Racism and Comedy

[erpowers]

Is it every proper to use racism in jokes? I saw a portion of a Lisa Lampanelli show and the show featured a great deal of racism. Essentially, the whole portion of the show that I saw was just of her making racial comments. Mainly, all she did was say many of the worst racial stereotypes and use most, if not all, of the major racial slurs. In addition, she insulted other groups that were different for reasons other than race.

In case anyone was wondering what types of jokes Lampanelli was making this is a sample. She mentioned the fact that she might get raped by the black and hispanic men in the crowd. She also called hispanics spicks on multiple occasions and asians by a racial slur on multiple occasions.

[Lost in CT]

1. Hack comics often resort to racism. African American comics tend to be the worst offenders...

(Yes I am aware of the irony of the above statement. ):evilgrin:

[Bucky]

10. I don't see the irony

Racism is offensive, destructive, and retards the intellectual development, regardless of the ethnicity of the speaker. With the exception of Albanian jokes, I find all racist humor unacceptable.

[firedupdem]

13. You really think so?

I've seen many african american comics and I got tired of the N word being used. I didn't hear much racism.

[Terran]

36. Can you name an example of an A-A comic being racist?

Because I know a lot of white people mistake black comics discussing the real foibles of white people as racist. The fact is, black people know white people far better than we know ourselves; it's just in the nature of our historical relationship.

[Lost in CT]

38. Good lord I'm not talking about black comics talking about white people

I'm talking about hack black comics telling racist jokes about black people.

[Terran]

45. Oh, I see (not)

Did you never get the idea that you can tell a joke about your own people and no matter how bad it is, it's still won't be racist? That's just the nature of humor.

[Lost in CT]

46. Telling old racist standbys is no more appropriate for a black comedian than for a white one.

Honestly It's the hack comedy I object to more than the racism.

Oh and changing the word black to mexican and redoing old Bill Cosby routines isn't comedy genius either. (I'm looking at you Carlos)

[MellowDem]

47. That's the stupidest thing I ever heard...

What "real foibles" makes one white? Huh? Black people know white people far better than we know ourselves? Are you kidding me? Is this a joke? Does anyone actually believe this stuff?

I had no idea all people labeled "white" and "black" were the same! I better go now and ask a black person about myself, obviously them reciting steryotypes about whites will tell me all I need to know!

[Terran]

50. Well, one foible would be the degree of ignorance

that you're showing right now. Just keep this in mind and perhaps it will explain it all to you: black people have been putting up with the violent vagaries of white people for, what three centuries now; they've had to understand us to survive. Whereas white people have always had the luxury of ignoring and being ignorant of the ways of black folk. This is now the stuff of comedy for black people. We should be glad they're not a LOT more pissed off at us.

[MellowDem]

51. Wow...

I guess I'm dealing with a "white guilt" fanatic. You need to realize that white is just some bullshit term like black, and reciting stereotypes about any made up group is a great way to continue the ideology of race. Not all "white" people have had the luxury of ignoring and being ignorant of the "ways" of black folk, whatever the hell that means. What are the "ways" of black folk, by the way? I guess once you know them, you can assume all blacks have the same "way".

I should be glad they're not more pissed at my white skin? Man, I feel sorry for you. The way you look at the world and race reminds me of the 1960s. If anyone is pissed at a whole other "race", they're not justified, they're ignorant and bigoted. The sooner you stop aiding and abetting race, the better for the world. You're thinking in terms of a binaries and broad generalizations. The real world is a lot more complicated.

Comedy that tries to mainstream and normalize bullshit assumptions that were made up by slave holders to explain away "equality for all men" are doing more damage than they realize. Comedy that uses those stereotypes to point out their absurdity, on the other hand, is great. However, for the simpleminded, it's nice to think of the world as black and white, with easy assumptions to be made and apparent categories to place everyone in.

[Terran]

63. You have a very short view of history and seem very ignorant

of the history of race relations in this nation. I'm not talking about "all" white people or "all" black people--that is obvious enough, depite the fact you insist on making such an idiotic claim to the contrary. I am talking about the dominant white culture of America, and yes it IS still dominant, and the culture of black America, which has been largely subservient to the dominant culture up until the 1960's.

It doesn't matter what the "ways" of black folk are; the point is that black people as a culture know a lot more about the dominant culture than the dominant culture knows about black culture (and you my friend are proof of that). That is *why* black comedians make fun of white people so much--because they know how to do so with truthfulness, not racism. By contrast, there are very few, if any white comedians who are familiar enough with black culture to do the same and not come off as racist.

