Florida budgets 3.8 million more for gun permits, cuts more school funding, waits for stimulus aid.

[madfloridian]

Talk about getting your priorities out of order?

Hat tip to FLA Politics blog for this gem.

And Florida expects federal stim money waiver?

This is plain stupid. As Florida begs for a stim money waiver, "A legislative panel on Wednesday approved $3.8 million in new spending to help cut a backlog of 90,000 applications for concealed weapons permits that one top official attributed to Florida's economic woes." "Panel OKs money to cut Fla. gun permit backlog". See also "Florida approves hire of 61 temporary workers to reduce gun permit backlog".

Background: "Florida can't keep up with concealed weapons permit requests". See also "Economy blamed for increase in concealed weapon permits in Florida" and "Gun Sales, Permit Applications Jump In Florida".

The premise of this is that people are fearful and there are not enough police standing by for them. Talk about trying to pump up fear..just like they have been doing. Get those guns ready, folks. The times are bad. Be very afraid. :eyes:

The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Affairs will hire 61 temporary workers between April 1 and June 30 to process the gun applications in Tallahassee and eight regional offices, but most of the money will go for criminal background checks.

The surge of applications began in November, said Agriculture Commissioner Charles Bronson.

"A lot of it has to do with the fact that the economy is having some tough times right now," Bronson said. "The amount of crimes are beginning to increase. I believe that people are feeling a little threatened."

Bronson said crime always increases when times are bad. He cited the case of a concealed weapons permit holder who shot and killed a shotgun-wielding man who tried to rob him at an Orlando car wash last month.

"There can't be a police officer standing by every single citizen," Bronson said. "We all know that."

Panel OKs money to cut Fla. gun permit backlog

MEANWHILE back in Tally they are cutting more school money. Getting those gun permits is priority...schools not so much.

State delivers news of steeper school-funding cuts

OCALA — School districts statewide were told by Florida’s commissioner of education on Wednesday to brace for a 16 percent reduction in funding for the 2009-10 school year — one third more than expected.

That would mean Marion County Public Schools’ budget shortfall would rise from $33 million to nearly $44 million and virtually cripple education for the entire county, as well as all other School Districts statewide.

And to top it off, it remains unclear how much money — if any — Florida schools will get in the way of stabilization funds, earmarked to help school districts stave off more layoffs. Of the four areas of stimulus funding, stabilization dollars are by far the most important because they are aimed at helping school districts stave off further teacher layoffs.

"Honestly, this is really too ugly to talk about right now," said Superintendent of Schools Jim Yancey, who winced Wednesday during a telephone conference with the Florida Department of Education.

They are continuing to gut the school funding, yet adding 3.8 million for moving along those gun permits. Outrageous.

It's already doubtful if Florida will quality for stimulus funds in education because they have cut so much.

Florida leaders counting on more than $3.5 billion from a massive federal stimulus package to shore up the state's education budget learned Thursday there could be a catch. The state may not qualify for the money because the Legislature has cut its schools budget too much.

The U.S. House of Representatives passed an $819 billion economic-recovery plan Wednesday. Under that bill, money in a special "state stabilization fund" would go only to states that could fund schools for the next two years at the levels they had in the 2005-06 school year.

But the state is below that threshold. In fact, school funding coming directly from the state is now lower than it was in the 2004-05 school year. With Florida's budget shortfall for next year ballooning toward $4 billion, it's not clear it could meet that requirement.

I agree with the FLA Politics blog...this is just plain stupid. A state that puts gun permits ahead of schools, whose Republican led legislature holds contempt for the stimulus plan...is awaiting their fair share and more. Something is just wrong with that.

[Junkdrawer]

1. Isn't that just a little slice of EXACTLY what's gone wrong with America...

Guns, not Books...

[n2doc]

2. The less they educate people, the more they vote republican

Unfortunately, that sickness is spreading northwards into Georgia, the Legislature here is going nuts over some concocted crap about "gay education" classes....

[madfloridian]

8. Swaying the uneducated mind is easy for them.

And very sad.

[L0oniX]

43. Florida schools have had about a 50% drop out rate for decades ...can it get any worse?

[Statistical]

3. The NCIS system is "free" for the states.

Well nothing is free but the NCIS = instant background check system is paid for by federal funds.

If FL residents are worried about the cost of permit system then scrap it.
VT requires no permit for conceal carry permits.

Cost to taxpayers = $0.

