Let's be brave and have an honest discussion about race in the US.

[Skip Intro]

This OP is just to get the discussion going. Similar to a flame post, except that I'm not trying to foster a flame war here, My motivation for this thread is two-fold: one, to see if we indeed are lacking the courage to state our opinions and have a frank discussion of the issue, and two, to see where such a discussion might lead us. I know this progressive board is not so representative of joe-sixpack households. Yet, I think there might me much to discuss, bravely and honestly, here as well.

I'd ask that the term racist be used with caution.

I'll just say, as far as my experience, that I have come to know that many white people have, to some degree, a distrust of black people. And I believe that many black people have, to some degree, a distrust of white people. I think this feeling runs deep, generations deep. And that it goes mostly unspoken. And I think this must be the elephant in the living room of our nation that Holder was trying to draw attention to.

I'll say this, in the interest of being honest. I have encountered threads here and there where people were denigrated for being white - as in "white repuke racists." Repuke and racist might be applicable, but to use being white as some sort of original sin is offensive to me. Judges people not by their merit but by the color of their skin.

At any rate, here's this thread, if DU wants to have this honest, non-cowardly conversation among ourselves. Let it rise or fall as it will...



edited to remove political commentary...

[BlooInBloo]

1. hahahaah! LOVE your "fair and balanced" jackass fuckwit approach.

"many white people have, to some degree, a distrust of black people. And I believe that many black people have, to some degree, a distrust of white people."


There ya go! So it's really THE SAME on both sides? Wutareya gonna do? :shrug:


BWAHAHAHAAHA!!!


EDIT: Your "people were denigrated for being white" is priceless, too. Poor, poor downtrodden white folks! When will the persecution stop??? WON'T SOMEBODY THINK ABOUT THE WHITE CHILDREN???? :rofl:

[Skip Intro]

4. God, Bloo, you always bring so much to a discussion. Fuck me for trying, ok?

You got some standard I failed to meet?

Send me a fucking smiley, ok?

[BlooInBloo]

8. F for self-proclaimed effort.

[Skip Intro]

11. Oh dear. Now I've failed Bloo's test. Whatever will I do???

I'm in such a panic.

Have a enema, Bloo.

[BlooInBloo]

13. (shrug) You'll continue on with your bullshit "revese racism", I assume.

[Skip Intro]

16. Well who the hell are you attach that bs label to me, number one? Number two -

I'll continue to speak my mind, when and where I feel like it, with no motivation to prove shit to you - in fact, it makes me smile to know I've annoyed you.

:D

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

17. lol! Whatever gets you through the day, tiger.

[Skittles]

140. hey Skip

you want I should kick your ass? IGNORE, BABY!!!!

[treestar]

116. This is exactly why you need to be brave if white

Let's face it, there are some that would have us have no right to any expression or opinion on the subject. Kind of like those women saying men should have no opinion on abortion.

We should just shut up and feel guilty and that's it.

Problem is, it works to a point with us liberals, but what will be done to face up to the centrist whites? Let alone the freeper types and the "Christians." The divide and conquer thing is working. I have blue collar white male relatives who are only going to resent this - they do, and that helps seal the division and the white men on top win again.

[BlooInBloo]

130. WTF are you talking about? I'm white.

[sniffa]

193. It's not that you have no right to expression or opinion

It's that your right to expression or opinion will be viewed through the lens of your own experience.

That being said, how others view your own experience should be taken into account when interpreting how one see's their views.

[Le Taz Hot]

117. Wow!

And they say *I'm* harsh!

[BlooInBloo]

131. I don't have a lot of sympathy for white folks who whine about "reverse racism"...

and whine about how they're only allowed to feel guilty and can't talk about these things.

[bobthedrummer]

2. There is a rainbow coalition of racists eom.

[Baikonour]

3. Good luck, OP.

*opens shit-storm umbrella*

[Skip Intro]

6. I already see how it's going to go. Prove's Holder's point entirely. nt

[AndrewP]

194. Good luck with this one. Nice try though.

Honestly. Nice try. It just one of those issues that if you say anything you will be attacked from some direction.

[Karenina]

212. If you haven't abandoned ship, Skip Intro

Tante K. would like to ask you your opinions on a few questions.

Let's be brave and have an honest discussion about race in the US. I no longer live there.

How has being in a majority black environment affected your perception of race?

Do you fear the anger of people of colour and if so, why?

How do you feel about how this thread has gone, now that it tops 200 replies?

Du bist Gästgeber, SI, halt die Ohren steif! :pals: Kölle Alaaf!!! :toast::party::toast:

The last of the stragglers from today's parade just passed under my window. Trombone, tuba, snare and bass. The straw man will be burned on the corner at midnight, the Catholics will get their ash marks first thing on the morrow and Karneval will be over.

[glowing]

5. There are these pre-conceived notions of "stereo-types" that we are born into.

We didn't create them, but we often live up to expectations...

[Captain Hilts]

7. It happens all the time in the world of sport. PTI, Outside the Lines, etc.

Real discussions about race and culture.

[BlooInBloo]

10. David Zirin is the go-to guy for this tangent.

[fishwax]

47. zirin's great -- i had the chance to meet him a few months ago

when he gave a talk on my campus. He's passionate, thoughtful, and often insightful. I've read a good chunk of his "people's history of sport," and while he didn't tell me much I didn't already know, I'm glad someone is talking about that angle of sports.

[BlooInBloo]

56. Yup. It's so cool when someone finds a niche and tolly runs with it.

[cottonseed]

178. I agree. The race discussions in sports is mature.

I just don't know if it can be done in politics. It's just too juicy of a wedge.

[Double T]

9. Not again!!!!!

Please give it a rest......I beg YOU!!!!

[Lint Head]

12. it's not the discussion of race that was the center of the 'cowards' comment.

It is the implementation of integrating people of color with white people. In the work place people still congregate together based on their race. Churches are the same. Real estate is the same. The Senate is the same. The Mason's are the same. You can go on and on. In the metropolitan city I live there is still a mostly black side of town. There is still a mostly white side of town.
Guess where the city has placed the sewerage treatment plant and present and future land fills. On the black side of town.
It is really disgusting how we treat each other

It is going to take some heroic acts to change all of those things in society and those acts must come from us not politicians.
Heroic acts are the opposite of cowardly acts.

:dem:

[M0rpheus]

37. Well said

:thumbsup:

[MellowDem]

71. I agree completely...

Politicians cater to the status quo, it's what gets them elected. We have to change the status quo. We have to change how we think about race and about ourselves. Race is an old idea that has adapted in meaning to survive and set deep roots in our society. We need to not only cut down the tree, but uproot the stump. We need to stop self-identifying with race as individuals or mixing race with culture.

[Karenina]

123. Have you ever lived in another culture?

[MellowDem]

124. I always find that phrase interesting...

how it's used that is. How can one live "in" a culture. A culture is not a house. I think it shows how we understand culture (and race, to an extent).

But I have lived with people of other cultures, worked with people of other cultures, etc. etc. And I have lived in places where my culture was not the dominant one (I assume that's what you meant).

[Karenina]

128. Has your experience included the need of fluency

in another language?

[MellowDem]

129. Actually, yes

I have worked in an environment where I was the only worker, besides the supervisor, who knew English and everyone else spoke Spanish. A sometimes frustrating but also rewarding experience. And when I studied in Europe for a semester. It definitely helps you understand what a new immigrant to the States must feel like if they don't know the language.

[JeffR]

14. I mean this in all seriousness:

I find racism disgusting, but having said that, I have a vague, general but undeniable mistrust of white people. And I'm white myself.

[BlooInBloo]

15. (snarfle)

[JeffR]

20. No joke.

I took a chance on writing some music for a young film director recently, and I can't tell you how much my confidence soared when I found out he isn't white. He also isn't straight, and although I am, I was immensely reassured by the fact that he isn't. The film, BTW, is brilliant, and my contributions to the soundtrack, despite me being a straight white guy, were pretty damned good.

This all reflects poorly on me, I suppose, but it's just how I think.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Teh true is not the enemy of teh funny.

[JeffR]

22. Fair enough.

I think.

[jmg257]

41. I have to ask...why were you "reassured when you found out he isn't straight"? nt

[JeffR]

48. Tough question to answer.

I think what it might boil down to is that not one of my gay friends or non-white friends has ever let me down in any way, ever.

Mind you, the same could be said of most of my straight friends and white friends, so ultimately I really don't know how to answer that question. I think my POV is irrational, really, in fact I'm sure of it, but there it is.

[jmg257]

49. OK - thanks for sharing! :) Cheers! nt

[MellowDem]

26. Many people find racism disgusting...

yet still hold prejudices based on experience and logic, not racist ideology. You are holding a prejudice, but you are not a racist. Many black people distrust other black people because of their experiences, but they are not racists. Actually, I would venture to say that all of us do what you do to some extent or other.

[BlooInBloo]

27. "I'm scared of white people because I had a bad experience with a white person once"...

The day I hear that....

[MellowDem]

32. Happens all the time...

except it's usually a lot more than one experience. Or it could be that they aren't "scared" of white people, but they think white people automatically are heartless, or only care about money, or etc. etc. infinite. A lot of it is what people see in the mainstream media. People are told whites are bad dancers on comedy shows/movies, so they are surprised when they see a white person dance well. Or people always see blacks getting busted on Cops and figure they're more likely to be criminals. It's stereotyping, it's perfectly natural and logical, yet it still is hurtful in our society. But it's not based on the ideology of racism the vast majority of times, but often, to the detriment of discussion, is called racism.

[JeffR]

33. I appreciate your comment.

Glib as it might have sounded, my original response above was dead serious. I've questioned myself as to why I think this way and never really come up with an answer. It was hard to even admit this publicly. Thanks for making me feel a little less ridiculous about it, since I do realize that my biases don't make much sense, even in light of experience and logic. Nevertheless, I have a hard time shaking them.

[XemaSab]

18. It has been my experience on this site

that any discussion of cultural differences between people is considered flamebait, and I think that's sad.

I think it's symptomatic of race in this country in general. Either you're 100% PC and afraid to say anything or you're a bigot, with no middle ground.

Part of it is the "in-group/out-group" dichotomy. If a white professor did a paper on why white people are bad dancers, it might be considered a serious study, but if a black person asked why white people dance like fools, it might be considered bigoted. If a black sociologist did a study on why black people play basketball, it would be taken seriously, but if I as a white person asked why do black people play basketball, everyone will assume that I have some sort of bigoted motivation. But isn't it in some ways more important for each group to understand the other group than for each group to study itself? :shrug:

[annabanana]

25. I think it's very hard to do this on a message board.. Even one

like this where the regular posters share a series of conventions and expectations.

These discussions require ALL of our tools of communication, including tone of voice and facial expression. The subject is too fraught to be conveyed in print except by the most expert wordsmiths.. and even then there is hurtful misinterpretation.

We must try to do this in our flesh and blood lives.

[Karenina]

110. What I find interesting

is many regular "dominant culture" posters who would instruct us all on what "it" is were born, bred, raised and continue to live in homogeneous bubbles.

[stillcool]

19. In the interest of being honest...

birds of a feather flock together. The problem is that it is normal. I think people lie to themselves when they insist they don't have a prejudiced bone in their body. White privilege is not something that is easy to confront is it? Especially for those who don't recognize how fortunate they are for being born white in this country.

[annabanana]

28. That might be true from an ancient biological reality...

Identification and suspicion of the "other" had a survival purpose when people of different family groups competed for scarce resources.

It's something that needs the prefrontal cortex to be engaged to overcome...

[MellowDem]

44. Stereotyping is normal...

doing it along lines of "race" is not. Humans used to not even recognize race, which means it's quite possible to reach that point again.

As for white privilege, I think it is way too simplified by many on this board. Being white doesn't automatically mean you have privilege, and varies widely from location to location. Class is far more an indicator of privilege than race is in this country. We should really be talking about class privilege, but we never do focus on that. Race privilege is much more muddy, so much so that saying one race has such and such privileges is not true and counterproductive. That is why it is so hard to confront any sort of race privilege.

Also, the way many approach "white privilege" is offensive and confrontational. It's like going up to a black person and saying "You need to recognize how fortunate you are to be born in America and give up the privilege it automatically confers upon you". Obviously, such a broad statement will ring true depending on the individual and their circumstances. For many, they'll think you are making assumptions. And they're right.

[stillcool]

68. I am making assumptions that..

being white in this country affords one more access to success than being born black? Am I making assumptions about racial profiling? Or that being born black in this country and being caught with drugs, or committing a crime, guarantees you a harsher sentence? I don't know what country you've been living in, but in all of the states I have lived in there are clear color lines between white and black neighborhoods, and I can count on one hand the number of black people I have worked with. While that may be changing, it surely hasn't to the degree you seem to think it has. Class warfare does not make it go away.

[MellowDem]

78. I'm not advocating class warfare...

just that people recognize class is the real culprit rather than race. People confuse the cause and effect of race and class. Racial history is what caused blacks to be disproportionally poor in this country in the first place. Now, the question is, what is keeping blacks disproportionally poor from year to year? A lot of people say race, but class is the primary factor. It's the cycle of poverty. If blacks started off disproportionally poor in American society, they will surely remain so as long as nothing is done about poverty. They won't magically disproportionally rise out of poverty. But programs that fight poverty will disproportionally help them. Perhaps there is no greater weapon in today's society to fight current racial inequalities than poverty fighting. You are confusing the main culprit and fighting the wrong fight. We've been doing it for decades. Since the 1960s, some hidden racism has been the main culprit supposedly, but really, it's mostly that our society doesn't care about providing for the poor, black, white, whatever.

[stillcool]

84. Perhaps you would feel differently...

if you were born black?

[MellowDem]

85. Maybe I would...

but if I did, it would be based off of emotion, as it has been for decades. And it still wouldn't be true. And I'd be fighting the wrong fight and the condition of blacks would unsurprisingly not improve.

But you should have added something else. What if I was a middle class black person? Or a white person living in poverty? You left out class.

[Karenina]

120. If you were a person of colour your feelings about the issue

would be based on emotion and untrue? Just trying to understand you correctly.

Who do you think is crucial to holding the class war in place?

[MellowDem]

126. Yes, I would

through my experiences. If I experienced prejudice and racial discrimination, I would automatically blame race for a lot of the ills of my community rather than class. The impact class has on a community is usually a lot more hidden or so "normalized" and accepted as virtuous by society that even when we encounter it, we just shrug and move on. It's very well "understood" in every community that money is the path to happiness.

And I don't think there is a class war in place. I think that there is a very robust altar of "class" that is worshipped by all, regardless of race, religion, culture, you name it. The poor worship it as much (if not more than) the rich. It is a caste system society has agreed upon.

