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Eric Holder should be careful what he wishes for (the "nation of cowards" remark)

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 02:56 PM
Original message
Eric Holder should be careful what he wishes for (the "nation of cowards" remark)
Edited on Sun Feb-22-09 03:04 PM by bluestateguy
He says that we need more frankness on the subject of race. Some people, however, may take that the wrong way. Some white people hold racist views, yet they understand that it is not socially acceptable to express those feelings explicitly, or to use racial slurs: doing so today can cost you a job, or your social reputation.

So when they hear Holder call for more frankness on race, these people may only hear that they are free to bump their gums with racist rhetoric once again ("Oh, it's OK to use the N-word again. I mean, the AG wanted more frankness on race, so let's give it to him."
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. The only people who take it the wrong way are white "reverse racism" whiners...
Edited on Sun Feb-22-09 02:59 PM by BlooInBloo
Unfortunately, they're the majority of the population.


EDIT: And they take it the wrong way *on purpose*.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Thankfully they were voted out of the WH
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. You got that right.
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Ocracoker16 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. It is kind of ironic that those that got upset...
are the kind of people Holder was referring to.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. well, it certainly raises the threshold bar of courage when he comes to his job
Let's hope Eric Holder can not only be a profile in courage with respect to Race, but also with respect to Justice in general...for ALL of the citizens of the United States. We have had eight years of Justice Dept priorities fixated on a partisan view of Justice -- Bush League Justice.

If we are a nation of cowards, then a little leadership in the Justice Dept. could go a long way, but how many more times will Eric Holder fold on Bush Era crimes, while giving grandiose speeches about cowardice.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. grandiose?
amazing...........

I shouldn't be surprised.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. well, in comparison to a 5 word retort....'grandiose' may not fit, but wordchoice may be relative
"....By creating what will admittedly be, at first, artificial opportunities to engage one another we can hasten the day when the dream of individual, character based, acceptance can actually be realized. To respect one another we must have a basic understanding of one another. And so we should use events such as this to not only learn more about the facts of black history but also to learn more about each other. This will be, at first, a process that is both awkward and painful but the rewards are potentially great. The alternative is to allow to continue the polite, restrained mixing that now passes as meaningful interaction but that accomplishes little. Imagine if you will situations where people- regardless of their skin color- could confront racial issues freely and without fear. The potential of this country, that is becoming increasingly diverse, would be greatly enhanced. I fear however, that we are taking steps that, rather than advancing us as a nation are actually dividing us even further...."

What is your word for these character based artifical opporutnities?? School me with your words of wisdom and....surprise.

While critizing the actual steps already taken, this is the STEP that the new AG has chosen for himself to take in the aftermath of Gonzo and Mukasey. And just after this nation's most historic election, Mr. Holder opens the dialogue with artificial opportunities and labeling America a nation of cowards. Fluff...does that word suit ya? In comparison to the actual substance of an actual election, and actual laws broken and overlooked by the Bush Administration, where do Holder's words stand -- how would you more accurately describe them?

This was a prepare speech where Holder went on and on and on and on to substantiate America's cowardice --- what the country needs is not more artificial rhetoric from the Justice Department, Gonzo and Mukasey fed us a lion share of rhetoric. The Justice Dept. needs leadership, so again, I hope Mr. Holder's Justice Dept. can meet the high threshold of courage that he has set for himself and the nation.

But, you may be right....grandiose is probably way WAY WAY WAY over the top.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. To quote our resident bloo snapping turtle,
FACEPALM...
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. more high quality rhetoric?
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Obviously I don't think it's grandiose
That should be obvious. I agree with everything he said and find no fault with his words. We do need those conversations. The fact that so many white people are getting so upset by the word coward and dismissing everything else he says makes his point. It's easier to get upset over what I consider a faux outrage, stomp your feet and leave the room(the discussion). That's what I feel is cowardly.

I do feel that we are dividing ourselves further because many people feel that since we have an African American president that we have overcome all issues regarding race. It's just beginning but many feel the conversation is over be of Barack Obama. This is a mistake.

What Holder said was "In manners of race, we are a nation of cowards". On racial issues I do feel that we are a nation of cowards. What's ironic is that most white people felt he was talking about them and many blacks understood that it meant all of us.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No faux outrage, no stomping of feet, and still engaging you in conversation
Edited on Wed Feb-25-09 03:21 PM by Supersedeas
Maybe, you find no fault with any of Mr. Holders words. Maybe, you think that labeling the entire county a "nation of cowards" was THE most appropriate word choice and the most timely rhetoric that the People's Attorney could use in the wake of the most historic election in this nations history. You obviously like Mr. Holder's rhetoric -- so enjoy.