However the situation is slightly more complex.
FL residents PAY a permit fee.
The permit fee however goes into the general fund.

So what happened is the state collected fees from 90,000 people and then SPENT THE MONEY!
They no don't have the funds to provide the service that the residents ALREADY PAID FOR!!

So a simpler solution would to prohibit permit funds to go into general fund.
Instead they should be put into an escrow account that can ONLY be used to facilitate the permit program.

[Belial]

5. Nicely Explained

[onethatcares]

6. now wait one damned minute here

what you just posted made perfect sense. Problem is, the legislature here in Florida sadly lacks any kind of sense. That's why they're raping the cigarette lawsuit windfall also.

[Lost in CT]

9. Thank you for explaining that. nt

[madfloridian]

14. I guess I am confused. Why they did need to budget 3.8 million?

Because they needed to hire all the new people because guns are in such great demand because our AG is raising fear in people?

If it's free to the states, why do they need all that money?

[benEzra]

31. No, they have to hire the new people because they didn't hire enough to keep up

with the processing of licenses, and instead poured the money from the license fees into the general fund. The situation finally got critical when they got so far behind that they were going to exceed the statuatory time limit for license processing.

Florida handgun licenses are NOT cheap. I don't know what the current price is, but I want to say it was nearly $200 when my wife and I got ours.

[madfloridian]

37. I believe they already spent the money and emptied the fund...

and that's why they are alloting more in the budget.

Did they raid the fund like they have the Chiles tobacco fund?

I am not exactly having sympathy pains for those can't get a gun right away.

[benEzra]

76. So they took out a loan from the license fees,

and now have to pay it back. That's reasonable.

And FWIW, this has nothing to do with "getting a gun right away." It has to do with getting your carry license application processed within the time limit mandated by state law (and three months is not "right away").

The applicants already paid for the processing, and the state is required to process them within the time limit, using the money from the license fees to do so. It is not the applicants' fault that the state mismanaged the license fees.

[L0oniX]

44. The money comes from those who pay for the CWP and the education.

$125 for the CWP course, $40 for the finger prints and $85 for the state processing. Hmmmm $85 should pay for a few people to handle my application ....Y think?

[Mika]

36. Floridians and guns are not a good mix.

And I live here.

[L0oniX]

45. Criminals with guns = worse. Cut back in policing = worse.

[slackmaster]

62. That was my thought exactly

Switch to a Vermont-style system, cut the bureaucracy, and put the money into schools.

[LiberalFighter]

73. I was wondering about that. It should had been obvious that fees should pay for a service like that.

But instead they spend it on something else.

Oh... when did they convert the fees to the General Fund? During JEB's admin?

[Statistical]

4. double post (n/t)

[madfloridian]

7. More for guns, less for education.

Typical Florida Republican stance.

[L0oniX]

51. Ya know usually you have good threads. I don't what happened but you really jumped the shark...

on this one. We pay $85 for the CWP application processing and $40 for the finger prints. That money never would have gone to schools anyway.

[madfloridian]

54. I just answered you below. Your priorities are showing..

Mine are quite different. Many hundreds of teachers are being laid off while people are being hired to get those gun licenses out.

I get criticized and attacked here everyday...but your posts disturb me in your failure to see the importance.

Bye for now. Updating list. I am too angry with the idiots in my state to put up with attacks on my person here on this topic of education and guns.

[L0oniX]

56. Yea my priorites are that I pay for my CWP out of my wallet like all the other 90000 do.

[ileus]

10. took me 3 weeks to find the 9mm carbine I'd wanted.

I can't even find bulk ammo now for it.

[L0oniX]

50. Dude ...should have tried Gunbroker.com.

Heheh ...I have been raiding Walmart for cheap 9mm for practice ($8.95 for Brazer 50 box). I actually got them to call me when they get 9mmm in stock and I have to rush down there to get it before it all gets bought out. Just bought 6 boxes today when they called me early this morning.

[sakabatou]

11. They're setting themselves up for failure

[madfloridian]

16. Well, Jeb said when he was inaugurated..

that he wanted to empty the government buildings because they played too big a role.

He is still working behind the scenes. I think they wanted to have empty coffers, some of them.

[Jack_DeLeon]

12. But dont the concealed carry permits actually generate money?

The fees for the licenses go to the state to cover the cost of the program. So you higher more workers, you clean the permits and cash the checks quicker.

So in actuality funds are not being diverted.