[Karenina]

132. What do you think the upper-class of colour experiences?

[MellowDem]

135. They still encounter bigotry...

depending on their circumstances some more than others. Many also probably experience "racial guilt" for not acting a certain way, and are probably also more likely to be deemed "traitors" by their own race. Usually, it is the poor that define what it means to be a certain "race". A sort of "salt of the earth" kind of a way of thinking. We saw a lot of that in the campaign. If you were white, you would try to identify with the mythical "working man" white. That's what Hillary attempted to do. And Obama was at first called not "black enough" by many. Why? Because he had a Harvard education.

[Karenina]

137. What, in your opinion, holds the class structure in place?

[MellowDem]

145. Everyone...

I mean, there will always be a class structure. Even in Communist societies there were class structures. They can never be totally eliminated. But what we deem to be human rights, such as everyone having free access to health care, can lessen the gaps between classes.

[Karenina]

168. WHO in America consistently votes AGAINST efforts

to relieve poverty?

[Karenina]

169. I ask again...

[sniffa]

196. It shouldn't be offensive

If it is then the problem isn't with the person telling someone about their white privilege.

[MellowDem]

23. Bless you...

Seriously, and don't worry about those that attack you, they're the ones that need to open their minds the most.

As for racism in this country, I think the term "racist" has been redefined, overused, confused, and generally fucked up to the point that very few even know or agree upon what it means. Pretty hard to fight racism when that's the case.

Another thing is that Race as a a way to self-identify with a certain "culture" has been celebrated, encouraged, and lauded as showing one's "pride". We are regularly told by those who lead minority movements that your race is who you are. "Latina is beautiful" banners or "Proud to be black" shirts for example. It comes across to me as some form of crude "racialism" (similar to nationalism, except based on race). These things continue to divide us.

Third, few people have a good understanding about the history of race or even the actual biological disproving of race as a classification of human beings. Most refuse to believe it and continue to secretly believe that races really are different somehow (ie: blacks are better athletes inherently).

[psychmommy]

39. my being an african american isn't a slight to you.

it is an homage to the motherland where we were kings and queens. healers and educators. warriors and hunters. craftspeople and musicians. it is a source of pride for a people that were subjugated and treated as less than human. separated from our families and traditions by the middle passage, forced to take on those of the subjugator. it is a way to connect my child to something more than a past of slavery and subhuman treatment. all peoples should find their connection beyond america, it makes me sad when people say they are just american when they aren't native americans. our differences are what makes america special and our similarities make america strong.

[MellowDem]

52. I see what you are saying...

and understand the reasons many identify with a race, even though we realize race is not real. It's weird, it's like race was first invented to divide and subjugate, and now that it's been around so long, we feel like we must keep it to overcome the negative effects it has caused. Race has set its roots so deep into American society that we can't do without it it seems (I'm hopeful one day we can). To overcome racism, we use pride in our "race". I understand the concept, but I just don't think it works in the long run. I fully agree with you that our differences are to be cherished, I just wish that skin color wasn't seen as any more of a meaningful "difference" than hair or eye color.

I think pride in your heritage can be positive, but it is also used to divide and "other". I acknowledge my ancestors and my history, but I don't let it define me, even if society does. That is the attitude people need to eventually have to rid ourselves or race as a concept. I recognize that I am defined as white by society, but that doesn't mean I have to. In reality, many blacks were told for so long that their ancestors were a sign of being lesser and conferred automatic slavery, it makes sense that it was turned into a point of pride to overcome that history. But pride has its pitfalls as well.

Much like nationalism, being prideful of your race tends to divide rather than unite. Because we were born in America, we want what is best for America (theoretically). This same attitude can happen with pride in race. We must eventually move beyond it.

I am not proud to be "white". I respect some of my ancestors, and others not so much. Most, I really did not know well enough to have any sort of judgement. They have made me who I am, and it is a profoundly cool thing to think how so many countless experiences and lives have essentially led up to me. But while I am able to recognize my history, I feel no need to take pride in it. Indeed, I don't know what I'd be taking pride in. False golden ages, some sort of made up "homeland"? We are all from the same place after all. Their accomplishments are not "white" accomplishments, they are human accomplishments.

I realize this is a very idealistic way of thinking, but I think that it will take such a way of thinking to eventually overcome the concept of race. In some ways, I think advocating pride in your race can actually keep us stalemated and keep the status quo of how race is defined by society.

[fishwax]

55. nice to have that option ;)

"I recognize that I am defined as white by society, but that doesn't mean I have to."

[MellowDem]

62. Everyone has that option...

I currently work in an inner city 95% black school with AmeriCorps. I have to recognize how others see me every day. I realize that many whites do not, being the majority, though that is rapidly changing daily. On the other hand, I have found that many minorities, depending on where they grow up, also don't have to deal with it very much, given the segregated nature of our society. In fact, if I were to define myself as white and white pride were a big part of my drive, I wouldn't ever interact with other "races" by choice. I'd be working in some poor white school to help out my brothers. See what I mean?

And yet, though I'm a minority in my environment as defined by society, I don't identify myself as white. I acknowledge society does and recognize the impact and social consequences of race, yet I don't identify as "white". It's possible, and it's healthy as well ;-)

[fishwax]

65. oh, sure they do -- everyone can just "opt out" of race

:eyes:

[MellowDem]

67. Never said that...

Like I said, I have to recognize my race in society. But personally, I do not. There is a big difference, and it's the change in thinking we need in the long run. Everyone can, and should, personally "opt out" of racial self-identification. You can't control how others judge you, but the sooner you stop self-identifying as your race, the better. It is a socially constructed falsehood that everyone has the power to reject as a way to self-identify.

[fishwax]

70. again -- nice to have that option

you can "opt out" of identifying you as white. It costs you nothing. Everyone still identifies you as white, with all the advantages contained therein.

It is a socially constructed falsehood that everyone has the power to reject as a way to self-identify.
That doesn't change the fact that this particular socially-constructed falsehood has a profound impact on the lives of those whom society identifies as not-white (whether they, personally, opt out of self-identifying or not ...).

[MellowDem]

74. I realize that...

and like you said, race can have a profound impact on the lives of those society identifies as non-white, no matter how they self-identify. And, like you also said, it costs them nothing to stop self-identifying as whatever race is placed on them, because society will still identify them the same. A "black" person would not have to give up anything to stop self-identifying as black in his own mind. In fact, he would be giving up something I suppose. He'd be giving up the deadweight that is race from his psyche. Enough people do that, and you'll start seeing some changes.

According to you, though, race should be becoming more and more important for whites as demographics change and they have less power. Personally, I think that's counterproductive. Race needs to die, and no one has to give up anything to kill it in their own mind.

Perhaps you don't understand me. A black person could go and take advantage of all the opportunities he has at his disposal due to being black (like a scholarship for blacks, a black church community, etc. etc.) while realizing that to him, personally, "black" means nothing. He gives up nothing by doing so.

[fishwax]

76. no, I didn't say anything like that

"And, like you also said, it costs them nothing to stop self-identifying as whatever race is placed on them, because society will still identify them the same."

I said it costs *you* nothing. It doesn't cost white people anything to "opt out" of race, b/c white people retain the advantages of a society built on white privilege regardless.

*****

"And, like you also said, it costs them nothing to stop self-identifying as whatever race is placed on them, because society will still identify them the same."

I certainly didn't say that. Or anything remotely similar to this: "According to you, though, race should be becoming more and more important for whites as demographics change and they have less power."

[MellowDem]

80. You need to explain yourself then...

you are implying that stopping self-identifying as a minority means you are giving up something. What are you giving up? Specifically? You have named nothing.

It was from that assumed implication that I said those things. But if those aren't what you are saying, then your previous posts make no sense and have answered none of my questions or points.

Here, you said:

"That doesn't change the fact that this particular socially-constructed falsehood has a profound impact on the lives of those whom society identifies as not-white (whether they, personally, opt out of self-identifying or not ...)."

Since at the end you said the same thing will happen whether or not they self-identify, you essentially said there are no consequences for how you self-identify in society. Maybe you missed it...

[fishwax]

88. Again, I didn't say any such thing

Since at the end you said the same thing will happen whether or not they self-identify, you essentially said there are no consequences for how you self-identify in society. Maybe you missed it...

lol. There are no consequences for you. *you* can (pretend to) “opt out” of race—you lose nothing, because you are still identified (by your own acknowledgement) as white, with all the incumbent advantages.

Minorities can’t “opt out” of race—they are still identified as *not* white, with all the incumbent disadvantages.

[MellowDem]

91. You still are saying nothing...

You have said the same thing over and over again. I don't know what else to do. You don't get it.

In society, I *cannot*, even as a white man, opt out of my race. I will still be identified as white. Same with minorities. But everyone can personally stop self-identifying as whatever race they are. It won't change how society views them, but it will change how they perceive themselves. You can change your self-perception.

Now, you haven't addressed this, and *still* refuse to. What are the consequences for minorities for changing their self-perception? As you have said, regardless of how they self-identify, they will be treated by society the same, just like me. You have *literally* said this:

"That doesn't change the fact that this particular socially-constructed falsehood has a profound impact on the lives of those whom society identifies as not-white (whether they, personally, opt out of self-identifying or not ...)."

[fishwax]

94. okay, MellowDem, let's try another tack

Imagine two people.

Person A, who is white, can say: "I opt out of being white. Society will still recognize me as white, and so I will still have all the advantages of being white, but I don't see myself that way."

Person B, who is non-white, can say: "I opt out of being non-white. Society will still recognize me as non-white, and so I will still have all the disadvantages of being white, but I don't see myself that way."

You would have us believe that these are essentially the same choice. That is patently false. Person A has the advantage of supposedly renouncing the claims to all society offers white people, even while taking advantage of all that society offers white people. Person B is simply accepting that society will define them as "less than."

Now, moving on:

Now, you haven't addressed this, and *still* refuse to. What are the consequences for minorities for changing their self-perception? As you have said, regardless of how they self-identify, they will be treated by society the same, just like me. You have *literally* said this:

"That doesn't change the fact that this particular socially-constructed falsehood has a profound impact on the lives of those whom society identifies as not-white (whether they, personally, opt out of self-identifying or not ...)."

So what do minorities give up by renouncing race? Well, they give up any say whatsoever in how the dominant (white) culture views them, as well as in how they view themselves. If minorities don't construct their own identity, they will be accepting the identity constructed for them by (white) society. If they refuse to self identify, they are identified by society, and society identifies them negatively--as *not* white.

Moving back to my earlier example, you not only suggest that the statement of Person A and Person B are equivalent, but you've actually suggested that person B has a *responsibility* to admit the second. That's messed up.

[MellowDem]

122. I never said...

that giving up your self-identity is also giving up your advantages or disadvantages. I agree with you that that is impossible to do as society will still view you the same.

As an individual, people do not have a choice to construct their racial identity. I cannot individually change what it means to be "white" as perceived by society. To say that minorities (or anyone) have the power to individually construct their own racial identity is not true as long as they self-identify with race. By doing so, people are bowing to the status quo, to an already pre-set expectation that goes far beyond them as individuals. And these expectations are messed up, whether created by their own "race" or not. And by identifying with your race, you feel pressure to have to conform to these made-up traits, otherwise you're a "traitor". How messed up is that?

Race has become a tyranny unto itself. The original idea of "owning" one's race and having a "race" construct their own racial identities to fight back against the dominant narrative has begun to backfire. It is like fighting fire with gasoline. You're going to get the same result, just in a different way. It was the mistake we first made, using race against race. It just reinforces its power. How is the racial identity constructed by blacks, latinos, whites, etc. of their own races any less of an attack on an individual's identity than when those races were constructed by (and in reality, continue to be constructed by) someone else? How has it started leading us to think it terms of humanity rather than along racial, cultural, national, tribal, etc. lines?

In many ways, by having a race be the author of its own "identity", the pressure to conform has become more powerful than ever. When "the other" is defining you a certain way, it feels great to prove them wrong. You are denying the negative stereotypes placed on you to be true. When "your own" is defining you a certain way, proving them wrong makes you a traitor and "the other". Hence my example that a black kid who studies hard is referred to as "white" by his black classmates.

Either way, even with races constructing their own identities, other races continue to judge each other. And why not? We have essentially told everyone that your race is who you are.

And as for your last sentence, I think that everyone should at the very least examine their race they self-identify with and acknowledge the social pressure it creates and the choices it has them make. I don't think any one group has more of a responsibility to do it than any other.

[fishwax]

173. what's the end, then?

If the act of *not identifying* with your marginalized racial identity won't get rid of any disadvantages, then what's the point? An oppressed minority would sacrifice a great deal by renouncing the advantages of community, and yet doing so wouldn't rid them of any of the disadvantages of navigating the dominant culture. So what's the good that comes from it?

"How is the racial identity constructed by blacks, latinos, whites, etc. of their own races any less of an attack on an individual's identity than when those races were constructed by (and in reality, continue to be constructed by) someone else? How has it started leading us to think it terms of humanity rather than along racial, cultural, national, tribal, etc. lines?"

I'm not quite sure I entirely understand your point, or why the former would be an attack on identity. Also, the three examples you list are clearly not on equal footing, since whiteness is the default position. Still, an immediate answer with respect to minority identities constructed by minorities versus minority identities constructed by the dominant culture would seem to be that one of these is participatory and the other is not. One of these provides an opportunity to use productive and creative talents to fashion and refashion that identity, while the other simply assigns one. One of these is a conversation; the other is a lecture.

With respect to the last sentence in that quote, you've clearly got the cart before the horse. It hasn't started anything. It's participating in that process, I suppose, but that's simply a matter of playing the game the way the dominant culture has set it up. To wish, as you did in an earlier post, for a time when racial differences are no more important than hair color is one thing; but to suggest in turn that people from a community that society devalues who try to cultivate pride in that community are responsible for such disharmony and disunity as exists is wrong. And to suggest that people abandon that project, even while acknowledging that it won't change how society views them, is to suggest that they simply accept the dominant culture's determination of inferiority.

You suggest that if such movements stopped, then problems that revolve around race would be a thing of the past. This is akin to telling a man being beaten by another that if he'll only stop raising his arms to shield the blows the attacks would probably stop. For one thing, it sounds like pretty specious advice. For another, your energies might be better invested in actually getting the attacker to stop.

"And as for your last sentence, I think that everyone should at the very least examine their race they self-identify with and acknowledge the social pressure it creates and the choices it has them make. I don't think any one group has more of a responsibility to do it than any other."

