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Is America Threatened by 'Terrorist' Forces in Afghanistan?

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:14 AM
Original message
Is America Threatened by 'Terrorist' Forces in Afghanistan?
Republics demanded virtue. Monarchies could rely on coercion and “dazzling splendor” to suppress self-interest or factions; republics relied on the goodness of the people to put aside private interest for public good. The imperatives of virtue attached all sorts of desiderata to the republican citizen: simplicity, frugality, sobriety, simple manners, Christian benevolence, duty to the polity. Republics called on other virtues—spiritedness, courage—to protect the polity from external threats. Tyrants kept standing armies; republics relied on free yeomen, defending their own land." -James A. Monroe The Democratic Wish: Popular Participation and the Limits of American Government


A great deal of the responses and posts about the occupation in Afghanistan have expressed support for the escalating mission there citing threats to the U.S that would supposedly come from that country if we abated our military actions and left the Afghans to sort out their own problems.

The premise of those arguments that cite a threat to the U.S. coming from Afghanistan is that there are terrorists there determined to harm the U.S. - like the 9-11 hijackers did - and that our military actions in that country have prevented (and are preventing) another terrorist attack on our soil. I'm just not convinced of that.

The original 9-11 hijackers and their accomplices didn't need the Taliban in Afghanistan, in particular, to train or equip them. They certainly relied on a network of funds which allowed them to find safe haven in the U.S.. Two of the hijackers, Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi received flight training at Florida’s Pensacola Naval Air Station. (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0208/S00085.htm)

Hani Hanjour, the Saudi pilot who flew American Airlines flight 77 into the Pentagon, "had lived in the United States off and on throughout the 1990s, mostly in Arizona, intermittently taking flying lessons at several different flying schools." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/28/AR2005042801315.html)

11 hijackers were reportedly living in Florida and New Jersey, spending time in cites of California and other spots around the U.S. before they set out on their deadly mission. So, certainly they needed money and other support.

But, the point is that there is nothing special about Afghanistan which makes it a launching pad for attacks against the United States. Many of the Taliban in that region (about 90%) don't have regular or ready access to even rudimentary technology, like cellphones. And, there is nothing particular to the 'training' alleged to occur under al-Qaeda or the Taliban's guidance which would give a terrorist bent on a violent attack on America any advantage that couldn't be obtained anywhere else. It's not as if these types of dangerous adversaries are necessarily restricted to the areas that our forces are now occupying, or even right outside of that occupation zone, in Pakistan.

Certainly, these resistant, armed elements in Afghanistan and Pakistan represent a threat to the precarious regimes in power and authority. The resources that potential terrorists would have access to from compliant and complicit regimes is a danger. And, there is a remote possibility of a change in government which could advantage objectionable groups in the countries.

But, the issue of the governance of these nations we're occupying isn't a zero-sum game. It's not a necessarily lasting remedy to just replace an objectionable regime with a friendly one. There is still the prospect of a resistance movement to that imposed regime-change upsetting the balance of power to the degree that's occurring right now in Afghanistan surrounding the activities of reportedly corrupt Karzai regime.

There's also the limiting issue of the demonstrated counterproductive effect in the region of the presence and operation of U.S. forces against the population. It is a documented fact that the primary effect of our 7-year plus military interference in Afghanistan has been a swelling of the ranks of those who have resigned themselves to violent resistance against our military advance on their homeland. The result of our interference has been an aligning of once disparate groups there with our nemesis, al-Qaeda, in support of that resistance.

When do we acknowledge that, as Obama's own Pentagon leaders and advisers have said (ultimately), that our grudging military is no longer the solution, but the problem in Afghanistan?

I believe we're going to see a move by our allies, as they reluctantly sign on for another extension of their commitment in Afghanistan, to separate their own goals there from America's retaliatory mission to avenge the 9-11 attacks. The fight in that country has become a battle against the effects of that flailing offense against any and all targets that could be identified as 'militant' or 'insurgent'. That may well serve the defensive needs of the invading and occupying NATO forces, but it is a self-perpetuating fight against the effects of their own misguided militarism.

It should be remembered that the original foment against the U.S. from these terrorist elements advantaged itself from resistance to our opportunistic military presence in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the region. Despite our retaliatory moves against those who chose to attack our nation for that trespass, we did, in fact, pull back from some of those overt military bases and outposts in deference to the protesting populations.

I believe that our allies would welcome a separation of their own mission assisting NATO in Afghanistan from the U.S. grudge match against al-Qaeda. That's what it has been, that's what it is today; a grudge match. Most of the targets of our military attacks are not directed against any original 9-11 terror cell, but rather the leaders and elements of resistance to our swaggering attacks across their sovereign borders.