Others will simply disagree with the timing, tone and vagaries underlying his rhetoric. For those who voice disagreement, disagreement alone does not make them some kind of foot-stomping, inarticulate white person unwilling to engage in conversation requiring them to leave the room since they are so obviously full of faux outrage. Disagreement with Mr. Holder's rhetoric also doesn't mean that they disagree with all of the major points that Mr. Holder was trying to make. You can tell alot from the tone of peoples reaction to Mr. Holder's speech. But you can also tell alot from the tone of people who defend Mr. Holder's speech in knee-jerk ways. Word choice can be revealing.

I'm not suggesting that Mr. Holder apologize for calling us a nation of cowards. But, if he is going to use that kind of incendiary rhetoric, he'd better be able to back that up with some substance and some courage of his own.

There are those who have the courage to disagree with his rhetoric. Here is what Harry Jackson, Jr. had to say:

"Perhaps it was wishful thinking for me to believe that Holder would have set a tone of celebration that would motivate people to take more groundbreaking steps concerning placing African Americans in critical roles in the nation. Holder resembled a specialist that had rushed out of the dusty back rooms of the legal world to deliver a book report instead of the manifesto it could have been. Filled with pride of learning, he forgot to be a statesman. I hope he will analyze his mistake and avoid 'hoof and mouth disease' in the future."

John McWhorter had the courage to disagree with Holder's speech, so what does that make him...another loony toon full of faux outrage:
"I suspect those who call for this "conversation" know the claim has become more gestural than concrete. Otherwise, they would state their case directly rather than asking to "talk.""

Isn't that what courageous attorneys do...state their case directly.

The essential question is about the lack of specifics in the Holder speech over and above the more grandious/gestural rhetoric about the United States being ESSENTIALLY a nation of cowards. Why are we essentially cowards?

Holder concedes the reality of electing an African American President.
Holder concedes that we have done a pretty good job in melding races in the workplace.
Holder concedes that during work hours and shortly thereafter, we socialize with one another fairly well, irrespective of race.

Yet, ESSENTIALLY, we are a nation of cowards. Why?
1. Because when we talk, certain subjects regarding race are off limits, and
2. On Saturdays and Sundays, America looks like it did fifty years ago.

Holder suggests that the Justice Department has a special responsibility here. What are these off limit subjects that the Justice Department must confront? Are there any specifics to put on the bare bone subjects that remain off limits? What specific subjects are so germane that it gives rise to labeling us a nation of coward?

Mr. Holder does mention affirmative action and the need for a legitimate debate (hardly an issue people are afraid to talk about).
Mr. Holder does mention inner city crime in the broader context of the need to understand Black History and the civil rights movement (again, hardly off-limits -- and the connection to Black History is tenuous at best).

But, whereever Mr. Holder was going with those two subjects, and any of the other off-limit issues which he fails to specify, (those issues that make us cowards are not delineated with any clarity), it doesn't seem to lead anywhere in his speech.

Eric Holder is the Nation's Top Attorney, the Attorney General. The selective use of words goes with the particular occupation and especially at that level where the Attorney speaks for the Department of Justice for the entire Federal government.

Still Eric Holder was appointed with high hopes from many of us. But, he wasn't alone.

When a Federal Judge was appointed to replace Albert Gonzolez, there were high hopes that Michael Mukasey would have the courage to enforce the rule of law. Instead, the nation had to endure another attorney general, full of lofty rhetoric, but who adhered to political expediency in order to appease partisan/factional interests.

It is within the context of his predecessors that we should judge Mr. Holder's wordchoice here:

Mr. Holder's use of lofty rhetoric provides a perfect opportunity...to focus like a laser beam on the ACTIONS of the new attorney general who has been given the authority to enforce the law in places where it might not be comfortable politically.

If Mr. Holder is going to use his high position to lecture us about being a nation of cowards, he'd better be able to back it up when it comes to his duties over and above his obligation to give lofty speeches devoid of specifics.

Contrary to the cautionary note extended in Mr. Holder's speech, "We still speak too much of "them" and not "us"," it is much easier to categorize those who disagree (as one of "them" foot-stomping, white folks full of faux outrage) rather than confront the specifics examples of courage and cowardice head-on.

Mr. Holder has set the bar of courage pretty high by labeling us all as essentially a nation of cowards, lets see how his actions as Attorney General measure up to his faultless rhetoric.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. Y'know what? I hope it happens
Get all that shit out in the open, including its consequences.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. If anyone wants to use the "n" word...go ahead
Frankness on race doesn't mean that bigots can now feel free to show their true colors. How you came to that conclusion is puzzling.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It does if it means we can be equally unsubtle calling 'em out about it (nt)
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