I don't disagree with that sentiment. Frankly, I think that process of self reflection is part of what it means to be "not white" in America. One of the advantages of being white in America is that one can go through a day, a year, a lifetime without ever *having* to think about what it means to be white in society. A person of color can't. I think if more white people thought deeply about what it means to be white, about how whiteness is constructed and how otherness is imposed, about the structural advantages that come with qualifying as white, etc., then that would open up avenues for progress not just for matters of race but for those of class as well. Thinking about those things helps to reveal the complicated ways in which structures of race and class oppression are inextricably linked, thereby making it possible to address issues of class more effectively. Conversely, the oft-repeated mantra of "it's not about race, it's about class" is a way of abdicating that responsibility that you've identified in your last line.

[goclark]

106. I was struck by the use of the word "minority"......

I am glad Eric Holder said what he did -- it is vital that America have a discussion on Race.

Nothing you did or said in the discussion is a question mark for me.

It just dawned on me that even the word "Minority" makes me less than perfect.

I happen to be African American and I once told my father that I was glad that I was a Negro --- the term at the time.

He gently pointed out to me that he was glad that I was glad but since I had never been any other race,I needed to consider the advantages of being a White person. :)

I have been reading this thread and learning a lot.
This is the kind of discussion that needs to take place at DU.

I believe as long as there are ground rules, it would be helpful to all of us.
If we as so called Progressives can't have a civil and enlightening discussion, no group in America can make it happen.

:patriot:

[Karenina]

253. Yes, that framing was a nice touch!

;-)

[blonndee]

83. Heh.

It's really not even funny anymore, is it, though?

[MellowDem]

86. It's not...

it's a sick system we've created where we make everyone believe they have to self-identify by something slave holders created to divide people and exploit them economically. It's even sicker when we make as many excuses as possible to keep the system.

[Karenina]

108. You SO DON'T GET IT, MD!

It's the inability a fish has to describe the water in which it swims. It took 2 posts to conclude that you're white, male, well-meaning and young. However your assumptions that you know the answers grates, as it's obvious the correct questions have eluded you. I read an intellectual position rather than life experience.

I wish you the best in your work and hope your cultural literacy expands in a more positive direction.

[MellowDem]

115. It's my opinion, not an assumption I'm right...

Why should that grate? I do "get it". There is a status quo that I am confronting here that people refuse to acknowledge, one that is entrenched in our society. There is this whole "system" in place that people defend to the death, but never ask why. After decades of the same old same old in how we think about race, I think it's good to offer new ways to think about it.

You are the one who is assuming you are right. You obviously have all the correct questions (and answers) yet refuse to even discuss them. This is exactly why this discussion never works. This is not a discussion, this is me presenting a new perspective and you saying it's wrong. That's not a conversation.

It is an intellectual position, it's idealistic, but so was MLK's speech at the time. So what? That's where you start. It doesn't have to reflect people's life experiences to set goals of what we should be aiming for and where we should be going.

[Karenina]

125. The BEST starting place is acknowledging where we ARE.

Your perspective, based on an obviously limited experience, is in no way "new." All of your posts reveal your opinion that those "others" need to stop racial self-identification while exposing how very deep your own is and how very, very blind you are to it.

[MellowDem]

127. Perhaps your obvious "dearth" of experience

is hindering you here. As well as your suspicions and prejudices. Now suddenly I am commanding "others" what to do, when I have been saying my opinion. Still, it's weird to see you say that I am blind to my own "racial self-identification", like that would be a bad thing. Which I agree, it would be. I don't agree that I am somehow self-identifying myself as white by putting forth my opinion. That would be you labeling me as white for my opinion, and that is the crux of the problem. You are doing what society has taught you to do, and you are doing it well.

[Karenina]

139. Sorry, MD, for my inner curmudgeon!

I sincerely apologize for getting snippy. I printed out your posts to read them the old-fashioned way and tend to my jerking knees. ;-)
Let's continue to talk, shall we? I promise to be good. O8)

I'm an o' lady and been dealing with this ever-reconstituted shite for 6 decades. In elementary school, I was the "integration" just south of the Mason-Dixon line. You speak of self-identification, do indulge a story about Tante K. as a third-grader.

It thoroughly annoyed me that every time the word "negro" came up in class, everyone turned around and stared at me. One day I quipped, "Negro? Where? I don't see one!" The class GASPED and dear Mrs. Miller nearly bust a gut. I knew SHE got it. All that non-verbal feedback and her needing what seemed like an eternity to compose herself.

The thing I'm getting at is this:

78. I'm not advocating class warfare...

just that people recognize class is the real culprit rather than race. People confuse the cause and effect of race and class. Racial history is what caused blacks to be disproportionally poor in this country in the first place. Now, the question is, what is keeping blacks disproportionally poor from year to year? A lot of people say race, but class is the primary factor. It's the cycle of poverty. If blacks started off disproportionally poor in American society, they will surely remain so as long as nothing is done about poverty. They won't magically disproportionally rise out of poverty. But programs that fight poverty will disproportionally help them. Perhaps there is no greater weapon in today's society to fight current racial inequalities than poverty fighting. You are confusing the main culprit and fighting the wrong fight. We've been doing it for decades. Since the 1960s, some hidden racism has been the main culprit supposedly, but really, it's mostly that our society doesn't care about providing for the poor, black, white, whatever.

Who or what or how is this system held so firmly in place?

Have you ever read Tim Wise?

[MellowDem]

151. No need to apologize

It can be hard to gauge politeness or sincerity on the internet. :)

I think I see what you are getting at though. Institutional racism, that is to say the fact that the way our government and society is set up is inherently meant to keep non-whites down. It is the reason we had and continue to have (to an extent) affirmative action and even quotas before they were outlawed. To fight institutional racism, the thought went, we had to institutionalize a racism against whites that would help even things out in the end.

Now, before I go any further, I think institutionalized racism is really institutionalized discrimination. It's not based off of some ideology of race superiority.

But back to the main point. The way our society is set up is inherently discriminatory of poor people. And it just so happens that black people are disproportionally poorer than the rest of the population due to the very recent history of this nation. I think referring to this as some sort of hidden racism is the wrong way to go. Poor whites are facing the same obstacles as poor blacks. The only place where race mainly enters the picture is that poor whites and poor blacks are played off each other with race. As you have probably been noticing, poor whites generally and consistently have been voting against their best economic interests for a couple decades now. Moral issues such as abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, (culture war stuff really) has been a major factor in how they vote. Poverty never comes up.

I think a lot of the reason that is is because many on the left as well as the right have racialized poverty. When people think of poverty, they think of ghettos in the inner-city. And racism. These are the wrong connections to make. They are the legacy of race, but they are mostly not what continues poverty. So, poverty has become a niche issue, a sub-category of race, when it should be a front and center issue. By racializing poverty, the system is held so firmly in place.

Who has racialized poverty? Both the left and the right, for varying reasons. The right has racialized poverty by attacking welfare and framing poverty as an "urban" problem. We all hear from Rush and others their usual diatribe about welfare or food stamps. So now efforts to combat poverty are really seen as handouts to minorities. It is their main strategy to help keep the white vote, especially poorer whites.

The left, unfortunately, often plays right into the hands of conservatives. Affirmative Action was (and continues to be) a huge failure as a way to lift blacks out of poverty and set back race relations, especially regarding poverty, many decades. Many leaders on the left talk about "white privilege", but few would ever venture to a trailer park to tell the whites living there all about the privileges they have. A lot of this is in reaction to the right's oratory, but the left has responded with similar language. Class is the issue. Race has become the distraction.

One thing I always look at is how Asians and Jews, two groups who were historically terribly discriminated against (and to some extent still are) in America not only rose out of poverty, but now on average make more than "whites", the dominant race. How could an inherently racist society, with institutionalized racism, have dropped the ball so hard with those two groups? Is it because class is more important than race in America? That's what I believe. Asians and Jews are both much less likely to self-identify with their race as part of their identity to the extent that African Americans are. Race is the distraction, the sticking point, that is keeping us from getting at the real issues that face communities. If race were not paraded out with poverty, we would take away the right's ammunition for race baiting among poor whites.

Republicans like nothing more than when people on the left say that racism is responsible for poverty and all whites have privilege. They know that their white constituents will be wondering what reason they are living in poverty if that is the case. And the conservatives will swoop in before they get too far along that thought process, and say "look, you live in poverty and don't blame it on your identity, those blacks just want handouts from YOU!" And then the damage is done. It becomes us vs. them, red vs. blue, and everyone forgets whose refereeing the game.

So mainly, I blame conservatives who have used race as a great distraction from poverty, and those on the left who have unwittingly been feeding them ammunition for decades or have simply responded with the same language.

And I have never read Tim Wise.

[Karenina]

152. I highly recommend taking a gander at his perspectives.

Re: my question

"Republicans like nothing more than when people on the left say that racism is responsible for poverty and all whites have privilege. They know that their white constituents will be wondering what reason they are living in poverty if that is the case. And the conservatives will swoop in before they get too far along that thought process, and say "look, you live in poverty and don't blame it on your identity, those blacks just want handouts from YOU!" And then the damage is done. It becomes us vs. them, red vs. blue, and everyone forgets whose refereeing the game."

Again: WHO HOLDS THE DIVIDE AND CONQUER IN PLACE?

[MellowDem]

153. Modern conservatives...

but we on the left have been fighting back the wrong way, to the point that we are in many ways helping to perpetuate the system. Identity politics is just as common on the left as it is on the right now. It has become, "what can you do for my race" on both sides of the aisle.

I did take a gander through wikipedia at Tim White's perspectives. Obviously I would have to read his work to get a fuller perspective. Mainly, it looks like I would disagree with him. What he refers to as "white privilege" is really just "class privilege", but by labeling it "white", he has ensured that the divide and conquer continues. In fact, it looks like his works are directly fueling that divide. I wish I could say that representing all whites, because you are white, and claiming it's all the same wasn't his intention, but that's what it looks like. The thing White and others often refuse to see, is that while they believe institutions have been set up to help out those who are white, it's really that they've been set up to help those who are wealthy. And that often means white.

I would like to see a discussion one day on how Asians have fared so well in this kind of society. Or Jews. Or even Latinos compared to African Americans. The link I see is the lack of some powerful, unified racial identity. But it does always intrigue me how none of the other races are ever or are rarely discussed in the great "black" and "white" debate.

[Karenina]

155. Do you have any questions?

[MellowDem]

156. How do we fight poverty?

That's the real hard question to answer. Universal health care is a start I know, but poverty is hard to defeat.

[Karenina]

170. FIRST, it would help to convince those in poverty

to VOTE for people who will work in their OWN interests, even if those are shared by people who look a bit different.

I ask you yet again...

WHO consistently votes with those in power who vote AGAINST their interests???

[MellowDem]

171. Poor whites...

as it has become a racialized issue. We need to stop presenting poverty in terms of race on the left to counter what they're doing on the right.

[Karenina]

172. Who presents poverty in terms of race?

[kwassa]

199. I really think you don't get it

With all due respect ....

White privilege is not class privilege. The poorest white has privilege that people of color do not. Whites are often not conscious of having these privileges, because their culture dominates this country and everything in it; it is the default it is the norm, to them. If you do not understand this concept, you will not understand racial issues in this country. I suggest you do a Google search on white privilege and do some serious reading.

Race and class have been, and still are to a great extent, inextricably connected in this country, because of our history. Have you noticed your student body is segregated, and that there are not a lot of poor whites living with poor blacks in inner city neighborhoods? Why? It is the legacy of segregated housing codes in this country that didn't allow blacks to live in certain areas. Those barriers have been struck down legally, but the poverty has been institutionalized in these areas, and there is little turnover and change. These neighborhoods are just as segregated as they were during the era of Jim Crow.

The way you dropped Asians, Jews, and Latinos into this conversation tells me that you don't know their histories, either, in comparison to the black/white history in this country. Each has a unique historical experience, I would simply point out that both Asians and Jews had educational and traditions opportunities in their countries of origin that blacks never had here. It is more variable with Latinos, depending on where they came from. Anyone who is a recent immigrant has a completely different history that they brought with them, not the four hundred years of white and black history in the United States. And, I would point out, legal segregation up to 50 years ago, though desegregation was not enforced in many areas for long after that.

and they certainly do have a racial and ethnic identity. I never met an Asian, Jew, or Latino that didn't identify as one. This part of your thesis has no validity at all.

[Karenina]

230. BREAKING NEWS: JINDAL "self-identifies" as "Bobby"

DU calls him out on the PIYUSH that he really is!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Could the timing on this little demonstration be more perfect?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[MellowDem]

237. In response

I do believe that most of what people refer to as white privilege is simply class privilege. As it is, I think "white" privilege is a horrible way to put it, it should be "historical" privilege, because not all whites everywhere have the same privileges to the same degree or even have any privileges due to their race based on their circumstances. Most of the privileges whites have today is based in class, which itself is based in a history of exploitation and slavery. But not all whites benefited the same (or much at all) from this history, and many today who beneffitted the least are being used as tools to keep the status quo of class in place with race, just as the original inventors of race intended. Many on the left are unwittingly continuing their work.

But as I was saying, and as you said about race history in this country (which I already know and am glad you do as well), blacks overall have started off lower than the rest of society economically due to their history. And since this society is so economically stratified, they stay there, mostly because of class rather than race. That's why programs such as affirmative action were such huge failures. They assumed that race was the only real obstacle to the upward mobility of blacks, when the greatest obstacle all along was class.

I find it interesting what you said about Asians, Latinos, and Jews. It fits my point perfectly. I agree their history was different, they came from backgrounds and traditions of education and family, things which help a lot when trying to get out of poverty. And despite incredible racial discrimination against them, were able to overcome to the point that two of those groups now sit at the top of the "class" heirarchy. They were not granted affirmative action in the past and had no course of legal recrimination for discrimination. So, how did they overcome poverty without race based policies? It's because it was class that was the main factor keeping them in poverty, not race, and they were much better equipped with the tools to get out of poverty due to their different histories. That is what we have to do with blacks, equip them with the tools to get out of poverty in this modern America. Which means social policies aimed at destroying poverty. That will help close the gap between races more than anything else. Spending all our time and political capital on "racial" solutions is counterproductive. It feeds racial divide and does nothing to help blacks up the ladder of economic mobility.

Nowadays, poor whites are stuck in the same cycle poor blacks and basically anyone poor in America is stuck in. To group all whites, rich, poor, and otherwise, into one "privilege" group is innaccurate at best and a real bad starting point for a solution. As I said before, how would you like it if someone told you you have privilege because of your skin color, when in fact your own experiences show you do not? It's a side issue, a distraction, and one used to maximum effect by the right. You are keeping them well supplied with ammo. Not to mention, we are alienating what should be a natural ally against the right by telling them they have "privilege". Seriously, go to poverty stricken white communities in the US and tell them about their privilege, I would love to see that. Instead, we should tell them how they are being kept in poverty due to the economic policies of those on the right and should unite with their poor brothers to fight for social programs aimed at eradicating poverty.

