new controversy over what triggered the European Renaissance

[ensho]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page.html



CHINA!! that's who.

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On The Edge

I'm reading Gavin Menzies' second volume 1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and Ignited the Renaissance that the Chinese treasure fleets and their technology transfers were the actual trigger of the European Renaissance. Obviously, Menzies is causing enormous controversy and furor - it is hard to admit that the Renaissance may have been sired by folks other than Christians.
ArthurBorges

Go to the readers' forum topic, The Chinese Century Has Arrived!
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how interesting. hope we learn more.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. The Black Plague had a lot to do with it from what I understand

The population was severely reduced, which led to higher wages and greater opportunity for the remaining people.

[aquart]

5. That ended feudalism.

I thought I was taught that the Renaissance resulted from finally having access to the literature of Greece and Rome which came about with the dissolution of the monasteries which were hoarding the stuff. There was a huge interest in ancient knowledge which they felt had been lost or sequestered by the Church for not being correct Christian thinking.

But when I think about it, it was only Britain that dissolved the monasteries, wasn't it? So that wouldn't account for the Renaissance in Europe.

But the period does go hand in glove with the Age of Exploration. Europe was bringing back discoveries from America, so why wouldn't it be equally interested in discoveries from China? After all, the whole point of going to America was to try for a shorter route to China because they had such cool stuff. Silk and spices and GUNPOWDER. Not to mention spaghetti. Italy went nuts for the noodles.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Thom Hartmann was just arguing with some knob about it.

The guy is a raging RWer who thinks white people aren't having enough babies. The subject of Italy came up and Thom claimed that wars and famine and disease sparked a Renaissance in Italy because the price of labor went up. It makes sense because when people have more money they tend to become more educated. And I'm sure exploration had plenty to do with it as well.

[aquart]

15. The plague was in the 1300s with periodic recurrence.

The Renaissance is associated with the 1500s. A two-hundred year gap between cause and effect is always arguable.

[Posteritatis]

18. Popularly associated, anyway

The Italian renaissance goes back into the late 1200s according to some interpretations, and was certainly underway by the mid-1300s and widespread by the following century.

[Hello_Kitty]

21. It would take quite a while for the minimum population and the economy to rebuild

It's not like a population that had been decimated by wars, plagues, and famine would get busy writing poetry and creating great works of art and scientific theories right away. A two hundred or so year interim makes sense.

[TheWraith]

2. To be blunt, Menzies' theories are considered bunk by historians.

There's no real evidence to back up his claims. Yes, the Chinese had a hell of a naval armada in the early 1430s, but a new isolationist regime took over and ordered the fleet burned to the ground for reasons only they knew.

[Posteritatis]

10. "Bunk" is a polite and tactful wording of their take on him

I prefer "utter made-up bullshit" myself. ;)

[Lost in CT]

19. Plus they didn't exactly sail to Italy to begin with.

As a poster above says bunk is a very kind word.

[ananda]

3. Surely no one believes that the Renaissance was..

.. "fired by Christians." Historically,
credit has been given to discovery of
classical art and documents.

Also, there is a distinction between
the evolution of technics and that of
the humanities, art and literature.

In the realm of math and science, for
instance, surely no one in their right
mind believes that so-called "Christians"
played much of a viable part, particularly
in light of institutional Christianity's
hard cruel efforts at suppressing science
and using the Inquisition to go after
scientists in the name of heresy.

That math and science did make progress
owes much to rich men of leisure like
Newton and Descartes, along with the rich
background and history of mathematics
and science in other cultures and nations,
particularly those of Islam.. and indeed,
perhaps, China.. but that evolution
should, in my view, be separated from the
explosion in arts and letters that is
called The Renaissance.

[tritsofme]

4. More than anyone it was fueled by...gasp...Muslims!!

That ought to make some RW heads spin.

[barb162]

7. That would make any historian's head spin also since it is not true,

[tritsofme]

9. You're telling me that European interaction

with Muslims did not help to fuel the Renaissance?

I must say I am rather shocked by your bold assertion.

[leftofthedial]

6. The Renaissance would have happened much sooner

if it weren't for FDR

[Posteritatis]

11. Anyone talking about The Cause Of The Renaissance is deluding themselves

The real world doesn't work that simply.

Oh, and Menzies is a fraud and an idiot.

[Davis_X_Machina]

12. All unicausal historical explanations are bunk.

And cutting history up into labeled time-slices is bunk. But if you are into that stuff, 1434 is a century too late for the Mediterranean Renaissance, if you're in the Michelet-Burkhardt-Huizinga tradition.

No one woke up on the day Romulus Augustulus was booted from the imperial throne in Ravenna and said "Oh dear, now it's the Dark Ages". Same for the Renaissance.

[cobalt1999]

13. You probably should take that book with a HUGE grain of salt

It has enough holes in it to sink the Chinese Armada.

[AngryAmish]

14. It would have happend sooner if they had a Mac

[Solon]

16. There was no single cause...

Many things helped trigger the Renaissance, the Plague and its recurrences lead to a population reduction and the straining of the feudal system, the rediscovery of ancient Roman and Greek texts in Monasteries scattered throughout Europe, influence from Muslim scholars who also kept, preserved, and advanced on the work of ancient Greco-Roman-Egyptian scholars. Influence from China may have occurred as well, they were, at the time, the most advanced nation technologically in the world, so it wouldn't be a surprise that some Europeans were influenced by Chinese technology. Not to mention the gradual weakening of the influence of the Catholic Church contributed to it as well.

There are perhaps many other causes for the Renaissance, far too many to list here, but these were all probable explanations for it.

[ashling]

17. The Rennaisance was a product of

the History Channel
:crazy:

[hayu_lol]

20. Before the Europeans managed to sail west into uncharted waters...

the Chinese indeed had a very large fleet of ocean-going junks. Large enough ships to require crews of up to 1000 men each. The Chinese Admiral did leave reports of exploring the eastern coast of Africa. The Chinese were probably the first to discover California...long before the Spanish did. They left their round anchors in the coastal waters behind when they returned to China.

I don't believe that there is any reputable evidence showing the Chinese getting as far as the Atlantic however. They may have launched an overland expedition to reach Italy(possible but unlikely).

China needed nothing in trade from the west in those times...hence the name 'middle kingdom' or center of the world. The character for China(middle)is a rectangular box with a vertical line through the box. Guo(country)is a more complex character.