[madfloridian]

13. Then why did they need to budget 3.8 million for it?

While cutting education to the bone?

I am speaking of budgeting money for it while taking it from education. Not sure I understand the premise of the question.

[RamboLiberal]

24. It should balance out in the wash

Those applying for the permits are paying for it.

By law, the state must process permit applications within 90 days. A permit is valid for seven years and costs $117, which includes a $44 fee for state and federal background checks and a set of fingerprints. The money to hire new employees comes from fees paid by applicants, not from general tax dollars.

Adding to the backlog of applications is that the state gives a priority to renewal forms, to avoid cases of gun owners unknowingly having their permits expire or to catch cases in which permit holders have broken the law.

Asked about the surge in gun permit applications, Gov. Charlie Crist said: ``I'm pro-gun. I think people ought to have the right to protect themselves, and if people want to get new certificates, that's their constitutional right . . . If they use those instruments responsibly and prudently and within the bounds of the law, everything should be fine.''

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/910739.html

[madfloridian]

30. Charlie's pro gun...I am pro education. Education would pay for itself also.

[L0oniX]

49. Gee ...I wonder what they are doing with the $85 I sent in for a CWP?

Doh!

[L0oniX]

46. Yes ...I am paying for the CWP and I pay for the CWP course and I pay for the finger prints.

Go figure 90,000 x $85 = money for employees. What the op is bickering about is a distraction from the truth of the matter.

[L0oniX]

63. Indeed. 90,000 x $85 per permit = $7,650,000. Whos taking money from who?

The ops thread is 100% bull shit because she is a teacher and is just pissed off about loss of jobs and is unjustly blaming gun owners who pay for a CWP.

[madfloridian]

15. Here's an interesting take on this from a Florida blogger Mom

http://nativemom.blogspot.com/2009/02/really-gun-permits-really.html

"Yesterday, our smart-as-a-box-of-rocks legislative representatives on the Legislative Budget Commission approved additional spending to handle the backlong of applications for things like unemployment compensation, food stamps and public assistance here in Florida. Ok. That makes sense.

But they also approved $3.8 million in new spending to help cut a backlog of 90,000 applications for concealed weapons permits. Really?!? Carrying a concealed weapon is now such an emergency that we need to hire 61 temporary workers between April 1 and June 30 to process the gun applications in Tallahassee and eight regional offices. Really?!?

To be fair, some of this money will be spent clearing a back log of criminal background checks. (I hope they're checking all the people who are in such a rush to carry a concealed weapon.) I don't know if this was the brainchild of our illustrious Agriculture Commissioner Charles Bronson. But he defended the additional spending to process the backlog of concealed weapons permits, and I quote, "A lot of it has to do with the fact that the economy is having some tough times right now," Bronson said. "The amount of crimes are beginning to increase. I believe that people are feeling a little threatened."

Maybe we could better fund our police and safety programs in the state with that $3.8 million instead. Maybe, oh and I know this is silly, we could pay for some more crime prevention programs. Nah, let's just arm as many people in the state as possible. Do it yourself crime-fighting. I guess do-it-yourself roadwork and bridge construction is next."

My sentiments. Fear of not having a concealed weapon...priority?

[gula]

23. Wise words, unfortunately insanity is the in flavour

[benEzra]

32. They already took the millions of dollars in fees from the license applicants...

and spent the money on other stuff. Yet they are required by law to process the licenses, and THEY ALREADY TOOK THE MONEY.

If you pay the DMV $150 to issue you a license plate, and they spent the $150 on other stuff instead of processing your plate application, would you be OK with them not issuing you a plate? Or would you insist that they hired enough people to actually process your license plate application?

[L0oniX]

47. 90,000 x $85 = money to pay for the employees who process the CWP's.

[madfloridian]

17. Some who never had or wanted guns are buying them because they fear restrictions

with Obama as president. I don't listen to right wing radio, but I guess someone is pushing this fear?

http://www.bradenton.com/business/story/1238035.html

"MANATEE — In recent months Mike Magowan has seen customers lined up out the door to sign up for the concealed weapon classes he teaches at Take Aim Gun Range in Sarasota.

“We’ve had some pretty big classes,” Magowan says. “And we don’t really even advertise that much.”

Gun sales at the store also have taken off.

“I know we’re a lot busier than we used to be and it started right before the election,” Magowan said. “I actually had a guy tell me he never wanted a gun, he never bought a gun, but he was afraid he wouldn’t be able to get one in the future.”

