I don't know about you, but I'm proud to be "far left"!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

especially if the alternative is "just continue a milder form of the Republicans' policies and compromise with them at every turn, no matter who gets hurt."

Who's with me on this?

[Mari333]

1. I am. nt

[byeya]

162. Count me as among those present. When asked I say leftist.eom

[HowHasItComeToThis]

198. I WAS A CENTRIST TIL THE REPUBLICANS BECAME INSANE

NOW I CONSIDER MYSELF ON THE LEFT
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[JDPriestly]

244. I still consider myself middle-of-the road, pragmatic, just

sensible.

[DireStrike]

2. Nobody with any power at all

Is with us.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Sad but true

We have some spokespersons in Congress, but the media either ridicule or ignore them.

[livetohike]

3. Me too

:toast:

[stevedeshazer]

4. I'm with you

As Jim Hightower says, "The middle of the road is for yellow lines and dead armadillos. "

:)

[cutlassmama]

5. I am. nt

[BulletproofLandshark]

6. Count me in.

Compromising with fascists is what got us where we are today. I don't believe in playing pattycake with people who would just as soon watch the country burn as try to pass legislation that actually helps anyone.

[Individualist]

7. I am!

[TahitiNut]

8. Hell... I won't even badmouth Nader, you "centrist."

:dunce:

[Wapsie B]

9. I am too.

Enough of these failed gop policies that got us into this mess. Those "adults in charge" were really like kids in a candy store, stripping regulations and raiding the Treasury. Time for the real leaders to clean things up.

[Aristus]

10. Shoot. I'm so far to the left, I'm about to fall OFF!

B-)

[bvar22]

11. K&R while raising my hand.

I don't care what label someone wants to stick on me.

I am a tireless advocate for PEACE.

I am a tireless advocate for Civil Rights and Equal Protections for ALL....no exceptions.

I am a tireless advocate for Single Payer Universal HealthCare.

I am a tireless advocate for FREE Universal Education at ALL levels.

I am a tireless advocate for Rule of Law, no exceptions for the Elite Class.

I am a tireless advocate for The Constitution.

I am a tireless advocate for The Poor and the Disenfranchised.

I am a tireless advocate for Working Americans and Organized LABOR.

I am a tireless opponent of the MIC.

I am a tireless opponent to the concentration of Wealth & Power into fewer hands.

I am a tireless opponent to Corporate/Republican Influence INSIDE the Democratic Party.


It matters very little to me which political personality occupies the White House.
When they move TOWARD those goals, I will support and applaud them.
When they move AWAY from those goals, I will OPPOSE.

[defendandprotect]

52. End Drug War . . . and I'm with you -- !!

[Laelth]

62. Hear, hear!

:dem:

-Laelth

[FiveGoodMen]

70. I couldn't have said it better!

:applause: :headbang: :bounce: :toast:

[leftstreet]

102. This says it all

It matters very little to me which political personality occupies the White House.
When they move TOWARD those goals, I will support and applaud them.
When they move AWAY from those goals, I will OPPOSE.

:applause:

[glitch]

136. Well said, agree completely (except for the tireless part, I do get tired)

and I'd add advocate for the environment. :applause:

[Terry in Austin]

150. Not a commie

I always resented being called a communist, because they are 'way too conservative for me!

[tavalon]

201. I'm a Democratic Socialist

I think that might just put me out in the left field, way out in left field.

[CrispyQ]

161. Agree 100%.

Great list!

:thumbsup:

[Maat]

208. I agree!

(All of my behavior will be legal, of course, Agent Mike.)

I, too, am a Democratic Socialist.

:patriot:

[eridani]

213. Yep. That says it all for me

Except I'd add NO to the War on Some Drugs.

[Two Americas]

251. count me in

Thanks bvar22.

[tomp]

259. beautiful. we're on the same team. nt

[bread_and_roses]

283. Right On! AND end the criminally insane "drug war" too

Though I admit to sometimes not being quite tireless, but then, I've been at this for longer than most on this board - thank the goddess for the young 'uns who come along and help keep the energy up!

[Demoiselle]

318. Check, check, check, check........

....Throw in tireless defender of the natural environment, tireless defender of a woman's right to choose, and tireless advocate of a graduated tax system that asks the richest among us to carry their full share of our national burdens, and you got me completely. Awww, you had me at hello, anyway.

[RaleighNCDUer]

326. I'm with you on all those -

but I'm REAL tired.

[Cerridwen]

12. I'm pretty sure most know I'm "over here," too.

The idea that we can prop-up and perpetuate the status quo, "that which is," will somehow result in a different outcome, is, I believe, a definition of "insanity."

[Solly Mack]

15. Which is why - at least a big part of - I like you so much!

:)


K&R

[Cerridwen]

49. Yes! Me, too...you!

:D

:hug:

[laylah]

13. ditto! nt

[progressoid]

14. If Bill O'really thinks he's a moderate,

I guess that happily makes me waaaaaay far left.

[Buck Laser]

21. I hear that from so many hard right wingers on political forums.

They may be unapologetic fascists, yet they insist that they are just "moderates." I wonder if that happened to them in the womb, or is it just terminal stupidity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. The other meaning of "moderate" is

"I know nothing about politics and don't really care to learn, but 'moderate' sounds better than 'willfully ignorant.'"

[RaleighNCDUer]

328. He thinks he qualifies as a moderate

by refusing to wear his armband in public.

[Systematic Chaos]

16. Count me in!

I'm further in the bottom left quadrant than the Dalai Lama or Gandhi on that political spectrum test.

[Gregorian]

17. The position of intelligence, empathy, flexibility.

Not to be morbid, but why else do the conservative nuts like Pol Pot and the rest kill off the intelligent people. Because they are good. Left is good. Right is bad. I further apologize for being binary. But to a large extent it's just that simple. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[devilgrrl]

18. I'm with you!

:thumbsup:

[fascisthunter]

19. I'm with ya

ignore the right leaning dweebs.

[Occam Bandage]

20. Good for you. Does that mean you'll stop pretending like your positions are mainstream,

and therefore you'll stop pretending that there would not be a political disadvantage to enacting them?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. OK, so you're not far left.

I could have told you that.

Next.

[Occam Bandage]

34. No, I fully recognize that many of my positions are indeed far left.

However, I think an important part of recognizing that you are on the far left is also recognizing that you are not in the mainstream, and everything that goes with that. You can't proudly say "I am on the far left" one moment, and then turn around and say "Why aren't the Dems enacting everything I want; they must be sellouts who don't respond to public will" the next.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. We're not mainstream ONLY because the right-wing controls the media in this country

and because most of our legislators are bought and paid for by lobbyists.

If the "far left" doesn't exert pressure, this will never change.

[MadBadger]

38. So you are saying pacifism is not the norm because of the RW media?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. There's a difference between pacifism and not falling for whatever

war propaganda the powers-that-be push for.

Now get off this thread, which is meant to be a roll call for people are genuinely far left.

[Occam Bandage]

48. As long as you recognize that most people don't hold your positions, and that therefore

you should not act outraged when politicians decide to follow the will of the people instead of the will of the fringe, great. Pressure away, for the cause is just. All I ask is that you not make bogus vox-populi arguments in favor of the cause.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. The will of the people, Puh-leeze!

I find it striking that even though mainstream newspapers always color within the prescribed ideological lines of discourse, the readers' responses, both left and right, show that no one is buying the conventional wisdom. Both left and right are angry and skeptical, although for different reasons.

Now, as I said to Mad Badger, this is a roll call thread for real "far left" people.

[Occam Bandage]

53. I'm not understanding your point here. Are you suggesting that popular opinion is with you?

If that is the case, then you are not far left, you are mainstream.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. I'm suggesting that "reality" as defined by the wealthy people who

own the mass media and fund the lobbyists is not "reality" as seen by ordinary people.

However, the constant barrage of right-wing propaganda, the spectre of bought-and-paid-for legislators, and the lack of a real "commons" in most American communities, makes people BELIEVE that they're just one crazy person for thinking differently.

I've been in several situations in which ordinary people were surprised to find that others opposed this or that war, didn't trust voting machines, wanted to hear about candidates other than the ones promoted in the MSM, wanted universal health care, or thought the minimum wage was too low. They just assumed that whatever was said on TV was mainstream opinion. (And the powers that be LOVE it that way.)

[Occam Bandage]

60. Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Your claim is that you are actually in the political mainstream, but that the media pretends you are far left, and so you think a good way to counter the false perception that you are far left is to start a thread in which you wholeheartedly endorse the media's labeling of you as far left.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Note that I put "far left" in quotation marks

Now, if you don't agree with bvar22's positions as stated in this thread, then I wonder what you're doing here other than being contrary.

As I said, this is a roll call thread for people who identify themselves with positions that naysayers snidely refer to a "far left."

[Occam Bandage]

67. If your claim is that you're not far left at all, you might want to reconsider

the wording. Many people in this thread seem to be agreeing with you without your scare quotes, so you may want to clarify that you are not actually far left at all. I also would ask you what you meant by telling me that I was not far left sans quotes, because if you are not far left, why would you think that was worth mentioning?

Edit to be clear: It's all about strategy. We shouldn't be positioning ourselves as far left; we should be proudly saying, "I am in the mainstream. People want our policies."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. I was right in my original estimation of your purpose in being on this thread

Now I'm going to respond to some of the sincere people.

[Occam Bandage]

91. Let me be clear and explicit.

Positioning our very good, very popular ideas as being in the ideological fringe is a bad idea. Attacking people who deviate from those ideas as being centrist (or, that is to say, mainstream) is a bad idea. Saying "you are not far left" as a way of attacking someone's opinion is a bad idea.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to cede the center to the opposition. Any time you agree that you are "far left," you agree that the opposition is to the center. I'm reminded of the Russian revolutionary split, in which one faction took the name "Bolshevik," meaning "Majority," and as a response the other faction in an act of absolute idiocy decided to proudly adopt the name "Menshevik," meaning "Minority." It is little wonder that the radical, extremist Bolshevik faction ended up actually becoming the mainstream, and that the pragmatic, moderate Menshevik faction ended up living up to their name as well.