I know it seems very progressive to you to claim that such issues around race either don't exist or are racist and/or bullshit, but in fact you'll pretty much only hear that attitude from white people. I'm fairly certain that almost any African-American posting at DU would agree with me that a lot race issues still reside at the non-gray area level...simply because racism continues to pervade this society. You can't move past that simply by trying to frame people who are aware of it as dinosaurs. Such a view in fact makes you look like the simple-minded one, not me.

[MellowDem]

74. You continue to prove my point...

perhaps the one thing that race continues to thrive on more than anything else in this world today is the false notion that it is now synonymous with "culture". If there is such a thing as black culture and white culture, then there IS such a thing as black "ways" as well as white. Yet, for some reason, as wrong as we know that is, if we say "culture" in our society, suddenly it becomes okay. "Multiculturalism" is a great example of this. When we hear that word, we as a society think of people that look different, not people from different cultures.

Black comedians have largely made up a "white" culture. In reality, black comedians are making fun of a mainstream culture and assigning them to whiteness, which causes a lot more harm than they think. The notion that the dominant culture can be summed up as "white" is such a broad generalization that it just is not true. People referred to as "white" in the US especially come from a huge variety of different cultures and backgrounds, many of which clash with each other. To say that white skin has it's own culture is just dumb. But a caricature has been made of what white means, as often happens in societies that still give credit to race. And black comedians who use those caricatures obviously have very little if any understanding of other cultures as they lump "whiteness" under one "dominant culture" as you call it. In fact, from what I've seen, many black comedians have the least understanding of culture or the history of race in this country.

White and black "culture" really do not exist, except in a sort of superficial way. People refer to them all the time, but they only exist as far as people try to conform to what their "culture" is supposed to be. And who defines that? A whole slew of people, many of whom you wouldn't describe as part of the "dominant" culture. It is the kind of attitude that normalizes black students labeling another black student who studies hard as "white". After all, they're acting "white". And according to those oh so clever and informed black comedians you mention, who know so much about whites, they're correct! That's where the students get their information on how to act because of their skin color after all.

By the way, I have seen black students who rebel against this attitude, who think it is ignorant. And I really don't think black or white comedians who make race jokes are being racist, not at all. Depending on how they do it, they could be being bigoted, or stereotyping, but they are not being racist. However, they are reinforcing race as an idea and as a way to identify in this society, and they are also helping to keep us divided and thinking in dumbed down terms of "black" and "white". Except for some clever ones who turn those stereotypes on their heads.

As for why it's harder for white comedians not to come off as racist when they essentially do the exact same thing as black comedians is simply because there is a double standard in our society. When Rev. Wright made fun of how "white" people clap, for example, most on here said that it wasn't racist and was funny, or how "true" it was. But if a white man were to do that, they would be racist. It's a double standard, pure and simple.

Racism continues to pervade in this society because race continues to be championed as real by those who are supposedly fighting racism.

[fishwax]

77. so it's black comedians who invented the notion that mainstream = white

:rofl:

Black comedians have largely made up a "white" culture.

:rofl:

:eyes:

[walnutpie]

70. So by extension

I assume you would have no problem with white comics pointing out the foibles of black folks, right?

[kwassa]

58. There is a difference between racial humor and racist humor

and I haven't heard any black comedians using racist humor. Racial, yes, racist, no.

[lisa58]

2. did you think it was funny? I like smart, not insulting

[erpowers]

4. No

No I did not think much of it was funny. It seemed to be stupid, insulting, boring.

[lisa58]

7. then that is probably your answer - I can't imagine insulting anyone is productuve.

[rwheeler31]

3. Very odd comparison.

[erpowers]

5. Please Explain n/t

[babylonsister]

6. WTF is Lisa Lampanelli and why do you listen? Sounds really horrid

to me.

[shanti]

78. believe me

you DON'T want to hear it! she has moments of humor, but they are fleeting, not worth an hour long hbo special. it's just her schtick. sad too, cause she'd be really funny without the racial, denegrating humor.

[SpartanDem]

8. If you offened equally

then I seen no problem someone like Lampanelli, who takes shots a everyone is ok with me.

[Dreamer Tatum]

9. Just apply the White Male Test, and the answer is clear

Imagine that a white guy was saying the exact same thing. If that causes blood to boil, then no one should be saying it.

