What happens in a total collapse of the economy?

[GiveMeFreedom]

I am curious and afraid at the same time. Personally, I do not know what will happen.

Will martial law be declared?
How will that work?
Who will be in charge?
What is and will there be anarchy?
What other form of civil unrest can happen?
Will public services, like water treatment, sewer, garbage cease?
What is the best action for people to take if this happens?

These are just questions I have and I am not wishing or hoping for such a thing to happen. I would like to be prepared, though! Just in case and maybe that's like getting baptized in Hey Zeus's name, just in case. Maybe we should discuss a plan of action?

[geckosfeet]

1. Talk to your local municpal authorities.

Or you local spiritual leader if that makes you feel any better.

Bottom line is we will all have to pull together instead of fight against each other.

[natrat]

2. rent the movie"children of men"

it is a depiction of life 20 years from now; suffice it to say it's not good at all

[Deja Q]

3. And 'Soylent Green' too!!!!11!!!!1

[natrat]

80. nah, soylent green was more cheesy scfi

[Bolo Boffin]

7. And while that's based on a collapse of reproduction in the human species

That sets off a collapse of the economy as well. Result, not pretty.

[GinaMaria]

87. seriously, weddings and babies are a huge chunk of the economy. eom

[Mojorabbit]

90. That was a great movie. nt

[Stephanie]

4. Step 1 will be to arrest all those who predict total collapes of the economy followed by martial law

Look out your window right now. If you see a black helicopter, go hide in the basement.

[GiveMeFreedom]

9. I don't have a basement

and a ride in a helicopter would be fun!!!

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Why Syzygy]

10. Alex Jones is an alarmist and probable agent provocateur.

I suggest ignoring his rants.

[waiting for hope]

15. Sorry -

Does this make it better?

http://www.carrollspaper.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=7451&TM=55111.9

http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/wackenhut.php

http://lonestartimes.com/2009/02/11/militarizing-police-depts-with-your-bailout-money/

[GoesTo11]

6. They will have to show more reruns

Boring.

[Vincardog]

8. IT will not be on TV because there will be no electricity. You will not be able

to buy anything in the store because no trucks will be bringing anything to the stores.
The hungry urban people will riot and the cities will burn.
Martial law will be declared but there will not be enough police or military to police the whole country.
There will be no public services:
no public water treatment,
sewers will overflow and garbage will block the streets as the rats run wild.

What to do? Start you garden now. Drill your well and make sure you can operate it with the power you can generate.

[hay rick]

11. And you won't be able to buy toothpaste.

[olegramps]

77. Deodorant won't be available either making it a real stinking situation.

It will be like back in the medieval times when people bathed once a year at most and never brushed their teeth and had to wear the same clothes for years on end without ever washing them. There will be a huge decline in the population since no one could stand to be that close to anyone.

[Mojorabbit]

39. I am prepared for almost all of the above

...kind of. All I need is my hand pump for the deep well. I don't think it will happen but we are in uncharted waters here and one never knows. I am looking to live like my grandparents did as far as self reliance on the basic necessities. I am tired of the rat race.

[Vincardog]

51. Look into a wind mill

[The Wizard]

59. This sounds like Bush's Iraq (NT)

[MADem]

12. We have a ways to go before that happens.

Martial law?? Maybe. Depends. There would have to be violence on a widespread scale that the cops couldn't handle on their own.

How will it work? The National Guard will be called up, they'll probably have to rope in IRRs and retirees because so many people are overseas. There will be a curfew.

Obama will be in charge. He may put some jerky general running the day-to-day stuff.

You can google "anarchy." Too broad a question to be addressed here.

As for civil unrest and its forms, if you can imagine it, odds are some other bozo with an attitude can, too.

Public services won't cease--they'll do garbage pickup during curfew, you see. Reservoirs will be off limits, and anyone going near them will be shot.

Best action? Hunker down, don't go out during curfew, have a little spare larder of food, water, and so on in case you get stuck.

I've lived in martial law conditions. It's unpleasant, but you adapt. I am not anticipating that happening on a widespread scale here in the US, though.