We are not far left. Saying proudly "I am far left" may feel good, as it always feels good to own and repurpose any criticism of you, but it is absolutely and completely foolish. It's not standing up to the RW's labeling of you, it's acceptance of the RW's labeling of you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. I know exactly what you're doing

I've seen it all before in my eight years on this board.

[Occam Bandage]

107. And I know what you're doing:

Ignoring arguments you don't like by baselessly attributing motives to them, using as your evidence the fact that you have baselessly attributed similar motives to similar arguments you found yourself unable to address head-on.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

110. Yeah, whatever

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

115. Yeah, just like that.

Nicely illustrated.

How will you ever be able to get things done if you can't discuss things with people you don't agree with? Force them through?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

118. You guys are the ones who started arguing

I am under no obligation to respond.

[LittleClarkie]

119. We merely expressed our disagreement

and you are responding. Repeatedly. Just not with much substance aside from "Yea us!"

And you're the one who thought you could have a private discussion with only those who agreed with you on a PUBLIC forum.

[MadBadger]

121. But you keep on doing it anyway

[Vincardog]

160. come on Lydia why can't you buy into their false assertions that "IF you are Far Left

you concede that the opposition is mainstream"?. I personally admit no such thing.
The opposition is the Radical Reich.
The Corporate Controlled Media likes to portray them as "centrist".
And they do have a lot of recent posters on this board working hard at pushing the "right center" BS.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

174. I guess I just have too much life experience

:-)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

203. Hmmm....

I was thinking that I have too much life experience to be able to adhere, anymore, to the extreme in either direction.

[Two Americas]

189. yes

And the extreme right has managed to drive the people, through lies and fear, into an appearance that the public supports the extreme right wing. Here, we have people working night and day in an aggressive and relentless effort at breaking up any chance of consensus and solidarity forming here, so that we can never offer the public an alternative narrative. This thread is great I think, because we can see that effort in action so clearly. A small handful of members - ever alert, and armed with every conservative talking point in the book and every smear of the left and red-baiting rhetorical trick - is able to dominate and disrupt every discussion, spreading fear and confusion.

"But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them."

FDR
June 27, 1936
"A Rendezvous With Destiny"
http://www2.austincc.edu/lpatrick/his2341/fdr36acceptancespeech.htm

[Political Heretic]

227. Frankly I reject the binary cateogrization

Left/Right

Not that I don't think we could come to consensus about what "Far left" would mean or something. I just feel, the more I experience, that some of these long discussion threads about the labels themselves are almost more trouble than they are worth.

I want poverty and income disparity to be made priority number one in this country.
I want a government that works for the majority of Americans, working hardest for those with the least and working least for those with the most.
I want a government that comes home from around the world.
I want a government that disarms.

I don't expect to instantly get everything I want.
I don't reject a political representative, leader, or party the moment they fail to instantly give me everything I want.
I have priorities when it comes to the things that I want.

YOU can feel free to label me whatever you like.

[Two Americas]

252. ok, I will label you

A nice guy, very bright, with a lot to offer.

[Political Heretic]

253. Wait... so I belong to your group then?

:)

Hey TA - I posted in the wrong place, clicking on your response then meaning to post to the OP... but it seems to have worked out just fine in the end. :hi:

[Two Americas]

262. we are cool

Thanks PH.

[TBF]

290. I don't much care for labels -

But certainly you are much further left than the war mongerers checking into this thread, we know that. :)

[Two Americas]

338. what about COOL?

Country of origin labeling on produce is good, yes? lol

[Two Americas]

337. oh lay the hell off of the good DU member, would you?

Your questions here have all been answered dozens of times in the past. I have answered them myself several times in recent memory. When I do, that is the end of the discussion with you and you disappear. Then you are back in a few days repeating the same questions and badgering another member.

If you want to have yet another discussion about this, I am right here and I am always ready and willing. I don't run away from threads, and I am not trying to win.

Disagreeing is one thing, and I respect people who disagree with me. But this guerrilla warfare - badgering and pestering people and playing games, trying to "win" a crossfire talking points debate and trying to trip up, embarrass or ridicule other members is destructive to the discussion and harms all of the members.

[bvar22]

234. You're WAY off.

Here is the American Mainstream:

In recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

8. Over 63% oppose the War on the Iraqi People.

9. 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

These polls were taken in 2005.
The "mainstream" has moved even further to the Left in the last 3 years.

[Two Americas]

261. thanks

It is amazing that Democrats keep promoting this myth that the people are conservative. It is the Democrats promoting that idea who are the conservatives - I think they are becoming the most stubbornly and aggressively conservative people in the country.

[Occam Bandage]

Um, right. We're mainstream. That's my goddamn point. nt

[bvar22]

307. Since there are no Communists or Bolsheviks here at DU..

...the term "Far Left" is used by conservative posters at DU (fraudulently calling themselves "Centrists") to marginalize the American Mainstream Majority.

LydiaLeftcoast perfectly illustrated this point with this thread.
If you support the positions listed in my previous post, you need to reevaluate your political alignment, because they are NOT positions represented by the disingenuously mislabeled "Centrist" minority.

Why don't you quit gunning your engine and just read a while.
You're just throwing up a lot of smoke and gravel, and quite honestly making an ass out of yourself.

[RaleighNCDUer]

330. And yet, you perpetuate the myth that the left is SCARY.

The LEFT IS THE MAINSTREAM.

By accepting the RW definition of the left, you contribute to the marginalizing of the majority.

Properly, we should be saying "I am the far left - and so are YOU!"

[Two Americas]

343. it is interesting

Interesting how the conservatives will co-opt and take credit for things that came from the supposed "far Left" - "yeah, yeah, that is 'us' yep aren't we great" - and then spend all of the rest of their time trying to bash and silence the Left.

I think it is am ongoing process of co-opting and capturing and controlling the Left. It is tactical. When it looks as though the Left is going to win one, that it is inevitable, then they are quick to get out in front of the parade and claim they were in agreement all along and should get credit for it. The rest of the time they are trying to kill off all left wing ideas and thinking and discussion, and badger and attack leftists. When the leftists win, and the party or a politician takes the left wing position, then they say "see? We were right and you were wrong. You criticized the rulers but now they have done the right thing." They want us to forget that they bitterly fought against the idea before, until the rulers adopted it and it became inevitable. This has already happened several times in relationship to the new administration. It is a way to slow down, thwart, and obstruct any movement to the Left for as long as possible, but then when it is no longer possible they switch sides and use that to claim that they were never opposed to us.

[Moochy]

350. These self-(?) appointed Conservative Gatekeepers on this thread

They seem to have a shelf-life that far outlasts their behavior here.... Almost as if there was some organized support for this activity from those with the ability to curtail rules violations.

[Two Americas]

361. notice the pattern

Various talking points are tested out, usually fill of invective, and inflammatory and provocative language but little substance. Personal attack, sly insinuations of treason or disloyalty or false motives, attempts at character assassination are all common, and we are seeing more and more red-baiting now (that is a good sign as it is an indicator that things are moving to the Left.) As soon as one of us stands our ground and won't be bullied, the sub thread is abandoned. That gives us a chance to build critical mass with enough people who are interested in the discussion and will not be intimidated, and then when that happens the conservatives disappear from the thread.

All of the talking points were thoroughly demolished, dismantled and refuted. Yet tomorrow, the exact same talking points will be posted again, in the hope that members did not see them refuted before and will be sucked in by them. In other words, there is no interest whatsoever in actually having a discussion, the discussion is merely being used to advance something else, and the methods are disruption and intimidation and personal attacks. That is the methodology of the right wing propagandists - keep repeating inflammatory talking points over and over again, while feigning an interest in discussion and debate. The goal is to make things seem true rather than to discover the truth or recognize it, by traumatizing and intimidating people and then relentlessly pounding the talking points into their heads. Even if people just give up in disgust, or the meeting hall gets burned down - figuratively speaking, threads locked, flame wars started - the conservatives win, because they are not trying to persuade people to their ideas, they are trying to prevent any ideas from being considered or discussed. When people are able to consider ideas and have intelligent discussions, that is a threat to entrenched power and wealth - the system as it is, and it is the status quo the conservatives are promoting and defending.

[fascisthunter]

374. oh yes...

[Two Americas]

339. "we?"

You relentlessly argue with anyone and everyone who expresses left wing points of view here. You portray them as "fringe."

[pam4water]

323. I saw some of those polls reported on CNN. The camera man had to

walk out and close the anchors mouth after they read them. OK I made that last part up, but their mouths were dropping open.

[MadBadger]

56. If not for the Media, Far Left would be the norm

Thats what she's saying.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. The media and the isolated nature of American suburban life

http://www.newcolonist.com/rr11.html

This is a huge factor, since suburbanites are the largest percentage of the American population.

[LittleClarkie]

85. Then get your own forum if you don't want to be disturbed.

You can't declare an open thread on an open discussion board off limits to people who disagree with you, not without being sorely disappointed, anyway.

[Two Americas]

263. yes!

America, love it or leave it!

If you don't like the way I am behaving, then go get your own country!

I can do whatever I like, and you can't say a thing, because that would be suppressing my free speech! Which is why I am trying to suppress yours!

It is a free country! That means the biggest bully wins, and if you don't quit your crying I'll give you something to really cry about!

Guess I showed those far left lunatics a thing or two. Let's see them respond to THAT logic. Hah! Losers and whiners and purists.

[LittleClarkie]

317. Well, actually, you seem to have misinterpreted what I was saying

and done a spectacular job of putting words in my mouth on top of it.