Which makes me wonder, if race and white privilege is the primary factor keeping blacks in poverty, why are there any whites in poverty at all? Seriously, as their race is the primary factor of economic mobility, shouldn't all whites be living it up at the top of the class hierarchy?

As for racial identities, I have known plenty of Asians, Latinos, and Jews whose identity wasn't primarily their race. I wasn't saying they don't identify at all, at the very least they recognize what the Census defines them as. But it's not a primary part of their identity. In the long run, nothing good comes from promoting race as identity, for whatever "positive" reason. Race should be viewed as an archaic socially constructed rational that must be taken into account as long as there is racism, not some sort of cultural trait to be embraced and take pride in. I've seen where that leads, and it's not a world I want to live in. Perhaps nothing else is keeping race alive more today than "pride".

[hfojvt]

241. I think you do get it, although this post and thread got long for me

Whites who do not have privileges, like myself, find the notion of white privilege to be both nonsense and somewhat offensive. Especially when it is discussed and the believer in the notion of white privilege attacks the non-believer as either a racist or an ignorant idiot.

But all whites do have privileges the way the White Privilege people define the word 'privilege'. Because white people never get pulled over for DWB - driving while black. They often get pulled over for DWP - driving while poor, or some are too poor to even own cars, but that doesn't matter to the WPB - white privilege believers. They just laugh at the notion that those poor widdle white people can have any problems. After all, Bill Gates is white.

Plus, it's hard for me to see how "Not getting harrassed by the cops" is some kind of 'privilege'.

[Raineyb]

252. How about not being shot by some trigger happy cop for no damn reason?

Because black men certainly can't assume that they're safe from such a fate.

Regards

[psychmommy]

149. if we don't know our history than we are bound to repeat it.

my ancestors had a rough go of it and i don't want it repeated for me or anyone else. when we can learn to respect and honor our differences then we can move past race as an issue. i feel america's problem is that everyone is trying to be this "american' construct which is only a another word for white. everyone doesn't want to be white but i am an american. i don't care to be anyone else's idea of american. honoring my ancestors truly makes me an american because i am native american as well as african american. i have learned about many white people's history in school-very little of my own. i learn something new everyday about my and other cultures and i enjoy it/like pieces to a puzzle. i look around the world and see that we are split by gender,religion and language even within racial groups. i would love to be seen as dana but the first things folks notice is my gender and race (not in order). i have learned that there was a mighty black shogun in japan and i love sushi. that hannibal was a mighty black warrior king and he considered his kingdom to extend into the mediterranean. i went to jamaica and saw dr king painted on the side of a school with marcus garvey and bob marley. what a connection i have to the world by learning about my culture alongside other's cultures. i refuse to ignore my or anyone else's culture it is beautiful and full of surprises and even yummy with different foods. maybe i am a frustrated history buff. i do know that life is too short to limit myself and not learn what i can from others or to keep silent what i have just to fit into a false construct called american. i am proud to be all of what i am-a woman, a mom, a christian,an african american and native american, an employee, a daughter and sister. i have a wonderful life but, that doesn't take away from yours or the pride you may feel being you.

[MellowDem]

154. I think you have the right idea

and it's wonderful you are so interested in your history. A lot of people are pretty apathetic about it, and as a fellow history buff, I think it's crucial to know where we came from, how we got here. I don't think there should be a definition of what it means to be American. There can be no one definition.

[Raineyb]

177. This is the first post you've put up on race that actually makes some sense

now perhaps you might take your own advice. A little study on the history of race relations may prove to be enlightening.

Regards

[BlooInBloo]

43. Your third is good. The rest, crap.

[MellowDem]

53. Thanks for your response.

The first sentence was good. The rest... well you know ;-)

[BlooInBloo]

54. Heh!

[bridgit]

24. I don't think it's possible here at DU n/t

[omega minimo]

147. .

OP "I know this progressive board is not so representative of joe-sixpack households......"

:wow:

[Karenina]

228. This one's on me!

:toast:

[bridgit]

245. BLT ain't no sammich ~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM6-K1MicZU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gXnZKUG_ic&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aM8VU47pKU&feature=related

[M0rpheus]

29. I appreciate the attempt.

However, as Bloo pointed out, you add a disclaimer right in the middle of your post that effectively says "you guys are guilty too!".

With that one comment, I go from hopeful for a decent dialog to being placed on the defensive. As if I now have to apologize for my "side" so the conversation can begin.
This OP would be an example of the tone-deafness I see in almost every conversation on DU about race. I can acknowledge your intention, but the execution left a bit to be desired. I'm not asking for perfection, just some extra thought about what you really mean to say.


Note: "white repuke racists" is redundant. :shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

30. It's hard to have an honest discussion without the "honest" part, eh?

:rofl:

[M0rpheus]

36. This discussion is hard to have, period...

Honesty in this discussion is not really optional, if we really want to get anywhere.

[Karenina]

174. Hi, M0rpheus!

:hi:

[M0rpheus]

209. Hi Karenina!

Long time no see! :hi:

It seems we always meet in these threads!

[bridgit]

31. Maybe it is important after all for us to remove our "side" before the conversation is able to begin

:shrug:

[M0rpheus]

38. I would think that's what the conversation would be for.

You can't just disregard the place you're coming from. What would be the point of the conversation, then?

I'd love to be able to just be on the human "side", since that's where I start with people. But, this discussion starts with at least 2 different sides, seeking to come together.

[bridgit]

57. I would that it were so, still...

The place I come from is routinely disregarded here at DU, for that matter even discounted. And why is that the case; in my opinion? My sense is that we here aren't always holding in our mind's eye the image of these "at least 2 different sides" smiling, stepping toward one another with out stretched hands in search of a warm, knowing, friendly palm...

It's too often a tug of war, under what was alluded to today as: A Big Tent, where one, maybe two, maybe three hand fulls of people chide all comers for simply not "getting it" while dropping incendiary links to stories thought to substantiate one group's persistent racism over and above all others then down and onto one group and one group alone when they really only drive wedges between, or for not being *progressive* enough, honest enough as been keyed upon here

The matter for me as regards racism in America involves more than two sides, more than two colors; which is why I continue to believe that to broach the subject properly, creatively: is to remove our 'sides' from it and yes where applicable; understand our contributions to the grid-lock...but that's just me :)

[M0rpheus]

64. Kumbaya it isn't...

The matter for me as regards racism in America involves more than two sides, more than two colors; which is why I continue to believe that to broach the subject properly, creatively: is to remove our 'sides' from it and yes where applicable; understand our contributions to the grid-lock...but that's just me :)

I would love for that to be so. It would make the conversation so much easier.

What would removing our sides look like?
If it's not conversation, what would be the catalyst beginning that process?

Right now, I don't see any other way than to talk it out.

[bridgit]

87. Nope. Kumbaya it ain't, not just yet. But where 'conversation' harbors the ability...

...to talk socially with others the tired ole tug o'war gig we can leave somewhere else as a practical matter. And what would that look like? Without the 'sides'? Well...

Certainly David Duke can imo STFU! Along with 85%+ of what Pat Buchanan has to say on the subject. But it may also include Prof. Dyson, being a scholar and not not privy to statistics as they pertain; attenuating his remarks for the greater glory, the more perfect union but no...Kumbaya it ain't; Dr. King just had a way with placing matters of universal profundity into states of indisputable balance, another way to visit the removal of 'sides' = from one many; no justice no peace; freedom liberty & justice for all, and some of us still believe it saps that we are

Maybe we'll let D.L. Hughley set the pace. He did a piece couple months back where he was pitting basketball; the uber-hip pastime of our half AA president filled with nuance, style, grace, talent, *and* sport with bowling...bowling!!

:wtf:

Well, D.L. was able to locate some dudes on some courts that past comments with respect to what others do with their balls being their business but I mean do you think he thought he would run into enough AA folk in the bowling alley to form a sample? Cause he did, slight as it was they were there; and while homey people with a penchant for good times spent with friends and a mixed drink or two they were searching for words in many of the same ways others in that alley were searching for them; others it was my impression was the point: missing important teeth ala Billy Bob Teeth, hair brained, beer bellied white, or EA folk if you prefer so again, for me...

One side tugging/pushing against while dumping on another is to my way of thinking unproductive

[KamaAina]

188. NBA star Chris Paul is thinking of pulling a "Michael Jordan" in bowling!

http://www.nba.com/hornets/news/ask_chris_paul_17jan2007.html

8) From Alison Gerard of Metairie, Louisiana:
I was wondering if you were keeping up on your bowling? When you were first drafted by the Hornets, they had an article in the Times-Picayune about how you were an avid bowler. Have you still been bowling? Good luck the rest of the year and I hope you make it to the All-Star game.

Chris Paul: Yes, I do still bowl. I bowl whenever I get a chance, especially in preseason. But a lot of times during the season, you’re traveling so much (that it’s difficult to have time to bowl). But whenever I get a chance. At times there will be guys from other teams who think they can bowl, so we’ll go bowling. Sometimes when my brother starts talking a little too much, we’ll go bowling.

Hornets.com: People may not realize this, but you’re actually a very competitive bowler. You have your own bowling bag, right? Your own ball? A bowling shirt?

Chris Paul: I have two bowling balls. One of them actually looks like the old ABA-style basketball. I have my own bowling shoes, bag, all that. I tell people that one of these days I’m going to get a house, and that’s the first thing I’m going to put in there, is two (bowling) lanes.

Hornets.com: Is the PBA Tour a possibility after you retire from basketball?

Chris Paul: Definitely! It might be a possibility BEFORE I retire.

Hornets.com: Maybe something you do in the summer?

Chris Paul: I’ve been thinking about dropping out of the NBA and just bowling professionally.

Hornets.com: I don’t think it’s as lucrative as basketball, though. But as long as you love to play, that’s all that matters.

Chris Paul: Exactly.

And another stereotype bites the dust...

[bridgit]

217. "another stereotype bites the dust"? Sure, that's part of why I say God Bless America...

If we can't send our stereotypes chewing their way into the dust of history what good are we? The stereotypes others have brought to this 'discussion' don't need to bite the dust so much as they need eat their own dirt so long as they are so prideful of it

[omega minimo]

148. We are each responsible for how we see/assess each other (if) based on prejudgments

Hello M0rpheus my friend. i wanted to chime in here to greet you, since it's rare to see you on the board. :hug:

The above oneliner is my answer to the OP, who has "framed" his discussion based on "trust:"

"I'll just say, as far as my experience, that I have come to know that many white people have, to some degree, a distrust of black people. And I believe that many black people have, to some degree, a distrust of white people."


"Many white people have, to some degree, a distrust of black people" sounds to me like it refers to in general or in public or in first encounters...

So, we are each responsible for how we see/assess each other (if) based on prejudgments.

The OP also simplifies the opener, as if we all have the same experience or associations. A generalized "distrust of black people" and the OP opposite "sides" make it difficult to have the discussion he suggests, based on his assumptions.

It is very gratifying that this thread went as well as it did:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5087482


We all benefit from being around other cultures so that we are not uncomfortable or "distrustful." We benefit from knowing people as individuals and understanding -- including by making mistakes -- that our snap judgments based on appearance can be WAY off.



late edit:
Oh and those opportunities requires some semblance of socioeconomic equilibrium which is the third rail of any "honest" discussion of race.

[M0rpheus]

157. Hi omega!

:hi:

It's been a long time! This is the time of year that seems to inspire a flurry of posts before I go back to lurking again.

I've been paying attention to that other thread for the last few days, with interest. I'm also surprised it's gone as well as it has.


Even though DU may not really be the best place for these discussions, I really appreciate that they're being had. Every honest attempt, no matter how clumsy, should lead to something better.


Did you remember to "Pay it Forward"? :)




I'm a bit scatterbrained at the moment. I have more to say, I just can't seem to wrangle it into complete sentences, at the moment.

[omega minimo]

159. indeed and

i :loveya:-ed you!


"Did you remember to "Pay it Forward"?"

[M0rpheus]

160. Awwww!

I was wondering where those came from! :hug:



on edit: :yourock:

[omega minimo]

163. !

customized for you :hug: payin' it backward :spray:

[M0rpheus]

165. Now you're gettin' all fancy with it, and stuff!

I've been paying attention (I'm lurking every day), and I want you to know...
It was definitely worth it.:applause:

[omega minimo]

166. I never had a choice of red or blue, M0rpheus

:blush: too cool you rock i'm blest

[MellowDem]

35. A question...

You say....

Note: "white repuke racists" is redundant

My question is, how so?

[BlooInBloo]

40. It's multply redundant. Any single one of the three words can be removed...

without significantly altering the meaning.

[M0rpheus]

46. That too!

[M0rpheus]

45. Simple...

"white repuke racists"

Republicans (repuke) = Generally 95% white (off the top of my head - no real statistic)
Racists - well they are what they are...

Republican racist - in my mind that would be a white guy, per the above.

White, Republican Racist - white, white guy, racist.

Redundant.

[MellowDem]

58. So it would be...

white = Republican = racist

I'm what would be defined by the Census as white. I'm not a Republican, of that I'm sure. And I don't believe that the "race" society has labeled me as is inherently better than any other socially constructed "race". I don't even think race is real as a biological concept, so by definition, I'm not racist.


So it seems, at least for my situation that your note is not true. Do you think there is a problem with generalizing and stereotyping in such a way?

[M0rpheus]

89. Not what I said

white != Republican
However, Republicans are overwhelmingly white.

Assuming a Republican is white, sight unseen, is not too much of a stretch. I'd be right 9 times out of 10.
Same for Republican racists.

[Fire1]

34. I think to have a constructive discussion of this magnitude on

a board is first of all, impossible. Secondly, it almost minimizes the complexities of the topic. I don't know what 'venue' would be appropriate, but, I do know, THIS is not it.

[Supersedeas]

195. I'm beginning to reach that conclusion myself

[fishwax]

42. "white repuke racists" doesn't denigrate people for being white, but rather for being racists

:shrug:

[Fountain79]

180. Then why just "repuke racists"

instead of including "white"?

[Common Sense Party]

220. And repukes.

Of course, not all repukes are racists. Not all racists are repukes.

Not all whites are racist. Not all racists are white.

Blindingly obvious, I know, but sometimes these things are forgotten.

[scarletwoman]

50. With a few extremely rare exceptions, it's been my experience that it's simply not possible

to have an "honest" discussion of race with white people. Not even on DU.

The act of stepping outside the bubble of white privilege that whites are born into -- of even getting them to recognize that this bubble exists in the first place -- is beyond the capability of most.

sw

[blonndee]

60. I'm sorry that's been your experience.

Although, now that I'm thinking about what I started to type, I guess it's been mine, too.