[stillcool]

47. I don't think Obama will be in charge...

I'd say a military coup would take place, and the Pentagon would assume their rightful throne as the seat of government.

[MADem]

54. Nope. No. Nah. Nyet. Nein.

You've been watching too many bad movies and you don't appreciate the checks and balances in place. "Rightful throne?" :rofl: Hardly!

We have several layers of CIVILIAN CONTROL over the military for a reason. Not only is our Commander in Chief a civilian, our Secretary of Defense is as well, as are all our Service Secretaries.

Those generals and admirals don't have the money to stage a coup. It gets doled out in quarterly increments, and every year they have to go up the Hill, hat in hand and beg the HASC and SASC every year for their little plus-up.

[stillcool]

60. it could never happen here, right?

too funny.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/

[MADem]

85. Well, it hasn't. And we've had harder times when it should have, it if was gonna.

Everyone thinks that 'their era' is the most dire, and doom and gloom are inevitable. But if it were about to happen, you wouldn't be able to access websites that predict doom and gloom, or hear any opposing points of view.

When it happens, conspiracy champions can tell me "Toldja so!" I won't hold my breath.

I think the Founders knew what they were doing.

[natrat]

81. please,our government does not work like it used to-the shadow gov does what it wants

[MADem]

83. Hahahahahaha!!

There's a 911 forum on this board...you might want to jump in there!

[OmahaBlueDog]

13. The best, most recent example would be Argentina earlier this decade

[Rosa Luxemburg]

14. ask Iceland

[femmocrat]

16. I think there will be a run on wheelbarrows.

To cart around our worthless money in.

[Mari333]

17. que sera sera

[GiveMeFreedom]

65. Ah !!! nice to laugh at myself!!

It's funny, thanks. :rofl:

[TomClash]

18. Socialism or fascism

Fascism is more likely - we were virtually there before Barack.

[tekisui]

19. Does fascism lose some strength when markets collapse?

Or is that when the government is there to protect them?

[ret5hd]

46. well, the nazi party followed the weimar meltdown.

does that answer your question?

[TomClash]

74. The gov't is always there to protect markets

Fascism gains when markets collapse. The 1930s are a prime example I think.

You pose good questions.

[No.23]

21. I'll take neither, thank you.

Historically, both have almost always involved a centralized, despotic, authoritarian government.

Granted that most people have become conditioned to accept Big Brother/Sister running their lives.

But that may be part of the root cause of what ills us.

Whether Big Brother/Sister wears a socialist hat or a fascist one.

[leftstreet]

25. Where has socialism created a 'centralized, despotic, authoritarian government?'

:shrug:

[No.23]

27. Russia. China.

Just to name the two largest examples.

Marx was a big fan and supporter of statist socialism.

Bakunin, amongst others, was not.

Russia chose Marx, and the rest is history.

Don't think that Russian and Chinese socialism were coercively authoritarian?

[leftstreet]

32. Is this satire? n/t

[No.23]

33. Baah!

More sad than satire, me thinks.

A willing sheepie in a capitalist society with an authoritarian government is directly related to a willing sheepie in a socialist society with an authoritarian government.

Their baaahs may intone differently.

But a co-dependence on Big Brother/Sister is still a co-dependence.

[cliffordu]

52. "Sheeple" -

Right out of the 'frugal squirrel' right wing survivalist neonazi fuckwit website.

[No.23]

55. Actually, they graze on both sides of the axis.

Sheep can be found on both sides of the aisle.

They're not particularly partial to grazing to the left or to the right of the fence.

Just as long as there is a matriarchal or patriarchal shepherd to look after them, they'll graze leaning leftward or leaning rightward.

Sheep that need a shepherd are sheep that need a shepherd.

Whether they lean rightward, when they graze, or leftward.

Yes, it's true that the harking of "hope and change" worked well to keep the left-leaning sheep in line.

But the right-leaning sheep have their own harkings as well.

After all, sheep that need a shepherd are still sheep that need a shepherd.

[readmoreoften]

63. How can someone who champions "the withering away of the state" be a "statist"?

Marx pointed out that the State exists to serve capital. You're confusing the state with the dictatorship of the proletariat, which exists to make sure that the rich don't reassert their power--as they did after the success of the Paris Commune, killing tens of thousands of working class men, women, and children.