A thread was posted. Someone commented who disagree with the OP. The OP said essentially that the thread is only for those who agree with me. To which I replied that if the OP thought that she could post a thread in an open forum and expect only those who agree with her to reply, then she'd be disappointed. If that's what she wanted, then to get it she'd have to create her own place, and populate it only with those she agreed with. Otherwise folks are gonna pipe up. God knows it's happened enough to me when I and my fellow Kerry supporters tried to have a positive thread about the guy. I may have been disappointed, but I never told anyone to get off the thread.

To be clear, she has a perfect right to post a thread and say anything she likes. I have a right to comment any which way I please. She could be disappointed in that reaction, but there is not a thing she can do to stop it if I'm being civil. And that is as it should be on an open forum.

I fail to see how I was trying to take her free speech away. In fact, it could be argued that the opposite is what was going on.

Now you can either accept that answer, or put more words in my mouth again so that you can have something to argue against. Choice is yours.

[Two Americas]

340. not true

Creating uproars in threads with off-topic and provocative posts is the prime way that discussions are thwarted, and that is the main way that people attempt to suppress freedom of speech - that is, the freedom to talk to one another without someone screaming and distracting people and throwing in rhetorical hand grenades to upset people.

The OP said "I am proud to be far left and who is with me?" Posting "I am not with you and here is what is wrong with you" is off topic. You are free to post, and we are free to say you are being a pain in the neck and are not contributing to the discussion in any constructive way and are trying to distract people and inflame passions.

There are plenty of threads for bashing the leftists, and I look forward to debating with you in those threads.

The OP has no power to get you off the thread. You, on the other hand, do have the power to create a distracting uproar.

[byeya]

164. Fact: In Europe, most unemployed people live better

than those with jobs here in the USA.

[ElboRuum]

306. Now that's just plain incorrect.

You presume a fact not in evidence. There is nothing to suggest that even if, say, the "far left", controlled the media in this country that being "far left" would be mainstream. The mainstream may be more left, which I could easily agree with, but the continuum of political viewpoints and the number of people "not far left" would largely prevent mainstream from being much more than "moderately left of center".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. You're Just Making Way Too Much Sense Now.

How dare you attempt to derail this thread with intellect.

[Name removed]

237. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[denim_kittens]

239. Ouch

That's gonna leave a mark!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

240. Ummmmm, You're Like Wayyyyyyy Out There.

Climate change isn't a big deal? Not sure what fantasy land you were in to claim I said that. There is no recession? Again, were you tripping at the time? I haven't ever come close to saying either of those things.

As far as being wrong; no. I'm rarely wrong and most often straight on my in logic, and throwing in the face of those who have no sign of objectivity or critical thinking skills. Course, it's no surprise to me that they'd resent me for it; but I wear that badge of honor proudly.

Call me stupid all you want. But it is me on the higher level looking down on you and your limited perception, and laughing my friggin ass off.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

245. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Two Americas]

183. "positions" are not "left"

That is the buffet table personal choice model of politics, created by the right wing and relentlessly promoted by the mass media.

This business of people thinking that they have "some positions" that are "left" within am unexamined context of right wing assumptions and premises, and a strong identification with power and wealth and authority, is the very method by which the left is marginalized and made powerless.

By turning politics into an individualized effort, made up of a grab bag of "positions" on "issues," and then the placement of those positions on one side or the other of this phony "liberal" and "conservative" spectrum, the right wingers are able to steadily push the entire political context far to the right, and then characterize any and all even mildly left wing opinions as "not mainstream."

I know of no one saying "why aren't the Dems enacting everything I want; they must be sellouts who don't respond to public will" and I do jot think that anyone who is even remotely sympathetic to anything that could be called left wing would ever promote that right wing smear of the left.

To be on the left means well knowing exactly why the Democrats are doing what they are doing - because they are catering and pandering to the few, to the wealthy and powerful, and are caving to the right wing. It means knowing that the public is being lied to and manipulated and driven by fear. That is all that is being measured by polls that show the public to be "center-right." It is all a lie. I cannot imagine anyone being on the left and denying that, since all left wing politics would then by necessity collapse and be untenable.

Being on the Left means being in the side of the people.

There is no such thing as a Left that is at odds with the general public. That is all a right wing lie. They work night and day to convince people that the Left does nit represent the best interests of all of the people. Gee, I wonder why that would be? If you want an answer to that question, ask a leftist.

Being on the Left means being on the side of the people. fighting for the best interests of the people. That is all that it means. The people are unaware of that because they are bombarded by fear campaigns, and because we are sabotaged by the conservatives among us and can not build consensus and solidarity in order to get a clear message out to the public. This thread is a perfect example of that effort in action in real time.

No leftist, even the mildest and most moderate of leftists, would ever accept that the public opinions as defined and reported by the right wing media, is anything but a relentless attempt at creating a false view of the public in people's minds.

How could a person be on the left and not know that relentless promotion of wedge issues and right wing themes has distorted and corrupted public opinion, and has confused and alienated people?

When Pew Research did a survey of people's stands on issues of power and economics - which is what politics has always been about - without any hints or clues as to which answers were "liberal and which were "conservative," on every issue 70-80% of the people supported the so-called "far left" political solution.

[earth mom]

216. Awesome post! You said it-NO leftie would EVER accept the public opinion defined by the right wing

media-AKA liars!

It is no more evident than on this thread that is supposed to be for all of us far lefties-to see certain relentless posters trying to push those lies down all our throats when we all know the REAL TRUTH and that all they are peddling is right wing bullshit.

Makes you wonder just who the hell they are working for. :puke:

[Moochy]

226. Wondering like that is hazardous to your DU health

relentless posters suck.

[tomp]

260. i firmly believe the "center" is much farther to the left than most realize.

it's the power that is rightward and not because of numbers of votes for one party or the other.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

293. Yes, tell any random group of strangers that corporations are too big and powerful

and that the system is slanted against the ordinary person, and you will get widespread agreement.

Everyone has a corporation horror story.

Everyone has a health care horror story.

Everyone realizes that there is something deeply wrong with the way this society has developed.

[tomp]

300. yes and the point is that our leaders are to the the right of the people. nt

[LittleClarkie]

80. Or that they have a ghost's chance in hell of GETTING enacted?

God forbid anything actually get done.

I swear this is Lefty Freeperville.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if it weren't for impractical left radicals

everything would be peachy, and the Republicans would love us. :sarcasm:

[Binka]

267. You have a point about getting things done?

Really? YOU? That is curious.

[eridani]

214. "Political disadvantage" = "under constant attack by corporate whores" n/t

[Moochy]

228. "Good for you"

What a conversation starter! its pretty rich for you to tell people to stop pretending.

[RaleighNCDUer]

329. Their not being mainstream is no reflection on the efficacy of the

far left positions.

It just means they are ahead of the curve and the rest of the world is still catching up.

Slowpoke.

[oldtime dfl_er]

23. I am

I am a proud FAR LEFT LIBERAL!!!

[Peace_Sells]

24. i am

I am very proud to be far left. I wear it as a badge of honor.

[barbtries]

25. bleeding heart liberal

and no apologies for it, since the day i was born. drifting if anything further to the left as i grow old.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Me, too

I was actually pretty conservative when I was young, but life experience, especially my three years as a temp worker in the 1980s, pushed me all the way to democratic socialism.

[ClayZ]

47. I have to struggle to make a right turn while driving! :-)

Any "less left" thinking seems preposterous to me. I am often flabbergasted!

Those "Political Compass" tests put me over with Gandhi.


http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

[barbtries]

50. yeah, me too n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. I'm even left-handed!

:-)

[Two Americas]

353. heh

I LOVE this thread! Thanks again, LL.

[laststeamtrain]

26. The Unaffiliated Far Left (UFL). The cool people. Can play well with others...

...but a lot of times won't.

Occasionally 'they' peel one of us off. It's never that great a loss.

Look for us in your future. We're not going away.

:thumbsup:

[MadBadger]

28. What makes you "Far left"?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. See bvar22's list upthread

I agree with all of it.

Besides, I've been called "far left" by the DLC contingent on this board more times than I can remember in the past 8 years.

[Xenotime]

30. As am I

I don't think this country is left enough. With all the unfairness going around we have a lot learn. Only then will we be respected.

[lunatica]

32. Without us we'd never advance even a little

One must shoot for the stars if we just want to make it off the ground at all.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. So much of what we take for granted today

an end to slavery, legal personhood for women, votes for women and people of color, wage and hours regulations, Social Security, health and safety inspections, public education--all these were "far left" ideas at one time.

[fascisthunter]

36. including the American Revolution

[Two Americas]

356. something to remember about that

The American Revolution was resistance not to the British government, but to the British Crown Corporations - which had been given franchises to run the colonies - extremely similar to the marriage of corporations, government and the military today.

There was a discussion about that when the Declaration of Independence was written, and it was decided to address the grievances to the King because that would be easier to understand for the public.

American history has been re-written by the conservatives to make the American Revolution into a rebellion against Monarchy. Not true. It was a rebellion against corporations. None of the history makes sense otherwise - the Tea Party, the Bill of Rights, the lingering but deep-seated suspicion of finance and corporations for generations. Corporations were strictly regulated in the early days, because the people well knew of the potential for abuse and oppression. Just in my life time, almost all remaining barriers to corporations have been removed, and the entire planet is now at risk as a result.

What was the problem with the corporations in the colonies? No bid contracts, corporate welfare paid for by the citizens, corruption of government by corporate agents, government-protected monopolies, corporate manipulation of the courts, extraction of all wealth out of the communities, etc. Any of that sound familiar?

[rrneck]

33. Moderates and Conservatives

in this country need to be snapped back so hard their momma'll get whiplash.

[undergroundpanther]

40. Proud to be beyond left,

Proud to be an socialist/anarchist.As left as left gets.

Anarchism is where people may find egalitarianism,support and peace they want.
Like Individualism without the malignant narcissism or social atomization or isolation that being truly different(yourself) creates for a person in our authoritarian based so called democratic nation,for instance.All in the name of control.