There are certainly dangerous elements of that resistance, but their main enterprise is to draw America and our allies further into our self-generating militarism, in order to draw even more of the population of Afghanistan and Pakistan into support and participation in violent acts against the U.S., our interests, and our allies. Our military occupation and its planned escalation will undoubtedly continue to contribute to all of that in a tragic way.

What I am hoping for from the Obama administration is a definition of the mission there which separates our own need for justice in apprehending or eliminating the original 9-11 terrorists from the task of quelling the violent resistance to our presence and toward the regimes we're so intent on protecting. That will take a 'surge' of diplomatic activity which will not bear any overreaching or overbearing military campaign across the border with Pakistan.

We will likely not be successful in eliminating every individual who says they're aligned with one of the terrorist rival groups, like al-Qaeda or elements of the Taliban, but we can foster an environment where these objectionable groups' main enterprise of recruiting the resisting and displaced population to their violent cause is stifled and replaced with our own lure of ungrudging mutual assistance and development.

As the president has said, 'al-Qaeda isn't building schools, hospitals, or homes . . . they're destroying and tearing down, not building up the people in Afghanistan. We must make certain that our main enterprise is similarly constructive and that our military activities don't overshadow or negate our diplomacy and outreach which will be essential to the 'success' we all say we want to see there.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. We are threatened by Cheney and the lunatics who are still loyal to him.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. No, but we are threatened by wealthy fascist plutocrats
Edited on Fri Feb-20-09 11:38 AM by ixion
that threat is clear, present and dire.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. no, man!
but we don't have to take their shit!

we should kick their ass!

show 'em who's running things around here!

if you let one punk make you look stupid, then all the germs will want a piece of you!

I say let's kick their ass!











:sarcasm: not that anyone should need it
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Keeping it real:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm sure that's one of the things Karzai talked about in his visit to Pakistan
. . . given his reported past ties to Unacol.

The oil pipeline may be the impetus for a closer relationship between Pakistan and Afghanistan. That may be a decade or more from realization I think, though.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. The pipeline would take oil from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan and Pakistan to India
as I understand it. It's not like the pipeline is designed to bring oil to the US or Europe.

Why is the current system (tankers, I assume) for getting oil to India and Pakistan preferable to a pipeline? You could make a case that a pipeline through Afghanistan, Pakistan and into India would give those governments a reason to cooperate with each other which would not be a bad thing in that part of the world.

The Taliban signed on to the pipeline project in 1998. It's not like the Taliban opposed it and gave us a reason to want to get rid of them. If I was Unocal (one of the leaders of the group), I might prefer the Taliban to rule Afghanistan. (I assume Unocal doesn't care what happens to Afghan women or any other aspect of the Taliban's philosophy, just that it would promote and protect the pipeline.) They approve of the pipeline and would be the most effective at providing security for it. The current government couldn't prevent the Taliban from blowing the pipeline up, if it ever got built.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. .
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. No...hell, American forces in Afgh aren't even threatened by
terrorist forces over there. It could be the season (winter and AQ being esentially light infantry), but the current threat has presented itself as very anemic. That could all change, tho, this spring as the poppy eradication efforts go into full swing.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. yeah, Squatch
. . . it's likely the snow slowing them down. Who knows, though? Some reports today have Taliban members registering to vote with none of the big attacks yet on the registering population or the registration centers.

I did read one report which reasons that the Taliban is slowly moving toward the capital, even surrounding Kabul, but the military doesn't buy that.

I agree that it should get hot with the drug lords defending their enterprise against a NATO push.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
9. Those are great points
I wonder if our military and Obama really believes that militarily eliminating Afghanistan as a "safe haven" for terrorism will protect us against terrorism. The idea seems so absurd that it's hard to fathom that they could really believe it.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I get the sense
. . . that the folks he's chosen to advise and lead our defense and intelligence agencies are true believers at heart. I've been dreaming on a cabinet and leadership which would assume a decidedly progressive position on these challenges, but I don't think that's what Pres. Obama felt comfortable with.

Is his pragmatism grounded in political reality, or is it a reflection of his actual beliefs? I predict an emerging policy in which his 'progressiveness' will be reflected in the limits he places on his acquiescence to the decidedly conservative positions of his military establishment.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Unfortunately, until we offer these sadists (war mongers) a worthy alternative,
(read as something with a viable profitable margin) they won't
jump the fence on war and begin the healing process.  Instead
they continue to threaten peoples lives.  Maybe Obama is
placating to save us as well as his life and his family, but
he is cool enough to give a little, take a little, and keep
the balls rolling and the flesh refreshed by keeping in
action.  

The problem with a profit motive in a mercenary group is that
more people have to die for them to make more money. That is
sick, psychotic and brain dead.  We can't let this continue. 
We have to take the gun away from the baby. 