I don't know if you noticed this... but (1) China is no longer a Communist society, (2) China has NEVER had a non-authoritarian government. Mao was the closest to non-authoritarian it ever got: Chiang Kai Shek was a fascist (literally) that blew the heads off of communists in the street. Before Shek there was an emperor. (2) Before Stalin--and no one likes Stalin, not even communists--the Soviets were not Statist. Soviet means "workers council". It was the union of "workers councils" and was internally Democratic.

Anarchism leads to little more than agent provocateur infiltration at best, that's why it has never existed anywhere at anytime except in tiny, elitist "collectives".

[No.23]

66. Playgrounds for the real game of classism.

Actually, I'm not. Confusing what you think I'm confusing, that is.

When I say statist socialism, I am, indeed, talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat. A coercive, authoritarian entity that only creates a new class structure to replace the old one.

Coercive authoritarianism exists both in capitalist and socialist experiments. And classism, consequently, is equally reinforced in both playgrounds.

As for China no longer being a Communist society, they only shed one guise of coercive authoritarianism for another one.

That's all cosmetic hocus-pocus.

We're entering into a heightened phase of coercive authoritarianism, right this very moment, in our own so-called capitalist country. Under the banner of "hope and change".

Capitalism and socialism are just two playgrounds for classism of their won kind.

As for your comment re. anarchism (I'm actually a mutualist, if you want to be picky), that's gonna have to be another sidebar for another day.

Nite.

[TomClash]

75. "Marx was a big fan and supporter of statist socialism"

Actually, the Communist Manifesto proposes an eventual withering away of the state.

If you read the Eighteenth Brumaire you can see what an enemy of statism he was.

[TomClash]

76. It depends on the type of socialism nt

[opihimoimoi]

20. Total collapse means money not good...no one works...food not delivered

anarchy...Mormons get killed for their stored food and water...

Zoo animals get slaughtered for its meat

Dogs and cats get eaten

trash don't get picked up...

taxes don't get paid

murders happen all the time...

cannibilism gets popular...

men will hunt men for food

Weapons will be the Law

Humanity will regress

tech info will be lost

GPS will soon not work

cell phones computers tv all will die

warfare/conflict

Human population will reduce to 1 or 2 million...or less

eventually....we will join the list of extinction....no redeeming factors....

[No.23]

23. No redeeming factors indeed, but only if...

the world is here for our pleasure.

If it is not, however, than there may be a redeeming factor...

for earth.

[Deja Q]

24. Which is why everyone's trying to prevent the collapse...

At least ostensibly, but whatever.

Oh, some would surmise "Humanity will regress" has been regressing for some time. :evilfrown:

[KakistocracyHater]

67. you're silly: 1 million or 2

though I generally agree, estimated Human population in 1800 was 1 billion. Ancient city of Rome was/estimated 1 million. I would hope Mayors & Governors would step in before public utilities collapse, it is possible to keep everything running with zero money being moved around. You aptly stated the alternative weapons=law, which truthfully=lawlessness. It is possible to substitute for money, you just need to get all the merchants/stores to agree on how many (clothespins, paperclips, whathavu)=what amount. This is beneficial to everyone: produce does not rot on store shelves, people can buy medicines & food, the lights stay on. The problem is with those outside the country/state, if they don't agree & your food/medicine come from outside.....

[opihimoimoi]

70. In a mega famine....food is money.....if it ain't food, or a means to food. its use is moot

In a 4 horsemen thing....pestilence, war, famine, flood....huge amounts of peeps will not make it...we are watching this from on high ground...that is sinking.....we must seek higher levels....to avoid reduction in Long Term Survival(Homo Sapien) Odds.

We would be lucky to survive and yet would take hundreds of years to reach the Tech Level we enjoy Presently...Recovery will be a major major effort....

[KakistocracyHater]

71. what 'mega-famine'?

I was talking about 'collapse', your 4 horsemen thing doesn't matter to me, I'm Post-Christian. If you really want to know MOST ANIMALS in the wild are borderline malnourished MOST OF THEIR LIVES.