Sad that most of the world does not know what anarchy really is,what socialism really is.Many lack the emotional maturity to live without "leaders" telling them what they should want, think or do,or the heart to find out how to be ethical and have an INTERNAL locus of control ,not needing a command from above from a leader or god to be 'good'..

Read this, you might be an anarchist and not realize it...
Kohlberg theorized that there are six stages of moral development, with Stage One being the lowest, most basic level of moral development, and Stage Six being the highest. He also developed the idea of cognitive dissonance, whereby people operating at different levels of moral development would find communication nearly impossible.

In other words, these people were operating from completely different paradigms -- speaking different moral languages, and would not be able to bridge that gap without considerable effort.

What does this have to do with anarchism? I think it has a great deal to do with it.

When you look at the stages of moral development, what becomes apparent is that the lower stages are more authoritarian, whereas the highest stage is the most libertarian. While much attention has been paid to Kohlberg's theories, I think that inner biases of researchers have led them to overlook that, for some operating at the highest stage of moral development (Stage Six), government can only be viewed as an evil -- an affront to their moral reasoning. The history of the 20th century backs this view.
http://a4a.mahost.org/moral.html

[noiretextatique]

42. totally with you

i oppose everything the far right stands for, and i oppose those who compromise with them.

[The_Commonist]

43. Indeed!

Left is right.
Right is wrong...

[jonnyblitz]

44. you shouldn't worry about what some log cabin, left bashing

chickenhawk ASSHOLE calls you. Afghan civilians don't deserver to be blown up and bombed anymore than Iraqi civilians do. FUCK the DU warmongers.

jonnyblitz, Veteran for Peace.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Thank you.

I've often said that bombing Afghanistan to get Al Qaeda made as much sense as bombing New Jersey to get at the Mafia.

[CrispyQ]

165. I lost a couple of 'friends' because I disagreed with bombing Afghanistan.

I wish I had known your Al Qaeda/Mafia phrase back then.

[KG]

114. rat own, bro!

how's it going JB? :hi:

[defendandprotect]

45. Radical liberal here!

[blindpig]

54. I dunno, Lydia

do ya think I qualify?;-)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. You're so well informed that you could ONLY be "far left"

:-)

[G_j]

57. life-long

:thumbsup:

[closeupready]

63. Definitely a left wing liberal.

I guess in today's America, that counts as 'far left'. :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. Ignorance Is Bliss.

That's what they say right?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. Who asked you?

This is a roll call thread for self-identified leftists.

[bahrbearian]

68. I think he was referring to the Blissful Life he Leads.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. Damn, I wish we had a smilie that represented

a high five!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. You Think Lots Of Things That Aren't True.

Not surprised to see your perception so far off again this time either.

[Moochy]

230. F*cking Douchebag Sez What?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. Boo Hoo For You. Get Over It.

Ya know, public discussion thread and all?

And I'm a leftist. I'm just not a loony tune is all.

Back to your bliss! :hi:

[G_j]

86. discussion

is that what you call what you do?

:rofl:

[Forkboy]

154. "I'm just not a loony tune is all." Oh, you're a cartoon alright, don't kid yourself.

[Two Americas]

187. there it is

By redefining anything that is even remotely leftist as "loony" and then calling Republican lite "left" the left is suppressed, the country is driven to the right, and the extreme right wing ideas are effectively advanced and promoted, in a deceptive way that is hard for people to detect. Give me an out and out right winger any day - you can see where they are coming from.

Thanks for the perfect example.

No leftist would call anyone here "loony" for expressing the ideas that you relentlessly and aggressively oppose. No leftist would consistently side with power, wealth, and authority on every subject.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

241. Wrong.

Believe me... There are a majority of technical lefties that would consider the zealous and irrational extremity of some on this board to be quite loony. :hi:

[Two Americas]

254. I know

I know who you think is "loony." You rant about it all the time.

I stand by my comments.

[Name removed]

235. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

242. Relax There Uppity One.

Your ignorance on who I am, what I stand for, and how left I truly am, is astounding.

[G_j]

69. exactly, who asked you?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. Asking Wasn't Necessary. I Volunteered.

Back to your bliss now! :hi:

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

135. One of DU's greatest authorities on ignorance once again validates his credentials. n/t

:rofl:

[Moochy]

294. Mods love his brand of stupid!

[Greyhound]

310. It's almost as if he is a parody of himself.

He doesn't even see that his responses invariably make the other person's point, if would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[Name removed]

246. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

376. Speaking of ignorance... "THANK GOD IT PASSED!"

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. "Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice".

Thomas Paine


"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

[Agent William]

74. Booyaa!!

for real...

kick..........................

[TBF]

76. I just think of it as being sane.

I don't know how they can rationalize killing millions of people. If the "far left" is where the pacifists sit, than that's where I am.

[lunatica]

100. Well hiya neighbor! I sit there too!

War is the stupidest activity which must have been invented by psychopathic bullies who just needed more power just to have it. And after that everyone thought is was normal.

Fact is, if left alone 95% of humanity would live their lives in the pursuit of the betterment of their communities. If you don't believe this then explain how almost all the American soldiers who've come home from all the wars never kill again. It's a myth that war is in our genetic makeup or that mankind is warlike. That's all catapulted propaganda since the first bully decided they had to have what belonged to someone else, and then hired the first historian to write about how great he was.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. Not to mention that leaders always have to make up some bullshit reason

In World War II, the Germans were told that they needed Lebensraum "room to live in" and to fight Communism.

The Japanese were told that they were liberating Asia from Western colonialism.

In Vietnam, we were told that we were preventing Southeast Asia from going Communist.

In Grenada, we were preventing the Cubans from building an air base from which to strike the U.S. (Never mind such inconvenient facts as that 1) The air strip was for bringing in tourists, and 2) Grenada is halfway to South America, not 90 miles from Florida, like Cuba is.)

In 1991, we were "restoring freedom" to Kuwait (after an Iraqi invasion that we had tacitly approved), despite the fact that Kuwait is a dictatorship run by one, highly corrupt family, which fled to Egypt.

In Panama, we killed 200 people and destroyed a civilian neighborhood to oust General Noriega on vague and flimsy grounds, never mind that he was a former CIA asset.

And so it goes...

[TBF]

106. Heh. And always have to be the center of attention. Even when something

is not about them (like this thread) they must show up and rattle their sabers.

[whirlygigspin]

192. how true dat

I guess much depends on who controls the microphones, what what.


This is what a centrist sounds like!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU2N2NU8094


Go Lydia! :patriot:

:fistbump:

[LittleClarkie]

78. I'm not.

I'm sick of calls of "fascist" from the left and "communist" from the right, I'm sick of conspiracy theories from the left/right being plausible while conspiracy theories from the right/left are supposed to be batshit crazy. Are we just going to trade places every four to eight years, with each side in turn claiming that they are fighting for what's right in America. Or saying they must leave the country because they won't live in a fascist/socialist America. Or that the other side is full of inhuman bastards out to ruin the country.

I'm pretty much sick of all y'all. I'm looking for adults and level heads and people who can see the world with a clear eye uncolored by ideology gone wild.

So enjoy your purity test. No matter who gets hurt, you can stand on your ivory tower and beat your tits about how we are compromising with traitors and whatnot while the adults in the crowd try to actually get something done.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. If you don't agree with the principles in #11, why are you responding?

This is a roll call thread, not a debate thread.

[TBF]

84. I think the hyper ones eat a little too much meat. Just sayin...

[LittleClarkie]

96. There's too much meat eating on both sides

Red meat, that is.

I've just been alarmed at how much one side sounds like the other when the party in power is flipped.

[LittleClarkie]

87. No, this is an open thread in an open forum

and you have no control over who replies. Sucks, doesn't it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. At least you're outnumbered.

Sucks, doesn't it?

[LittleClarkie]

93. Nah. Numbers never determine if someone is right or wrong

I'm used to being in the minority. I was in the minority when Kerry lost and everyone turned on him, which didn't stop me from liking him still.

And I'd say, outside of this forum, I'm the one in the majority, not you. If this were not so, then someone like Dennis Kucinich would be President right now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. "Numbers never determine if someone is right or wrong"

You said. I didn't. :evilgrin:

[LittleClarkie]

97. Touche.

But then your claim that I was outnumbered was a pretty stupid point, wouldn't you say. Whoopie.

And you're still in an open forum. Funny as hell when people think they can say "keep outta my thread" as if that was going to stop anyone.

[RaleighNCDUer]

331. And I posit that if Kucinich looked like George Clooney instead of

a garden gnome, he WOULD be president.

[Two Americas]

357. no

He would be in a mysterious airplane accident.

[Zhade]

377. True. But you're still very wrong, very often.

NT!

[Two Americas]

255. yes

Isn't that a refreshing change?

[mitchtv]

146. Hi Lydia

count me in even though I was called a freeper the other day by one of the Swarm

[Greyhound]

108. So tell me, how have the actions and policies of your fellow "level heads"

been working out so far?

Or are we to believe that the "radical liberals" have constituted the Democratic Party for the last 50 years?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

113. Yes, all those "level-headed," "practical" Dems who let Bush get away

with anything he wanted. Yes, I know they were outnumbered, but most of them didn't even bother to register a protest vote. I wonder if they're cowardly or bought and paid for.

[EFerrari]

111. Except it's not true that we just "trade places" every 4-8 years.

When was the last time the economy was healthy under Republican control?
When was the last time a Republican took care of a major social issue?
When was the last time a Republican improved a problem in foreign relations? Maybe Nixon, maybe.

And to the extent that centrists cater to and try to echo right wing positions, they have been wrong. Deregulation, Iraq, the War on Terra, taking impeachment off the table, regurgitating right wing frames -- purity test, ivory tower, conspiracy theories. That's not pragmatic maturity, that's just politics in stentorian drag. Bad politics, too, because it just validates the right.

The left and the right are not mirror images of each other. That's not clear vision, that's just the same false equivalence made famous by Roger Ailes.