[lisa58]

11. really good point

[Hello_Kitty]

21. That's true only if you are completely unwilling to acknowledge white male privilege

If you want to act like the playing field is equal, then you can go ahead and pretend that white men are oppressed because they can't use the "n" word or call women bitches. If you are a person who operates in the real world, then you understand the absurdity of that.

[Dreamer Tatum]

24. I don't measure who is oppressed by the appropriateness of slurs coming out of their mouths

Sorry to disappoint.

[Hello_Kitty]

25. Sorry you are unable to discern who is privileged and who isn't.

It's a common malady so I'll try not to hold it against you.

[Dreamer Tatum]

27. Once again, if "underprivileged" uniquely confers the right to slur

then color me not too sympathetic.

[Hello_Kitty]

29. Color you privileged.

:hi:

[lightningandsnow]

39. +1

This. Definitely.

[MellowDem]

48. How do you measure privilege?

Are all white males more privileged than all black males? Do we have some system in place to tell us? No? Then saying that a whole huge, diverse group of people should act a certain way in society because of their "privilege" is the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Do you think that all white males have an equal playing field? No? Then your argument is shot. Saying one group can use certain slurs and another can't only perpetuates the system that made the playing field uneven in the first place.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

52. Here's how.

All other things equal, a white man will have more opportunities versus a non-white.

Conversely, a nonwhite person will generally have to be exceptional in order to erase his race-based disadvantage -- Barack Obama is a perfect example.

Think about it for a second -- would this country stand for a black president as stupid as Bush?

[MellowDem]

53. But not all things are equal...

That's not the real world. So that is no way to measure privilege.

It is true that there is an uneven field out there, but it's not real easy to measure, and it is much more based in class than race. I still don't understand how dividing ourselves by language can be excused by this uneven playing field, nor how it will somehow help us equal the playing field for everyone and eliminate race as a concept.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

55. Really?

So two applicants for a job (one black, one white) can't both come from a similar socio-economic background and possess the same level of intelligence?

Class is certainly a factor, but so is race.

And you didn't answer my question -- would a black (or nonwhite) president as intellectually dumb as Bush be acceptable in this country?

[MellowDem]

66. It is possible...

all that would have to happen is that that black candidate would need to connect with the American people. After all, look at Palin. Many people claim sexism is even worse than racism, yet Palin was incredibly popular among what is usually considered a very sexist population. And she was dumber than Bush.

A dumb black man who played identity politics to the max like Bush did definitely could get elected. You may not agree, but a lot of people were surprised Obama won by as large a number of voters as he did.

As for your two applicants example, the only thing I have against that is that for one, it depends on the circumstance, and for another, that rarely happens in the real world, if it all. So it's not very useful to discuss or use as a way to measure privilege. Even with that example, I could not tell you who would always get the job, in certain situations it would be very different. That's because privilege cannot be associated only with race.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

67. Obama went to great lengths to avoid talking about race.

The only time he really had to do so was during the Wright fiasco. Had he run as "the black candidate," he would've lost.

As for your two applicants example, the only thing I have against that is that for one, it depends on the circumstance, and for another, that rarely happens in the real world, if it all. So it's not very useful to discuss or use as a way to measure privilege. Even with that example, I could not tell you who would always get the job, in certain situations it would be very different. That's because privilege cannot be associated only with race.

Really, it never happens? Where do you live? And being white does confer a net privilege within this country, so of those two applicants, the white one has the edge.

[MellowDem]

71. You can't say that...

you have no idea if every time, no matter what, the white one has the edge. To claim so is false. Also, when I said identity politics, I wasn't talking about having the black candidate run as a "black man", but as some other figurehead, aka the "workingman" or "down home country guy". There are lots of different identities to choose from. Hell, a dumb candidate could run as the "change" candidate as well. If you're a good campaigner, it doesn't matter how dumb you are, you can get elected. In fact, you could say that Obama being so smart was actually a detriment to him in many ways (with the "elitist" label). If he was percieved as "dumber", he may have had an easier time actually! Crazy, isn't it?

And yes, where I live, it is rare that it comes down to two applicants with the EXACT same accomplishments and race becomes the sole remaining factor.

[JI7]

79. Palin was not popular among most americans, Obama won in a landslide

and while he would have won even without Palin, the huge landslide probably had a lot to do with Palin.

[treestar]

64. That's the reason it is hard to get across

And not a useful way to improve things, IMO. The average white man does not partake of apparently great privilege. Telling him he has it is no way to get him on your side. It's like telling him he must indeed be stupid and lazy since he is not a dominant alpha player and a brazillionaire - there are no barriers for him, so why is he still working or lower class or even middle class?