In Ancient Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, & America they had coins & other objects they used as we use money today. I strongly emphasize modern Cuba for study & to consider putting in stop-gap measures, brakes on us if we start to slide quickly. I KNOW we can stop this, we can easily adapt to 1940s level civilization, it would be superior to the 19th century levels.

I would prefer those house built over farmland to be pulled up, cleaned up, then used as farmland again-no Chinese poisons, cost of shipping reduced. I'd move the people into the empty office buildings. I would rather have electricity & internet access-if I have to read it by candlelight I would. I don't ever want to be forced to choose between a toilet or a washing machine. Garbage collectors are highly valuable, the models now in use in San Francisco: composting food scraps & therefore making rich soil is macro-doable, just waiting on a leader.

Biodiesel generators attached to every restaraunt would be great, blackouts would not stop their business. The same for supermarkets. I see the 'green movement' more as a way to be self-sufficient, the gov. needs to reduce the front end of green products, the price at the cash-register & quit subsidizing oil & paper.

[opihimoimoi]

72. mega famines occur when consumption exceeds source.....

too many people .....not enough food.....

over large populations...this horrible.....whole regions will suffer with mega fatalities.....

[Xipe Totec]

22. CEOs have to jet pool to work

No more private jets; only semi-private.

It's humiliating...

[Kip Humphrey]

26. Largest threat remains food shortages as the food delivery system begins to collapse. Spring

is coming. Find a place to plant a garden and do it. Stock up on canned goods before the collapse. Gather together as much cash as you can and put it in a safe deposit box or buy a heavy safe. Once the collapse happens, practice inconspicuous consumption. Don't fill up the gas tank or grocery cart. Don't leave lights on. Don't wash your car. Don't wear flashy clothes or jewelry. Practice modest appearance and behavior.

Government will keep the utilities going: sewer, water, electric, gas, telephone; and hosiptals will remain open. Grocery stores will get priority but expect shortages. It will be much like a natural disaster but with increased crime and some looting.

The collapse will occur in slow motion at first, much as we are seeing it today. Then, a series of sudden collapses will occur as massive layoffs (500,000 climbing to 1,000,000 per week) hit a succession of economic sectors, followed by accelerated collapse and disintegration. At its peak you might expect 60-70% of the country unemployed. The government will continue to intercede put will be forced to retreat so as to protect and maintain vital sectors and services. The worst time will be winter with mass migrations to the south. If you find yourself one of the wintertime migrants, do so early (by Sept. 15th.). The key to survival is plan way ahead of the masses and, above all, be inconspicuous!

[KillCapitalism]

68. It's funny that you mentioned migration.

If this happens, Mexico is going to be overwhelmed by US citizens moving southward. Really anything north of south Texas & southern Florida is completely uninhabitable during winter. I wonder how Mexico & most of central America will cope with all the refugees.

[olegramps]

78. There will be massive migration to the South since people won't have any clothes.

Also think what a boon it will be to home schooling. But it won't be about that crap in books. It will be survival training. Like how to trap and roast rats.

[Kip Humphrey]

89. Survivorman, Man vs. Nature... the education of the masses has already begun.

cockroach pie, anyone?

[HughBeaumont]

28. This, for starters!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5091538

YEAH! SCHADENFREUDE RULES!!

[stuntcat]

29. what scares me is the water

I realize it wouldn't take much to stop the clean water from flowing. That's my biggest fear of all.

[Mojorabbit]

45. I have one of these

You could prestrain lake water thru several layers of tshirt, add a small amt of bleach, and then use this.
http://www.h2ofilters.com/britberbiggr.html
Can find cheaper on ebay

If it is too expensive you could make your own and just buy the ceramic filters.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/kids/homemadeberkeydaire.htm

We have had water problems here after hurricanes and if it happens again I decided I was going to be major prepared. I keep bleach for water purification at hand too.

[stuntcat]

88. ty! I need to remember this stuff

I ought to start learning how to do this, thanks!