[chill_wind]

209. !! :-)

"That's not pragmatic maturity, that's just politics in stentorian drag."

Love it- that begs to be emblazoned onto a T-shirt or a bumper sticker somewhere.
An altogether great post full of the undeniable truth.

:thumbsup:

[mike_c]

82. proud leftist here....

(raises hand)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. Whoa, that is one big graphic!

:-)

[KG]

98. heh. didn't take the knaves long to show up and troll this thread did it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. No, I'm surprised it took them so long to assemble a team

:-)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

109. The proud champions of the beloved status quo in their suits of rusty armor.

[LittleClarkie]

117. So those who disagree are trolls, eh?

No, it's just a discussion board, and there's no such thing as a private discussion here.

[KG]

120. no, i called them knaves, who are trolling a thread they disagree with

[LittleClarkie]

138. Eh, as long as people are civil there's nothing wrong with a discussion

It's healthy even.

Namecalling, not so much.

[anaxarchos]

249. Is that a picture...

of young Kerry picking his nose and his ear at the same time?

[LittleClarkie]

305. Speaking of trolling...

It's a drawing based on a picture of Kerry testifying before Congress to stop the Vietnam War. Not that you likely give a shit, mind you.

[anaxarchos]

308. When you troll someone...

...who is trolling, you sorta cancel it out. Bring it back to zero, so to speak.

That was kinda the point.

"Not that you likely give a shit, mind you."

[LittleClarkie]

319. I fail to see how I was trolling.

Just disagreeing with a post on an open discussion forum. If that was not allowed I'd have been deleted by now.

[Two Americas]

360. OK

I am always ready for an in-depth and extensive discussion, and never run away from a thread.

Ready when you are.

[Two Americas]

341. funny

You mock and ridicule and provoke people continually with your ugly little humorous remarks, but you seem to have no sense of humor at all when someone makes a very mild humorous response to you.

What are you so angry about? If you have no interest in the topic of this thread - "I am proud to be a leftist and who is with me?" then why are you so obsessed with it and determined to pick fights with half of the people posting here?

[Greyhound]

101. Here we are on the American scale, the far left.

Whereas in the other parts of the world where we'd want to live, we're moderately conservative.
:crazy:, eh?

:kick: & R

[Lydia Leftcoast]

105. Exactly, Greyhound

My European friends and relatives tell me that mainstream Democrats would be center-right on the European scale, while the Republicans would be hard right. Only a few members of the Progressive Caucus (but definitely not Nancy Pelosi) would be considered even slightly over the center line in European terms.)

[EFerrari]

112. I know!

lol

[fascisthunter]

132. that's because we live in the American brand of Fascism

everything to them is fringe far left because they are so far to the right.

[Greyhound]

149. You would think that a couple of centuries would be enough time to

eliminate, or at least dilute, that Calvinistic/authoritarian mindset, wouldn't you?

[fascisthunter]

151. It's Unfortunate but as ANother Old-Time Dem Said to Me:

"It's gonna take the type of pain I and my parents had to endure for these fools who claim to be working class to wake up."

It's true... those who struggled through a depression are almost all gone and no longer around to remind Americans of what happens when there is no regulation, no union, no social saftey net, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

152. We have to overcome the right-wing brainwashing that has people

who make $30,000 a year identifying with the interests of people who make $30 million a year instead of with the interests of people who make $20,000 a year.

[chill_wind]

265. That can't be emphasized enough.

And it's a far more a characteristic of moderates and Joe the Plumbers than ever can be found on the left. 50 cent millionaires continually voting against their own self-interests.

[TBF]

347. It's that little hope they have that one day they, too, will make $30M a year.

The "American Dream" myth has been very successful in obscuring reality for quite some time.

[Greyhound]

195. Sadly true. n/t

[Odin2005]

167. IMO that is a myth derived from differences in political discourse between the US and Europe.

The European Left is historically Marxist. On the other hand, the American Left is historically much less influenced by Marxism more more influenced by liberal Christianity.

[Greyhound]

271. You've been to Europe, know a bunch of Europeans, are European? n/t

[Greyhound]

302. Didn't think so.

But thanks for the kick.

[Tartiflette]

282. Er..?

Historically Marxist? Well, Europe is hardly a single entity, and the left side of the political spectrum has arisen from different places in different countries, and was flourishing well before Marx laid out his theories. I would say that the left in some countries has flirted with Marxism, and had/has some sympathy for his theories, but there is little to suggest that a Marxist thread runs through the major left parties in any European country.

I think the comment about how far to the right your so-called center is better represents the situation. Many Republican policies match best those of the far-right in Europe, such as Austria's Heider, France's Le Pen, and the BNP. (Actually, that's a bit harsh, but somewhere between the Tories and the BNP).

[Greyhound]

303. Yeah, but what could you possibly know about European politics?

You think being European gives you some kind of authority on the European political spectrum? It's not like you're Odin or something.:sarcasm:

These guys are funny until you find out they end up making decisions that effect other people.

[Tartiflette]

365. I should tread carefully here

..since I'm not American and it would appear I'm presuming to know about American politics!

But it's got me thinking. If the republicans today are a center-right, or even moderate right wing party, then what was Nixon? And under this definition, what would a far right party look like?

[Greyhound]

372. Today, criminality and insanity aside, Nixon would be called a liberal.

The further back you step from our post WWII history, the crazier it gets. We have a Democratic party today that is to the right of the Republican party of the 70s and still claims to be "left".:crazy:

[Tartiflette]

380. That's kinda what I thought

It seems to me that provides the only answer you need concerning where the center is in American politics. As a counterpoint though, in the UK the New Labour party has also moved far to the right of the original Labour party, and this is apparently true for several other European countries, albeit perhaps not to the same degree. Right wingers would probably use this to justify a new center, but based on all available evidence, ie polling on issues rather than political parties, it appears that people in all Western nations generally share similar values (one notable exception being attitudes to guns in the US cf. external countries), and that those values generally fall to the left of both political parties in the US (and the UK, my other example).

[RaleighNCDUer]

332. LOL

That's the funniest thing I've seen on this thread.

[leftstreet]

104. Not just proud to be 'far left,' but also proud of the 'far leftists' here at DU

Not always a vocal group, but when they speak they speak volumes.

:thumbsup:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. Thank you, thank you

:-)

[roguevalley]

128. radical left. not always popular but here.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

143. The best part of not being a teenager anymore

is not having to care about popularity. :-)

[KG]

122. i'll bet it's getting close!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

124. ROFL!

:7

[rug]

123. The farther the better.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

126. Especially since we've had the fascist-leaning right for the past 28 years

It's time for a little antidote.

[Lorien]

125. You know I am!

:thumbsup:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

127. Oh yes

and a great source of kitty advice, too.

:-)

[Joanne98]

129. Me too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

141. I appreciate your contributions to Latin American topics

:-)

[GreenPartyVoter]

130. Totally!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

142. Amen!

:-)

[niyad]

131. radical, and proud of it

[leftchick]

133. I love the best analogy for Dem vs Rep you wrote last year

The cliff and mph reduction? Brilliant!


You may appreciate the bumper sticker I saw on my walk this weekend...... "If Voting Changed Anything It Would Be Illegal"!

Ha!


K&R

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. Thank you, is that the one where I compared

the Republicans to driving off a cliff at 60mph and the mainstream Democrats to driving off a cliff at 30mph?

[leftchick]

184. exactly!

I refer to it as the Thelma and Louise model, thanks to you. The repukes are fast forward, the Dems, not quite slo-mo.

:)

[TBF]

348. Emma Goldman said it - and she was a leftist. Not a liberal. n/t

[depakid]

134. Like you, I don't consider myself to be far left- just rational and informed

unlike those on this board and elsewhere who support or pander to failed Republican policies and ideology in some bizarre attempt to appear "moderate."

Rather than solving problems, you can count on a "centrist" to promote ineffective half measures or otherwise futher muck up the situation up almost every time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. They ignore the prime rule for negotiating:

Always start by asking for MORE than you would be satisfied with.

[depakid]

145. Yep- and curiously enough, that's what's causing such a row with the Oregon beer tax

Eventually, they'll settle on a fair and appropriate number that will raise needed revenue, not uduly affect in state producers or consumers, and bring Oregon in line with other states' taxes.

Seems like a childish way to have to go about making public policy, but when you're dealing with Republicans and their supporters more often than not you're dealing with a childish mentality.

[NikolaC]

139. Same Here!

[Lilith Velkor]

144. Fuckin' A!

:headbang:

[smokey nj]

147. I'm with you, Lydia!

[JFN1]

148. Checking in

n/t

[Vincardog]

153. I'm proud to be "far left"! True Dat

[Greenheron]

155. Like Flynn

In

[Forkboy]

156. You are the Democratic party far left, not really the far left.

I don't say that as an insult at all. It's just a simple fact that a far left Dem isn't nearly as far left as one can go on the political spectrum. Which makes the ones taking issue with you look even dumber. They see the far left within the party and shit twinkies. Their forehead veins must pop when confronted with someone even further left than a Democrat. ;)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

171. I actually am farther left than a Democrat

:-)

but the real Socialists and Greens are too disorganized to get anything done.

[Forkboy]

185. I think I am too.

:)

[Two Americas]

359. hope so

That isn't saying much lol. There are only about 20% of the people in the country who are not to the Left of the Democrats.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

157. Sure, after all so called centrists and right wingers got us into this fucking mess. nt

[Odin2005]

158. Define "Far Left"

I don't like the simplistic dichotomy between "left" and "right", it leads to black and white thinking one sees here every time some self-proclaimed "True Progressive" condemns those who are ideologically impure as "DLC Corporatist Whores".

Economically I am a non-Marxist Socialist who wants to see a Free Enterprise market economy based on co-ops.