Some attribute it to fear that President Obama will take a tougher stance than past presidents on gun ownership. Others cite the deplorable state of the economy and increase in home invasions and property crimes.

But one thing is clear: gun sales and concealed weapon permits are on the rise locally and throughout the state."

Just one state of fear after another. If it's not terror alerts, it is fear of your neighbors, fear of Obama.

[Lex1775]

18. They are trying to remain in compliance with their own statute.

Florida Concealed Weapon or Firearm Statute

790.06 - License to carry concealed weapon or firearm

(c) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall, within 90 days after the date of receipt of the items listed in subsection (5): 1. Issue the license; or 2. Deny the application based solely on the ground that the applicant fails to qualify under the criteria listed in subsection (2) or subsection (3).

By law they only have 90 days to process an application.

[madfloridian]

19. I guess I am thinking of the many hundreds of teachers being laid off.

I heard the figure of 1200 in our county, not just teachers. I know that one county is laying off over 500 teachers.

I have never seen such teacher layoffs. Never in the many years I taught, and not since I retired.

It is shocking to see it. It's never happened. But the legislature in their wisdom can find 3.8 million among the shambles of the state's economy so the people who are so afraid can have their concealed weapons.

There are priorities out of order.

[JCMach1]

22. My cousin's husband is one of those that will be terminated...

What's worse, new teachers are on one year contracts so they will not even qualify for unemployment.

[madfloridian]

25. I am so sorry.

I know you had mentioned it being a possibility. I am waiting nervously to hear about some friends here who have not yet retired.

[JCMach1]

59. Yeah, this is the husband of the fundy (i.e. crazy) cousin that was having all of the kids

Think one at a time octomom... But as they would say, "God will provide"...

ME, I'm not so sure. I just hope she's not pregnant again.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

67. Terminated or laid off.

[Lex1775]

27. What would you have them do?

The law is the law. By law, they HAVE to process these applications within 90 days. Look at the situation from their point of view:

You have this massive backload of people seeking CCW permits. Your law states you must process them within 90 days. You estimate it will cost 3.8 million to do so. If you DON'T do it you could have hundreds of people filing lawsuits against the state, lawsuits that the state has to spend time and, more importantly, money processing. Even a few dozen lawsuits could easily push the cost beyond 3.8 million, causing further economic strain. So, by coughing up the 3.8 million now they could be saving themselves millions of dollars further down the road.

I sympathize with you about the teachers, I really do. My wife and most of her family are all public educators out here in AZ. All of them are worried that our budget problems will lead to mass teacher layoffs as well. However, they get so fixated on the Education aspect of the state budget that they forget it is only a single piece of the budget "pie".

[madfloridian]

28. I am sorry, but I refuse to justify this.

Not that it matters. Nothing matters in this state unless the Republicans like the idea.

Logic escapes me at the moment. This is piss poor planning, and I have no sympathy.

[MattBaggins]

41. Just like they do in any other case

Gee we're in a bunch and we are really sorry but we won't be getting that workload finished. We are making an emergency measure to give ourselves another 90 days.

That is exactly what they will do with all the other so called "statutes" or "mandates" they have to comply with. The only obligation they felt was beyond cutting or extending was the one to make sure the gun huggers are happy.

[MattBaggins]

39. By their own statutes they are required to fund their schools

apparently those statutes are negotiable.

[SoCalDem]

20. Use the childrennnnnn for target pratice.. problem solved

do I really need the :sarcasm: thingie??:evilgrin:

[1monster]

21. Don't count on that Stimulus money for schools in Florida. States will only get that

if they meet certain spending criteria (school budgeting up a certain amount from 2006 budgets; Florida's is down), which Florida does not.

Supposedly, our House Reps and Senators are asking for a waiver of that rule for Florida, but who knows whether or not it will be granted.

Florida is 50 out of 50 for education funding per child. Is it possible to fall lower than the lowest?

[madfloridian]

26. You are right. I have been writing a lot about that. Very worried.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3592

[Baikonour]

29. As if there isn't ENOUGH gun-related crimes in Florida.

Idiots.

[benEzra]

34. Not by CHL holders, though.

The violent crime rate among FL CHL holders is lower than the rate among FL police officers, IIRC. Most of the crime is the result of people who couldn't get a state license to carry even if they cared enough to try.

[madfloridian]

38. Yeh, well, teachers are not known for violence much either.

They are known for educating our kids.

