy

Seriously, do you believe that bs? Look at the global markets. Surely anti-obama people everywhere are crashing the global economy. That must be it. :sarcasm:

[Occam Bandage]

26. People don't like considering the possibility of a world outside these borders.

It makes it much more difficult to believe that the domestic political opposition controls everything.

[hendo]

50. Definitely

and no one, especially some of the posters here want anything that would lead them to challenge their beliefs. It is funny though to see the intolerant complain about intolerance, it makes me chuckle every day.

[Peacetrain]

27. You think it is an anti-Obama conspiracy... strange thought process there

I see it as the money manipulators who screwed it up in the first place looking to pin it on someone else.

This is a massive global downturn that could drown us if we do not do something, or if we try to undercut every initiative to turn it around.

Let me edit to add... :shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

28. I think that looking at the Dow drop

in the opening stages of an ever-deepening recession, the day after it was revealed that the world's second-biggest economy is contracting about three times faster than anyone had predicted, and thinking "I bet this is manipulative manipulators manipulating things again," is a bit unfounded.

[Peacetrain]

30. This is the continuation of the deepest recession since the Depression

and there are the money manipulators who gave us Enron, the S & L crisis, the Mortgage Crisis, the expansion of tax cuts and large programs and two wars with no funding.. all being exposed and all trying to cover their butts.

It is worldwide, but we are tracked into one another and it is exactly these kinds of world wide economic crisis's if not addressed that lead to massive conflicts and wars. There are those who do not have the welfare of the nation in mind, and are willing to use anything to
sidetrack or derail any attempt by the Democrats (the republicans have gone AWOL on this) to turn the country around

[Occam Bandage]

32. I don't doubt that Republicans are trying to derail Obama, nor

do I doubt that deregulation has resulted in the crisis we're currently facing. However, I don't think that the fluctuations in the Dow are caused by deliberate manipulation; if I still had money in the market at this point, I'd pull out of any stock that dealt with the Asian Rim markets (fortunately, I did so over a year ago) and quite a few beyond that.

[hendo]

49. huh? where did you get that?

[bdamomma]

24. this was all done on Bush's watch.

the repigs want to see the country burn.

[Javaman]

25. all the rich are buying short. making buckets today.

it's a sad thing that one can make money betting on the economy crapping out.

[jmg257]

36. "Buying?" Then why is the market going down? nt

[Javaman]

48. ugh, buying short is betting that a stock will do bad. nt

[Skidmore]

33. Screw the DOW and the rest of the markets--all constructs to

sucker people into gambling their incomes in an attempt to make easy money. Stock markets don't create jobs, except for the glorified bookies we call brokers. Frankly, I'd like to see us pay less attention to the markets and more attention to creating jobs for services and products people will use.

[Occam Bandage]

35. "Stock markets don't create jobs"

By issuing stock, companies gain an influx of cash on hand for investment. Investment leads to job growth. Increased profitability leads to investors making money in turn; they may then reinvest that money, leading to greater investment and thus greater job growth.

[Hannah Bell]

43. the majority of the market is trading existing stock.

[Telly Savalas]

51. Nobody is going to buy a stock if they know they're stuck with it for the rest of their life.

Without a secondary market to make stocks relatively liquid it would be considerably more difficult for companies to raise capital by issuing stock.

[marksmithfield]

37. Anybody fool enough to believe

The President has anything but the best interests of the people (us) in his actions is insane. This is not his disaster, it is all of ours. I wasn't for Obama, but I hope he does really, really well. Otherwise we are screwed big time.

[Maru Kitteh]

44. Thanks for your comment and welcome to DU. - The audacity of thinking for yourself.

It's so good to hear that even though you were not for Obama, you are a big enough person to wish him well for the countries sake. Things would be so much better if more people were like you, and had the courage to think for themselves.

I commend you and welcome you to DU. :toast:

[yurbud]

38. the rich get richer with a cyclical economy, the middle class and poor do better with a stable one

[yurbud]

39. one way to deal with the problem, EAT those who are causing it:

http://professorsmartass.blogspot.com/2009/02/wall-st-execs-bankers-feed-those-they.html

[yurbud]

40. one way to deal with the problem, EAT those who are causing it:

http://professorsmartass.blogspot.com/2009/02/wall-st-execs-bankers-feed-those-they.html

[Vinca]

45. I think we ought to ignore the stock market.

I've noticed when unemployment numbers rise, the stock market goes up because businesses are perceived to be cutting expenses so there will be more profits for the fat cats. It goes down anytime something is introduced that helps the least among us. For all we know today it's reacting to the notion that a few extra food stamps will be given out and more unemployment benefits will be paid. Can't wait to see what happens if we get government-sponsored healthcare.

[zagging]

46. Ignore it and it'll go away.

[Ilsa]

47. Gold is up $29. nt