I'm a social liberal who thinks the government needs to stay out of people's bedrooms, that same-sex unions should be a right, that marijuana use should be legalized, prostitution should be legalized, and the government should not spy on people without just cause. On the other hand I am quite allergic to identity politics, political correctness (I'm an Autistic, not a "person with Autism", dammit; and calling handicapped people "differently abled" is moronic), and the man-hating pseudointellectual garbage peddled in "Women's Studies" departments.

Internationally I am a Wilsonian Interventionist, which inevitably leads me to be called a "shill for Western Imperialism" by naive pacifists and by people who think The West is evil.

By temperament I am conservative and pragmatic, guided by a Kantian ethics. To be quite honest I'm a pretty prim, proper, "square" person who likes order, routine, and clear lines of authority and clearly enforced standards, but since I have Asperger's Syndrome that's not much of a surprise. I don't "get" the hippie types.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

170. Sounds fine to me

:-)

[lib2DaBone]

159. Yes.. I am Left.. and proud. I'll take on any Fundie Repuke....

I am a populist. I believe the taxpayers should prevail.. not the Bankster/Gangsters.

I am sick and tired of the Corporate controlled media telling us that Neocons and Far right Fundies are legitimate.... I call Bullshit... Referee...please throw the the BS Penalty Flag...

[quickesst]

163. Considering anything right of the far left....

...as right-wing, mild or otherwise puts one in the clear minority, and disparages the majority that lean to the left of the political spectrum. The "far left" weren't solely responsible for electing a democratic president. In fact, Obama would have been elected without them. Personally, I'm just a democrat, and proud of it. I'm with the majority. Thanks.
quickesst

[Lydia Leftcoast]

172. Most Americans have no idea what the Left actually is

because all they hear about in the media is behavioral leftism, not political-economic leftism.

I think they'd actually like the political-economic left if they knew what it was.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[byeya]

168. It's a little tough to take that criticism of Zionism

is grounds for being banned. This list would be longer, perhaps, if that were not so and everyone were still here.
I saw your "union" site name & had to respond: Longshoremen on my mother's side and IBEW & NMU on my father's. I've been union since I was 18.

[Union Yes]

176. Here's to hopin you retire a union member. =)

Unions built middle class America.

Peace

[byeya]

180. I did retire a union member and still pay my dues. Without

unions there would be very few middle wage earners - you got that right too!

[liberalsince1968]

169. I'm proud to be a far left liberal.

[Ardent15]

173. I'm not with you: extremism of any kind is dangerous

I'm left-of center, but that doesn't mean I'm "far left."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

175. Most people referred to as "far left" on this board are actually left of center

There's a certain claque here that thinks of anyone who is left of Obama is "far left." If they only knew.

[Ardent15]

177. Oh, I understand that

I'm just saying that the far left can be just as dangerous as the far right.

[bvar22]

313. I don't know of ANY True Communists or Bolsheviks.....

...who post at DU.
THAT would be the "Far Left".

[RaleighNCDUer]

334. And that touches of definitions of 'leftist'.

I, for one, refuse to call ANY authoritarian a leftist. Authoritarian socialists do not fit my definition of the left.

[Two Americas]

178. you bet

Thank you for all of your great contributions over the years here, Lydia Leftcoast.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

179. Aw shucks!

:blush:

[GinaMaria]

181. mucho progresivo, aqui!! eom

[debbierlus]

182. ANYONE who bucks the corporatist system (even old school Republicans & Libetarians)

All are labeled left - far left by those they oppose...

They took the label of liberalism and 'left'. Through propaganda and spin, they constantly misrepresent the policies and beliefs of liberals (and anyone else who opposes them) as crazy. Loony left. Crazy left. Anti-American left. Commie left. Socialist soviet left.

Leftist liberals.

Crazy leftist liberals.

Hate them. Despise them. Don't listen to them. You will be crazy too.

And, people bought it.

[fascisthunter]

199. I really think that is changing

it's only natural that in tough times people socialize. It's instinctive.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

186. A few thoughts

At this point in the American political scene most of what passes for "acceptable" political ideology is in fact very far to the right. This is one of the geniuses of a very well orchestrated campaign over the last 60 years to characterize such "radical" ideas as social well-being as being on the "far left" and things such as corporate largesse as being "practical politics."

Another thing to consider is how very narrow is the discussion in the American political arena both in mainstream journalism and all over the internet. So when people hear ideas such as "single-payer health care" e.g. it seems to them a very unusual thought to consider that this is something the rest of the industrialized world takes for granted and the very fact that no politician of national prominence would even bring such a thing to the attention of the country on an ongoing basis simply shows how extreme is our government.

You are really not far left as all you are asking for is policies that benefit people. If that is "far left" then that is what we should all strive for. You are simply asking for common decency as far as I can tell and at this point that is not on the agenda of any significant bloc of elected officials in this country.

The government of the USA is a wholly owned subsidiary that represents the monied class. I'm not sure how anyone can believe otherwise unless they identify with those monied classes and have vested interests in protecting them.

K&R

[byeya]

190. One very small point to illustrate what O_G said: In Europe, most

unemployed people live better than those with jobs in the USA.
Asking, much less demanding, for universal health care; job safety; clean water; safe food; affordable{or free} education should not be considered a left position on a par with right wing special interests that enrich the few and beggar the many.
Thanks for the well written and thoughtout post.

[G_j]

194. very well said

in one sense it basically comes down to how principled one is in sticking to their demands for decency, fairness and compassion.

It's a mean-sprited society that tries to write this off as loony, unpatriotic, whatever..

[Jackpine Radical]

188. Stand up, Lydia. Face south.

I'm about 90 miles to your left. Literally. (Hah!)

[bluescribbler]

191. Love Me, Love Me, Love Me, I'm a Liberal

Thanks to Phil Ochs.

[tbyg52]

193. Here! nt

[whathehell]

196. You betcha!

[ProgressIn2008]

197. Proud radical here. Standing with you. nt

[Skittles]

200. you know I am, Lydia

yes MA'AM

[WillyT]

202. I'm With Ya Lydia !!! - K & R !!!

:bounce::hi::bounce:

:hippie:

[donheld]

204. Indeed!

[RoccoR5955]

205. There is no real "Left" in this country any more...

...if there was, they would be calling for socializing the banks, healthcare, and putting an end to the military/industrial and prison/police/industrial complexes. If there was a REAL left in this country, they would be demanding an end to corporate welfare, and corporations being treated as people. If there was any real left, we would demand a return to a government of, for, and by WE THE PEOPLE!

If this makes me far left, than so be it. I am what I am, and that's all that I yam! I am who I am, and neither proud nor ashamed of it, but I sure as hell will NEVER believe that corporations are people, and will NEVER compromise this.

[Two Americas]

258. I am

I am calling for socializing the banks, healthcare, and putting an end to the military/industrial and prison/police/industrial complexes and demanding an end to corporate welfare, and corporations being treated as people.

But you are right. There is no Left in this country, let alone "far Left."

Now....

With all of the great people on this thread, I have a question.

Why don't we start a Left?

[RoccoR5955]

288. Sounds like a plan to me.

Wanna start something? I'm game!

[Jackpine Radical]

320. Damn, I'm glad to see a fellow centrist on this board.

Hell yeah, nationalize all those things that are either prone to monopoly or essential to national well-being. Banks, energy companies, health care financing. Build a publicly owned green infrastructure of high-speed rail, solar & wind power, put university researchers to work on alternative fuels, putting their findings into the public domain....Those are good, solid, middle-of-the road ideas, to my way of thinking.

[bertman]

206. With you now and for the last 40 years!!! Proud to be a bleeding-heart, tree hugger.

[Maat]

207. Proud far-leftie right here ...

:patriot:

[kestrel91316]

210. I'm a true blue leftie!!

[Generator]

211. For God's sake people doncha know they are writing down

your names! I'm kidding, I think.

I never used to be far left-but years here made me that way. I actually was forced to pay attention. So by many on this so called Democratic liberal board-I am far left. Against torture and war and lies and not apologetic even if it comes from a nice looking and smart one who is one of ours.

[Greyhound]

269. You are the reason many of us post here.

Speaking for myself, I realize that the self-labeled "pragmatists, centrists, moderates" are simply less extreme republiks that are not comfortable with what the republik party has morphed into, but in their hearts they wish to maintain this inequitable system because they believe themselves to be better and imagine they will "achieve the success" that such an abhorrent system dangles. You can see a few of them on this thread and there is no reaching them as their minds have ossified.

I write to support those that agree, because we all need to know we are not alone, and to possibly influence the majority that read these threads but do not engage, those seeking to learn or understand, and also those that wish to genuinely discuss ideas.

Thanks for being here.

[Bluzmann57]

212. Hip Hip Hooray!

I'm with you. Damn proud to be a lefty.

[Glorfindel]

215. Oh, yes...I'm a "Social Democrat"

about as far left as it's possible to be.

[AndrewP]

217. I am far left!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[earth mom]

218. Far leftie here-time to kick some right wing a$$!

:kick:

[clyrc]

219. Oh yes, me too

I'm pretty much delurking to proclaim it! No surprise that some of my favorite DUers have chimed in.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

221. I bet living overseas gives you a special perspective

:hi:

[BlueJac]

220. yo!

[JerseygirlCT]

222. Me too.

Doesn't bother me in the least.

[NorthCarolina]

223. Move over Gandhi, I'm to the left of you...and PROUD n/t

[Canuckistanian]

224. The right/left "goalposts" have been shifting rightwards for YEARS

Believe me, some of America's "left-leaning" politicians would be considered RW nutjobs in Canada.

[chill_wind]

243. LOL! Like this one?

"Rahm Emanuel is a Hard-Core Liberal."

http://www.ontheissues.org/IL/Rahm_Emanuel.htm

Compared to me, I've always half-seriously regarded him as a closet Republican. Who makes up these tests down here?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

225. I'm far left by U.S. standards, and normal left by European standards nt

[omega minimo]

229. you probably want to "look backward" instead of sweep How We Got Here under the rug!!1!