[benEzra]

75. Yup. So if someone were fearmongering about violence by teachers,

it would be appropriate to gently point that out.

[madfloridian]

86. That 3.8 million could keep many teachers working this year.

There is no denying that.

[benEzra]

87. Yep. So FL should have raised taxes by 3.8 million

instead of stealing the money from license fees to pay for whatever else they used it for.

Again, if FL had taken $3.8 million from license plate fees and refused to issue you a plate you paid $150 for because they decided to take your plate money and pay for beach erosion mitigation instead, would you consider that good fiscal management? What if they realized they were legally obligated to reallocate that $3.8 million back to license processing (which the law requires) and somebody suggested that the government just refuse to issue your plate THAT YOU ALREADY PAID FOR because "teachers are more important than cars"?

Education is a good thing. But license fees are not slush fund money; they are not lottery proceeds; they are fees paid for the processing of licenses.

[michreject]

35. Idiot is right

Some idiots even think that those going through the process to buy a gun legally are responsible for the gun crimes.

[L0oniX]

48. LOL ...so true. Blame the people who legally obtain a gun ...bizzaro world.

[Baikonour]

52. No one was claiming they were.

Instead of actually doing something about the gun violence, they're making it easier to obtain CH licenses?

Indeed, it is bizarro world.

[FloriTexan]

33. 4 month wait for first unemployment check...

A caller to the Thom Hartmann show today said she had to wait four months for her first unemployment check because they can't afford to hire personnel at the unemployment commission to process the large amount of claims that are pouring in. Priorities out of whack indeed.

[madfloridian]

40. That's terrible.

Was the caller from Florida? It's pretty bad here with unemployment funds not available, and offices not taking applications....having to do it all online.

[FloriTexan]

94. She was from Florida,

but I don't know which area. She mentioned the problems filing online but said it was better than trying to call.

[L0oniX]

42. They are going to cut back on police services because the state and our county are out of money.

There are 5 sexual predators living within 500 feet of my home. There was a robbery assault 5 blocks away this month and there have been 3 home robberies within 1000 feet of my home. I don't pay attention to the fear tactics but I do pay attention to what goes on around me and my home and I will protect my wife and myself. Just because there's no crime on your door step doesn't mean it's not happening. You think one should wait for the police to get there when there's a threat to ones life? How long do you think it takes for the police to get there ...if you can manage to make the phone call? Call me stupid ...I don't give a damn ...it's my life, not yours and I will protect it! BTW I am paying for the CWP and the education for it so that money should go for employees who handle my application and that has nothing to do with the funding for schools. As far as the Florida schools go, they are failures with about a 50% drop out rate and that's with enough money? A cut back in funding at this point isn't going to make it much worse. I am a property owner and I pay the taxes for those fucking failing schools while everyone else who rents doesn't pay. Maybe if they made everyone pay we'd have enough for the schools. And yea landlords pay into the school fund too but percentage wise not as much as the individual private property owner. Bickering over who gets what little money is left for state services and blaming gun owners for the lack of funds for schools is just ridiculous. Blame Bush and Phil Graham and blame all the rich bastards who put us in this mess.

[madfloridian]

53. You know what? Adding 3.8 million for guns, taking hundreds of millions

from education.

Not even a close comparison.

Your comments are very telling about you, you yourself.

You said:

"As far as the Florida schools go, they are failures with about a 50% drop out rate and that's with enough money? A cut back in funding at this point isn't going to make it much worse. I am a property owner and I pay the taxes for those fucking failing schools while everyone else who rents doesn't pay. Maybe if they made everyone pay we'd have enough for the schools. And yea landlords pay into the school fund too but percentage wise not as much as the individual private property owner. Bickering over who gets what little money is left for state services and blaming gun owners for the lack of funds for schools is just ridiculous. Blame Bush and Phil Graham and blame all the rich bastards who put us in this mess."

Pathetic.

[L0oniX]

55. Your comments are very telling about you as well. CWP's are paid for by the applicant...

not school funds. Your entire thread is bull shit.

[minavasht]

57. Maybe

spending more money is not the answer?
We spend a lot of money on education and for some reason our kids do not do nearly as good as kids from much poorer countries.
Hungary spends 1/3 of the money we spend per student and their kids outperform ours in math and science all the time.
Just saying...

[madfloridian]

58. Oh, good Lord above.

That is not what the post was about. I have heard that argument here in our right wing loving area for years. They all talk big and bad about...the teachers that is...about how throwing money at education doesn't work.