Might make people of color and women feel better but it exacerbates the problems they allegedly want solved. It's like people confessing to things they didn't do - a part of human nature that is inexplicable.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. No, you totally missed the point.

Nobody said being a white man makes life easy. Rather, it makes it easier compared to nonwhite people in the same situation or set of circumstances.

[Bucky]

12. Not my type of humor, but there is one thing I like about Lisa Lampanelli

No, two things

[Hello_Kitty]

14. I think that most people are able to discern several things:

1. Context.

2. Intention.

3. The background of the person making the jokes.

4. The privilege of the person making the jokes, and whether s/he is aware of it or not.

Once those constructs are established it becomes much easier to see why Lisa Lampanelli, or Chris Rock, can get away with abrasive humor among liberals while others, Andrew Dice Clay (?) cannot.

[Lost in CT]

17. 3 and 4 are irrelevant crutches... honestly unless it is self deprecating humor. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

18. But self-deprecation is the stock-in-trade of that type of humor.

Which is why Chris Rock and Lisa Lampanelli are funny to most people, while Andrew Dice Clay, Howard Stern, and Bill Maher are only funny to a few.

[Stevenmarc]

15. Lisa Lampanelli's act holds a big mirror in front of the audience

and they get to see their own soul. If Lisa makes someone uncomfortable them maybe it's time for them to look deeper within.

[TahitiNut]

16. I walk out on "victim humor" and, if I paid, demand my money back.

I will NOT support "victim humor."

[Hello_Kitty]

19. Can you give me an example of "victim humor"?

[TahitiNut]

23. Judging from your posts above, probably not.

:shrug:

I don't regard subjecting people to ridicule on their basis of their race, religion, gender, ethnicity, or sexual orientation to be "humor" ... even if under the thin disguise of "self-deprecation" like Carlos Mencia.

YMMV :shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

28. So you can't.

Thanks! :hi:

[Bluenorthwest]

37. I was a huge Chirs Rock fan for years

His last show was all about how it is ok for him to say 'faggot' and I am no longer a fan of his. Chris fails to comprehend what he creates with that stuff. Not interested anymore.

[Hello_Kitty]

40. I agree that's offensive, but how is it "victim" comedy?

That's Chris Rock being a dick and asserting his privilege.

[Lilith Velkor]

61. The victim (of oppression) is the butt of the joke

It's a confusing term, but I figured it out.

Chris Rock apparently thinks he can get away with it because he's black, but he's really (well, figuratively) asking for a Big Gay Beatdown.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

69. Not that I excuse that word, but it's taken a bit out of context.

Chris talked about the appropriate time that a white man can say the "N" word and gave an extreme example (being stabbed and nearly killed by a black man) as the only time it should be allowed.

Then he used the same setup as an appropriate time to say "faggot" and used himself as an example, sitting in his car at a green light while he sings Gwen Stefani songs out loud, which he admits to doing.

[Lost in CT]

33. Carlos Mancia is the poster boy for the racist hacks I was talking about above. nt

[TahitiNut]

41. Being part of an audience for that kind of 'humor' is a kind of "social contract" ...

... into which I refuse to enter. If, for example, I'm to be part of a racially diverse audience listening to some performer use the "n-word" then I'm part of some social dynamic that is unacceptable to me. As an older white fellow, I'm keenly aware of the oppression and hatred behind such an epithet historically. People on all ends of that dialectic were harmed. In no sense was there anything 'funny' about it. (And I have a terrific sense of humor, too.) To sit there -- and to respond with humor -- is an insult to others, imho. It would be demeaning of me and demeaning to me. Can't do it.

[rvablue]

20. Political cartoonists...while often funny...are not comedians.....there is a

different set of rules IMO.

[Initech]

22. George Carlin once said that you can joke about anything. Anything.

But the thing is - its all in how you construct the joke. Lisa Lampanelli is horrible, she doesn't take this advice at all.

[EFerrari]

26. The last time I saw Lisa, she was opening and her whole set was about tampons.

lol

[Hello_Kitty]

31. Tampons offend the patriarchs, I guess.

Because, jeez, I've heard enough shit, piss, jizzum, jokes from MEN to know that all bets are OFF when it comes to the Dudez.