I for one am still hoping this turns into an enlightening thread from which I can learn. I don't know whether or not it's possible to step outside my "white privilege bubble," or to what degree, but I certainly do try to do so. I realize many do not, however. I think it's a fearful thing for many, even to imagine such a thing exists.

[scarletwoman]

63. I wouldn't call it my "experience" so much as my observation -- being white, myself.

[blonndee]

66. Yeah, I guess that's what I meant, too. My "experience" at DU and

in too many conversations. :)

:hi:

[Karenina]

111. BINGO!

:hi::loveya::hi:

[scarletwoman]

138. So many good examples of what I'm talking about in this very thread, eh?

:hi: :loveya: :hi:

sw

[treestar]

119. So a simple statement of "I am privileged because of the white color of my skin"

Will do it? And you expect lower class white people to say it?

This is why the "white privilege" thing does not work at all. Many white people are not all that well off. Then they look on TV and see millionaires like Oprah.

This meme does not do anything but make things worse. It is far better to tell stories of being followed in a store, or feeling scared being the only minority in a room.

Honestly (!) I do not know why so many hang onto it. It doesn't seem that valuable. And after the Civil Rights Act and the past 40 years and the changes made, how are we white liberals supposed to use this to convince any other white people who may still harbor such prejudices? Especially when we have a black President?

Pardon me for having an opinion. I know I'm just supposed to shut up. But the freepers and others don't know that and they won't be cowed with guilt. We know that's never going to work.

[scarletwoman]

136. You obviously don't have a clue about what "white privilege" actually means.

It has nothing to do with economic status. It has nothing to do with demonstrating prejudice.

White privilege is the cultural assumption of the default setting of societal membership. It is the cultural assumption of what constitutes the "norm". As Karenina pointed out in her post #108 above, it is the "the inability a fish has to describe the water in which it swims."

Even the poorest white knows instinctively that he belongs to the default group. He knows he will never be pulled over by a cop for simply "driving while white". He sees reflected all around him images of the "norm" in the white faces that flicker on his TV screen. White sitcoms are just sitcoms -- BLACK sitcoms are black sitcoms.

No matter how personally powerless a white person may be in his own life situation, he is STILL insulated and protected by his visible membership in the dominant culture's normative group.

sw

[SidneyCarton]

175. The interesting thing about white privilege is how Limbaugh & co. sell it.

For many poor whites across the country, the message sent to them is that they need no social justice, they need no reform, no assistance, no health care. Such things are always characterized as assisting idle non-whites, and being funded by the labors of working whites. What is artfully omitted from this whole discourse is how such programs and policies do, and would assist poor whites as well. As a way of maintaining a rich and white hegemony over society, TPTB sell poor whites an empty shell of "whiteness" that neither extracts them from poverty, nor allows them to better the lives of their children. It is an empty conceit, a sense that they are better than their neighbors, when in reality they are as wretched and exploited as their fellows.

Yet we cling, white-knuckled to that sense of superior identity, and rail in uncomprehending rage that the empty trope of "whiteness" does not gain for us riches or social ascendance, and attribute our continued wretchedness to various shadowy conspiracy theories about how any number of groups try to hold them back. (Such idiocy forms the bulk of the ideas expressed on FR and RW radio) And yet we never realize that the primary thing holding us back is the conceit we have been sold and perpetuate to the succeeding generations. This isn't only the case in the South, although it might provide a blueprint of sorts, it manifests itself in both rural America, and in the Suburbs as well. We realize dimly that the so-called "superiority" that was supposedly our birthright does not grant us the greatness, nor the honor that we feel is our due. What most of us fail to realize is that it never really did. That racism has always held us back, by causing us to turn against our neighbors (both literal and figurative) while ignoring our real oppressors.

So long as white America (Of which I form a part) sees members of other ethnic groups as competitors and interlopers instead of neighbors and fellow-travelers toward a common future, we will not progress in this nation. Instead, clinging to an empty and threadbare "privilege" we will drag much of the nation into misery with us.

[Karenina]

229. BIG SHOUT OUT TO SIDNEY!!!

:applause::applause::applause:

[Raineyb]

232. Nicely done!

:thumbsup:

:applause:

My hat's off to you sir!

Regards

[tekisui]

146. That is it exactly. White Privilege blinds us.

And, it is not an easy thing to be realized and overcome. It takes education, empathy and practice.

It is so easy for someone born white to deny that racism is a problem, or that the system has been designed to benefit one color to the detriment of another.

[vaberella]

51. I'll take this seriously and give my input on the race thing....

It's a bit dangerous a subject because I can see this going down a really bad road by other posters. I remember when the whole Proposition 8 was voted yes, it was like ALL Black people were to blame on this site. It didn't matter that homosexuality is not a race in which only one set of people were part of it. It didn't matter that Blacks didn't have the power to even put this blatant disregard of human rights on the election ballot. It was just easy to blame all Black people, some of which were denied their right when this nonsense was passed. This also goes into some of the issues with Congressman Bachmann from Minnesota who thought it was cute to go no the house floor and blame Blacks (miniorities, but Blacks in particular) and Bill Clinton for this currently economic demise or downturn. Which ever makes you happy.

At this point, I get a bit sensitive by even breaching this conversation because it's hard for people to understand and I find even harder for White people to ever grasp the problems Blacks face. This is the main problem, I find between Blacks and Whites. Blacks are forced to live and understand Whites while Whites don't consider us worthy of understanding and when they do it's disingenuous or patronizing.

For example and I find this the best example. During the General Election debates Obama had to play a role in order to get from being lambasted in another role. What does that mean? Obama couldn't come across hard hitting or as hard as he could be because he would be seen as the "Angry Black Man" beating up on the old White man. This was said all over this board and related in some magnittude in the media. What does that mean? Obama had to play a role in this "white man's world" which was toning down his indignant spot which was probably justified so he doesn't get labeled like the New Yorker was doing in their satirical cover page. This is infinitely the problem. So automatically fit some weird stereotype just by the colour of our skin in order to get anywhere. We have to be above par and almost saint like to the point of ass kissing to get anywhere we need to get. This is not to say that Whites don't have to do the same on some levels, but keep in mind a lot of cronism is at work for them as well.

The other point is when a poster a few months back made a statement that caught my attention. She said when she went to see Obama and saw the faces of the people and what he meant to Blacks that she felt if something happened to him Black people would riot. Then she asked if that was racist. I believe her husband shushed her. And I'm like far from it. What it does say, is that she has a complete misunderstanding of Blacks in general. I believe myself and many other Blacks know that the US is also seen as a "White America". That means that we're living on their land and we have to obey they're laws. It is not shared, we're renting and they can't really say no. From our perspective if Obama didn't win it wasn't like Blacks were going to be running and rioting. We've had Jesse Jackson in the past and Al Sharpton running. They've lost, we have always seen America as not a platform for us to really achieve the top spot in this nation. We can get as far as Senate and Congress and we stop there, unless we take on the title of Uncle Tom and join Ms. Rice (as some called her). I had to tell her is that Blacks would be used to this. It would not feel for us as though we were disenfranchised because this has been going on for years. So it would never push us to rioting. The people who would riot would probably be Dems who are supportive of Obama irrespective of race. However, she saw him as our Great Black Hope...he was never like that for us or even like a God send. I live in Harlem and people were extremely wary of him around our way and I know many people called him a pimp because he didn't "do" anything for Black people by their estimation.

In any event, it shows that level of disconnect there. Blacks in a way have becomes subjects to be analyzed, but not understood and respected. I mean this has been going for years. I'm a Black woman who considers herself a womanist because I feel a certain level of separation from the Feminist movement. This is considering our disregard, marginalization, and invisibility to the struggle of our rights. However as a Black person I was taught, mainly by my cousins who faced full on racism, that we need to understand what they're doing to us and fight it.

It's like this, I am of Haitian descent. As such my entire family is a big pick-a-mix. Both my parents were mixed and my step dad was mixed. My mum and her female friends all had White fathers and Black mothers and it was no big deal. It was the same with my step dad, while my real father was White to very light skin mixed (who were racist). In Haiti to get power was to marry the native women. Anyway that's an aside to say that many in my family are far from racist and as a multi-ethnic person colour was never an issue until I got older.

I think my hypersensitivity to things has come about due to the level of racism I am bombarded with. For someone living in Manhattan, the supposed melting pot of the world. I'm dealt with racism on a daily basis. I literally have to sike myself out and prepare myself for something stupid someone might say. I don't think Whites live with that kind of burden on their shoulders when I think Blacks are always aware of it.

So do I have a mistrust of Whites (yeah), I do. It's not to say I can say much considering my family background but they were good guys and I fully realize that many are great people. However, I've even had to take a step back from White people I thought were decent. One of my bosses said to me, keep in mind it's the middle of summer and we're in a closed room with no windows and the air conditioner was off, I said to her that it was ridiculously hot and her response to me was; "But your Black, being from the Caribbean you don't get that hot." What kind of nonsense is that and I was like, so I have an immunity to heat because of the colour of my skin. It was a bit weird. On top of that she was Jewish so I was even more put in arms because I guess I put a bit more stress on those who might have faced racism in their lives. Obviously not though.

I think Black mistrust stems from their treatment by Whites. And Whites mistrust, although a simplistic look and rather crude, is due to the stereotypes the society and media has lead them to believe in rather than in the reality.

I hope this was okay and I answered your question.

[BlooInBloo]

59. Nice...

"broaching" is what you were after, I think. And I thought pretty much all black Americans were mixed. Good ol horny massa, and all, I mean.

[vaberella]

96. That's very true. In Haiti its a bit different because of our independence.

After 1804 there were influxes of German, English, Spanish, and French dominance through periods and the way they figured they could do it successfully in Haiti was by marrying the natives. So they did in most cases marry the native Haitian women who were Black at that point. And raise the children again as mixed, this was the case before 1804 but post was the only way. However, it was unsuccessful and the children post 1804 were just picking up a Haitian identity. So the amount of abuse Blacks in America faced up until the 1960s was a different existence for Haitians. Before 1804 and the 13 years of waring to get our independence was very similar though in treatment.

Thank you for helping me with the word.

[Fire1]

61. Well done, varberella. It's the 'understanding' part that will be

difficult.

[vaberella]

97. Yeah, I totally understand that.

[EFerrari]

102. Very Best of Thread.

:applause:

[geiger]

113. see my post below

I don't like the word "tolerance" used in race relation projects, because, just as you say, it implies one superior caste is doing a favor for another.

Who in the hell is the Blue Boob. I think (s)he is on the wrong website.

[Number23]

176. Fantastic post, Vaberella

I agree with every single word that you've written. Well done. Your honesty is uplifting.

[Uzybone]

192. Very nice post

There isn't much more to add.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

69. Until I heard Holder's comments I never thought of black people as cowards.

Then I started thinking about it. I rarely see black people moving into white neighborhoods. In the future I guess I have to look at that behavior as cowardly. :sarcasm:


David

[BostonMa]

72. DISGUSTING Fire_Medic_Dave

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. I guess I should have added the sarcasm tag.

[Skittles]

75. heh

(post-sarcasm addition)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

79. Sorry skittles I really didn't think it needed the tag, I thought the sarcasm was obvious..

I guess I should have known better considering race was the topic.

David

[BlooInBloo]

81. It was obvious.

[Skittles]

82. aw it happens

[JeffR]

90. Skittles, in two threads tonight I've followed your comments with

interest and appreciation. I know you like your kick-ass persona online here (and I do too) but I want you to know that when what I sense is the "real" you comes through, I for one appreciate that. Rock on, unless you have me on ignore, in which case, I'll just say: rock on.

[Skittles]

93. aw thanks JeffR

I believe my insight comes from growing up as a GI brat, moving every year, with mentally ill parents - lots of room for human observation from that :hi:

[JeffR]

95. And brought to bear wisely and helpfully here in DU,

PS - thanks for not having me on ignore.

[Skittles]

100. you on IGNORE? NEVER!!!

:D

[bridgit]

114. oh get a room you two

:)

[Skittles]

141. yes INDEED!

[bridgit]

150. i'll send the request for my finder's fee under separate cover if i were you...

i'd make Jeff pay it ;)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. Sorry fixed it.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

92. Edit

Wrong spot.

[McCamy Taylor]

98. If you start out by equating the racism of whites against Blacks to the fear that Blacks feel when

in the presence of strange whites, you have already lost the discussion.

That is like comparing apples and oranges. Or like saying that the rapist feels just as violated when he/she commits an act of violence towards another as the victim feels when he/she has an act of sexual violence committed upon him/her.

Maybe in some countries white versus black hostility is a two way street with both sides playing an equal role, each having equal power and neither side being dominant (sort of like a Lutherans versus Baptists grudge)----

But it isn't like that in the U.S.

Whites hate . Blacks fear . White folks may pretend that they are scared to justify their hateful behavior and Blacks may become angry that they have to live in fear, but the primary emotions are the first two I named. And that makes whites the guilty party, who have a whole lot to make up for.

[bridgit]

99. Your's is the prevailing progressive thought here at DU

[DrCory]

103. Progressive?

No, it's more of the same cowardly bullshit.

[bridgit]

143. What passes for it here at DU yes

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. That's funny, I'm white and I don't hate anyone. Thanks for setting me straight.

[treestar]

118. Talk about judging people by the color of their skin

But it's OK because white people are privileged, right?

[Occam Bandage]

162. "Whites hate."

How enlightening.

[geiger]

104. Dealing with racism comes down to the issue of social justice, I think.

Philosopher John Rawls offered "the veil of ignorance" theory: if you went to bed with a veil over your face and you didn't know which country, which socio-economic background or what the color of your skin would be, what would you wake up feeling?

[vaberella]

134. Sometimes I wonder what that would feel like.

My mum had that before she came with me to the US. Since really the dominating problem in Haiti is who has the most money. Some of my mates in England had it, but I came to see it was mainly the biracial children who basically ignored it, although they were slightly aware of it. It was never so prevalent in their lives like it is in ours in England. I used to not think about it as a child...but as I grew up I realized I lived my life through the same glasses without realizing it.

[BlooInBloo]

142. Worst hatchet job on Rawls I've ever seen.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. My Little Story. I Don't Kmow What It All Means

My mom, god bless her, passed away at ninety years old. One of her best friends was an African woman and her husband, Nate. Nate is one of the nicest people I have ever known. He was showing me a commendation he got from the Southern Poverty Law Center's "Teaching Tolerance" program. While I was looking at the commendation I noticed the two Bronze Stars he got for his service in Korea and Viet Nam. Nate must have definitely seen some pain growing up in the Jim Crow South ( He was born in Selma). Anyway when my mom passed away Mary said that my mom was like a grandmother to her. I said that makes me your son. They introduce me to their friends, many of whom are white as their white son. My girlfriend and I drove from Orlando to Fayetteville to spend Christmas with them at their second home. Before I went ,Nate and I would talk abou the trip and ask him what his children will think when they find out they have a white brother. Nate said "my son in law is white." I spoke to his daughter and told her old I was and she was happy I was older than her so she she could still be the baby of the family.