[BlooInBloo]

30. Spare us your melodrama.

[cliffordu]

43. Yeah, What Bloo said.

[canoeist52]

31. total social collapse lke in the movie "Testament" 1983

But without (hopefully) the radiation poisoning. I just watched this movie again after 23 years and it still has the power to shake me now. Maybe even more so since, with a family, I have so much more to lose.

Watch on Youtube when you have time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1NU1rqORXE&feature=PlayList&p=9B85AC8EF9C24458&index=33

[cliffordu]

44. The best post-Apocalypse movie yet...

[originalpckelly]

34. Ask the Soviet Union.

[Lint Head]

35. Take every penny the Bush Crime Family has and pay back

America!
:dem:

[IndianaGreen]

36. Revolution!

The rightwing is better organized, and better armed, and fascists will have the upper hand. They will scapegoat one or more classes of individuals, and then try to take all power to themselves to establish their Kingdom of GAWD on Earth.

The Left is disorganized, fragmented, and has a pathological and irrational fear of weapons even for self-defence. The Left has no chance against the fascists.

So let's get organized. Let's set aside our ideological differences. Let's arm ourselves!

[thunder rising]

41. rightwing, better organized, and better armed? Don't count on it. And, I'll take intelligence

and diligence over rage and blaze anytime.

[woodwrite]

37. Definition: "Total collapse of the economy."

And bear in mind, I'm none too certain of this,... the theoretical models of twenty years ago may not be as illustrative as they were at the time, but that is because the nigglesome issue of "legality" has been largely discarded. Which is another way of saying that Uncle Sam has painted himself into a corner and, thanks to the global economy, the only way out may be to shoot your way out a la Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. That's what the neocons wanted ever since the implosion of the Soviet Union.

The American economy will be in a state of collapse when (1) its currency becomes seriously devalued (purchasing power reduced by 50% or more), (2) when its de facto unemployment rate hits Great Depression-era levels of 25% or more, (3) when its balance of international trade is a serious drain on the overall national account balance sheet,... and (4) when its aggregate debt is unsustainable, unpayable. No's (3) and (4) are already a reality. The unemployment rate (#2), regardless of anything you hear outside of closed boardroom doors, is fairly quickly approaching the 15% level or higher,... and the worth of our currency (1) is now hostage to what the Chinese decide to do with the trillions of dollars of our debt they uncomfortably hold,... along with the Saudis and the Japanese. Currency devaluation is not far from this present day. Under accepted business law and practice, creditors would be within their rights to take possession of the defaulting debtors' property. But it may not happen that way. We might say, "Oh yeah? Well, come and take it." (We still have a fearsome military, eh?) At that point, America will be the rogue state of the planet, and its days will be numbered. Again, this is what the neocons wanted. Same shit, different Reich. Only now it's a fight for dwindling resources.

What to expect? What's going to happen? Well, let's see.....

Anarchy and civil unrest basically boil down to crime, and that will be on the upswing, have no fear. Cities will be the worst (more on this later) and the "crimes" may not necessarily be those of a wantonly violent nature,... just to get some gasoline or some groceries,... no harm intended,.. thank you for your cooperation. But it's still larceny, right? And everyone with cash in their pockets on the street after sundown will be potentially at risk. And when the value of cash becomes less appealing (Weimar Republic), your property becomes the lure of the new crime MO.

Yeah, breakdowns in public services will occur.

Martial law is trickier. Depends on who's really driving this infernal bus. Keeping "order," of course, will be paramount, but there may be more waiting in the wings. (Depends on who's really driving the bus) Again, cities will be the worst possible places to be. I live in a rural area,.. on the Chesapeake Bay,.. I have a garden, a greenhouse and a shop,.. I can fish and hunt,.. just shot a goose the other day .. I know I'm not going to starve,.. and I can make nearly anything this side of penicillin. So I'm not too bad off. If the worst comes to the sci-fi worst, then cities (the larger ones) could attain an equally sci-fi stature. So get out of there. You've got a computer; do some searches containing the words "survivalist" "self sufficiency" "homesteading" .... and so on... There's lots of info out there,..... some good,.. some not so good,... some sincere and some aimed at making a buck. You have to be the judge. A reliable vehicle will be a big help, in fact, pretend that you're launching off with the Lewis and Clark expeditionwhat would you want to have on hand? ...... but that's if the economy does collapse. And you may be absolutely certain that if the economy DOES collapse, then it will actually have collapsed six months earlier, and the rich people will have grabbed all they can grab and headed off for undisclosed locations in New Zealand, Australia, etc. We the People are not driving this bus.