Of course the hell it works.

This thread has sure shown me a thing or two about how people really view the importance of guns vs the importance of a good public education.

I almost don't feel sorry for some of the rabid right winger teachers who will be losing their jobs....cause they don't think public education should be funded.

And I don't care who gets guns. This is not an anti-gun post.

It's getting pretty pathetic here at this forum. Someone I respect got viciously attacked today even by the admins here for posting about how Bill Clinton should not have crossed a union/LGBT picket line. He should not have of course, and the poster should not have piled on.

But that's the way things are here. Even if the poster is right, one must argue and change the subject. Can't let a good discussion go on.

[L0oniX]

64. The reason IMO is that parents do not teach their children anything and ...

expect the schools to do it all. Then there's the assholes who don't discipline their kids and those kids carry that into the schools and disrupt the teaching process. The teachers can't discipline the kids with anything that makes an imprint so as to change behavior. The 45 to 50% drop out rate in Florida has been that way for a long time ...over a decade. People think you can just throw money at a problem and it should go away and that it doesn't work. Apparently the op thinks blaming the 90000 people who paid $85 each (over 7 million dollars)for a CWP are the problem ...duh!

[Paladin]

65. Take That Attitude Over To FreiRepublik Where It Will Be Appreciated. (n/t)

[minavasht]

72. Can you

please address the facts, not the messenger?

[madfloridian]

77. Not in a case like this. It is hard to separate the two.

When it comes to education and guns, and a person posts that funding education doesn't matter?

Hard to take that seriously.

[minavasht]

78. Let me see

I point that we spend a LOT of money on education. I also point that other countries spend a lot LESS money on education and their students perform much BETTER than ours in science.
And yes, I am from Eastern Europe, there were 30 kids in my class, my textbooks were 2 or 3 year old and they only had black and white graphics, no fancy pictures. And we wrote with chalk on black boards (I hear they changed that last year).
This has nothing to do with guns.

[madfloridian]

79. But you can not educate children without good teachers.

This post was not advocating fancy stuff spent on education. They have already done away with many art and music programs. I was simply expressing the view that education should be considered a priority.

They are for the first time in my memory laying off hundreds and hundreds of teachers.

You have to pay teachers. They can not work for nothing.

I have taught as many as 40 kids in a primary class and did a good job....but it is way too many.

My textbooks were over 10 years old, no science, and raggedy social studies books.

Yes, we here in the states have heard of chalk and blackboards as well.

:shrug:

Yes, it has to do with guns. How many teachers would the 3.8 million keep from being laid off.

[minavasht]

81. I don't know -

what is the average salary? Somebody mentioned $40.000 a year? - then it is close to 100.
And don't forget, those 90,000 applicants have already payed for their licenses, the state spent their money on something else.
It is not a matter of priorities.

[Quantess]

85. You don't have any idea what you are talking about. Teacher Salary increases with tenure.

When I first graduated with my Masters Degree in Speech Pathology in 1999, I got a job with the San Francisco Unified School District for 29,500, and then minus the health & dental insurance. That was the 2nd most miserable job I ever had.

The MOST miserable job I ever had was working at a Clackamas County High School, being hired, on paper, to be a Speech Pathologist, but instead working as a study hall tutoring teacher. Only half the students assigned to my class had special education in their IEP, and of those, only half had speech-language IEPS. The other half were there because they were lazy, spoiled, troublemakers who played their parents into thinking they needed extra assistance to get through high school, to have a class period to goof off. I had the delight of being their teacher. Yeah, right.

And, I was a new teacher in their district that year, so I got the going rate for entry level Teacher in 2003. It sure as hell wasn't near $40,000.

[minavasht]

95. Like I said - I don't know

Somebody mentioned this number recently, we were talking about teachers in Seminole county here in Florida, and it did seem high to me.
OK, if it's $30,000 then it is a little over 100 teachers - does this make you happy?
Actually the number is irrelevant - those 90,000 applicant payed the fee and should receive the service and this has nothing to do with teachers.

[Quantess]

82. As a former Special Educator, I have some insight about "where all the money goes".

Lawsuits and Special Education. Sometimes, the lawsuits are about inadequate or inappropriate education for students with special needs. Schools are, and should be, very afraid of lawsuits, because they seem to happen a lot.