The rich want to hold on to their military industrial complex
and its slaves to continue to exercise their ability to freely
profit from genocide. The profiteers of war cause people to
rape, plunder and steal, to sell more weapons.  

The investors are supporting a world where the military can
trigger the sons and daughters of all nations, causing
populations of our  humanity to perpetrate against self.  As
long as they can hire folks to work for them, they can
continue to do the work they have no stomach for doing
themselves, and no wish to see in the news.  As long our kids
are starving, they will join.

In all fairness to everything decent, we need an authentic and
free press. 


I need a real intelligent press.  Half the time the ditz's on
all of the news stations really piss me off, both right and
left, they are so stupidly petty.

Right now, democraticunderground.com gives me a place to go
for community, sharing of news stories, 
and it isn't even regulated nor licensed to do so.

I thank you.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. I wonder who the Afghan people consider the terrorists in this matter?
I know if we had someone dropping bombs on my neighbors house as they slept I would know who the terrorists really were.

Don
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. In my personal experience dealing with the Afghan people
I have yet to meet one person who is not grateful of the American presence there. True, before my deployment and armed with a healthy dose of DU-style cynicism about OEF, I had anticipated meeting a mix of Afghans who were alternatively bitter or resentful of the US presence there. However, my experiences over there have completely shattered my preconceived notions and I really believe that the Afghans are hopeful that our military actions there will ultimately secure their future.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks for the "on the ground" insight. Opinions differ here, obviously, but some
don't question the goal of a better future for Afghans, but rather, given the politics and geography of the region, whether that goal is realistically attainable. Since the Taliban will be in the tribal area of Pakistan pretty much forever and in the mountainous border region between the two countries, is any attempt to achieve political goals in Afghanistan doomed to failure in the long run?
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Here are some results from a recent poll conducted there
http://www.andhranews.net/Intl/2009/February/10/Support-operations-Afghanistan-89034.asp

Support for US operations in Afghanistan declining: Poll

Washington, Feb 10 : The support for US operations in Afghanistan is declining, with air strikes being a chief concern, according to a poll conducted by ABC News.

A quarter of the Afghans polled said that attacks on American or allied forces are justifiable, double the proportion saying so in late 2006. snip

At the same time, ratings of US forces have declined precipitously; 32 percent said US and coalition forces are performing well, down from 68 percent in 2005. And fewer than half of the respondents, 42 percent, have confidence in coalition forces to provide security in their areas.

Most troubling to the Afghans are US airstrikes and civilian casualties. One in five said coalition forces have killed civilians in their area in the past year, and one in six reported nearby bombing or shelling at the hands of US forces.

About eight in 10 called coalition air strikes unacceptable, viewing the risk to innocent civilians as greater than the value of these raids in fighting the Taliban and other anti-government insurgents.

The poll, conducted by the Afghan Center for Socio-Economic and Opinion Research in Kabul for ABC News, the BBC and ARD German television, found that 47 percent hold a favorable view of the United States, down from 83 percent in 2005.

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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. wow, that's very interesting; that should be an OP if it hasn't been.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. this one aspect of the BBC poll bears Squatch's observations out
09.02.2009

"Sixty-three per cent support the presence of US forces – down from 71% in 2007 and 78% in 2006. Support for other foreign forces, including Britain, stands at 59%, down from 67% last year and 78% in 2006. There's an increase in the number of people who think foreign forces should start pulling out straight away – 21%, up from 14% last year (when the question addressed only US forces)."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2009/02_february/09/afghanistan.shtml


Although down from last year, this poll shows a remarkable acceptance of the U.S. presence, give all of the other poor ratings.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yes, that's an important figure.
I spoke with an Afghan student this week who thinks that the escalation is long overdue. He wasn't thrilled with the Karzai government because of the corruption, but believed that more effective democracy was the only way to fix that. He was quite adamant that only through strong foreign military support could Afghanistan avoid military and political disaster. The poll figure you cite suggests that many Afghans may agree with that assessment. I'm not sure what to think about the escalation. If civilian casualties decline as a result, and stable democratic government is preserved, then I'm open to the possibility that it is the right thing to do. But because there are so many less costly ways than war to help others, I am inclined to think that there may well be better uses of the relevant resources.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
14. I'm skeptical of the proposition
that Obama is escalating the war in Afghanistan simply for the skae of reducing the ranks of potential terrorists in Afgahnistan. As you suggest, that would be idiotic. The aim is to prevent the collapse of the governments in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and to improve those governments. I don't know enough about the situation over there to know whether that aim can be achieved. But I would need more evidence that our military presence is "no longer the solution, but the problem in Afghanistan."
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
18. NO n/t
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