[olegramps]

79. Sounds like you might be the best one to rob.

[JVS]

38. We feast upon the gooey innards of our neighbors!

[RJ Connors]

40. No one knows exactly what happens, that is the nature of Chaos

But you can still be pretty certain at the same time, that it ain't good.

[TahitiNut]

42. The dandelions will disappear from all lawns in the neighborhood

.... as they're harvested for salad.

[BlooInBloo]

49. With Mama Lil's Peppers, even that would be good!

I just got a jar of em at the bar last night from the dude who makes them - they fucking ROCK!

http://www.mamalils.com/products.html

[1]

48. some dude, bigger than you, with a gun, will come to your house and take all of your shit...

and you have to let him. it won't be pretty...

[RagAss]

57. Size of a dude ain't important...size of the caliber you have is.

[1]

58. heh. that's my philosophy, i just thought the general consensus here was...

guns are yucky and wrong.

good luck with that in the collapse...

[my2sense]

50. Looks as if we'll know soon enough

I'm scared shitless and many around me seem to be in denial.

[BlooInBloo]

53. Count me as one who denies that Mad Max was a documentary.

[RagAss]

56. The Pugs can eat their Bush/Cheney bumper stickers !

[defendandprotect]

61. Native Americans buy back Manhattan Island for $2.40 . . .

You didn't believe the $24.00, did you?

Humanity existed LONG, LONG before capitalism ---

unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime ---

RE-REGULATE and dispense the seashells and we start over ---

Except, keep your eye on Global Warming --- !!!


The elite seem to have contingency plans if the public appears to be any threat

to them!! Been working on that a LONG time, as well.

You're saying you're a hypocrite agnostic?


The right wing are violent -- they keep attacking with greater and greater violence

and stealing until they finally make it. Look at the Hitler model. Look at 9/11.

We seem to have little interest in curtailing or controlling violence.

Violence beats intelligence.

[bird gerhl]

69. "unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime"

Really? It looks pretty fucking disorganized to me.

[defendandprotect]

91. OK -- capitalism is also disorganized crime . . ..

[area51]

62. Kind of like Zimbabwe, I'd guess. (n/t)

[Renwiick]

64. Re-invention is what will happen

[tom_paine]

73. Savage and Hannity enflame the 30,000,000 Knoxville Shooter Clones

Bushie-KKK in the FBI and Local Law Enforcement, swollen with power from now years of their Afrikaener- and Nazi- style "takeover from within" now begin showing just how tightly they melt the law as easily as their Bushiganda melted reality all these last 30 years.

In terms of them "melting the law" we can see that is already well underway, but in the upcoming Greater Depression, it will be worse.

Will it get as violent as the Bushies' Nazi Predecessors? Dooubtful. America fought the Nazis, so too close associations would be bad marketing and rebranding strategy, and the Bushies are VERY GOOD MARKETERS.

OTOH, as time goes by and the last of us who remember freedom and Old America grow old or pass away, the less the need for the Bushies to engage in marketing tomfoolery to an "already broken in" Subject populace.

[wuvuj]

82. We now have soft fascism....

...many undercover types and the snitch abound. Intelligence gathered on everyone. Many "citizens" are part of the problem...and act as informants. A move to "hard fascism" could happen overnight....since everything is already in place. The so-called Patriot Act was pre-written.

[TWiley]

84. The rich get profoundly richer, and the poor get profoundly poorer

Now .... which political party would want that?

oops .. you discovered the republican plan

[GinaMaria]

86. Watch Jerico

They took the series off the air, but if you can find DVDs, they are worth a watch. It's post apocalyptic America. Major areas of the country are destroyed by 'terrorists' (the truth is revealed later). There is a Blackwater like organization running things. Wars between different surviving groups. and everyone is redefining 'society'. It contains a few potential scenarios.