I won't say anymore for fear of offending somebody but I truly love you all.

PEACE
BRIAN

[geiger]

112. Maybe Hollywood could all do us a favor, and make a movie about a family like yours.

I am totally white (Danish and German descent), but have been disowned by my family for not agreeing to not vote for Barack Obama. One of the first memories of my life was a racist comment by my father. I was four years old. And I knew he was wrong; he said, "the niggers have killed Kennedy."

Since escaping that household at the age of sixteen, I have had unexpected and many opportunities put in my way to work on issues of justice and race relations.

I was always uncomfortable with the use of the word tolerance, as it pertains to social justice. It seems that the usage of that word is, at best, dated, now: maybe we as a nation have had to progess in our definitions, but I don't like the use of the word tolerance because it is like some superior people who are being "tolerant" are perhaps doing someone a favor or service, when, in fact, we should just all be kind and loving toward each other. I have been marginalized for being poor and for speaking truth, and I don't like that feeling.

That is what your story means to me. Thank you very much for sharing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

121. Here's The Link

http://www.tolerance.org/index.jsp

Maybe I am lucky. I never heard my parents use the n-word. I can honestly say I never heard them make a bigoted remark. When we moved from New York to Florida in 1970 my father was unfamiliar with the mores of the south. He worked construction so at lunch he sat down to eat with his African American co-workers. They told him if he did he would be shunned by his white co-workers. He used to take my mom and I to VISTA his African American friends from work. At that time DeLand, Florida was residentially segregated. It still is for the most part. It was fun for me because it was a lot different from where I lived. I was twelve or so and would play with the kids and have a good time. They would visit us. I used to have a mini-bike and gave them rides on it. One of my idiot neighbors said he saw something fly out of the girl's hair. I'm glad my parents raised mme the way they did. They taught me what separates a person from others is how they conduct themselves not who they are.

PEACE
DSB

[goclark]

133. Peace to you as well, Thanks for sharing your experiences

with us.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

107. Is there sufficient bravery and honesty at DU to accept the reality of...

ONE race?
----------
The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey

by Spencer Wells

Amazon.com Review

Spencer Wells traces human evolution back to our very first ancestor in The Journey of Man. Along the way, he sums up the explosive effect of new techniques in genetics on the field of evolutionary biology and all available evidence from the fossil record. Wells's seemingly sexist title is purposeful: he argues that the Y chromosome gives us a unique opportunity to follow our migratory heritage back to a sort of Adam, just as earlier work in mitochondrial DNA allowed the identification of Eve, mother of all Homo sapiens.
<>
Though finding our primal male is an exciting prospect, the real revolution Wells describes is racial. Or rather, nonracial, as he reiterates the scientific truth that our notions of what makes us different from each other are purely cultural, not based in biology.
<>
Readers interested in a fairly technical, but not overwhelming, summary of the remarkable conclusions of 21st-century human evolutionary biology will find The Journey of Man a perfect primer. --Therese Littleton
http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Man-Genetic-Odyssey/dp/0812971469
--------------------------------------------------------

“Genetics, I think, resoundingly has answered the question of where we ultimately came from, we came out of Africa. And we came out quite recently, within the last 50 or 60 thousand years,”
--Spencer Wells

[hiphopnation]

109. your two-pronged motivation for this discussion

on THIS board strikes me as a bit disingenuous.

try going to your nearest predominantly black or latino neighborhood and have this type of discussion there -- it'll likely be way more illuminating, if indeed you're looking for the type of honesty you claim to be.

[Karenina]

144. Hey Skip! If you haven't abandoned this thread, let's go here:

I'll just say, as far as my experience, that I have come to know that many white people have, to some degree, a distrust of black people. And I believe that many black people have, to some degree, a distrust of white people. I think this feeling runs deep, generations deep. And that it goes mostly unspoken. And I think this must be the elephant in the living room of our nation that Holder was trying to draw attention to.

I have some questions.

Is there a reason that, as a group, white people should inherently distrust native, Latino, black, Asian people?
What would those be?

Do Americans designated as people of colour have any reason, as a group, to distrust white people (historically until they're accepted as such)?
What would those be?

You wanna see some serious out there shit, check out Tyra Banks laying it all bare in its fuckedupness...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM2_w-m_UFs

Do watch the whole thing and remember dis is da wimminfolk talkin'. They tend in such circumstances to just spit it all out there.
I do wonder how easy it was for the producers to find them. :evilgrin:

[Tatiana]

197. That video was chilling. I mean that's some truly scary stuff. n/t

[KoKo]

158. If this is about Eric Holder's Comments....

then I'd have to say that he didn't do Obama any favors after Obama's efforts to bring us all together over race in America by Electing Him by bringing up a dark thing...when Obama has so much on his plate.

Holder took us BACK...where Obama was MOVING US FORWARD.

Calling Americans Cowards when so many voted for Obama in states that Obama won over to create a NEW DEM COALITION sort of would cause a backlash onto many of those who went out of their "box" of RW/Racist Friends and Family to vote for him. Holder set back race relations with his comments and are causing grief with many of us who live in those RED STATES ...and the ones who TURNED BLUE for Obama.

Holder is still holding onto grievances from his past as as Attorney General do we need to have the RW now going at him for every decision he makes that would be cleaing up the Justice Department that would be seen as him being Racist in every thing he does by his comments.

:shrug: Just saying ...many folks went on the line for Obama against what we thought to be backlash...but Holder has now made us hunted.

[Occam Bandage]

161. An honest discussion of race cannot possibly occur.

Not with whites, not with blacks, not with Asians, not with anyone.

[Karenina]

167. as long as you're in the room...

[MrSlayer]

164. Ok. Racism is fostered by the rich to deflect the fact that they are shitting on all of us.

The rich, white, ruling class doesn't like me, the middle class, white, union worker any more than they like the middle class or poor black, asian or latino. They hate all of us but they use racism to deflect the anger from them. The non-whites are keeping the poor whites from becoming rich like them is the way the story goes. It's complete bullshit but it has been very effective for them. As long as we keep hating each other we'll never gang up on the real problem, which is them robbing us blind. Racism is holding us all back.

[Fountain79]

179. Everyone's a little bit racist sometimes......

"Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race."

"Everyone's a little bit racist
It's true.
But everyone is just about
As racist as you!
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
And everyone stopped being
So PC
Maybe we could live in -
Harmony!"

-From Avenue Q

No truer words have been spoken by a puppet.

[Raineyb]

181. Please tell me that this is not supposed to imply that both sides are equally responsible for the

state of race relations in this country?

It is the most ridiculous of notions.

Regards

[Fountain79]

182. The point is that everyone.....

EVERYONE has some kind of racial preconceived notion about race, ethnicity, etc.....and the sooner we can recognize that is the sooner we can actually have HONEST conversations about race.

[BlooInBloo]

183. Yes, that's precisely what he means. He knows it's a lie, naturally.

[Fountain79]

184. No I actually believe it...n/t

[Raineyb]

185. Then you believe a lie n/t

Regards

[Fountain79]

186. That everyone's a little bit racist?????

I think it's something we all need to acknowledge...


Furthermore.....what sides are you talking about?

[Raineyb]

189. Well for the sake of argument and as it's usually the context I'm talking about black and white

people.

You seem to be under the impression that racism is a character flaw that needs to be overcome. Racism is a caste system with black people being on the bottom and white people on top. Everything about how this country works is predicated on that and the most powerful people on top aren't the least bit interested in changing that at all. That's why they like the status quo because if poor white people figured out that they would be better off throwing their lot in with black people the upper classes would be in danger of being taken down. So they made whiteness so precious that they get these poor schnooks to believe that their whiteness is the most valuable thing they have. As a result they have an annoying tendency to vote against their own economic interests rather than be associated with a party that is seemingly so closely aligned with black people.

Regards

[Fountain79]

190. First off....

discussion about race and race relations need to move beyond white and black...that's the first problem.

And apparently that is your opinion on race in this country rather than actual fact. Personally, believing that you are a part of a group that is destined to be among the poorest is the surest way of not improving your situation...

[Raineyb]

202. You make an awful lot of presumptions about my situation

You also seem to think that those who run the power structure are equally the victims of those who suffer due to the power structure. That in my not so humble opinion is a heaping pile of bullshit.

Actually, when it comes to defining racism yeah, I am stating my definition as fact. That is part of the problem in the first place. Far too many white people seem to be under the impression that racism is merely a character flaw. This makes it easier for them to think that they personally are not part of the problem. "I don't feel that way. I'm not a racist." Racism is far too institutionalized to dismiss it as a mere character flaw like one would see the inability to tell the truth or arrogance. Racism is in how business, law enforcement, government, medicine, education all work in concert to make it more difficult to get ahead. It's in the driving while black, the underfunding of our schools, the redlining of neighborhoods, the nasty habit of placing things like bus terminals in neighborhoods of color.

If we're going to have an honest discussion about race then we need to start with a common definition and since people of color are the victims of racism in this country we get to set the definition. I can't speak for everyone but I think it's safe to say that if you were to actually ask us which definition is closer to being correct you'll find that it is not yours.

Regards



Regards

[Fountain79]

203. According to merriam-webster...

Racism: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Your words are the exact reason why we can't have an honest discussion about race in this country. Instead of a conversation it is a set of demands, it is a ultimatum. I'm sorry people of color(Which is what? Just black people?) are not the only victims of racism. It goes beyond merely black and white. It sure seems like when their is a discussion about racism the average white person has to apologize 1000 times in any discussion. You know what? I'm done apologizing.....

[Raineyb]

204. People of color actually encompasses anyone who isn't white. But you already know that.

You're done apologizing?

You know what, fuck your apology! All apologies seem to get is more mealy mouth bullshit about how things need to improve without anything actually being done! They don't mean a Goddamn thing! We conduct studies about racial profiling but nothing's actually done about it. We see the disparities in our schools but people shrug and say well they just don't have the property tax revenue, there's disparities in health results but precious little is done about that either. Your apologies don't mean shit if all you do is mouth some pathetic apology without doing a damn thing about it.

And as far as this discussion is concerned those who suffer from racism get to define it. You don't like it, there's the door. Go back to your fantasy world where racism in this country is partially the fault of those who suffer under it. I'm not sure where this place is as it doesn't exist but you're clearly more comfortable operating there.

You are the God damned problem. You apparently want some kind of absolution which means that you don't have to do a damn thing. You're probably one of those people who expect black people to be grateful that things aren't worse. Well you know what, you can keep your apology. I don't want it and I don't need it. What I need is for this society to be as concerned for the well being of its black and brown citizens as it is its white ones. Your so-called guilt and alleged apologies don't do that.

Regards

[Fountain79]

205. Such language....

"We see the disparities in our schools but people shrug and say well they just don't have the property tax revenue"

As far as schools go, money is not the problem. Schools such as Kansas City, MO, don't suffer from a lack of funds but rather a mishandling of them.


"You are the God damned problem. You apparently want some kind of absolution which means that you don't have to do a damn thing. You're probably one of those people who expect black people to be grateful that things aren't worse. Well you know what, you can keep your apology. I don't want it and I don't need it. What I need is for this society to be as concerned for the well being of its black and brown citizens as it is its white ones. Your so-called guilt and alleged apologies don't do that."

I don't expect any kind of absolution, I believe any discussion is an ongoing process and I don't expect black people to be grateful. I do however have a problem with any discussion about racism always beginning with...."Let's sit whitey down and tell him what he is doing wrong!" It's a lot easier to feel better about a situation when you got someone to blame it on.

[Raineyb]

207. And you think it's better to tell black people

"This is how I think you bring racism upon yourself."

Yeah, that'll work.

Regards

[bridgit]

235. Not really, it trends toward boiler plate BLT

[Karenina]

223. if you were to actually ASK us...

if you were to actually ask us... if you were to actually ask us... if you were to actually ask us... if you were to actually ask us... if you were to actually ask us... if you were to actually ask us... And then LISTEN...

[Raineyb]

187. Since you've called for honesty I'll give it to you. Don't forget you asked for it.

I don't like to discuss race with white people because frankly, I don't think most of you can handle it. I find that far too many white people get defensive and worse attempt to change the subject whenever black people bring up grievances. For example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=274040

Note in the video how Pat Buchanan continuously goes on about the black illegitimacy rate and the black crime rate. Such statistics (which aren't even true) aren't germane to the topic of the segment which was AG Holder's comments about America's cowardice when it comes to race. So why bring it up? Because Pat Buchanan is a racist prick and basically what he was saying is: I think black people are animals and it's true because look at these statistics. As such I need not regard anything they say with any seriousness whatsoever. How dare these uppity Negros call out white people! (Which AG Holder did not do unless you think America = white people a belief which is obviously held by both Buchanan and the puke-worthy fabricator Mike Barnicle.)

Let's ignore the lie that the black community is more prone to illegitimacy and violent behavior. What exactly does any of these things have to do with the ways the institutional racism also brings down our community? Just because we bring up racism doesn't mean we are blaming only white people for our ills. The same people who claim that by bringing up grievances against white people, black people are "blaming whitey" for all our problems certainly don't deign to listen to black radio where we do discuss what we can do to fix things.

Where in the hell does this come up in the video in question? That's right, it doesn't. No one was blaming white people for all of black people's problems which once again was not the topic of discussion in said video, despite Pat Buchanan's repeated attempts to make it the topic of the conversation. But let's for one minute pretend that these statistics were true. What exactly does that have to do with treating black people like human beings?

Then there's the so-called progressive. Apparently, there are some segments of white people who claim to be progressives while sharing Mr. Buchanan's opinion even if they wouldn't state it quite the way Mr. Pukecanan did as evidenced by this reply to a comment I made in the OP listed above:

"What I saw is Mr. Buchanan making a point that blacks have to stop blaming others for their situation."

So what we have here in my not so humble opinion is a man who refuses to acknowledge that racism is a problem and believes that if black people expect to be treated like human beings then we need to clean up our act. In other words until we act the way you think we should act, like you; then we don't deserve to demand anything like being treated like human beings. Nor will we be allowed to point out any deficiencies on your part while you will point out our deficiencies every chance you get because we are not your equal.

Is that your argument? Really?

Because it's the equivalent of having a cop come across one guy beating the crap out of another guy who also happens to have a nasty case of poison ivy. The guy getting beaten yells "Help, this guy's beating the crap out of me and I have a nasty rash because of this poison ivy!" The cop looks at the two men and says to the man on the ground, "Stop scratching" It's not helpful.


Am I supposed to think that this attitude is any more acceptable because you claim to be a progressive?