[LanternWaste]

90. Therefore the corollary is also true...?

So as to take your post-hoc-ergo-prompter-hoc argument to its fallacious end, therefore the corollary is also true...? Remove money from the education system and the grades will improve?

Or...

However, I find this scenario much more likely-- although the educational system in the U.S. is better than that of Hungary, our students do poorer because they have parents that each work full time jobs preventing more parental involvement because your sacred-cow of a free market dictates that health-care for one family costs about what just one parent makes...?

Just sayin'... :eyes:

[marmar]

60. As evidenced by some of the responses to this post, that's sadly fine with some people....

I got mah gunz, screw them kids......

:eyes:

[L0oniX]

61. 90,000 x $85 = $7,650,000. Whos taking money from who?

I can't believe the lack of knowledge in this thread. ...You have to pay $85 for a CWP application. This thread is about 100% bull shit. If anything they will be taking some of the $7,650,000 already paid for CWP's and giving it to other needs. People really need to check out the facts before getting on the self righteous anti gun because it takes money from schools train.

[madfloridian]

66. I really was surprised at some of the reactions.

I guess I should have known better.

Kind of sad.

[spin]

68. Why? The license fees will generate far more money...

than $3.8 million. It looks like a surplus of at least $3.85 million will be generated. Since many of the fees will be for initial licenses which cost $117 rather than the $85 charged for renewal, I would expect that considerably more money will be generated. This money could be used for programs such as schools.

The concealed weapons program in Florida has been successful and has been copied by many states.

The individuals who hold CCW permits rarely commit violent crime with their weapons. Having more armed honest citizens on the streets may actually decrease crime.

Currently there are 547,276 valid concealed carry permits in Florida. From October 1, 1987 - January 31, 2009, 1,445,522 licenses were issued. Only 166 of those were rejected for crimes involving firearms.

I would suggest that if you are really disturbed by the concealed weapons program in Florida that you consider moving to a more firearm unfriendly state like Illinois. You may be able to help stop the movement in that state to allow the carry of concealed weapons.

info from the Florida Division of Licensing...http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

[madfloridian]

69. You would suggest what for me? You can have all the damn guns who want.

First off you really misread my post, and you are putting your own interpretation on it.

Secondly, I don't give a damn who owns a gun, who is scared of Obama, or who is terrified of something or other.

They could just as easily keep some of the teachers they are firing.

I am so tired of people here who put down education and get on their high horses about the right to bear arms. We can have both, education and guns....

I am also very tired of being misread and misunderstood.

I don't care about guns, I care about education.

I don't care if people are so scared they have to carry concealed weapons. That is their business.

The state should not be giving more money for guns and taking it away from education.

Now you can come back with some cutesy remark to me. I am getting used to it here at DU.

[spin]

71. Sorry I misinterpreted your viewpoint...

However reading through your replies, I can see how I got that impression.

It might have been a good idea to make the statement "I AM NOT ADVOCATING TAKING AWAY YOUR GUNS, FOLKS" in your original post rather than reply #70.

In your post that I am replying to you stated:

I don't care about guns, I care about education.

That would also express your viewpoint in a manner that would not have been misinterpreted.

But then you said:

I don't care if people are so scared they have to carry concealed weapons. That is their business.


Sometimes people have a good reason to be scared.

For example, my daughter has a restraining order on a man who is stalking her and my grandchildren. The police have arrested this individual once already for violation of the order. His trial date for this charge is approaching, but he has continued to violate the order. (Note, this is not a domestic situation.)

Fortunately, my daughter already has a concealed carry permit. I would be very upset if she had applied to obtain one and the fact that the system was overloaded was postponing its issuance.

There may be others in a similar situation as my daughter who are applying for a carry permit. How does the state of Florida separate those with a definite reason to carry from those who merely want one? What would happen if some woman was to be murdered by a stalker who had an delayed application for her permi?

True, Florida school systems are in dire need of funds. The entire educational system in the states needs money to move into the 21st century. We need to utilize computers more and develop interactive educational programs that will make students more interested in learning.

That would make a good subject for another post.

edited to add comment

[madfloridian]

70. DAMN I am NOT trying to take your GUNS away. Stop being so defensive.

I just think education should come first.

I AM NOT ADVOCATING TAKING AWAY YOUR GUNS, FOLKS

Relax. Take a deep breath, and remember the time when America had a good public education system.