:thumbsup:

[CLANG]

231. Proud? Everything else is a shame.

I don't go for left right or center, just right and wrong. Coincidentally, right just happens to be left most of the time and far left the rest.

[bridgit]

232. I'm an American, so when Obama says America's going to fix this and emerge stronger than before?

I'm good with that :kick:

[marew]

233. ABSOLUTELY!

[NoSheep]

236. Very far and damn proud.

[omega minimo]

238. you mean you're standing next to a DINO?

:yoiks:

[Muttocracy]

247. another "embarrassingly liberal" one here! (wish I had one of those Wellstone buttons) nt

[bvar22]

248. Thank You, LL, for a very revealing thread.

It started innocently enough.
A simple thread for Liberal Democrats to support each other.

What happened next was a very revealing expose of the agenda of a handful of posters at DU.


Their "Centrist" politics has been proved successful ONLY at further enriching the RICH and moving the political center further to the RIGHT.

Their tactic is to disrupt, NOT to add counterpoint.

Their goal is exactly what you stated in your OP:
"just continue a milder form of the Republicans' policies and compromise with them at every turn, no matter who gets hurt."

Why else would a handful of persistent posters work so hard to disrupt this simple thread? :shrug:

In my opinion, you gave them and their failed ideology too much dignity by even attempting to hold a conversation with them.


"Centrism"...because it is so EASY.
You don't have to STAND for ANYTHING, and get to insult those who do!


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[scarletwoman]

250. Thank you, Lydia. I will proudly stand with you. You're a treasure, and one of the best DUers EVER!

One of the things I love best about this thread is how well it highlights the cravenness of the detractors of the left. The ranting of assholes -- very odorous. :P

:loveya:
sw

[Lydia Leftcoast]

256. Once again, aw shucks!

:blush:

Well, I guess I'm just steeped in the good old Minnesota DFL populist tradition.

[scarletwoman]

257. We come from good stock, and a proud tradition.

:D

[Two Americas]

351. DFL

The DFL is a model that could be duplicated in every state.

[scarletwoman]

373. What's interesting is that the MN Democratic party wouldn't have survived if they hadn't allied

with the Farmer-Laborites. Had that not happened, the Socialists might have ended up as one of the two major parties (with the Republicans being the other) instead. It's a fascinating history -- much of it due to the heavy Scandinavian heritage in Minnesota.

sw

[Juche]

264. Be proud of the heritage

Progressives, liberals and the far left (same thing) have fought to give this country and the world an abolishment to child labor, jim crow, slavery & unrepresentative government. We fought for women's suffrage, social security, medicare, medicaid, consumer protections, human rights in our foreign policy, anti-poverty agendas & civil rights.

And now we fight for universal healthcare, energy independence, clean energy, labor reform, paid vacations and sick days for all, gay rights, an end to global poverty (living on less than $2/day), science.

The radical conservatives who want us to be ashamed of our heritage generally opposed each of these accomplishments.

I don't know about you but I'm real fucking ashamed when radical right wingers use 'liberal' as an insult.

[orleans]

266. totally with you, lydia. k&r n/t

[carnie_sf]

268. Damn straight

I'm as left wing as they come, and proud to be a California liberal

[Sunnyshine]

270. I see myself/others as "fair" on basic issues.

Glad to be with you and all "far left" Americans who warned the sleeping public of the coming waves of crisis.

Militant groups are labeled as "far leftist" or "far rightist"- meaning these terms are obscure and are often misused.
In that instance, those words do not honestly reflect the average profile of a progressive liberal in America.
I think Left/Right comparisons are mostly false dilemmas. That is just how I see it personally.

To me- I am just a compassionate and fair minded human doing.

k-n-r

[Fedja]

272. The scale is rigged.

Over in the ole EU, we look at the Democratic party as a mild conservative movement. At the best of times, they flirt with centrist ideas.

Liberal political conviction was labeled "socialism" in the US a long time ago, and we all know "socialism" is a curse word. Amirite? Anyone acknowledging much of what the GOP has been dishing out in the recent years is flirting with extremes borrowed from theocracy and feudalism. Perhaps they reflect the technological advances of the modern age, but the philosophical premises are borrowed from the 13th century.

Hope you find your way to the center as a collective, and clear your sight enough to see both the left and the right end of the specter. Only then can informed decisions be made.

[Lucian]

273. So am I!

[hardtoport]

274. K&R

:kick:

[Brucie Kibbutz]

275. proud lefty

:hi:

[Norrin Radd]

276. Me too! Though I like to refer to it as

"true left."

[New Dawn]

277. K&R

[HughBeaumont]

278. YARP.

Anyone who thinks the middle/working/poor classes don't drive an economy are going to see how far they and "their" economy will get even without a fraction of our spending money.

I think it was said on here before: "If Republicans hate Communism and socialism SO much, then why are they trying to revive the sort of economic system/climate that LED to their CREATION?"

[Optical.Catalyst]

279. No compromise with the Reich Wing

We have the votes in the House of Representatives

We have the votes in the Senate

We own the Executive Branch

Now is the time to crush the Republicans once and for all.

[stuntcat]

280. me too!!!!!

I thousandth this :headbang:

I felt so much PRIDE last night. Proud I helped elect Obama, proud for being a Democrat all my life. Proud of never putting greed or religion or rich old men above the Environment or the Poor. I also should have held a little flag to wave last night because I don't remember ever being this proud to be an American before!!!! :patriot:

[placton]

281. socialism = pragmatism n/t

[harun]

284. I am.

[TheUnspeakable]

285. I couldn't be prouder!!

a few years ago, I was having a political chat with a ditto-head, and when I said I was a liberal-the look of absolute shock on his face!! I think he had never heard someone admit that! It was great

[proud2BlibKansan]

286. Count me in.

[Senator]

287. The Alternative Is Joining The Torture Team...

...as accessories after-the-fact.

And no, we don't have the moral right to torture our way out of economic trouble.

Any other "higher priorities?"

--

[LWolf]

289. I always have been, of course.

What are you defining as "far left?"

I suspect this may be a response to something that someone said, that I wasn't listening to, lol.

[AmyCamus]

291. I liked Obama when he was anti-war.

A week before he announced his run for President, he introduced a bill to pull all our troops out of Iraq by March. By March 2008. I liked that. But he took his bill back to his committee and never put it up for a vote. His 'anti-war' far left position was just a pose.
So don't give me any of your "he's doing what he said he'd do all along" bullshit.

[TBF]

297. Yes, he fooled me with that too. But to be fair I really wasn't paying

much attention to politics. Just heard him saying "anti-war" things and became interested again. Like many I suppose... and then all of a sudden he had the nomination and there was no more anti-war talk.

[AmyCamus]

367. "I was against this war from the start!"

Yup, we should've known that meant "But I'll keep Bush's War going anyways!"

[Proud_Lefty]

292. My name here answers that question

I still wonder what it will take for these people on the right to open their eyes. :shrug:

[YOY]

295. It's amazing how they have redefined "right"/"left" since Reagan.

It's time to take it back.

[TBF]

296. Can you believe it's been nearly 30 years since Reagan took office?

I was a freshman in high school. We've largely lost at least one generation, but maybe the kids will listen.

[Buzz Clik]

298. I find the "far left" on the board to be paranoid, angry, irrational, and delusional.

Just an observation.

:shrug:

[TBF]

301. Dunno about delusional, but yeah lies will make you angry. Especially

when they are costing people their lives.

[Two Americas]

378. OK

Please point out where I - as one of the "far left" on the board you are smearing - was ever paranoid, angry, irrational, and delusional. Or show me where Lydia ever was. Or hundreds of others - the best and the brightest members here.

Thanks.

Certainly it is true that anyone who expresses an even mildly left wing point of view here is liable to be called "paranoid, angry, irrational, and delusional." That does not make it so.

Those are just my observations. Care to debate the validity of your character assassination of hundreds of brilliant and committed DUers?

[Moochy]

299. K&R

Why would anyone side with the street-thug tactics of forceful "moderates" here?

[RedCloud]

304. Radix!

Yes! The radicals are the answer!

n. pl. rad·i·ces (rād'ĭ-sēz', rā'dĭ-) or ra·dix·es

1. Biology A root or point of origin.
2. Abbr. rad. Mathematics The base of a system of numbers, such as 2 in the binary system and 10 in the decimal system.

Let us not forget that our former country now turned Empire was forged by long haired REVOLUTIONARY dissidents who ADAMANTLY REFUSED TO WORK THROUGH THE SYSTEM and waged a bloody war of liberation against imperialist England.

Radicals, getting to the root of the problem since recorded history!


My dear Lydia,
:hi: :hug: :fistbump: :headbang: :yourock:

[jackything1]

309. here's my hat!

Yes, I am a loud and proud democratic socialist. :hippie:

[Deep13]

311. Lately, I have found that I agree with the so-called far left. nt

[norepubsin08]

312. ME TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ooglymoogly]

314. If you consider the truth "center" then the "left" is center.

The pukes have, with the help of their propaganda arm the corpmedia have drummed it into our heads that the truth is far left and the lying pugs are "center" and calling themselves left of puke center which is propaganda on steroids.

[T Wolf]

315. Are right and left defined by the relative position compared to the population as a whole? Or is

it defined by the values and views held?

I would assert the latter.

It is "leftish" to be supportive of equal rights - it is right-wing to oppose equal rights. It is moderate to support equal rights for some ("worthy") groups. No matter what the concensus/average/mean currently is, those facts do not change.

Discussion of political viability of any position should not enter the definition.

And, in case there is any doubt, I consider myself leftish because I think those values are "better" than those of the right, or the middle. The fact that I do not think this nation, as presently configured, will ever become a liberal one does not change my views.

[BobRossi]

316. Amen! Enough with this DINO shit already.

Get the fuck out of Afghanistan and Iraq, screw Free Trade, screw the banks (trickle up is the only way).