Let me enlighten you then, I have never made the mistake of assuming that the racists all have a R after their name so I don't care about all the other reason you claim to be a Democrat or a Progressive, if you espouse racist ideas, (or defend Pat Buchanan) you are a racist as far as I'm concerned and your party affiliation doesn't mean a damn thing to me. You are a danger to me and as such are my enemy.

Another problem I have in the race discussion is the concept of gratitude. The Pat Buchanan's of the world constantly harp on how much better things are now than back in the day. Well, that is true. So what? Does that mean that we don't bother to try to ameliorate what is wrong now? What do you want a cookie?

I greatly appreciate that the law doesn't force me into black only fountains and (in theory) into neighborhoods where I know that the services won't be as good as that of the white folks on the other side of town, that fact that this does not happen by force of law anymore is not something for which you should get accolades. I expect not to be treated differently because of the color of my skin. You are not owed any bloody gratitude for behaving properly. (Especially when you did it kicking and screaming.) That is the equivalent of my nephew wanting me to pat him on the back for not hitting his sister. He's not supposed to hit his sister I'm not going to reward him for that and I'm not going to let white people off the hook by pretending that the fact that legally mandated segregation no longer exists means that there's not a whole hell of a lot that still needs to be done. You will get no gratitude from me on this score. Expecting gratitude for being treated properly is rather nervy don't you think? You don't ask women to be grateful when their husbands don't beat them do you?

So, you wanted honest discussion. You've just heard a few items that run through my mind when race is discussed. Let's see what you do with it.

Regards

[Number23]

191. And don't forget! Blacks in America have it soooo much better than blacks in Africa!

The Pat Buchanan's of the world constantly harp on how much better things are now than back in the day.

Doesn't that make you feel, you know... GRATEFUL???

[Skip Intro]

200. Thank you.

Thank you for giving an honest reply, and thanks to other who have attempted to do so in this thread. Obviously, I was being way naive in thinking such a discussion could take place here. Many, it would seem, would approach the subject with fire in their eyes and knives in their hands, wanting to accuse more than discuss - label more than understand, incapable of little more than snide remarks and posturing. But some did reply to this thread with sincerity, and I am hopeful for that. And I am thankful for your reply.

You know, I've always thought that when there is distrust or harsh feelings from one group toward another, or even one family member toward the other, that there are a few options. Ignore the feelings, and hold resentment. Put that resentment into action and learn hate. Or have an honest dialog and get to the bottom of the issue. My attempt here is the latter.

And it just seems fitting that I share with you and all who read this that I indeed grew up in a majority black neighborhood, and went to majority black schools, worked in retail, and still do, serving a public that is at least 50% black. Much as some here would like to insinuate or even blatantly attach the label of racist to me, it just is not so. And as I don't really have to prove anything along those lines to anyone, I won't say anymore about that.

To address your reply, right off the bat, yeah, pat buchanan does indeed appear to be a racist moron, and he has plenty of company, and I am no fan of his. I don't think I've ever defended anything he's ever said. But you seem to equate my OP, and my intention, with his. That just isn't the case. I don't know how you concluded that it is.

Maybe it is because I said I didn't agree that being white automatically equals quilt. I'm not ashamed to be white. I don't think anyone should be ashamed to be what they are. I don't think that simply being a member of any race should equal automatic superiority or inferiority or deference or advantage or disadvantage relative to any other member of any other race. I believe in equality. I believe the races of this nation, black, white, hispanic, etc, have to varying degrees a distrust of the other, and that a wealth of our problems stem from that distrust. I believe that is what Holder was referring to. I found merit in those remarks. I started this thread with a sincere desire to provoke dialog about the issue.

I've got to say, and please understand I'm just continuing to give you my honest opinion - I hear you refer to pat buchanan and his ilk over and over, and resent the ideas and ignorance they parade, as do I, but then it seems you almost want to apply that resentment to all people who are white. And I can begin to understand the depth of that resentment, but, being honest here, all white people are not pat buchanan.

I've always tried to treat each person I encounter with kindness and good will. I wish everyone did. And that is just the truth, regardless of who believes it.

I hope there comes a day when harmony equality replace resentment and distrust on all sides. What we as a people could accomplish then.

Thank you again for being blunt and honest. Can't have a real dialog with insults and accusations.

[Raineyb]

201. This is why I do not do mixed group discussions of race

You wanted an honest take. So I told you what goes through my mind. It was not directed at you personally. I am merely saying what goes through my mind. You asked for it. I was perfectly willing to leave such a discussion with a small group of people who I know will get it. But it's too late to do anything about that it's out there.

I don't consider racism to be someone's personal failing. It is far too ingrained in the fabric of our society and it's obvious in ways that a lot of white people just don't get. (Frankly there are times when I think they're being deliberately obtuse which is even more annoying.) If it isn't the clerk in the store following you while the white person is shoplifting, it's watching the cable news and watching the story about the missing white woman du jour and knowing if your black behind went missing the odds that you'd would not get the same attention. It's the fact that I know that now that my nephew has passed the "oh what a beautiful little boy" stage it's only a matter of very short time before he's looked at as an automatic suspect subject to being shot down by some cop because he vaguely "fits the description" or worse is carrying the wrong wallet or candy bar. It's knowing that my health isn't taken as seriously as a white person's. I'm less likely to get the benefit of the doubt. People think saying I speak well is a compliment as though it were a surprise that I am capable of speaking standard English. It's having to prove that I have a brain in my head instead of being thought of as reasonably intelligent and having to prove I'm an idiot. It's constantly having to explain things that seem so bloody obvious to me over, and over, and over again and still the point isn't understood.

It is so many many things and yes sometimes there is resentment. Are you surprised? You treat people as a second class citizen even going so far as expecting people to be grateful for their second class status you'll get some resentment. And as to not directing it to Pat Buchanan? He's only saying what a lot of people think. Otherwise he wouldn't be on the TV all the time and you wouldn't get so many people actively defending him. Too many white people don't speak up. They make excuses for the Pat Buchanan's of the world and bend over backwards to excuse that stupid cartoon while expecting every black politician to denounce Louis Farrakhan as though everything would be just fine if only he would keep his yap shut. As has been said so often on this very board silence is consent. So while I do have white friends with whom I may or may not discuss such things, as a group, you don't get close enough to fuck with me until you've proven you're not a racist. Otherwise, we'll keep it civil and keep it moving. I see no reason why I should have to open myself up to scrutiny when you're not all that willing to do the same. (General "you" again here.)

Regards

[Tartiflette]

239. One thing you said struck a chord with me

and it reminded me of my position of privilege, being that I'm a white, middle-class, educated male. I had cut my hair extremely short, for the first time in my life (near-skinhead short), and on the way to football training I stopped into a supermarket to buy a drink to take with me. For the first time in my life, I was followed by a guard around the shop, and he made it fairly obvious that I was, to him, a potential threat. I didn't really figure it out until I left the shop, as I wasn't really thinking about my haircut, but then it dawned on me, and it was a moment of real clarity ... that because of my appearance I had had to prove that I wasn't a threat, rather than being treated that way from the start. It was the only time in my life that I have ever come close to understanding in a visceral way the everyday, casual racism (and sexism) that exists in Western societies.

[Karenina]

240. I have this goofy fantasy theory that

in order for a white male to perfectly get it, he'd be born in Japan of American or even Am/Jp parents, perfectly bilingual, educated in public schools and Gaijin for life. The only difference then would be, he'd still have an out.

[Tartiflette]

242. You're probably right

At least for those of us males that are relatively well off. I'm fairly certain white males living in poverty might have an inkling of what it is may be like to experience on a daily basis the sort of casual, unrecorded discrimination we're talking about. I wouldn't presume to claim that I understand it, only that for a briefest moment I got a glimpse of something that might be like it.

[Marrah_G]

206. I think this thread illustrates what Holder was talking about.

We are incapable of having honest discussion on the topic.

[Raineyb]

208. How?

You say we're incapable (and wouldn't even disagree.) but I suspect it's for different reasons than why I think we're not capable.

Regards

[Karenina]

210. VERY DIFFERENT REASONS.

[Marrah_G]

213. Are you saying you already know what my reasons are?

I'm a bit confused as to what you are trying to say.

I enjoyed your posts upthread. They were thoughtful and informative.

I am listening.

[Karenina]

219. NO, NO, NO! Thanks for asking!

I be second-guessing Rb! But do say more about your take on things.

[Marrah_G]

221. My take on things:

We need to talk more, listen more and be more patient with one another when doing so.

Most of this thread turned into a flamefest, but a couple small subthreads are people really trying to talk, it's a start.

I think how we approach one another has alot to do with how the conversation ends up.

[Karenina]

224. From me to you...

If you see me getting snippy, KNOW and FEEL that it is the result of being born into a situation where I was always related to and intimately involved with people of ALL hues and find myself SIX DECADES LATER confronting the same shit, different day.

HOW we approach each other. Now THERE'S a salient point! I'd be curious what posts you consider flaming. Please PM me on that enquiry unless you feel ok putting it all out there. BLOO DOES NOT COUNT! :rofl:

[Marrah_G]

227. I will definitely think of that if I ever see you getting passionate on the topic

As for the flaming...just the fighting back and forth on a few sub threads. Its the usual stuff. No, bloo's don't count since I do not see his/her posts and haven't for a very long time.

It is indeed how we approach each other. Just this conversation alone has made me feel as though we made a few baby steps. it's a big world out there and we are going to need a trillion more baby steps though.

And if you ever see me say something that is offensive just plain off-base, please know you can always send me a pm saying "hey- careful with saying XYZ"

We have so much common ground and we should never be at odds.

[Karenina]

247. How we approach each other...

is such a central point. I got your back. :pals:

[Marrah_G]

211. I think most people have a very difficult time both expressing themselves honestly and listening

This is a very raw topic. A very sensitive topic. To discuss it honestly we must be willing to hear people out without rushing to judgment. We must also be willing to take a good look at ourselves and view our own stereotypes openly and honestly. We must be willing to ask ourselves " Why do we think that way?". Even right now, I think you were expecting a completely different answer from me, you were prejudging my response. We all do that.

I think we are cowards when it comes to race because all of us are afraid to confront the tough issues, especially when the issue is ourselves.

Maybe some day we can talk about it. But I personally think we have a long way to go, myself included.

[Karenina]

214. Raw, Marrah_G? How about maggot-infested?

I will speak frankly to you as I've seen you around for some years now and imagine you've seen me around.

It would seem that "white" people are terrified of "the others'" anger, no matter how it's expressed. They want above all else to control the dialog. Most have no need in life to have any skin in the game (that they would acknowledge) yet feel that they get to define the terms. I got quite impatient with a young man above waxing poetic about self-identity. There is no ambiguity about his.
There's quite a bit about mine, my children's my parents', my cousins', my great-whatevers and first cousins twice removed. I asked over and over again what demographic enables the "avaricious ruling class" as we called them in my day, ;-) to perpetuate its WAR against the people? (He wouldn't call it that but I DO! AND by extension enables the extermination of peoples sitting atop resources... O8) Stifle it K.)

See the response upstream somewhere.

Let's be brave and have an honest discussion about race in the US.

What are your opinions about what SI wrote? He prolly has me on ignore by now.

"I'll just say, as far as my experience, that I have come to know that many white people have, to some degree, a distrust of black people."

What do you feel is the basis for whites' distrust of blacks?

And I believe that many black people have, to some degree, a distrust of white people. I think this feeling runs deep, generations deep. And that it goes mostly unspoken. And I think this must be the elephant in the living room of our nation that Holder was trying to draw attention to.

What do you feel is the basis for blacks' distrust of whites? What does the last sentence say to you, if anything?

OOOOH! And girlfriend, did you see that Tyra Banks link I posted somewhere in here? Was it #144? Talk about things that make ya go hmmm... :crazy:

[Marrah_G]

215. I think the black community has a damn good reason to distrust the white community

Racism is still out there, even if our President is half black. Frankly, I think the fact that he was raised by whites made him more acceptable in some way to alot of people (hows that for honesty?) in some fucked up way.

I don't feel whites have a legitimate reason to fear blacks, they are reacting emotionally to garbage shown on tv, in my opinion. I'm hoping I have been successful in teaching my children to see past that, time will tell.

I did not click the tyra banks link, but I just might now.

I think the OP was trying to open a discussion and stumbled a bit in getting his message across. I think his intentions were positive ones.

I wish I had the answers on how we can come together to discuss race without it turning into a flamefest as it almost always does. But then again, if I had those answers I wouldn't be just another office wench.

All I can say is, I will try to listen and learn if you will have some patience with me if I stumble.

[bridgit]

244. "maggot-infested"? How precious an image that ~

[kwassa]

216. To have a discussion we must acknowledge each other's position

Even if the topic gets highly emotional, which it has, what I am not encountering in this thread are the specific items brought up on both sides of this divide.

You say all white people are not Pat Buchanan, and you are correct. I think that most white progressives on this site mean the very best for black people overall; that is my personal belief. At the same time, I am not hearing many white voices in this thread acknowledging the specific points some of the black noters are making. This results, on both sides, with people talking past each other rather than to each other, and therefore a discussion is not really happening. It takes more than being a good person and wishing other people well, it also takes an active effort to listen and acknowledge the other person's points, and to LEARN about them. Despite shared progressive positions, there is still much social segregation in this country, and the progressive blacks and whites may not know each other very well.

I am finding that both you and MellowDem seem to work in minority environments, but I don't think that either of you has had this conversation with the people of color around you. That might be a good place to start, too.

[Marrah_G]

218. I think you are right on the money with your answer.

I think I am guilty of doing exactly what you are talking about. From now on I will try and listen more.

[bridgit]

198. Sorry, but it is known; there is only one 'side' & there is only one race that perpetrates crimes...

against humanity, forget blacks: there is only one race that perpetrates crimes against HUMANITY!! -- and they are 'the whites of small 'a' america'. They, the whites of small 'a' america, are therefore the "horny massas", overlords of a lorded over world filled with fearful oppressions that only they are able to bring to ruin. And that is the truth...and the lie that all must believe or perish while trying

[Stinky The Clown]

222. Obviously damned few here want to have a serious talk. They'd rather be assholes.

I think your statement of your point of view was a bit out of tune. But also common. Anyone wishing to discuss this honestly might have started with that. Or some other aspect of your statement to which they took issue.

Instead, the assholes came out to show their assholishness. Pretty typical ..... there's history there.

[Karenina]

225. I asked TWICE...

Did you read the whole thread? :shrug:

[Number23]

226. Which assholes came out to show their assholishness??

Just curious. Thanks

[ibegurpard]

231. Let's not

Internet navel gazing by people who can never understand the other person's point of view is pointless.
Let's just each try to treat everyone that we deal with on a personal basis well and maybe that will translate into a macro-scale improvement in this area.