EEEEEEEK

[Lorien]

74. There are a lot of people here and in our not-so-fair state who put guns

before all else-INCLUDING education. It's the thumb-sucking bed wetter brigade as far as I'm concerned. They wait and wait and wait for that day when they finally do get attacked (if that day ever comes) and they get to use that beloved gun to kill a "bad guy". Meanwhile the "bad guy" became that way because he was so poorly educated that he resorted to a life of crime to survive. Funny how that works, huh? We're all creating a situation where a significant portion of the population feels the need to live and die by the gun, and yet the calls we hear aren't for better education so that the entire population is lifted up, it's for more guns to "defend" ourselves against those who are beaten down. :crazy:

[benEzra]

88. So, if you paid $150 for a car license plate and the state spent the money on beach erosion

and refused to issue you the plate YOU PAID $150 FOR, would you complain? Consider yourself a "thumb sucking bed wetter"? Or would you hold the state responsible for misappropriating the funds in the first place?

This is not about gun licenses vs. education; it is about the state initially misappropriating license fees and then trying to correct the error.

[LanternWaste]

93. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on self-inflicted martyrdom

"I AM NOT ADVOCATING TAKING AWAY YOUR GUNS, FOLKS"

From all the responses I've read to your posts, it appears that Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on self-inflicted and overly-dramatic martyrdom. There seems to be a lot of people who translate "I don't care about guns..." as "why do you want to take my guns away...?

Martyrdom. It's not just for breakfast anymore.



I see your "eeek" and raise you a "blech!" :)

[KoKo]

80. Thanks for keeping us posted. I think Florida as Retirement Destination for

myself and many folks I know is being diminished day by day with their politicians choices.

It's a nice place to visit ....but who would want to live there for retirement given what's going on.

:-(

[friendly_iconoclast]

83. You have every right to be angry about the schools, but it's not the gun owners' doing

Florida schools would still suck if there were no gun permits whatsoever.

I know- I'm the 'beneficiary' of a Florida public education. The schools were generally
bad in the Seventies and worse today. I just lucked out in having gone to high school in
a 'nice' suburb. The district was happy to spend money on the schools in the mostly
white/upscale sections of the county (Palm Beach).
If you were poor and/or African-American, too bad so sad!

The $3.8M has already been paid by the permit applicants. None of it would be
in the general fund if it wasn't for them. And (as others have pointed out) the state
is actually running a profit from the permit fees.

So, why the hate?

[madfloridian]

84. Wow, lots of folks coming to this thread to talk about bad education...

and making sure I know how bad it is...that throwing money at it will not help.

The 3.8 could keep a lot of teachers from being laid off right now.

[friendly_iconoclast]

91. The schools do need money, but the permit applicants aren't taking it from them

In fact, the state appears to be getting a rakeoff of 50% or so on the fees already paid.

If they don't spend the money on personnel to handle backround checks, the law requires the state
to issue CHL permits to the applicants.

So, the state of Florida has several choices:

1- Don't spend the money already paid by the applicants, don't do the background checks and
issue the permits as the law requires, resulting in one or more unqualified persons getting a
CHL permit (and yes, they *do* try already).

2- Don't spend the money, don't issue the permits (in violation of FL law, as has been pointed out)
and get sued by more than one permit applicant. The state would certainly lose, costing far more than
$3.8 million.

3- Go the Vermont/Alaska route and not require permits at all. This would mean that instead of
whatever overage obtains from the fees paid by the permit applicants, the Sunshine State would get
100% of nothing.

4- Go ahead and spend the money, take the $3M+ profit and issue the CHL permits.

What would you recommend?

[spin]

89. By law Florida must process the applications within 90 days...

or they are automatically approved.

As applications for gun permits stack up, the state has reported a spike in phone calls from impatient applicants, and at least 140 large tubs in a Tallahassee office building are filled with unprocessed applications.

By law, the state must process permit applications within 90 days or they are automatically approved. A permit is valid for seven years and costs $117, which includes a $44 fee for state and federal background checks and a set of fingerprints. The money to hire new employees comes from fees paid by applicants, not from general tax dollars. underlining mine

Adding to the backlog of applications is that the state gives a priority to renewal forms, to avoid cases of gun owners unknowingly having their permits expire or to catch cases in which permit holders have broken the law.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article976999.ece

It would seen an excellent idea to hire the people to process the applications correctly rather than to pass out concealed carry permits like candy because you can't get to them in time.

[Initech]

92. They can have my math book when they pry it from my cold dead hands.