[EFerrari]

32. Tampons offend me when they go on for five minutes and aren't funny.

[Lost in CT]

34. LOL perfect

:spray:

[hiphopnation]

65. "I can prove to you that rape is funny....

...picture Donald Duck raping Porky Pig."

that was a hilarious routine...

I miss George!!

:hide:

[Think82]

30. Interesting Take:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2895-LA-Political-Satire-Examiner~y2009m2d1-WHY-ARENT-REPUBLICANS-FUNNY

[seabeyond]

35. a few clever comedians are funny, most i am fed up with racist and sexist

humor at expense of group at every turn.

[Feron]

42. It depends on the context.

Blazing Saddles, for example, is full of racial slurs and stereotypes. However it works because the butts of the joke are the racists.

I've found however, that most comedians that use racial humor do it to create buzz because their routines aren't funny in the least.

[NikolaC]

43. I Believe That She Is Not A Comedian

but rather a racist hack who caters to the lowest form of stereotyping and racist beliefs out there and hiding under the "comedienne" title. I did not watch her act, but my husband was up late one night and did. He was appalled by what he saw. Among some of her jokes were calling a Polynesian couple "piss colored" I believe. I know that there are some comedians out there that poke fun at their own race and other races, but she steps over the line, way over. IMO, anyone who pays money to see her and finds her act hilarious are lying to themselves if they think that her act is just basic comedy and not overtly racist.

[LynneSin]

44. I saw the previews on HBO and thought scrubbing the toilet would be more fun that this

but that's just me. She seems to be trying to be the Carlos Mencia for women and Carlos aint' funny either.

[MellowDem]

49. As satire, yes

As actual mean spirited bigotry that just plays to an audience, no. I think satire about racism is actually quite healthy and effective at combatting it.

[AlCzervik]

54. Lisa Lampanelli is just not funny, even if she was using material written by David Cross who

is very funny she'd still be unfunny.

Hbo should have never given her a venue, she's awful.

[MajorChode]

56. I agree

Lisa Lampanelli is just offensive to me, and it really has little to do with the epitaphs she casually throws around. She's just a nasty person that I don't find funny.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Isn't that Lisa Lampanelli's schtick?

She's supposed to be a sort of drunken female Archie Bunker?

[Romulox]

59. Yup, but she styles herself more as the female Andrew Dice Clay

Archie Bunker had some subtlety to his schtick, and All in the Family is one of the best sitcoms of all time. Lampenelli is just another flash in the pan shock (schlock?) comedian.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. In that case, I'd argue it's not racist.

Although I won't lose sleep if she's falsely accused of being racist by inattentive observers.

[hiphopnation]

62. are you kidding?

joking about racism is one of the only ways for those who are targets of racism to DEAL with it. every listened to Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, Dave Chapelle?

I guess I understand the kind of joking you're talking about where the majority oppressor jokes about the minority oppressed. is that OK? who am I to tell someone they can't? all I can do is turn it off or request that they don't tell racist jokes around me. does that mean it's not funny to a certain group, even if it is racist?

comedy is a form of therapy. racism MUST be joked about if it is ever to go away...

[ellacott]

72. I agree

I was thinking about Richard Pryor as I was reading this thread. All in the Family was also a funny show because it exposed racism and made it look stupid.

I think sometimes people are too quick to take offense at certain things. I believe this is what Eric Holder was talking about.

I love Chris Rock but I don't like some of his jokes about women. That doesn't mean that I now hate Chris Rock. Everything is not funny to everybody.

[theboss]

73. That's Lampanelli's schtick; she wants to be a modern, female Rickles

I don't find her particularly funny once the shock value wore off. But she is good at roasts.

[Mr. Sparkle]

75. it's a staple of Chris Rocks act, and he seems to do ok!

[Forkboy]

76. I wouldn't base any thesis on Lampanelli's act.

Instead of constructing intelligent jokes based on race she just uses it as a device and a crutch to make up for her lack of actual comedic talent. Three quarters of comedians fall into this kind of trap in one way or another, be it race, gender, religion, etc. Any of one of us could get up there and do her act, but maybe 1% of us could do Carlin's or Eddie Izzard's or Richard Pryor's act. To me, comedy is never about the topic but about the delivery and joke structure.

[stewartcolbert08]

80. N*%GA Please! LOL

But your right, it is more accepted in jokes and especially in stand up!

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

81. I hate this unfunny desperate dumbass. She believes because she dates only black men

she has the right to say whatever stupid, grossly racist/offensive joke she wants. Somehow she believes this excuses her.