[xxqqqzme]

321. Haven't move an inch.

In fact, I was once just left, but the last 8 years moved the center to the extreme right. So now, even tho I haven't moved. I am now considered 'far' left.

To paraphrase - I'm still left, it's the politics that got small (& petty).

[dflprincess]

322. I like to say I belong to the Farmer-Labor wing of the DFL (eom)

[Political_Junkie]

324. Here with ya!

:hi: Hope I'm not too late for the party.

[RaleighNCDUer]

325. As one who breaks into hysterical laughter whenever some Faux News

bubblehead describes Nancy Pelosi as "far left"

I'm right there with you.

[Dukkha]

327. far left is the ONLY left

in America if you're a 'moderate' you are on the right

[NuttyFluffers]

333. of course! i'm with the side that has seen the truth most clearly and consistently!

like someone here said again, "hippies v. status quo, 3000 to 0; someone should call the game at some point." how often does one need people looking at them waiting with a sad patient look, repeating "told you so," before they get it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

335. Wow, I never expected this many people to chime in

(Thanks to the naysayers for keeping the thread kicked, by the way.) :evilgrin:

Let's remember that it's always been the pushy, obnoxious, unrealistic, impractical, fringe people that initiate change.

I could speak of the women's suffrage movement, the civil rights movement, and the anti-Vietnam War or anti-intervention movements. I'm old enough to remember when only a few weirdos were against the Vietnam War, because naturally, everyone was anti-Communist, and I traveled through the South when hotels and restaurants were segregated, but one movement that even the youngest DUers are familiar with is the GLBT rights movement.

The gains in GLBT rights that we've seen did not come about because GLBT people hid quietly in the background. No, it came about because GLBT people started revealing themselves as such, saying, in effect, "We're your family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, celebrities, and business owners. We're here. Get used to it, and stop treating us like we're evil or perverted." Some of the activists did things that were offensive. They made demands that some people thought unreasonable. But their actions drew attention to their grievances, encouraged the less militant, and most important, got people talking about the issues.

There's still a long way to go, of course, but as a result of the people who had the imagination and courage to try to change society, some states and countries recognize gay marriages, many jurisdictions have anti-discrimination laws, and many companies offer spousal benefits to same-sex partners. This has all happened in 25 years of people making "unreasonable" and "far out" demands.

There's a lot that needs changing. Let's put pressure on our elected officials to make change happen. Their natural tendency will be to maintain or patch up the status quo. They won't shake up their comfy system unless we force them to.

[ColbertWatcher]

336. Obama said something in his inagural address that explains how I feel ...

... about being a liberal:

"We will not apologize for our way of life nor will we waver in its defense."

--http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/obama_inauguration/7840646.stm">BBC

[Two Americas]

342. he also said...

"Credit is the lifeblood of our economy." That is 180 degrees from my view, and sad to say is in absolute alignment with the right wing point of view on the economy. I think that credit is the blood sucker of our economy, and recent events make that pretty clear I would think.

Most people in the general public think that the workers are the lifeblood of the economy, not the financiers. That places them far to the Left of the party politicians and their ardent defenders and supporters.

Politics is about, has always been about, power and economics. The conservative point of view is that capital is more important, the left wing point of view is that labor is more important.

Lincoln expressed the left wing position well in the excerpt below. It is the opposite position of "credit is the lifeblood of our economy."

It is not needed nor fitting here that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions, but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effort to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.

Now there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights. Nor is it denied that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital producing mutual benefits. The error is in assuming that the whole labor of community exists within that relation. A few men own capital, and that few avoid labor themselves, and with their capital hire or buy another few to labor for them. A large majority belong to neither class--neither work for others nor have others working for them. In most of the Southern States a majority of the whole people of all colors are neither slaves nor masters, while in the Northern a large majority are neither hirers nor hired. Men, with their families--wives, sons, and daughters--work for themselves on their farms, in their houses, and in their shops, taking the whole product to themselves, and asking no favors of capital on the one hand nor of hired laborers or slaves on the other. It is not forgotten that a considerable number of persons mingle their own labor with capital; that is, they labor with their own hands and also buy or hire others to labor for them; but this is only a mixed and not a distinct class. No principle stated is disturbed by the existence of this mixed class.

"Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

[ColbertWatcher]

344. I agree.

But, I think our economy is very different now than it was in Lincoln's time.

As far as what Obama said:

"Credit is the lifeblood of our economy"

"Credit" could also mean the verb credit to attribute, meaning "the lifeblood of our economy" is making sure those who've done the work are given their due.

(At least that's what I'm going to tell myself!)

[Two Americas]

346. which economy?

There are two things that are called "the economy." When the pundits talk about the economy, they mean "the well-being and happiness of the investors, speculators, manipulators, and the idle rich." Credit is the lifeblood of that economy.

The real economy is the people, working together and producing things - always was and always will be. This idea that the money people are the economy is very modern, and should be seen by everyone now as a hustle and a rip off, and as a threat to our very existence.

The Wall Street crowd has the people convinced that THEY are the economy, that they produce something, that without them there would be no money and no jobs. Jobs and wealth and prosperity and work all existed long, long before there was Wall Street or credit or a financial industry. It is all a big fat lie. It is extortion - highway robbery. "surrender to us, or you will be REALLY miserable. We will make sure of that."

They take the wealth that the people produce, hoard it, and then loan it back to them at usury rates. They rake off most of the value and pocket it. How is that an "economy" and where are they "producing" anything? You don't need to be "far left" to see through that, you just need a brain in your head that functions somewhat.

[RaleighNCDUer]

345. Lifeblood needs both veins and arteries.

The workers are the arteries, and commercial credit (which enables businesses to capitalize) are the veins (or visa versa). It is consumer credit which is the bane of modern life.

We need to differentiate between the ability of a business to get credit, to be able to get going and afford the large outlays necessary, and the soul-stealing consumer credit of individuals borrowing for every little thing. And that is what credit cards are - when you charge a meal on your card, you are borrowing money for, and paying interest on, lunch. It is absurd.

Consumer credit should ideally be limited to big ticket essentials - houses, cars, and in an emergency, major appliances. Anything else, if you don't have the cash, don't buy it.

I agree that labor is the foundation - but if an enterprise cannot get startup capital, or falls into a business slump, then it cannot support the labor that supports it, without credit. Commercial credit has its place, but as you said, labor is foremost.

[TBF]

349. This should be an op on it's own. n/t

[leftstreet]

352. I agree

After 9/11 Bush told us to go shopping.

Global Financial 'crisis' and Obama tells us to borrow.

wtf?

This needs some discussion.

(This is also an opportunity to kick a terrific thread)

[No.23]

362. What's there to be confused about?

I don't know anyone who borrows in order to save what they've borrowed.

Most folks borrow to spend what they've borrowed.

Bush was an advocate of an economy based on consumerism.

And so is Obama, it appears.

So where's the confusion?

[leftstreet]

363. lol what are you talking about?

I'm not confused.

Yeah, the message is CONSUME.

Got it.

[No.23]

364. Sorry.

I use "WTF" mostly when I'm confused or perplexed with something or someone.

Thought you did the same.

As for both Presidents being proponents of consumption, no surprise here.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

354. My dear Lydia ((c) California Peggy)

I am more than proud to describe myself as a Scandinavian-style Democratic Socialist.

And always have been, :)

[omega minimo]

355. Anybody know what "far left" is?

[TBF]

366. Yes. May do future OP on it. In this thread most understand,

but it would be a service to the site to do a leftist vs. liberal chart.

[omega minimo]

369. so you're not going to answer my question?

From what I've seen on DU and I did not read the whole (undoubtedly well worth it when I have the time it's very long) thread, the terms have been rather -- I'll say changed, from what they commonly meant and the whole political spectrum has shifted so far to the right -- including RLite and DINO -- and recent frays on DU have been about what "centrist" means............

the whole matter seems to have become very subjective.

[TBF]

370. I agree with you and here ya go -

Here is a very well-written but condensed version from a friend of mine (for the cite pm me):

A Leftist says that the fundamental organization of our society is intolerable because it leads directly to war, poverty, oppression, and environmental destruction. The Leftist argues that a new and different framework is necessary.

A Liberal says that the basic organization of our society is reasonably good, and should therefore be accepted, and that any efforts at further improving society should come from working within the already-established framework. IOW, the liberal wants slight modifications to what already exists, believing that its basic structure is reasonably sound.

Does that jive with what you believe?

[omega minimo]

371. not quite - but thank you for that

"A Leftist says that the fundamental organization of our society is intolerable" "argues that a new and different framework is necessary."

Is that definitive?

"A Liberal says that the basic organization of our society is reasonably good, and should therefore be accepted" "the liberal wants slight modifications to what already exists, believing that its basic structure is reasonably sound."

"slight modifications"?


Somehow this sound very subjective too -- too many qualifications and assumption, sorta loaded with meaning that may not apply, if we ARE trying to be definitive.


What things really come down to at this point IMHO is whether people believe they have the power to make a difference themselves or not. Those who do -- and choose to live accordingly -- would most likely be considered "left" or "far left."

"Liberals" like to have it both ways.

IMHO.

[No.23]

358. Count me as a hybrid fringer.

Left on some issues, and libertarian on others.

My adversary is neither party, but both parties.

The two party system (AKA duopoly) is the source of much which ills us today.

I'm working towards a multiparty electoral system, with electoral reforms that level the playing field for all parties.

[Vidar]

368. Amen to that.

[Zhade]

375. We're not far left. We're yesterday's moderates.

Maoists and Stalinists, now THEY'RE far left.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

379. Of course!

If you've ever seen the Katherine Hepburn/Spencer Tracy film State of the Union, you'll know that Tracy's character, who is supposed to be a Republican, is farther to the left than the majority of Democratic politicians today.

[Prometheus Bound]

381. Nice thread. Seems you're not the 'fringe' after all.

Proud to be among you.