[Raineyb]

233. Discussing race is a lot more important to my overall well being than mere navel gazing

You've made the same mistake so many people make when discussing race. You seem to think that it's merely a matter of how people treat one another as individuals. We are, at least I and a few like minded people, are discussing a systemic problem. Systemic problems by their nature is are not solved merely by trying to treat one another decently on a personal basis.

Regards

[Karenina]

234. Indeed it is NOT an "individual" problem or "personal failing."

There are so many who have the capacity to think "BIG PICTURE" EXCEPT on the issue of institutionalized racism. They ignore "IT" and those of us "IT" has chewed up and spit out thinking if they just control their speech everything will be OK.

[M0rpheus]

236. The only way to get an understanding, is to listen and learn.

Ask a few questions.

Giving up because its too hard, and hoping everything will just be alright is where this conversation ends, all the time. Treating each other well is the ultimate goal, but doing it just for the sake of doing it says you have manners. It doesn't say you understand anything.
We aren't having this conversation just for the participants, but also for the people who are following along not commenting.

We (at DU)put a lot of value this past election cycle, to helping people see the light, and to vote for our candidate. Is this request any less valuable?

[Karenina]

238. ASK A FEW QUESTIONS.

Skip Intro, unserer Gästgeber, seems to have abandoned ship. THIS is the type of cowardice Holder referred to.

He asked no questions of those whose lives are daily affected by racism. He simply laid out HIS VIEW, guidelines and priorities. Then we were treated to a YWM's vision of race, which comes to a "reasonable conclusion" from someone with no skin in the game, whose "calculations" do not prove. Did he copy the bottom line from a neighbor? :evilgrin:

Skippykins? Wo bist Du denn?

I'm no coward, having dealt with these issues SINCE BIRTH. I say without equivocation, it is WHITE PEOPLE, (who define what is "non-white"), particularly poor and "middle class" who need to get over themselves and board the "Love Train."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvsAqkOhI48

[Tartiflette]

243. A question or two, then

About poverty, as your comment seems to take an unforgiving tone toward poor white people as well as the middle class. It seems to me that there are forces in play that encourage scapegoating amongst the poor, to direct their anger at the wrong targets, and ultimately, which I think you allude to elsewhere, to lead them to vote against their own interests, and hence perpetuate the status quo. Would you agree? How difficult then is it to break free from the dominant, "mainstream" way of thinking around you and to realise that there are serious flaws in your world view? I simply do not know the answer to that, and seek your thoughts about it, but I'm far more forgiving of those people than I am of those who should or do know better, and either refuse to acknowledge the truth, or deny it. (And regarding your comment above - I don't have a skin in the game, hence it's easy for me to intellectualise this, and I appreciate that)

You know, I'd wager most of the people here at DU have taken a step like that, I guess arriving here from all sorts of backgrounds, but with a common link in that they realise there is something wrong. And in fact, putting on a tin hat, one wonders whether this pitting of groups against one another isn't really a "divide and conquer" strategy played out deliberately by the people who hold real power in society.

[Karenina]

246. I appreciate your outreach and extend a hearty Welcome to DU!!!

About poverty, as your comment seems to take an unforgiving tone toward poor white people as well as the middle class.

What you're seeing a is lifelong frustration and utter exasperation with this idiocy. It is KILLING US ALL. (DUer TimeforChange wrote an insightful essay on Racism and Iraq; he has a journal here. I do wonder if they will ever forgive).

The first time I was called a nigger at school, I was quite beside myself. It was the poisonous emotion with which the epithet was hurled that hit its intended target, even moreso than the word itself.. I had NEVER been addressed in such a tone. My daddy tried to comfort me by saying, "When you're grown up people will understand that skin is just skin." I remember him tearing up and the thought "He's fibbing" crossed my kid mind.

IT'S OVER A DAMN HALF CENTURY LATER, WE'RE ALL IN DIRE STRAIGHTS AND THE TOILET IS STILL STOPPED UP!!! :argh::argh::argh:
(oh dear... am i yelling again? don't mind, it's just part of the cadence).

It seems to me that there are forces in play that encourage scapegoating amongst the poor, to direct their anger at the wrong targets, and ultimately, which I think you allude to elsewhere, to lead them to vote against their own interests, and hence perpetuate the status quo. Would you agree?

ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY. What 'forces in play' do you recognize?

How difficult then is it to break free from the dominant, "mainstream" way of thinking around you and to realise that there are serious flaws in your world view?

I certainly understand the difficulty. To quote Ralph Emerson: "To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment." It was my great good fortune to be born into an interracial, multicultural family, 5 generations of whom currently walk this earth. It was also my great good fortune to have been born into comfortable circumstances to highly educated parents. My environment, since infancy, has been filled with people from everywhere. We lived in staff housing for Dad's gig. The neighbors were from the U.S., Poland, Trinidad, U.K., Panama, Serbia, India, Hungary, Hawaii (before it was a state. Kapiolani and Malia were at our house, or we were at theirs) and that was our "normal." Moms ordered me about in many different languages. I never misunderstood a command. The WORDS didn't matter. The 'force' behind them DID. :rofl:

Short answer: Get out more! Go hang out with people who are different than you, STFU, LISTEN, eat, drink, dance and be merry!!!

of those who should or do know better, and either refuse to acknowledge the truth, or deny it.

Babykins, it's the DENIAL that makes a li'l o' "apparently black" lady like me go :nuke: The INSULT of denial is SO MUCH WORSE than the injury of sick, twisted projections.

Racism is such psychic BRUTALITY evidenced in the various military conflict throughout the world. And meanwhile, the Bankers whistle past the graveyard...

[bridgit]

248. "Babykins"? Oh piffle, the point could be made DU's ignore feature...

as a mere for instance is in many cases, up to and including 'honest' discussions as to race relations in America; is a form of cowardice itself however low-grade yet some utilize it against others while demanding no one, under any circumstances ignore them, oy! If I had the money I would, I'd open a swanky titty bar with a new shiny brass pole and call it: The Mobius Strip ;)

[Tartiflette]

249. That denial is found everywhere

It seems, from my perspective that sexism is more overtly "denied" than racism, but that's a personal observation from my limited experience (well that, and the unsavoury denialists who frequent the comment is free pages on the Guardian website to criticise seemingly every woman writer who dares touch on sexism issues). I do need to note that I've lived most of my life in something of an ivory tower, and have nothing to compare with your staff housing hotch-potch.

Anyway, that's not what I wanted to respond to, rather it was the "forces in play" question you threw back at me. I'll answer from my (limited) understanding of the US, but the answers are applicable pretty much everywhere.

To whit, there are many people who have invested a lot in the status quo, who are concerned primarily with retaining their own positions of power in society, and damn the consequences. Most of the opinion formers of the right wing, obviously, and what might be termed "the ruling class" (If one chooses to look beyond the myth of the US as a classless society). And some of the Democratic party too - it's hardly an unsullied force for good. These "forces" extends from politics into business and beyond into some of the organised religions, which prey on people's fears to make money and draw new recruits.

Again, I'm going to go off into tinfoil hat territory, but I think there are few accidents involved in the development of society as it is today. I think that fairly early these "forces" realised that in order to retain power they needed new tools, as the constitution of the US, and its unique (at the time) documentation of individual rights dictated that the tools used commonly to subdue the populace, ie violent methods, were not going to be as easy to apply in this country. Being a vast country with an enormous population, this poses huge risks to those in power - even a small percentage of the country banding together could mean 1 million individuals or more. So, it seems there are other means that need to be employed.

I think one can see some of those tools simply by observing the world: The rise of mass entertainment, an excellent diversion, as is the access to other simple and quick pleasures; Limited access to outside information, ie the navel-gazing focus on what is going on inside the US; strident nationalism, coupled with subtle messages that your nation is somehow better than all those around it; near-constant external threats, which tend to focus minds away from internal issues; related to this, the exploitation of race to create scapegoats; and education, where I think there has been no real drive to improve or maintain standards other than to provide a steady flow of new recruits for the corporations (I'm on shaky ground with this one, because at it's best, the US education one can receive is probably unparalleled). Some of these factors are deliberately manipulated, some have simply been allowed to develop.

To go back to the topic of the discussion, the forces at play encourage racism to perpetuate, using a whole range of tools - mass imprisonment and resulting disenfranchisement, perpetuating the myth of the African American man as a criminal; the Willie Horton ads and their offspring, doing the same; the use of language such as " articulate" to tarnish other African-Americans by making it seem that this was an exception; the endless repetition of the myth that America is a country where you can do anything, therefore those that don't succeed simply haven't wanted to;...the list is endless.

Racism is not specific to the US, of course, and I make no claims that the US is better or worse than elsewhere. I have a good friend in the UK whose dad is a senior police officer in the north of England. My friend told me that his dad has to fight the impulse to follow every black man who was driving a nice car, and of course if this attitude was prevalent in the force, it would lead to disproportionate arrests, and hence perpetuate the cycle and the perception of the black man as criminal (Note, it would be inappropriate to call black/coloured people African Americans in the UK, and the term African British is non-existent, to the best of my knowledge).

[Karenina]

251. Thank you for such a thoughtful and sensitive response.

The vortex of sexism and racism is a vicious one. We've had discussions here about which is "worse". My observation is sexism negatively affects EVERY FEMALE on this planet whereas some are personally spared the ravages of racism and indeed embrace it.

What you have written is comprehensive and comprehensible. That you've considered these issues from the POV of walking in the other one's moccasins is readily apparent. Your observations are astute and on quite solid ground, imho.

Speaking of religion and societal cohesion, I've always been fascinated by the Indian caste system. In it, I believe we see the ancient progenitor of our current model. :tinfoilhat: What has afforded me the opportunity to discuss it with those who grew up in the system is an adherence to 2 rules: Rarely make statements. Ask a LOT OF QUESTIONS.

As far as better or worse elsewhere, I am content to live elsewhere having again, the good fortune to have had the opportunity to resettle. There's racism here but it has a different quality to it and if I call it out I'm rarely dismissed out-of-hand. Also, my lighter toned siblings in spirit will call it when they see it rendering my instinct to react moot. ALSO, we can TALK ABOUT IT fairly easily, they not possessing the American defensiveness. It's so much about the willingness to make connexions.

May I also report to you that the most devastating racism I have experienced here in Italy's northernmost enclave ;-) has been at the hands of fellow Ami expats.

[Tartiflette]

254. Italy? Cool!

We're probably under two hours apart, by car: I live in Aix-les-Bains, near Grenoble and Annecy, at the base of the Alps (we're only here for a year though). France has a bad reputation among anglophones, but the people here are among the friendliest I have ever met, and I love it here. It's a lilly-white town though, and my French is non-existent, so it's hard to make a judgment call on racism here, although I recall an American student studying in Grenoble (posting on DU) that he thought the racism was worse than at home.

Regarding sexism vs racism - there are plenty on DU who know far far more about this than I do, but it seems to me that racism is more "learned" than sexism, and if one looks around at kindergarten playgrounds, that would appear to be supported. Boys and girls seem to divide up fairly quickly, but certainly in my experience, there is no division based on race until an older age. I tend to buy into the fact that men (as a group) are on some level scared of women, whether it be their sexuality (a common enough theory), the need to separate themselves from maternal control and the residual feelings associated with having been under that control, or whether it arises from intimidation at an early age (as girls mature more quickly, this may lead to deep-seated feelings of inadequacy that express themselves later in life). There are any number of possible reasons, of course, and those three just cam quickly to mind. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this.

The idea of the caste model as progenitor is interesting, and novel to me. I don't have enough history to comment, but again, would be grateful if you would expand on your thoughts, particularly as to how/why it would have been exported as a model.

[Karenina]

255. Babies make no value judgements on the skin colour

of the the ones who feed, care for, play with or interest them for whatever reason.

From the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical, South Pacific:

"You've Got to Be Carefully Taught"

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

On the topic of religion and societal structures, you may find this interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXRlBLXhtHU&feature=related

[ColbertWatcher]

250. Dr. Colbert did it last night.

And with tarantulas crawling all over him!

Let's see you top his bravery!

(pics coming soon)

[Karenina]

256. SO MANY COWARDS ON DISPLAY!

I am MOST disappointed in our OP.

[Raineyb]

257. I wish I could say that I'm surprised.

But unfortunately, as it so happens I'm not.

Kicking to see if maybe someone will pick up on it again.

Regards

[Starry Messenger]

258. Hi Raineyb,

My .02. :) I think a lot of these conversations would go better if more people were properly taught the concept of white privilege. I wish it could be taught very early in grade school. I'm sure parents would be up in arms about it though.

I'm surprised at the tone a lot of the threads take here. Do people not understand the concept of institutional racism? Do white people think that "white privilege" means that some white people got bigger allowances from their parents or extra candy sprinkles on their ice cream? And that since they got none of those things that they are not part of white privilege?

Those were some thoughts I had reviewing this thread again. I don't know if you and some of the other posters here might be interested in doing a series of threads on issues around these subjects, like the "Poverty in American" series here in January in GD. Some stand-alone essays that go through the basics? Just thinking "out loud", as it were. I like to read the posts in the AA forum, but I'm not sure everyone thinks to read through other groups sometimes.

[Evoman]

259. Ha....Honest. Right.

You want honest? Let's get honest.

Honest threads about race are always the same fucking thing....white people trying to bring up ways, cautiously, to bring attention to the fact that they suffer soooo much from reverse racism. They want give and take...but they never really want to take. They want to ponder what's wrong with black culture, gangster culture. The want to know why non-white are angry, but when you tell them, they put on their hurt face and say, "We're not all like that." Then they partition their mind, and in the next thread they are talking about illegal immigration and how their kids shouldn't have to learn spanish, how hip hop is misogynist, and how indians are taking all their jobs. To white people, racism is a topic. The non-whites, it's life.

I remember a thread on DU where white people had the audacity to talk about black culture and where it's gone wrong. I thought to myself...fuck, this is stupid. And I started a tongue in cheek post lambasting white culture...how white people are obsessed with money and how horrible they are for moving away from their family for a couple more bucks in another city. How terrible it that white culture is dedicated to the pursuit of money at the costs of love ones. Not that I meant any of it...but sufficed to say, white people, in the same thread, didn't much like being painted with a broad bush even if they were doing the same shit themselves.

Frankly, I'm exhausted with white people who want to have honest discussions about race. You want to know why? Because they never say what they really want to say. I'm latino....except, unless you look carefully, I look as white as can be. I fit right in. I've heard more times than I can count what REAL honest white people think about race. What they think when my darker brother is not around. What they think when my family is not around. What they think when my people are not around. What they think when they assume I am one of them. And brother, if fucking ain't what they say in these "honest" threads.